Well, "better". I would personally say that Heaven's Feel is actually the worst of the three routes, with pretty much everyone squeezing the Idiot Ball hard enough to make it look like the Idiot Sausage.
Heaven's Feel is pretty inconsistent in quality, but its peaks are incredible. Like an AC current.
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There's a middle ground between feminist idol and complete lack of independent agency, you know. She never shows pride in the decision, nor worry, frustration or anything beyond simply goince along with what Tokiomi decided. That's pretty damn extreme in terms of lacking agency and it's all we're shown and what we have to work with, which is to say a woman who is wholly subservient to her husband and only really exists as an object for Kariya to angst over.
Well, what I intended to say with my examples was that we don't have enough information to go on regarding what sort of character she is. She doesn't really get the screen-time for it, and the parts she gets are focused on the main characters.
She could be a doormat, or she could be something else.
Well, what I intended to say with my examples was that we don't have enough information to go on regarding what sort of character she is. She doesn't really get the screen-time for it, and the parts she gets are focused on the main characters.
She could be a doormat, or she could be something else.
That's not how fiction works. The full extent of what she is is what is shown and stated, subject to interpretation by the audience. If something is not included in the show or official supplementary material then it doesn't exist. It can be inferred as likely or stated as desirable, but it does not exist.
Not just that, even if she was the most amazing person ever she's used purely as an object for Kariya to angst over. That is the full extent of her role in the show it is what she is. She's not allowed even the smallest amount of time to be a subject acting on her own, she's wholly defined by the actions and opinions of others. That's really all there is to it and any speculation of what she might be like when off screen really doesn't matter in determining how the show presents women, except by the fact that it clearly wasn't judged worth showing.
For that matter, why do you obsess so much over Aoi specifically anyway?
Huh. I hadn't heard of this. Awesome news; Sailor Moon was one of my guilty pleasures growing up so it'll be interesting to see how this turns out (especially if they'll finally break the Monster of the Week mold and give the post-Super seasons proper adaptation). Thanks for bringing this to my attention; here's hoping
There's a middle ground between feminist idol and complete lack of independent agency, you know. She never shows pride in the decision, nor worry, frustration or anything beyond simply goince along with what Tokiomi decided. That's pretty damn extreme in terms of lacking agency and it's all we're shown and what we have to work with, which is to say a woman who is wholly subservient to her husband and only really exists as an object for Kariya to angst over.
Aoi invokes a wife in a very traditional family, the Tohsaka make consents to Westernization but not modernity. In a matter like this she would be culturally expected to suffer stoically in silence. Note this is actually separate from the expectation of subservience to Tokiomi as it applies to men in different contexts. Like the salaryman whose boss is a complete douche and abusive, do you complain... MOST CERTAINLY NOT. It can't be helped is more then a phrase.
And it applies not just because Aoi is a traditional housewife, but because she is normal and not a magus. It should be abudantly clear precisely how much Tokiomi would have cared should Aoi raise an objection to how to best uses his innately talented daughters. And she has exactly as many options to oppose him. He wouldn't even think he'd done anything wrong, good and evil do not enter into the equations of a magus.
That's not how fiction works. The full extent of what she is is what is shown and stated, subject to interpretation by the audience. If something is not included in the show or official supplementary material then it doesn't exist. It can be inferred as likely or stated as desirable, but it does not exist.
Not just that, even if she was the most amazing person ever she's used purely as an object for Kariya to angst over. That is the full extent of her role in the show it is what she is. She's not allowed even the smallest amount of time to be a subject acting on her own, she's wholly defined by the actions and opinions of others. That's really all there is to it and any speculation of what she might be like when off screen really doesn't matter in determining how the show presents women, except by the fact that it clearly wasn't judged worth showing.
For that matter, why do you obsess so much over Aoi specifically anyway?
Obsess? I just brought her up as an example and you continued with it. It wouldn't have made much sense to start talking about Assassin all of a sudden you know.
And I apparently disagree with your view of fiction, I try to immerse myself in a story and treat and view fictional characters much as I would do real people. There is usually something more to someone than the first 5 minutes you see them, in fiction you can't really pursue it though since it depends on the writer to show it or not. He or she might do it though, just as you might have an other chance encounter with the person you only met for 5 minutes.
And more of her might not have been shown since it was not really relevant to the story as a whole. As an extreme example:
A lot of people where gathered around the hotel Emiya blew up but they didn't show their entire lifespans up till that point since it would probably not have much impact on the story they tried to tell.
The grail war.
- But I don't see you jumping at the writers for representing the majority of people appearing in the anime as frightened and confused all the time.
