I'd say that by this point, Chisame has pretty solidly eclipsed Setsuna in importance. She's had a lot more growth and development and has been the one closest to Negi for like a hundred chapters. Had you asked me before the arc introducing Rakan I'd have said that Setsuna was obviously more important, but it's changed since then.
That doesn't mean that Setsuna isn't hugely important and that her big fight where she overcomes Tsukuyomi's preying on her fear didn't deserve more attention.
About Madoka, having rewatched it I will say that I was looking at it as being too light before. I guess that expecting TVtropes to be right about its grimdarkness and maintaining a pretty great degree analytic distance. It still isn't is as dark as that site says, but it certainly is darker than my initial impression. Also, poor...everyone, really. Even with the ending.
Yeah, right now Chisame is ahead of Setsuna regarding their relationship with Negi, but she should be back in the spotlight as soon as Asuna (she's one of her closest friends, probably only behind Ayaka and maybe Konoka) and Konoka (obviously) get back into the action. She may not be as important for the protagonist right now, but she still has a big role to perform. I hope...
My reading of Umineko has been stopped lately, since I, ahem, managed to lose my saves somehow . The good news is that I've taken the chance to grab the "PS3fication" patch, and now I'm reading it with voices, which is making the experience of going through the first episode again quite rewarding anyway. Hearing Eva speak with Takano's voice or Maria "uu"-ing just like Hanyuu "hauu"-ed is... interesting, to say the least. Incidentally, Yui Horie is awesome.
Well, just so you know if it happens again; if you push the unlock button beside the episode mark in the start/load screen you will unlock everything up to that episode.
Well, just so you know if it happens again; if you push the unlock button beside the episode mark in the start/load screen you will unlock everything up to that episode.
I know, I know . It's just that I'm taking the chance to re-read the previous chapters with the PS3 CGs (creepy Maria is creepy) and the voices added (and something tells me episode 2 is going to be epic voice-wise). And to check if I missed something important in my first read, too. If I get bored with it (doubtful) I'll just unlock episode three and restart that one.
Back to anime: I recently watched the first episode of Katanagatari. I think I'm in love .
I gotta question. Is there any anime out there that is well written and isn't riddled with anime cliches (Silly Hair, nude wet women can't be hurt, mallet space etc)?
Ghost in the Shell doesn't have many anime cliches, and the ones it has are actually explain in universe (such as hair colour and whatnot).
But in reality, there are actually a lot of shows that fall under that. Mostly anything that isn't predominantly a comedy.
Riiiiiight. Explain the Tajikomas.
Or all those goofy Gundam idiocies? That's right, run about with a silly melee weapon while the guy several miles away nails you with a projectile weapon! Dammit, I could rant for hours.
Point is, I haven't found many of them at all. Most have plot points so huge you can drive a mack truck through them, with only the power of the Anime Constitution to spackle everything together....
So, I finished Last Exile. I liked it, although the ending was a bit...not-entirely-explained. But I'm used to that now. The plot in general was a bit hard to keep down here and there (I'm not one for politics where I don't have much of a stake in it), and it was kinda scattered at points. But it still looked pretty.
I'm making my way through TTGL now...SO MUCH MANLY SPIRIT. Loving it all the way.
Jeebers: *points to avatar* Gankutsuou steers clear of the silly anime clichés, and has a cool setting to boot. Cowboy Bebop does a pretty good job at being realistic, too, though it has a bishounen villain with a sword. I would also look into Noir, which is a modern drama about assassins. Granted, there's a few purple-haired characters and one character who's a knife ninja, but it's still a pretty grounded show.
Purposely programmed to sound cute to ease interaction with humans. Developed intellectually because of Batou's treatment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeebers
Or all those goofy Gundam idiocies? That's right, run about with a silly melee weapon while the guy several miles away nails you with a projectile weapon! Dammit, I could rant for hours.
You do realize that Gundam (UC Gundam at least) has an explanation for that, right? Minovsky Particles block off radio, radar and other electronic communication, making all aiming other than by eye impossible, which greatly reduces the range of combat. And do note that most UC mobile suits still rely on ranged weapons primarily, using melee as backup. In other words, do your research.
Just some anime that fits your criteria, off the top of my head:
Cowboy Bebop
Jin-Roh: The Brotherhood of Wolves
Haibane Renmei
Mushi-shi
Spice and Wolf
Suzumiya Haruhi (except the first episode and there's a good reason for that)
Genshiken
Eden of the East
Evangelion (borderline, there's some anime slapstick)
In general, you should look for seinen anime. If it's not a moe show, there is a high chance it will be grounded pretty well in reality.
