General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

[The Rose Dragon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

Yes, the Immaculate Dragon styles were created by Anys Syn shortly after the Usurpation to help the DBs hunt down Anathema.

They were designed to discipline spirits, not hunt down Anathema. That's why the current enlightenment paradigm requires two Charms that allow you to perceive and hurt dematerialized creatures.

[Tavar]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

Pretty much zero, as Lookshy follows the Immaculate Faith. Back when the Empress first took over the Realm, one of the conditions Chejop gave in return for his support was that she make the Immaculate Faith the official, state religion, and that they would actively crusade in it's support, i.e. keep the Wyld Hunt going. Lookshy does not have that same actively crusading philosophy for a number of reasons, mainly pragmatism, but they still think OMG ITS TEH ANATEMAS.

Their faith is noticeably less militant about it, plus it's already canon that some Anathema do have relations with Lookshy. Also, Lookshy is anything if not practical. I'd say it's possible, though theirs going to be a fair amount of waryness, at least until the celestials mind-rape prove themselves to him.

[DeadManSleeping]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

Pretty much zero, as Lookshy follows the Immaculate Faith. Back when the Empress first took over the Realm, one of the conditions Chejop gave in return for his support was that she make the Immaculate Faith the official, state religion, and that they would actively crusade in it's support, i.e. keep the Wyld Hunt going. Lookshy does not have that same actively crusading philosophy for a number of reasons, mainly pragmatism, but they still think OMG ITS TEH ANATEMAS.

Originally Posted by Compass of Terrestrial Directions I page 56

While the Solar Exalted are not hunted
or shunned in Lookshy, their arrival is not considered good
news. Peaceable Anathema have come to Lookshy and found
cordial accommodations for the length of their visits, but
their unpredictability combined with the raw power at their
disposal makes them diffi cult to befriend.

With the possible exception of some radicals in the city who want to go back to the Immaculate way of doing things.

[Geigan]

One thing I won't be used to starting Exalted is the setting since I'm the ST. Rather more accurate is to say that I have a setting that the book describes and I actually have to use that specific setting. Like a I said before is I play D&D and I typically ignore pretty much all of the text relating to setting if I'm DMing. It's not exactly a bad feeling as I can still make up stuff if I want and I certainly find most of it interesting anyway. My question is how far does your typical ST veer from the written setting. For instance, I don't like the Lookshy Earth house's description so I'm probably going to rewrite it and never look back for my game unless I feel the need to revise it(more likely expand upon). How often do you come across something you don't like in the setting and would you change it for your own game?

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by Geigan

How often do you come across something you don't like in the setting and would you change it for your own game?

Every now and then, I come across stuff I don't like; I either try and refluff it, or change it altogether. For the most part, I go with the first of the two.

[DragonSinged]

Personally, I find that there is so much of the setting that has been left vague and up to the ST to define that there's not a lot of reason to change the things that have been established. That said, if you as the ST want to change things, that seems totally fine with me, as long as you tell your players that you will be changing things ahead of time.

You'll head off a lot of arguments that way.

[Lix Lorn]

You can do it, but make sure your players know, I think.

Thing is, no-one plays Exalted for the mechanics. xD (Well, few), so messing with the actually awesome bit, the fluff, is risky.

[golentan]

I generally avoid messing with exalted fluff too much, but a moderate degree of tampering or expansion in the areas you will be focusing on seems to be very nearly the expectation IME. As others say, just run it by players first.

[Geigan]

I wouldn't change something without discussing with the other players first of course. What I want to hear is any examples of parts in the setting you changed for your specific games and why.

The reason I wanted to change Gens Maheka was because I got the idea for a more self-sufficient house that doesn't adhere to the immaculate faith. I like every other part of it but the reliance on the hogwash that is the immaculate faith. I was actually sort of picturing the magitech-artificer family equivalent of the Two Rivers(from Wheel of Time), or at least the attitude of all we need is each other, and not anyone who would look down on us. The flipside is that this also opens up the availability of earth aspects from lookshy in circles with other Exalted. There are of course always downsides to changing established settings, this will certainly put another damper on Dynast-only campaigns, effectively keeping them more separate from Lookshy. I'm okay with that, and I'll see if that's ok with the rest of the group.