The last part was sort of meant to say that if not enough information is presented to judge a character by, a judgement should not really be made about their character - not that I want all their back-stories told.
And I apparently disagree with your view of fiction, I try to immerse myself in a story and treat and view fictional characters much as I would do real people. There is usually something more to someone than the first 5 minutes you see them, in fiction you can't really pursue it though since it depends on the writer to show it or not. He or she might do it though, just as you might have an other chance encounter with the person you only met for 5 minutes.
...You do know that fictional characters are constructs created by people to serve a purpose in the story being told, right? Like, a book or show isn't an interface to another world where these people live, it is a story that somebody made up. This somebody chose what the characters should be like as well as what aspects of them to show. Often a lot of unintended aspects enter the story and equally often narrative inertia kicks in, but that doesn't change the fact that at its core somebody chose to make a character the way they are.
I'm not having an issue with Aoi as a person, I have a problem with her as a narrative device and the way she is being utilized by Urobuchi and whoever directed the show. Her actions are directed by their decisions and their goals for what story to tell, the way she behaves reflects on them and how they chose to tell the story.
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Last edited by Terraoblivion : 07-06-2012 at 04:30 PM.
Well look at it like this instead, you seem to read the text while I read the story. Enjoyment comes from different directions.
And yes how they use her it reflects on them, but not that much more than any other side character which is mainly there to fill up an otherwise empty world. You think she was poorly used, but I think she wasn't much worse than male carpenter 1 in the last episode. They both did their minor work in the story but we didn't get to know especially much of either of them.
You can't just ignore that the text is the text for ****'s sake. Or do you ignore racism, homophobia and religious discrimination too when the writer doesn't deliberately call attention to them?
For that matter are you seriously just going to ignore that she's part of a wider trend in the portrayal of female characters and look at each of them completely outside the context of the others existing? I listed every single female character in the show to point out how except for Rin they are all either used as tools for the plot of men, exist to suffer indignities worse than the men or, in most cases, both. This isn't rocket science.
I will fanboy over that trailer when it's out with proper quality. Or better yet, next year when we get DVDrips (or BDrips if I get a larger hard drive).
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You can't just ignore that the text is the text for ****'s sake. Or do you ignore racism, homophobia and religious discrimination too when the writer doesn't deliberately call attention to them?
For that matter are you seriously just going to ignore that she's part of a wider trend in the portrayal of female characters and look at each of them completely outside the context of the others existing? I listed every single female character in the show to point out how except for Rin they are all either used as tools for the plot of men, exist to suffer indignities worse than the men or, in most cases, both. This isn't rocket science.
First off I feel you are vastly over-inflating the imbalance to support your own personal axes to grind.
Second is there anything in particular to Fate/Zero to blame, or are there elements to blame in Japanese culture that are unsavory? I know I find it the latter not the former. Forgetting the prequel for a moment care to compare even F/SN to other hentai series/games? How about fanservice heavy series that aren't even for adults only. I don't feel I can single Fate/Zero out
However beyond moving to Japan, and starting a political movement I don't really have any options to do things about it.
Would you like perhaps some kind of litmus test on all anime. Must be this progressive or its not to be watched?
Other anime tend to be better about this sort of thing. Not revolutionary, but still better. So the argument "it's just Japan" doesn't hold water.
Also, there is middle ground between progressive and disturbingly misogynistic. Not everything has to be the former, but it should never be the latter.
Lastly, F/SN is not a hentai. It has erotic themes but it's a plot-based visual novel first.
Fate/Zero goes beyond basically any other anime I've seen in misogyny. Don't get me wrong, there's way worse out there, but I've avoided that for a reason.
And, yes, I do think that there are certain minimum standards when it comes to portrayal of women and minorities. They aren't particularly high, I love MariMite despite seeing some definite problems in how the one actual, lesbian relationship in it is handled. I also don't constantly over the fact that most people who aren't white or Japanese get treated quite stereotypically and you won't see me go on a crusade to eliminate every hint of fanservice. It's when shows go above and beyond in being hateful, discriminating and cruel to groups without hegemonic power that I get worked up and Fate/Zero really does. Just look at how every time Saber actually is actually successful, the scene cuts to something else while she does so or how Sola-Ui only shows any initiative as a result of a curse that makes her fall madly in love with a man. That's not even getting into how creepily fetishistic the strangling is.
As for whether there are problematic aspects in Japanese culture. Of course there are. But how exactly does that justify any part of what the show does wrong? Especially when the show goes way above the norm for entertainment coming out of Japanese culture in being horrible to women.
Other anime tend to be better about this sort of thing. Not revolutionary, but still better. So the argument "it's just Japan" doesn't hold water.
