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Thread: Power of Clerics and Druids
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2006-08-07, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Power of Clerics and Druids
The group I usually play with is not necessarily focused on making extremely powerful characters, so I am somewhat of a noob in terms of power gaming.
On these boards I have heard of the extreme power of CoDzilla (clerics or druids, If I'm correct) and Wizards (which I think I understand the power of).
I was wondering just why Clerics and Druids are so powerful. I think that I understand why (a friend of mine likes to make druids, with some obscene wildshape options), but I want you guys' take on it.
Thanks in advance.\"Dance as if no one\'s watching, sing as if no one\'s listening, and live everyday as if it were your last.\" &&- Irish Proverb
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2006-08-07, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Here's why: clerics, through a number of spells (three primary ones, all core: Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Divine Favor) can become, essentially, as good fighters as fighters; druids are even better once they hit 5th level, as they can take on obscenely powerful forms (and buff themselves, too) that make their physical stats irrelevant, *plus* have animal companions for added melee presence.
This is despite the fact that they can (with Natural Spell, also core, for Druids) spellcast as the full spellcasters they are while doing so--and spellcasting is more powerful than melee, in D&D, after the first few levels.
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2006-08-07, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
The druid is powerful because the animal companion is already a rather good melee combatant, and with wildshape and natural spell the druid can easily get substantially better at melee than a fighter is. Also, consider something like beads of karma, hierophant levels, and shapechange. That gets really nasty, really quick.
The cleric is powerful because they can be made as good at smashing things as a fighter with just one round of buffing at most levels; *and* they have full spellcasting. There's also a lot of individual cleric cheese, e.g. consumptive field + beads of karma + hierophant levels + divine spell power + (any of the word spells) allows you to kill someone not of your alignment with no save, provided they're only 3 or 4 hit dice higher than you."TORONTO. CANADA. Which is, despite common belief, NORTH of you."-Abd Al-Azrad
"Sadly, Thray has a point."-The Glyphstone, who is NOT a cad
"Thray wins. at the internet." Rama Lei
"It's only confusing if you don't get it."-Thomas
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2006-08-07, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
I know Clerics pretty well and they rock for multiple reasons. First off, you can almost literally be a tank. Encase yourself in Heavy Armor and a Sheild and you are almost untouchable. On top of that you get spells. GOOD SPELLS. The domains of a cleric (if played right) can get you some pretty powerful damage spells. Couple with that healing, as well as the option to boost you BAB up to that of a fighter, you've got great spells. And if you take the War domain you get free weapon focus, as well as the ability to use the weapon for free.
Plus, the party loves you 'cuz you heal.
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2006-08-07, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Originally Posted by GunslingerAd maiorem Dei gloriam.
Thanks to Ceika for the great avatar.
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2006-08-07, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Umm, Genome--we're talking about 3.5, not 2nd edition.
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2006-08-07, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Originally Posted by The Logic Ninja
*Summons Yuki Akuma*"TORONTO. CANADA. Which is, despite common belief, NORTH of you."-Abd Al-Azrad
"Sadly, Thray has a point."-The Glyphstone, who is NOT a cad
"Thray wins. at the internet." Rama Lei
"It's only confusing if you don't get it."-Thomas
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2006-08-07, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Originally Posted by Electric_Bard
Maybe a combat oriented cleric (the question is what deity?) with Smiting Spell from Complete Divine and Inflict spells to smite my enemies.
Thanks for the advice so far guys!
\"Dance as if no one\'s watching, sing as if no one\'s listening, and live everyday as if it were your last.\" &&- Irish Proverb
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2006-08-07, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
^^^ I think it was sarcasm...
Any level 13 cleric with standard wealth by level and a couple of feats from Complete Divine can pretty much 1 shot any number of creatures who's allighnments dosn't perfectly match that of the cleric. On top of that, they can extended mass buff the whole party into becoming almost 2x the ability they have, for pretty much the whole day. Pretty broken when played with the right combination of feats/gear.
PS, Genome, I love your Avatar!!!! SoM 4tw
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2006-08-07, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Originally Posted by Gunslinger
Otherwise, anything with the war and planning domains works."TORONTO. CANADA. Which is, despite common belief, NORTH of you."-Abd Al-Azrad
"Sadly, Thray has a point."-The Glyphstone, who is NOT a cad
"Thray wins. at the internet." Rama Lei
"It's only confusing if you don't get it."-Thomas
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2006-08-07, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
And a deity like that would be located in the Complete Warrior. Do you or your friends have a copy?
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2006-08-07, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Oh, hey, my favorite topic came around again!
CodZilla may well be real when all the splatbooks are dropped in the cauldron and the cheesiest combos are allowed to float to the top. I wouldn't know, I play in core-only games.
In terms of core-only, I've never seen any substantiation that the divine casters are in any way overpowered. They are certainly among the strongest characters since they tend to fight almost as well as the fighters plus add healing and some nice offensive spells into the mix.
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2006-08-07, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Fighting almost as well as fighters AND full spellcasting doesn't strike you as overpowered?
We've had this discussion repeatedly, but to the OP: Kraaze is in the minority--and the majority includes people on the Character Optimization boards, which know a hell of a lot about this sort of thing.
Core-only, the gap between CoDzilla and other classes (except wizards) is just as big as ever. A core-only fighter, for example, can't do effective battlefield control, only bashing things--which CoDzilla does better, and gets full spellcasting.
