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Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Don't forget Shiba Protector. The first-level ability adds an untyped bonus equal to your Wis bonus to all attacks and damage. With Insightful Strike you're getting Wis to AC, 2x Wis to attack, Wis to damage, and an extra Wis to damage with your favored disciplines' strikes.
Kind of annoying feat prereqs, but very worthwhile if you can manage it.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benly
Don't forget Shiba Protector. The first-level ability adds an untyped bonus equal to your Wis bonus to all attacks and damage. With Insightful Strike you're getting Wis to AC, 2x Wis to attack, Wis to damage, and an extra Wis to damage with your favored disciplines' strikes.
Kind of annoying feat prereqs, but very worthwhile if you can manage it.
Combat Expertise (and the natural follow-up, Imp. Trip) can be picked up with a monk dip without needing int, and Imp. Trip is pretty snazzy with, say, setting sun maneuvers.
Iron Will can be gained by wrestling with otyughs in their hole (magical location from Complete Scoundrel).
Alertness is still mostly wasted, but meh.
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Originally Posted by subject42
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Originally Posted by Yukitsu
I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Leaping flame shouldn't be cyan, it requires you to teleport next to the attacker, not just anywhere you want within the range,
Aldo, you need to do a spell check, a lot of the colors are wrong, you listed maneuvers as black, quick to act as gold, and bonesplitting strike as red. Those are all wrong, and I'm pretty sure there are some others that are wrong.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenish
Combat Expertise (and the natural follow-up, Imp. Trip) can be picked up with a monk dip without needing int, and Imp. Trip is pretty snazzy with, say, setting sun maneuvers.
Iron Will can be gained by wrestling with otyughs in their hole (magical location from Complete Scoundrel).
Alertness is still mostly wasted, but meh.
Some GMs take issue with using Otyugh Hole for prereqs, so ymmv there. Improved Trip is nice if you've got the feats for it - mostly I'm just kvetching because I've been trying to cram Shiba Protector and Master of Nine into the same build. So feat-hungry!
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
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Originally Posted by Benly
Some GMs take issue with using Otyugh Hole for prereqs, so ymmv there.
Meh, point out it's not Incantrix you're going for, and all those other feats required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benly
Improved Trip is nice if you've got the feats for it
You can grab that second level of monk for that. Evasion earlier isn't bad either.
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Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus
Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
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Originally Posted by subject42
This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukitsu
I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenish
You can grab that second level of monk for that. Evasion earlier isn't bad either.
Like I said, if you've got the feats for it. I sort of class "enough wiggle room to pick up a class with more bonus feats" under having the feats for it. If you're just going with Shiba Protector, you probably will, but if you're like me and trying to cram in multiple high-req PrCs, three feats for that one-level dip is pretty hungry. If you're not doing crazy things like that, Improved Trip makes Combat Expertise feel considerably more worthwhile, I agree.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benly
Don't forget Shiba Protector. The first-level ability adds an untyped bonus equal to your Wis bonus to all attacks and damage. With Insightful Strike you're getting Wis to AC, 2x Wis to attack, Wis to damage, and an extra Wis to damage with your favored disciplines' strikes.
Insightful Strike replaces all damage bonuses regardless of source with a Concentration check (which is based on Constitution not Wisdom) so I'm not sure why you're calling it out for special mention with your combo.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfire
Insightful Strike replaces all damage bonuses regardless of source with a Concentration check (which is based on Constitution not Wisdom) so I'm not sure why you're calling it out for special mention with your combo.
I think he means that swordsage class feature where you add your wis to damage with maneuvers from a certain school. I forget the name.
[Edit]: It's called Insightful Strike. Fancy that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus
Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subject42
This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukitsu
I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Actually, I meant Intuitive Attack (BoED, Wis to attack roll) but was getting all these things jumbled together. In my defense, I've been staring at maneuver selection for a level 15 gestalt swordsage/shiba//warblade/Mo9 all dang day and my brain is fried.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenish
I think he means that swordsage class feature where you add your wis to damage with maneuvers from a certain school. I forget the name.
[Edit]: It's called Insightful Strike. Fancy that.
Probably the source of the Confusion.
Now if we add the Gauntlets of Heartfelt blow (those items from Dragon Mag) it gives you Cha modifier as fire damage to your attacks, if there is a way to add Con we have use every score for dealing damage. To Person_Man's lists!!
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Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
I think a changeling warshaper wouldn't really work. It couldn't take advantage of the infinite natural attacks very well, since there isn't many boosts or other abilitys that work with full attacks.
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Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazzardevil
I think a changeling warshaper wouldn't really work. It couldn't take advantage of the infinite natural attacks very well, since there isn't many boosts or other abilitys that work with full attacks.
You don't need to do anything else to take advantage of infinite natural attacks. You just get in range and declare "I win".
Now, no one is going to allow you infinite natural weapons from warshaper. I usually houserule it to one additional natural weapon.
Also, Warblade works a lot better for Warshaper. You qualify at 4 and both have war in their names
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by true_shinken
You don't need to do anything else to take advantage of infinite natural attacks. You just get in range and declare "I win".
Now, no one is going to allow you infinite natural weapons from warshaper. I usually houserule it to one additional natural weapon.
Also, Warblade works a lot better for Warshaper. You qualify at 4 and both have war in their names
I don't think thst Warshaper is within the scope of thuis guide. Warshaper is a prestige class that can benefit just about anything, a swordsage doesn't have a lot to gain taking it compared to something like a fighter or paladin.
If you want I can make a thread and we can debate back and forth about swordsage warshapers.