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Most have plot points so huge you can drive a mack truck through them, with only the power of the Anime Constitution to spackle everything together....
I'm amazed that I can completely agree with this and yet I think my interpretation would not match what your intent was.....
Because the series I watch do tend to have some big meaty plots to chew on.
"Purposely programmed to sound cute to ease interaction with humans. Developed intellectually because of Batou's treatment."
Not good enough. The real reason is that the author wanted something cutesy. And the net effect is the same. Still a decent anime, even though it falls to the deadly Talking Heads effect way too often.
"You do realize that Gundam (UC Gundam at least) has an explanation for that, right? Minovsky Particles block off radio, radar and other electronic communication, making all aiming other than by eye impossible, which greatly reduces the range of combat. And do note that most UC mobile suits still rely on ranged weapons primarily, using melee as backup. In other words, do your research."
I've heard that before, and it STILL is ridiculous. The real reason is that the Japanese want drama at the expense of logic, and you know it. People can come up with the most goofy excuses they want, but in the end it's because the author said so. Gundam irritates me because of the constant anime cliches and plot holes. "Oh, I so hate killing people! (Blam!) Woe is me, all this destruction! (Kaboom!) War sucks! (the landscape gets blown to high heaven)" See what I mean? No sane human being would literally do that, but I've watched it happen in Gundam, almost verbatim. BTW, I haven't even MENTIONED the goofy costumes and hair which are ruled by anime cliches so thoroughly that I can have a friend of mine point out the stock characters.
I have Cowboy Bebop already, and it still has some anime strangeness but it's at a minimum.
As for Jin Roh, wasn't that the one where everybody kept flashing between human and wolf form, with no actual proof one way or another that they were shapeshifters? As I recall, that one had some strangnesses in it as well.
Evangelion is legendary for sheer anime stupidity, as I have both seen it myself and listened to people rant about the idiocy of putting an angsting preteen in a war mech, and about the psychedelic ending, and the illogical retcons.
I'm just not familiar with the other ones that you guys listed. Could you describe them a little? I certainly would investigate any that might be good. What bothers me is the fact that most of the writers seem totally oblivious to how goofy the genre easily becomes. The ones that seem to acknowledge it as being silly I tolerate and can even enjoy. Heck, I bought all of the DB and DBZ stuff in season format not too long ago.
I've heard that before, and it STILL is ridiculous. The real reason is that the Japanese want drama at the expense of logic, and you know it. People can come up with the most goofy excuses they want, but in the end it's because the author said so. Gundam irritates me because of the constant anime cliches and plot holes. "Oh, I so hate killing people! (Blam!) Woe is me, all this destruction! (Kaboom!) War sucks! (the landscape gets blown to high heaven)" See what I mean? No sane human being would literally do that, but I've watched it happen in Gundam, almost verbatim. BTW, I haven't even MENTIONED the goofy costumes and hair which are ruled by anime cliches so thoroughly that I can have a friend of mine point out the stock characters.
Which Gundam series did you watch?
Quote:
I'm just not familiar with the other ones that you guys listed. Could you describe them a little? I certainly would investigate any that might be good. What bothers me is the fact that most of the writers seem totally oblivious to how goofy the genre easily becomes. The ones that seem to acknowledge it as being silly I tolerate and can even enjoy. Heck, I bought all of the DB and DBZ stuff in season format not too long ago.
G Gundam and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann are both known for basking in their own absurdity.
Haruhi, which was mentioned, has someone trying to force things to conform to cliches. The first episode (in broadcast order) is an incredibly bizarre student film she created based on her idea of a good story.
Dragonball doesn't strike me as being incredibly self-aware, beyond that one scene where someone points out Krillin doesn't have a nose.
__________________ Minmaxboards are back up! But BG will be deleted soon; for reals. Last chance to save anything.
I've heard that before, and it STILL is ridiculous. The real reason is that the Japanese want drama at the expense of logic, and you know it. People can come up with the most goofy excuses they want, but in the end it's because the author said so.
You do realize that's something that applies to about as big a part of non-anime media as it does to anime, don't you? 'Because the author says so' is THE driving force of about every fiction. And plotholes are anything but anime exclusive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime32
Which Gundam series did you watch?
G Gundam and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann are both known for basking in their own absurdity.
Haruhi, which was mentioned, has someone trying to force things to conform to cliches. The first episode (in broadcast order) is an incredibly bizarre student film she created based on her idea of a good story.
Dragonball doesn't strike me as being incredibly self-aware, beyond that one scene where someone points out Krillin doesn't have a nose.