Also, there is middle ground between progressive and disturbingly misogynistic. Not everything has to be the former, but it should never be the latter.
Ha, ha, ha no. Disturbingly misogynistic would be instead of killing the women along with the men, we get the "joy" of a rape fantasy fulfillment scene where she starts crying out about how she doesn't want it but how good it feels before its over. There's plenty of that coming out of the country. Anime does not occur in an isolated vacuum from that.
Fate/Zero to me isn't any more or less outside the Japanese norm. Its just more obviously Japanese to our eyes, played for just about zero comedy, and featuring overwhelmingly adult characters who act like adults in Japan are expected to act.
If the Nasuverse has taught me one thing its how LITTLE years of anime represents Japan. What's relatively normal for anime is essentially an adolescent indulgence on the part of Japan it might be interesting escapism but has little to do with the reality of the country.
Now yeah some are better true, but not every anime is say Miyazaki level. And not every girl he creates is Nausicaa level independent. A character like Irisviel could fit pretty well as the heroine of Castle in the Sky or Porco Rosso.
Perhaps instead you would you care to here a rant about how "disturbingly misogynistic" TTGL is? How the main girl is a pretty princess who can make all the speeches she wants but doesn't amount to much more then an object for Simon to replace Kamina with? Or how the resident action girl... grows up to take the sedate and rather traditional role of a school teacher?
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Lastly, F/SN is not a hentai. It has erotic themes but it's a plot-based visual novel first.
And every girl in it is over 18, they tell you so in the intro!
I'm pretty sure adult Japanese people aren't generally expected to go on killing sprees for religious miracles. I'm also pretty sure Japanese people only rarely infect eight year old girls with giant parasitic worms, cut the arms off people or blow up air planes.
Both times I went to Japan I also got the distinct impression of Japanese people are capable of showing emotion without being completely and utterly insane. I hope so at least, otherwise most people I saw over there ought to get some heavy medication.
I'll be completely honest, which bits of behavior of these characters would not be considered completely and utterly insane in real life? They're murderous psychopaths with bizarre goals and worldviews that only make sense in the presence of Nasuverse magic.
Japanese people are not Martians, they want affection from people they care about, recognition for their work, safety, comfort and luxuries and so on just like everybody else. Seriously, why is it so many American nerds think that Japanese people are some kind of mystical space aliens that we can't possibly comprehend, while still eagerly expression their views about Japanese entertainment?
And as an aside about your TTGL comment. That is in fact one of the things I really don't like about the show. However, it still portrays the girls fundamentally competent, it doesn't take glee in breaking them and it doesn't try to be anything more than a somewhat absurd male power fantasy.
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Last edited by Terraoblivion : 07-06-2012 at 09:49 PM.
In regards to TTGL and misogyny, I always considered the exploration of gendered values as the main theme of the series, and the most interesting part. Spoilered because there's always someone who hasn't seen it, and I may well be talking out my ass here:
Spoiler
Firstly, I'd like to clarify that when I talk about gendered values, I'm not referring to anything innate to the sexes, but convenient groupings based on societal roles.
I've always considered Gurren Lagann to be about Simon's growth as a person (for at least the beastman war arc, after that it just stretches it out a bit I think). Simon is given two role models, hyper-masculine Kamina, and ultra-feminine Nia. As awesome as they both are, neither one is shown to be the correct route for Simon's growth. Kamina's constant aggression leads to his death, while Nia's submissiveness leads to her being stuck in a box and thrown in a dump. Overt masculinity is shown to lead to self destruction (though admittedly, in particularly impressive ways), while overt femininity is shown as unable to overcome any obstacles. It is only through the combination of these values that Simon is able to achieve what he does. This is what I understood him as talking about when he mentions the two paths in his final drill speech. Basically, I understand the series as being about the masculine/feminine of the Yin/Yang concept.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue. Doesn't really excuse Nia not getting a mech, or Yoko's ever ridiculous outfits, but I kinda find that an acceptable compromise when I consider how much I love the rest of the show.
I'm pretty sure adult Japanese people aren't generally expected to go on killing sprees for religious miracles. I'm also pretty sure Japanese people only rarely infect eight year old girls with giant parasitic worms, cut the arms off people or blow up air planes.
Which is itself unrelated to the underlying roles they play in a family structure.
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Japanese people are not Martians, they want affection from people they care about, recognition for their work, safety, comfort and luxuries and so on just like everybody else. Seriously, why is it so many American nerds think that Japanese people are some kind of mystical space aliens that we can't possibly comprehend, while still eagerly expression their views about Japanese entertainment?
That's hardly the case.