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Originally Posted by Chained Birds
Just one of those guys vs girls things. Guys like giant, fighting robots that shoot lazerz out their eyes while girls like pretty jewelry that sparkle in the moonlight after having a romantic interlude with a charming gentleman.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Why do people exclusively fixate on the infinite natural attacks glitch?
Warshaper gives you reach, fast healing, crit immunity, and +4 Str/Con in four levels. The natural attacks are a nice bonus but not even necessary for warshaper to be worthwhile. That said, mechanically there's more synergy for a crackdown warblade or crusader than for a swordsage. Thematically it can go quite nicely with Tiger Claw, though.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benly
Why do people exclusively fixate on the infinite natural attacks glitch?
Warshaper gives you reach, fast healing, crit immunity, and +4 Str/Con in four levels. The natural attacks are a nice bonus but not even necessary for warshaper to be worthwhile. That said, mechanically there's more synergy for a crackdown warblade or crusader than for a swordsage. Thematically it can go quite nicely with Tiger Claw, though.
I don't understand either. Warshaper was a common class in optimized builds back in 339 (heck, it's a part of the King of Smack) but it took years until I saw someone mentioning infinite natural attacks. It's one of those things people should ignore while doing practical optimization, because
a) it's not intended
b) it's gamebreaking
c) it's silly
I've recently seen many of similar cases being defended here in the playground. It's said to see people becomiong munchkins instead of optimizers.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Did this handbook re-die?
If not, might I suggest Sun School as a light blue candidate for unarmed swordsages? It becomes much better than if you were a monk because you have technically INFINITE teleports and can flurry as a standard action(flashing Sun). It gives minor distance control(always good for a swordsage) and pretty much gives a free attack with shadow blink and leaping flame(making the later pretty awesome as it ENSURES anyone who attacks you at range is practically giving you a free attack, two when combined with snapkick, AND depositing you right next to him).
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Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcielle
Did this handbook re-die?
If not, might I suggest Sun School as a light blue candidate for unarmed swordsages? It becomes much better than if you were a monk because you have technically INFINITE teleports and can flurry as a standard action(flashing Sun). It gives minor distance control(always good for a swordsage) and pretty much gives a free attack with shadow blink and leaping flame(making the later pretty awesome as it ENSURES anyone who attacks you at range is practically giving you a free attack, two when combined with snapkick, AND depositing you right next to him).
The problem is getting Flurry of Blows, which I don't believe Unarmed Swordsages get. Flashing Sun may act like Flurry but it isn't actually Flurry. Otherwise, yes, Sun School would be lovely for an US, especially with Falling Star Strike, though it looks rather like it's the territory of Tashalatora.
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Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
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Originally Posted by Cieyrin
The problem is getting Flurry of Blows, which I don't believe Unarmed Swordsages get. Flashing Sun may act like Flurry but it isn't actually Flurry. Otherwise, yes, Sun School would be lovely for an US, especially with Falling Star Strike, though it looks rather like it's the territory of Tashalatora.
This could be solved by dipping one level of monk, could it not? The redundancy is bad, but it lets you flurry.
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Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
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Originally Posted by Tvtyrant
This could be solved by dipping one level of monk, could it not? The redundancy is bad, but it lets you flurry.
You could but the guide is about Swordsages, is it not? If we want to get into what multiclassing helps a prospective Swordsage, then yes, a level or two dip in monk could work well. It's just the feat isn't feasible if you want to go straight Swordsage.
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Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Many guides include at least a blurb about multiclassing and considering how friendly is ToB to multiclassing so putting a note that Dipping monk is not a bad idea for a sworsage, due the bonus feats and access to some really nifty feats is not out of question IMHO
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Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
I just want to say that this guide, as well as the other guide to warblades has been very helpful. I'm still working on developing my char, but cheers for all this help!
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Well, I'm thinking more lenient DMs might let it slide since it's not broken good after all, just helpful for getting in more attacks and avoiding full attacks from opponents without reach. I realise it wouldn't fly in a low OP though.
That said, monk is generally a good 1-2 level dip for any full melee because of the bonus feats. If you are allowed extrapolate an Ascetic feat, a dash of monk is really quite good for a normal swordsage. Even without it, it at least gets you into Mo9 a tad easier.
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Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcielle
Well, I'm thinking more lenient DMs might let it slide since it's not broken good after all, just helpful for getting in more attacks and avoiding full attacks from opponents without reach. I realise it wouldn't fly in a low OP though.
That's houserule territory. This is handbook is about RAW.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose
That's houserule territory. This is handbook is about RAW.
Derp.
Fine, RAW version should go: 1-2 level monk dip for IUS, combat reflexes and DOUBLE untyped Wis bonus to touch AC when unarmored(say goodbye to rays). Sunschool, snapkick and teleport for free attacks, then flurry, push enemy back, 5 ft step back.
Not really sure if you can teleport then 5 foot step though. If you can't, then just use a strike.
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Last edited by marcielle : 08-07-2011 at 08:51 PM.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcielle
Derp.
Fine, RAW version should go: 1-2 level monk dip for IUS, combat reflexes and DOUBLE untyped Wis bonus to touch AC when unarmored(say goodbye to rays). Sunschool, snapkick and teleport for free attacks, then flurry, push enemy back, 5 ft step back.
Not really sure if you can teleport then 5 foot step though. If you can't, then just use a strike.
Wis to Ac from Monk and Swordsage don't stack as they are both called AC Bonus
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Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
I sort of class "enough wiggle room to pick up a class with more bonus feats" under having the feats for it. If you're just going with Shiba Protector, you probably will, but if you're like me and trying to cram in multiple high-req PrCs, three feats for that one-level dip is pretty hungry. If you're not doing crazy things like that, Improved Trip makes Combat Expertise feel considerably more worthwhile, I agree.
Re: Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook [Under Construction again]