[The Rose Dragon]

Gens Maheka are not the only Earth Aspects in Lookshy, nor is it uniform in all its scions. Keeping Maheka as is does not prevent Earth Aspects from traveling with Anathema.

[Kyeudo]

Originally Posted by Geigan

How often do you come across something you don't like in the setting and would you change it for your own game?

Every time I read an Ink Monkeys blog post. To be more serious, there are plenty of things in Exalted that are just silly or seem out of place. They aren't universally silly or out of place, however, so everyone needs to make their own call about which elements are actually part of the setting they play with. Personally, anything written in Glories of the Most High probably won't see the light of day in any game I run.

[Geigan]

Originally Posted by The Rose Dragon

Gens Maheka are not the only Earth Aspects in Lookshy, nor is it uniform in all its scions. Keeping Maheka as is does not prevent Earth Aspects from traveling with Anathema.

I am aware of that. I did not mean to say that there aren't any other options and that I'm opening up options that didn't exist before, just that I'm opening up more of them. I think the house would be a better fit if they embodied family values vs. faith values(mainly because the Immaculate faith is so lacking). I just really like the house except the immaculate faith fluff really. Also what I wished to hear was others examples (if they exist), not discussion of my own changes, though I am fine with explaining myself.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Originally Posted by Tavar

Their faith is noticeably less militant about it, plus it's already canon that some Anathema do have relations with Lookshy.

Who? Do you mean Karal Fire Orchard? Because that's a whole other thing.

Also, Lookshy is anything if not practical. I'd say it's possible, though theirs going to be a fair amount of waryness, at least until the celestials mind-rape prove themselves to him.

Well, yeah. That was my point. Lookshy has neither the resources nor the inclination to do Wyld Hunt 2.0. They're inherently distrustful, but they probably won't actively seek to knife a Solar unless that Solar stands to be a threat to them.

Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping

With the possible exception of some radicals in the city who want to go back to the Immaculate way of doing things.

The people of Lookshy are Immaculate. They're not fanatic about it like the Realm is, but the vast majority still practice the faith.

Take a look at Karal Fire Orchid's entry. Her mom offers her only minimal support behind the scenes, because she's not sure if her daughter is a demon wearing a shell that looks like her daughter. Her mom also, if she is discovered, will be demoted at the absolute least and killed by Lookshy at worst.

...though given that there might be conflicting sources, I'm willing to chalk this one up to "lolwhitewolf" and move on.

Originally Posted by Kyeudo

Every time I read an Ink Monkeys blog post. To be more serious, there are plenty of things in Exalted that are just silly or seem out of place. They aren't universally silly or out of place, however, so everyone needs to make their own call about which elements are actually part of the setting they play with. Personally, anything written in Glories of the Most High probably won't see the light of day in any game I run.

What's your beef with GotMH? I'm genuinely curious, as I don't think I've ever heard anyone before say they didn't like it.

[TheCountAlucard]

@Geigan: Well, as a for-instance, in my Green Sun Princes game, I've partially altered the fluff for the Thing Infernal. Namely, while I stuck with the fact that there aren't any rules nor proper parliamentary procedure, I explained it being that way because in my game, not all fifty GSP Exaltations have been deployed yet.

[DragonSinged]

Originally Posted by Geigan

The reason I wanted to change Gens Maheka was because I got the idea for a more self-sufficient house that doesn't adhere to the immaculate faith. I like every other part of it but the reliance on the hogwash that is the immaculate faith.

I'm not sure what you hate so much about the Immaculate faith. I mean, it's based on lies, yeah, but it also preaches about helping your fellow man and all that good stuff. Well, and serving the Dragonbloods, I suppose, but still.

Anyways, are you just changing the one house? Because as I understand it, that probably wouldn't sit too well with the rest of Lookshy.

[Geigan]

Originally Posted by DragonSinged

I'm not sure what you hate so much about the Immaculate faith. I mean, it's based on lies, yeah, but it also preaches about helping your fellow man and all that good stuff. Well, and serving the Dragonbloods, I suppose, but still.

Anyways, are you just changing the one house? Because as I understand it, that probably wouldn't sit too well with the rest of Lookshy.