But it does mean I try to be more flexible in my viewpoints and perceptions before condemning something for not matching my own hangups about morality.
Thus I try to recognize that say Aoi is not say an extreme doormat but rather intended as an example of quiet noble strength and thus has some admirable qualities. Or at least within the culture of the audience, I don't care for it but I can at least fall back on her really not having options. Irisviel is a more laid out example, her fate is basically to die after all, its really only through her own efforts that she is able to have any joy at all. And for that matter its rather evident that while she calls of Kiritsugu to fight and to plan, Kiritsugu was saved by Iri and able to some happiness in a life bereft of it beforehand. However you don't sound like you place any value to that.
And Maiya, as I see it as intended to be more about being genderless. She isn't this poor needy woman that needs a man to put her straight, but an entity that exists for a singular purpose. Gender is a concept that is simply too human for the character, as a gun has no gender whatever hand fires it. Now she's just a side character so this isn't explored, but so be it.
While Saber is a different examination of this, a person who denied their humanity to become a concept. In this case a King. Here though its really all in F/SN this is explored as a problem, because the tragedy of King Arthur's life shattered the conceptual construction. In effect she failed and because she failed she needs to be fixed by returning to being a human being.
The critical component though that is missing an why I disagree on your interpretation is no one comes down on those Nasuverse characters that do not conform. Rin is never called to account for being Rin and in every route comes out ahead. Even limiting to Fate/Zero Iskander doesn't casually take Saber apart because he thinks a woman should not be a King (ruler) but because Saber essentially failed and he believes she will be happier in a different role. He's right of course, but that's why there's the big old reset button. If we want to complain Saber is wasted in Fate/Zero because there's an argument to be had there for sure, but her gender doesn't really enter into it as any big element. The story has nothing against women like Rin (or any 'strong female protagonist' out there) it just simply has chosen not to use them in the Fourth Grail War.
And I continue to simply disagree with you on the women being somehow excessively subjected to violence because they are women.
Sola-Ui is probably the only case where gender is actually important to her death and she gets put through less pain then Kayneth and even Lancer, and I think that trio makes a textbook classic tragedy I'd keep even if everything else is change. Interestingly this is at the hands of Maiya who herself is taken down off screen by a Servant with little fuss. Aoi is choked out quickly much like Tokiomi was backstabbed suddenly, and even technically survives. Iri takes the chance to basically spit in Kotomine's face and maybe even win some points given how controlled he is, she frankly gets the second biggest send off of all in my book. Saber is wounded once in the entire story and gets to disappear into F/SN with no fuss. And on the other end there's Kariya who's getting eaten by worms for most of his screentime and gets eaten in the end as a commentary on how stupid he was.
Really only Rider gets a big scene to 'die well' in. Which I don't think opens some kind of debt that needs to be paid. If there's something to be said about violence to women, its that it isn't infected with an oversensitivity to it like much of Western culture is.
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And as an aside about your TTGL comment. That is in fact one of the things I really don't like about the show. However, it still portrays the girls fundamentally competent, it doesn't take glee in breaking them and it doesn't try to be anything more than a somewhat absurd male power fantasy.
I'm not sure what fundamental competence you are finding that makes a difference. Okay Yoko's reasonable in a fight, so were Maiya and Natalia Kaminski. It still makes them rather marginal in accomplishments, only the latter cases weren't presented as being anything like main characters.
However the point I'm getting at is that I got my blinders off about women in anime and Japan a long time ago. I can't single out Fate/Zero as somehow worse then any other series out there. And actually better since even side characters carry a weight that most anime doesn't even bother with. Furthermore I'm entirely aware of exactly how much difference any socio-politcal objections I might get all worked up about will matter to creators in Japan.
In short (and allowing for the real cases) when it comes to Japan's misogynistic strains as a culture: I got over it.
When I want to advance the lot of females in entertainment I'd rather do it by supporting a show like Friendship is Magic that is actually taking proactive steps forward. Stuff like what your doing is as far as I'm concerned just poisoning the fun for others, its a political debate trying to grind its axe on a show that's greatest sin is just not caring enough about political correctness to appease the would be editors of the universe.
In short (and allowing for the real cases) when it comes to Japan's misogynistic strains as a culture: I got over it.
When I want to advance the lot of females in entertainment I'd rather do it by supporting a show like Friendship is Magic that is actually taking proactive steps forward. Stuff like what your doing is as far as I'm concerned just poisoning the fun for others, its a political debate trying to grind its axe on a show that's greatest sin is just not caring enough about political correctness to appease the would be editors of the universe.
So you, a man, "got over" misogyny in the fiction you enjoy, and a woman speaking about it is obviously just out to "poison your fun" with "politics" (such as thinking women are people, and that matters).