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2006-08-07, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Originally Posted by Electric_Bard
Who is this warrior deity of whom you speak? (If you know.)\"Dance as if no one\'s watching, sing as if no one\'s listening, and live everyday as if it were your last.\" &&- Irish Proverb
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2006-08-07, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Originally Posted by Kraaze
Obviously your clerics dont take quicken spell and your druids dont take natural spell.
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2006-08-07, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
The Red Knight (Forgotten Realms) has War and Planning, being the goddess of tactics, but her favored weapon is the longsword. I believe Comp. Warrior grants it to Heironeous.
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2006-08-07, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Just no. I can't have this fight again. Kraaze, we need to start seeing other people. We just don't understand each other. It's not you, it's the cleric and druid's ability to fill two archetypical roles simultaneously as well as those they replace. It is tearing us appart.
I made you this mix tape of songs that describe exactly how I feel. Included are such tracks as "OMG I'm a Full Caster and Tank (and You Aren't)", "People Who Aren't Like Me (Die In One Spell)" and "I'm a Giant Bear Who Casts Spells."Spoiler
Logic Ninja : Oh my god that was beautiful. Man. I... wow. This thread can be locked now, Wehrkind won it. Here
"We know Elvis is dead for any relevant values of certain." - BWL
I am now offering conversion to my Church of Stabiclese, Neutral God of Buffing Up and Whacking Things, Regardless of Facing. All those who love either "Buffing Up" or "Whacking Things" and don't particularly care about which direction the target is facing at the time are welcome!
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2006-08-07, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Originally Posted by Wehrkind
Bwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha. Bwahahaha. Haaaaaa.
Oh my god that was beautiful. Man. I... wow. This thread can be locked now, Wehrkind won it.
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2006-08-07, 11:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
*Flex*
That is definitely going in my signature. I probably should also make a copy of my post, since I will probably never be that entertaining at midnight at work ever again.Spoiler
Logic Ninja : Oh my god that was beautiful. Man. I... wow. This thread can be locked now, Wehrkind won it. Here
"We know Elvis is dead for any relevant values of certain." - BWL
I am now offering conversion to my Church of Stabiclese, Neutral God of Buffing Up and Whacking Things, Regardless of Facing. All those who love either "Buffing Up" or "Whacking Things" and don't particularly care about which direction the target is facing at the time are welcome!
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2006-08-08, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
I agree, you must copy/link to the post itself in the sig as well. Not that anyone needed me to say that. Anyway, I just wanted to comment on: wow, I just looked at the divine metamagic errata, and you can alter a spell to a higher level than you can cast, holy crap. The incantrix's instant metamagic can't even do that. As has been said before, wizards really needs to playtest with people who know how to cheese up.
Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2006-08-08, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Good idea. So good that I have very little clue on how to carry it out... I don't remember how to do that. Little help?
Spoiler
Logic Ninja : Oh my god that was beautiful. Man. I... wow. This thread can be locked now, Wehrkind won it. Here
"We know Elvis is dead for any relevant values of certain." - BWL
I am now offering conversion to my Church of Stabiclese, Neutral God of Buffing Up and Whacking Things, Regardless of Facing. All those who love either "Buffing Up" or "Whacking Things" and don't particularly care about which direction the target is facing at the time are welcome!
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2006-08-08, 03:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Further proof druids are over-powered: they can create their own girlfriends.
Druid in bear shape. Bear animal companion. Awaken bear. Get introduced to bear's parents. Have little were-bear cubs. Make your parents cry.Spoiler
Logic Ninja : Oh my god that was beautiful. Man. I... wow. This thread can be locked now, Wehrkind won it. Here
"We know Elvis is dead for any relevant values of certain." - BWL
I am now offering conversion to my Church of Stabiclese, Neutral God of Buffing Up and Whacking Things, Regardless of Facing. All those who love either "Buffing Up" or "Whacking Things" and don't particularly care about which direction the target is facing at the time are welcome!
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2006-08-08, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Not even going to consider the mechanics of that...
"Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
-Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion
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2006-08-08, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Yea, that definitely raises some wierd possibilities. Even beyond the obvious "I wildshape into a sexual predator." jokes...
Now we know where furries come from.Spoiler
Logic Ninja : Oh my god that was beautiful. Man. I... wow. This thread can be locked now, Wehrkind won it. Here
"We know Elvis is dead for any relevant values of certain." - BWL
I am now offering conversion to my Church of Stabiclese, Neutral God of Buffing Up and Whacking Things, Regardless of Facing. All those who love either "Buffing Up" or "Whacking Things" and don't particularly care about which direction the target is facing at the time are welcome!
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2006-08-08, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
wehrkind you are now my hero
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2006-08-08, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Twice in the same day. Wow. Check these out for your referencing pleasure.
Originally Posted by Azrael
EDIT: In all seriousness, read the first thread that was linked. All 8 pages. Now.
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2006-08-08, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2006-08-08, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Originally Posted by Azrael
Ha! Godwin's D&D law has been fulfilled. This topic is now officially dead! Victory is mine! Mwahahahahahaha!
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2006-08-08, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2006-08-08, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power of Clerics and Druids
Pun-pun doesn't kill threads. There are plenty of threads that lived long, happy lives after mentioning pun-pun. Especially if only in passing. ;)
The Future just ain’t what it used to be.