Ooh, and political tension! That's one more thing to add to the fun reasons for change list. Also to cut off another objection at the the pass, yes I am aware that the biggest strength of Lookshy is their unity and discipline, and that undermining it will undermine how they survived, but I think it would be much more telling of their society's strength if they had managed to survive together despite such differences.

I actually like the immaculate faith as a player because it gives me something to oppose, as I find a faith based on lies to be incredibly offensive. All the helping your fellow man stuff just feels tacked on when you know its true origin. My first character I plan to have once I finally get the chance to play instead of STing is a Lunar who's main motivation is to tear down the Immaculate faith and replace it with one built upon self-sufficiency and other Lunar-y ideals. Not one that's just to get rid of the aversion to anathema, but something that will actually give faith to mortals rather than just having those with troubles run to the nearest Exalt.

[golentan]

The thing you have to remember about the immaculate faith, is that even though it's origin was based entirely on manipulations of the truth there is very little about it that is outright lie or untrue. Celestial Exaltations are dangerous and tainted by primordial ruin (hence "demonic") though that one is arguably the biggest lie because the people who came up with it as a tenant have no idea how true it is. Almost every hierarchy in creation and beyond is based on essence manipulation as a measure of authority and enlightenment. Historically heroic souls do get tracked for birth into dragon blooded families by the loom of fate, so living "good" lives will get you there eventually. Worshipping ancestors is bad for various reasons, including but not limited to the potential end of the world. The Spirits of Creation do have responsibilities toward creation and the exalted host's duty is to enforce those and negotiate with spirits on behalf of humanity. Inappropriate worship can and does distract them from these duties, and so is bad.

There are several key points where it falls apart. It fails to provide adequate distinction between several different classes of being. Its view of a good life does not mesh with heroic principles for the majority of the population, which means Farmer A following the immaculate faith dutifully for many generations will never catalyze a properly heroic soul to reincarnate as Dragonblood A. But generally, even so, I tend to see the virtues of the immaculate philosophy as generally good ones, the core as fairly sound and less lie-y than people always claim, and... well. There's a summation to a South Park out there that also sums up my feelings on the matter of how much a particular idea's history influences my view of it as a positive or negative force in the lives of it's adherents. You can look it up, if you choose.

[Drascin]

Originally Posted by Geigan

Ooh, and political tension! That's one more thing to add to the fun reasons for change list. Also to cut off another objection at the the pass, yes I am aware that the biggest strength of Lookshy is their unity and discipline, and that undermining it will undermine how they survived, but I think it would be much more telling of their society's strength if they had managed to survive together despite such differences.

I actually like the immaculate faith as a player because it gives me something to oppose, as I find a faith based on lies to be incredibly offensive. All the helping your fellow man stuff just feels tacked on when you know its true origin. My first character I plan to have once I finally get the chance to play instead of STing is a Lunar who's main motivation is to tear down the Immaculate faith and replace it with one built upon self-sufficiency and other Lunar-y ideals. Not one that's just to get rid of the aversion to anathema, but something that will actually give faith to mortals rather than just having those with troubles run to the nearest Exalt.

The thing is, the Immaculate Faith may be fake, but it does preach a lot of stuff that's more likely to make people work together than the half-baked Klingon-y pseudo-ideals the writers dropped on the poor Lunars. I like the comic in the Blessed Isle compass a lot - a single Immaculate-devout mortal facing down several law enforcers, alone, with only a stick, to defend a man who, to boot, is a heretic against the Immaculate Faith, simply because beating up a man who (from the Immaculate's point of view) simply was deceived is not right. This is not the kind of thing that you see commonly in Exalted books.

I'd want to go in a tangent, since perhaps me being an atheist colors my willingness to forgive a fake faith as long as its ideals are good, but I think that might straddle too close to the forum rules, so I'll be preemtively shutting up.

[Geigan]

Originally Posted by Drascin

The thing is, the Immaculate Faith may be fake, but it does preach a lot of stuff that's more likely to make people work together than the half-baked Klingon-y pseudo-ideals the writers dropped on the poor Lunars. I like the comic in the Blessed Isle compass a lot - a single Immaculate-devout mortal facing down several law enforcers, alone, with only a stick, to defend a man who, to boot, is a heretic against the Immaculate Faith, simply because beating up a man who (from the Immaculate's point of view) simply was deceived is not right. This is not the kind of thing that you see commonly in Exalted books.