As much as I like Gundam, what he describes in a milder variety applies to a big part of the franchise. Though mostly in a milder variety, I guess.
Hm... there are quite a few series which are aware of their own absurdity... DB isn't too explicit about it but it's pretty obvious Toriyama didn't take himself or anything serious (well, not much) when he wrote it up. Same for G Gundam or TTGL, of course. Of FLCL where the plot holes are pretty much the plot. (Nah, not really, it's fun)
I've heard that before, and it STILL is ridiculous. The real reason is that the Japanese want drama at the expense of logic, and you know it.
Yeah, you can use this excuse to bash on any show that is not 100% like reality. If you can't muster even the slightest suspension of disbelief, then I'm sorry for you - the majority of good fiction is closed to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeebers
As for Jin Roh, wasn't that the one where everybody kept flashing between human and wolf form, with no actual proof one way or another that they were shapeshifters? As I recall, that one had some strangnesses in it as well.
Wrong show. That's Wolf's Rain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeebers
Evangelion is legendary for sheer anime stupidity, as I have both seen it myself and listened to people rant about the idiocy of putting an angsting preteen in a war mech, and about the psychedelic ending, and the illogical retcons.
Evangelion is a deconstruction of a super robot show, showing that putting a kid in a mech is a bad idea is its whole point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeebers
I'm just not familiar with the other ones that you guys listed. Could you describe them a little?
For someone with such negative attitude? No.
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"You do realize that Gundam (UC Gundam at least) has an explanation for that, right? Minovsky Particles block off radio, radar and other electronic communication, making all aiming other than by eye impossible, which greatly reduces the range of combat. And do note that most UC mobile suits still rely on ranged weapons primarily, using melee as backup. In other words, do your research."
I've heard that before, and it STILL is ridiculous. The real reason is that the Japanese want drama at the expense of logic, and you know it. People can come up with the most goofy excuses they want, but in the end it's because the author said so. Gundam irritates me because of the constant anime cliches and plot holes. "Oh, I so hate killing people! (Blam!) Woe is me, all this destruction! (Kaboom!) War sucks! (the landscape gets blown to high heaven)" See what I mean? No sane human being would literally do that, but I've watched it happen in Gundam, almost verbatim. BTW, I haven't even MENTIONED the goofy costumes and hair which are ruled by anime cliches so thoroughly that I can have a friend of mine point out the stock characters.
I have Cowboy Bebop already, and it still has some anime strangeness but it's at a minimum.
Ahem.
So Minovsky particles are ridiculous but lets see: a dog-genius, floating plants that blind people, the moon being blown up, immortality from said moon blowing up, a de-evolution virus, interplanetary travel that can leave you visible but intangible if done wrong, satellite graffiti, unlikely aerodynamic designs, hollywood hacking at its finest, the most wasteful terraforming ever, functioning feng shui, a space cowboy, and food mutating into an alien life-form from being left in the fridge too long.... constitute a minimum of anime strangeness?
Cowboy Bebop is one of the more random shows in anime history, which is the natural result of a series without an actual plot if you ask me. Its far from realistic or lacking in "strangeness" in any sense. In fact the majority of it would qualify as strangeness in my book.
You just don't seem to have a consistent standard here.
(And Spike has some rather goofy hair, so does Jet for that matter. And if Faye's outfit doesn't qualify as a goofy costume I'm not sure what does)
Most of that fits in pretty solidly with science fiction. That's why I said it kept the anime strangeness to a minimum. A good example of the exact opposite is FLCL, which just came across as stupid, imo. But that's my personal taste. Every time there's a typical anime WTF moment, it screws up my suspension of disbelief.
As Gundam is not known for having the mecha pop out of the main character's head.... I stand by my point. . Off hand I'm not sure I can come up with a series farther from FLCL then Gundam. In general I would Gundam has a minimum of anime cliches in it, its certainly one of the only ones I think could be done well in live action. And very very much a true to genre sci-fi story. Well if you except G Gundam, but that goes for everything about discussing what would or wouldn't happen in Gundam.
Which bring up a point that I believe has been said, which Gundam series have you seen?
Honestly, I dunno. I remember giving it a few episodes to test things out (it's what I do with most anime, as I don't like making snap judgments at anything except hentai, the latter goes beyond the pale frequently and suddenly). I don't recall what the name of it was, just that it was Gundam.