Think carefully about what an appalling callousness you're conveying here.
I stopped considering anything you might have said after this because it stops being relevant. I cannot express on this board how personally offensive I find this attitude.
@Soras - so, basically, if someone is offended by the fact that all women in a show are portrayed as incompetent and/or plot devices, it's their own fault they're offended and they should get over it? And somehow, being a fan of MLP FiM makes saying such stuff okay?
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I stopped considering anything you might have said after this because it stops being relevant. I cannot express on this board how personally offensive I find this attitude.
It is relevant. As a man misogyny doesn't affect you, you have the privilege of being able to not care. Instead you can just watch a few shows where women are treated with respect and call it a day and pat yourself on the back for having fulfilled your quota on being progressive and go back to watching hateful, misogynistic garbage. It's hardly a moral stance to take, if something is wrong it is so all the time, not just when you feel like convincing yourself that you're a good person.
I don't get that privilege. Misogyny targets me personally, just getting over it means accepting that me and people like me are inferior. I'm not doing this so I can pat myself on the back and congratulate myself on being progressive, nor to score points in some strange game or to try and sway the outcome of elections. I'm doing it because misogyny is repressive, bigoted and leads to half the population of the planet getting discriminated against. Quite frankly I don't give a damn about ruining the fun of others to oppose this. If your fun includes treating women as objects rather than as people, then it's that fun which is wrong, not complaining about it.
I, another man, think this thread isn't the place to discuss misogyny specifically. This thread is about anime, and if misogyny is to be discussed, it should be discussed as it's seen in anime.
So, what about people post examples of shows they liked, and say whether they were misogynistic or not? I'll start.
Itazura na Kiss - a very clichéd romance story.
A girl, who isn't that clever and isn't really good at anything, likes a boy who's perfect in everything. The boy's mother, a tall, thin, married woman, is shown fussing over her son and showing pictures of him as a cute little child. The girl's mom is dead. The boy's dad, a middle-aged, slightly overweight, balding guy, is happy. The girl's dad is muscular and manly. And so on. Even worse, the male characters tend to be the ones with the final say in e.g. whether or not a relationship starts, or ends.
If it wasn't so saccharine and sweet, I wouldn't have managed to get over the stereotypes.
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
The protagonists are all soldiers working as a secret police squad who gets handled all kinds of dangerous missions. One of the most important characters and their leader-in-action is female. She is the most compentent soldier and fighter, several of the guys are more soft-hearted than her even though she has her moments too, and that part is handled well.
The world of the series is shown to be misogynistic, but I think it's mostly shown as a bad thing. Women are sometimes kidnapped, but so are men. Women are sometimes shown to be in bad relationships, and the main characters really don't like that. The robot servants of the world are almost always made to look like women, though, and that's never explained, at least in the anime. The few male robots I remember played a bigger role in the episodes they appeared in.
I think I've said more or less I want in the discussion but I thought I'd comment this one:
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Originally Posted by Tengu_temp
Protip: just because you add a winking icon doesn't mean that your statement becomes any less condescending.
There are people who derive joy from cutting apart a story into its basic components and glue it back together again - something I don't think is anything wrong at all. A painting can be described by the emotions it wakes in you, the quality of the brush-strokes, the composition of its objects, the chemicals used in the paint and etc. All are valid, but a discussion between two people focusing on different ways to describe it might not be successful since one possibly won't understand the other.
Since Terraoblivion relied heavily on narrative devices and arguing for not going beyond the presented text in her posts (among other things) I sensed that we had a completely different way of approaching the matter of fictional works and that they didn't mix that well. I thought that the sentence would convey the feeling of this difference in our way to approach the matter, and still think it does. But I would probably had a "" (instead of the "" I changed it into) if I wrote it today.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not hardly a heavily analytical audience. I get dreadfully bored trying to follow all the namedropping of authors and philosophers in GitS: SAC and basically roll my eyes at all the symbolism in things like Utena. Instead all my fondest memories of anime viewing are about tense drama and emotionally powerful events, like episode 10 of Madoka or the Christmas scene in Read or Die: The TV.
That doesn't mean that I don't understand that they're constructions that came from the choices of an author and that the abstract level of composition and authorial choice matter. I just ignore it when the writer isn't making choices with awful real world implications. Misogyny or racism or jingoistic nationalism or whatever are all examples of things that have awful real world implications. Writers shouldn't get a free pass on these things because taking an analytical approach isn't what you derive your entertainment from. Especially since it's not like the perspective disappears just because you aren't looking at it, you're just ignoring the problems by doing that.
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