I'd want to go in a tangent, since perhaps me being an atheist colors my willingness to forgive a fake faith as long as its ideals are good, but I think that might straddle too close to the forum rules, so I'll be preemtively shutting up.

I am not a theist myself, but I still find something that was invented purely for politics to be annoying. I would actually expect any faith I invent to counter the Immaculate teachings would be eerily similar as it would still preach all the good things, but would differ from it in execution. Namely no relying on the DBs to hold yourself up, none of the prejudice against anathemas(though it's slightly justified), judge others based upon their actions not whether they glow or not, and more I'm likely to flesh out as I play the character. Of course we'll still end up going to holy war because A)the immaculate faith expressly forbids inappropriate worship, B)Our ideals mean nothing before the difference in mode of worship, yes as stupid as that sounds different customs lead to war, even if they both hold to the important things like truth, love, peace, etc in what order they honor these, what ways they honor these ideals, and even as silly as the difference between rituals, praying, meditating, clergy, will lead them to anger and hatred when they cannot agree. Plus the rise of a new faith is very interesting as if I succeed it'll be apart of the campaign world now.

There's another question, since Exalted are obviously going to shake up the status-quo by their very nature, how do you handle major changes to the game world? Have players changed your cosmology, political lines, geography, etc. permanently and how?

[Rockphed]

Originally Posted by Drascin

I'd want to go in a tangent, since perhaps me being an atheist colors my willingness to forgive a fake faith as long as its ideals are good, but I think that might straddle too close to the forum rules, so I'll be preemtively shutting up.

Heh, being rather devout in my own chosen faith I agree completely with this sentiment. Taking it a step further, though I decry the originators as amoral sons-of-trees, the day to day practitioners who, like the example you cited, follow their faith and make the world better almost earn the creators forgiveness. Almost.

That said were I playing in a game as anything but a terrestrial, I would be trying to convert all comers to the worship of some being or another. Whether that worship was directed myself, my divine patron, ancestors, or my yozi patron, I'm not sure.

What would an alchemical try to get people to worship, were he low enough clarity to even care?

[golentan]

Autocthon. Alchemicals focus on autocthon if on anything, with high clarity even more interested in it for a variety of reasons (whether because their motivation ties into doing so or because it's hard to pursue that motivation when you're dead because the organ continent failed due to lack of worship and maintenance). Even apostates worship autocthon, they just limit themselves to the parts of him that are dead/trying to die/the future dead version of him: The Engine of Extinction I think it was?

[Kyeudo]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

What's your beef with GotMH? I'm genuinely curious, as I don't think I've ever heard anyone before say they didn't like it.

They took someone who should have been the most badass god in the setting, Sol Invictus himself, and made him into a Jesus-figure retard. They took the Maidens and turned them from the authors of Fate into Fate's slaves. They took the Sun and Moon and made them giant battlestations that automatically make every airship you can dream up tawdry by comparison. Lunar-Taming Leash. Primordial Principle Emulation. Bug fixes disguised as new Charms. Hidden errata. Not hidden Errata. Disco Ninja Style. A Charm that lets you stunt like an old martial arts master when you could already stunt like an old martial arts master. Thamaturgical religious rites. I have a hard time finding things to not hate about the book.

[masterjoda99]

Originally Posted by Kyeudo

They took someone who should have been the most badass god in the setting, Sol Invictus himself, and made him into a Jesus-figure retard. They took the Maidens and turned them from the authors of Fate into Fate's slaves. They took the Sun and Moon and made them giant battlestations that automatically make every airship you can dream up tawdry by comparison. Lunar-Taming Leash. Primordial Principle Emulation. Bug fixes disguised as new Charms. Hidden errata. Not hidden Errata. Disco Ninja Style. A Charm that lets you stunt like an old martial arts master when you could already stunt like an old martial arts master. Thamaturgical religious rites. I have a hard time finding things to not hate about the book.