I certainly wouldn't mind hunting about on youtube or something to watch clips. I tend to view online episodes as something to watch so I can figure out if I like it or not. I've noticed that you can't trust sequels since the Japanese like to reinvent everything from scratch, and there are frequently terrible endings (especially unsatisfying ones) to series like Blue Gender, Big O and Evangelion. I own Blue Gender, but I tend to turn it off before the final episode or so.
Which one in particular can make a large difference. I might be able to figure it out if you've got a how and about when. Was it on TV, if so what network? Were you sure to catch it from the begining?
Other stuff you've named makes me want to guess it was Gundam Wing.
Also Big O and Eva have excellent endings. Both of Eva's! However a Gundam series is more likely to end with heroic battle and exsplosions then Mind Screw. And if Tomino is directing a lot of character deaths but I digress.
Oh my. The first Higurashi Kira OVA is more than a little bit creepy and absolutely terrible, even compared with the "comedy" episodes in Rei. And considering that, according to the previews, the second episode will have
Spoiler
some big fellow shooting yellow eye beams, someone dressed as your average super sentai evil mook, Hanyuu as a chibi fairy and Rika and Satoko as magical girls
I'm not too confident on any improvement. Not surprised, since this was intended to be a fanservice fest with little to no actual worthwile content in it from the start. But still. Ugh.
I really liked Big O, but the ending I thought (and most of my friends thought the same) was a huge letdown. Nothing was resolved. At all.
Evangelion is LEGENDARY for its terrible ending among anime fans since it originally came out. In fact multiple attempts at retconning the ending has been put out, only to introduce even more discrepancies.
I have a hard time understanding how someone can complain about anime strangeness and like a super robot show like Big O. But to each their own.
Anyway I saw the first 6 or so episodes of Big O deemed it mediocre and dropped it. But since then I heard several positiv mentions of the anime. So is it worth giving it another try?
I have a hard time understanding how someone can complain about anime strangeness and like a super robot show like Big O. But to each their own.
Because until the ending, it was internally consistent, so I could suspend my disbelief and enjoy it. It's the typical Japanese WTF moments that jump in out of left field that tick me off. That's not an attempt at humor, that's a cry for help!
I could get into DBZ even though it was silly, because it was internally consistent and admitted it was being goofy.
It was Big O's ending that I really hated because it didn't resolve a thing, and really made no sense when I looked at the rest of the series. That's why I've been so reluctant to buy a copy of it.
So, weirdness and lack of internal consistency is a Japanese thing now? I could have sworn that it happened all over the place whenever people tried to be even the slightest bit artistic or when they just screwed up. Or do you only watch Hollywood blockbusters from western entertainment?
So, weirdness and lack of internal consistency is a Japanese thing now? I could have sworn that it happened all over the place whenever people tried to be even the slightest bit artistic or when they just screwed up. Or do you only watch Hollywood blockbusters from western entertainment?
No, I tend to watch very few Hollywood anything. Haven't been to the theater in a LOOOOONG time. It's just that the Japanese are legendary in their oddities the world over. Ever been to cracked.com? It extends to far more than their anime. The only person I know of that can beat out the Japanese at their own game is Edward D Wood, Jr. You mighta heard of him; he's the worst movie director/producer/writer of all time.
As for trying to be artistic, I actively got a migraine from watching "American Beauty" in the theater. The woman I went with felt the same way.
*Steps into thread, looking a bit bewildered* So, just found this thread, figured I'd jump in and say "hello", so.. hello! Anyone around here watch H.O.T.D.?(High-School Of The Dead) Just got done watching the last episode the other day, and now I'm desperately wishing there were more episodes. Love zombies in anything, and an anime specifically focused around the outbreak and survival of a zombie epidemic definitely appealed to me.
Just to jump in on the current argument: You're watching what(and yes, I'm about to slap myself for saying this, as I hate it being referred to as such) amounts to a fancy cartoon, and you're complaining about suspension of disbelief? Ehh, seems a bit off/odd to me. Also, I"ll add: Rurouni Kenshin(I know I probably spelled that wrong): It has it's share of "Wow, that was odd" moments, but it's over-all a fairly seriously toned anime and quite enjoyable to watch ^^
So, weirdness and lack of internal consistency is a Japanese thing now? I could have sworn that it happened all over the place whenever people tried to be even the slightest bit artistic or when they just screwed up. Or do you only watch Hollywood blockbusters from western entertainment?
On the internal consistency part, I actually kinda get what jeeber's talking, terra. It's something like this.
I remember someone said that he can't get suspension of disbelief watching black lagoon or noir, because they looks realistic and supposed to be set in real world, and he expect them to be realistic, but they're actually not, and got stuffs that completely betray law of physics, like shooting down helicopters with torpedo and such (although, it's just as silly as most over-the-top hollywood action movie, but from the way he's talking I assume he also doesn't like them).
But on the other hand, naruto, for example, won't have that problem, eventhough it's clearly way more unrealistic than black lagoon or noir, because it's clearly set in a fantastic world, where people are supposed to be able to walk in water and shoot fire from their mouth.
Those might be or might not be silly (I really can't get how that guy expected black lagoon to be realistic, to be honest), but that's just how some people roll I guess.
Because until the ending, it was internally consistent, so I could suspend my disbelief and enjoy it. It's the typical Japanese WTF moments that jump in out of left field that tick me off. That's not an attempt at humor, that's a cry for help!
I could get into DBZ even though it was silly, because it was internally consistent and admitted it was being goofy.
It was Big O's ending that I really hated because it didn't resolve a thing, and really made no sense when I looked at the rest of the series. That's why I've been so reluctant to buy a copy of it.
Given that the conclusion is directly related to episode four with some elements introduced in the preceding three episodes its hardly from left field. What drove Schwarzwald insane is arguably even more central mystery then what happened to the memories and what that was is the conclusion: that its all not real.
Let me see if I can summarize the history of the Big O universe in brief:
Spoiler
Starts with discovery of the Archetype in the tunnels under NYC. Mysterious and never explained, and though not nessecarily hard to guess from episode 4 there is a freeze frame of a newspaper when Roger visits NYC in episode 14. From the Archetype humanity develops the Megadei in many forms, but the underlying tech is a black box. The androids are the same basic tech seemingly. Triggersa fairly quick tech rise leading to genetic engineering which accounts for things like the eel monster.
War breaks out and massive devastation occurs. About the same time Big Venus is built. The war may be a robot revolt by the Bigs, or a war from normal human reasons. Doesn't matter though the point is this.
It the apocalypse. Humanity dies at least almost entirely if not entirely.
Enter Angel Rosewater. We can guess from Roger's trip in Episode 14 and other places that Roger is a pilot, specifically of Big O. We also no the Bigs can merge with their pilots as seen with Gordon Rosewater. From here and her appearence getting drunk Roger back to base we can infer who Angel is. The pilot/soul of Big V.
Big V is powerful enough to warp reality. And having survived the apocalypse it recreates the world. Its laid out in many ways as a memory of humanity and largely exists only because of Big Venus. Hence why Paradigm disappears when Big V appears. Every human in it can thus be described as an actor in a production which Angel Rosewater is responsible for.
Roger Smith was originally the pilot of Big O before all this, and notably did not merge with his Big. Possibly why he "survived" if he did at all. However early in Paradigm's new existence he was contracted by Gordon Rosewater to discover the truth, more or less. Roger did so and upon learning his role requested (and recieved) a change in the script, probably to something he considered ideal. Hence his wildly well paying job that lets him be independent and pilot giant mecha. His appeal at the end is essentially to have Angel do the same, and reset the Paradigm "play" to its status quo.
Angel herself in the story is much the same: playing a role unaware (probably by choice) that she's really God. When she rediscovers this she turns back into Big V and almost destroys Paradigm but resets it instead thanks to Roger's speech. This may also represent Paradigm going "off script" and becoming more real.
Gordon Rosewater knew something of the truth and tried to find many more, particularly with his tomatoes. Alex is just a tomatoe that happened to become Gordon's heir.
The Union never existed beyond the tomatoes in Paradigm, hence why their "attack" is never scene in anyway but balls of light.
The only true mystery is what exactly R. Dorothy is in all this. Most likely she's a reflection of Angel Rosewater, possibly an ideal like Roger Smith is.
The final conclusion is simply ripping back the masquerade but restarting Paradigm in some way, presumbly letting at least Angel change her role like Roger did. Hence the final restart.
I'm bored. I'm bored and there's nothing out right now that interests me enough to watch fansubs of it (Tiger and Bunny has a chance when someone DVDrips it).
When's the Persona 4 anime coming out, anyway?
Also Jeebers, if you want something that requires no suspension of disbelief whatsoever, cartoons of any nationality probably aren't the way to go, in general.
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Re: General Anime Discussion: Area 11
. The good news is that I've taken the chance to grab the "PS3fication" patch, and now I'm reading it with voices, which is making the experience of going through the first episode again quite rewarding anyway. Hearing Eva speak with Takano's voice or Maria "uu"-ing just like Hanyuu "hauu"-ed is... interesting, to say the least. Incidentally, Yui Horie is awesome.
Re: General Anime Discussion: Area 11