Ok, now I am intrigued. What is so bad about Disco Ninja Style?

[Xefas]

Originally Posted by Kyeudo

Lunar-Taming Leash

This is actually one of my favorite charms. It nicely illustrates the "All Infernals are the gloriously badass kind of monster" and "All Solars are the disgusting spousal abuse kind of monster" contrast between the splats.

I mean, before, the line was a tiny bit fuzzier.

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by Geigan

There's another question, since Exalted are obviously going to shake up the status-quo by their very nature, how do you handle major changes to the game world?

Assuming it happens in my game, I'll probably have to try and puzzle out the ramifications of everything they've done.

Originally Posted by Geigan

Have players changed your cosmology, political lines, geography, etc. permanently and how?

Not yet, but we'll see soon enough.

[Kyeudo]

Originally Posted by masterjoda99

Ok, now I am intrigued. What is so bad about Disco Ninja Style?

Mechanically? It has no more problems than anything else providing unexpected attacks.

Fluff wise? It has little to do with its own namesake. There is nothing crystal about it. You can make a case for chamelion because it does hiding in plain sight with psychedelic colors, but even that is lousy. You fight like a disco ninja tripping on acid, not a chameleon.

A chameleon is not really a fast animal. It is a patient one. It sits, waits, and then strikes with a single moment of blinding speed and its over. A style with an animal's name should be about fighting like that animal. Scroll of the Monk might not be balanced, but at least Tiger Style reminds me of tigers.

Originally Posted by Xefas

This is actually one of my favorite charms. It nicely illustrates the "All Infernals are the gloriously badass kind of monster" and "All Solars are the disgusting spousal abuse kind of monster" contrast between the splats.

I mean, before, the line was a tiny bit fuzzier.

Spousal abuse should never be ingrained in a Charm set as a theme. Yes, I realize that not all Lunars were married to their Solars. It still isn't right for Solars to have any magic that influences the bond, especially in that way.

[Xefas]

Guess who got a hold of that pony maker program on deviantart.

Spoiler

My Little Yozi
I used to wonder what despair could be
My Little Yozi
Until you all shared your horror with me

Big desert, a green sun
A hollow heart, crystal and song
Sharing kindness, oh god please no
The gods will reap what they sow

You have My Little Yozi
Do you know you'll pay for all your sins?

[Rockphed]

Originally Posted by Kyeudo

Spousal abuse should never be ingrained in a Charm set as a theme. Yes, I realize that not all Lunars were married to their Solars. It still isn't right for Solars to have any magic that influences the bond, especially in that way.

Well, not without giving an equal and opposite channel for return influence.

[DragonSinged]

Originally Posted by Rockphed

Well, not without giving an equal and opposite channel for return influence.

Well, except.. wasn't the Lunar's lack of a channel for return influence sort of the whole point?

Whether it's cool or not, Solars are sort of supposed to be the masters in that relationship.. It's just usually not laid out in those terms. Lunars aren't supposed to be Solar's equals, and in situations where a Solar and Lunar are married, my understanding is that it's not really a marriage by modern (idealistic) standards. It is not (at least in most cases) a marriage of equals.

Actually a while back we had a discussion about misconceptions people have about the Exalted setting, and this conversation reminds me. Lunars are fairly frequently referred to as "abused housewives" and I feel like I need to remind myself every now and then that a Lunar in the "abused housewife" position specifically could be either male or female, and likewise with the related Solar... Oh, and that the gender of one partner isn't necessarily determinable by the gender of the other.

Actually, there's a thing. Has anyone ever run into a situation where they found that they were disappointed by the gender of their Lunar "mate"? I mean, I know that a) some Lunars can gender/shapechange, b) it isn't always a "mate" situation, and c) "everyone in Exalted is omnisexual", but point c aside, characters in Exalted do in fact have sexual preferences, and I'm sure some Solars, upon learning about Lunars, maybe were interested in having this arranged marriage/mate thing set up, and it might be a bit of a downer to learn that your Lunar opposite was not of a gender that suited your preference. Curious thought for a character interaction setup sort of thing, at least.

[tonberrian]

The idea of "Crystal" in Crystal Chameleon is the shimmer and sparkle off the facets. It actually fits very well.