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Homebrew Design Roll up your sleeves and get working: there's lots of homebrewin' to be done! Post your custom creation for critiques or review those of your peers.

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Old 05-29-2011, 01:57 AM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

I really like how Pathfinder handled the Eidolons, the evolutions in particular. Gave a lot of flexibility and seemed all in all fairly well balanced. This system is an attempt to build on that to help streamline and balance things like custom monsters and templates, monster PCs, polymorphing and summoning, and so on. It also includes some options for simply expanding the options open to normal classed PCs, using the tier system as a guide to hopefully help close the gap between the classes (slightly, at least).

Balance is a goal for this system, but at the end of the day, it does expand character options and make it much easier to get abilities that characters might otherwise have to jump through hoops to acquire. I think that's a good thing, but it definitely makes this a high-powered variant.

General Rules/Terms

Spoiler


Gaining Evolutions

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Evolutions

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Evolution Short List

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Last edited by Quellian-dyrae : 12-29-2012 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Tacitus
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

I haven't had time to run numbers of a lot of stuff, but for the Spell-Likes you may want to add in an extra cost for turning something with a duration to Continuous. A continuous Haste as Su that only affects you is 6ep. Foreverhaste available as early as your 3rd Outsider HD (assuming no LA), or 4th for a straight fighter is a little crazy. Hell, as a Spell-like its available from first HD in quite a bit.

Assuming my numbers work out right, of course.
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:48 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

The spell-likes are something I'm fairly concerned about. I'd figure many will balance out okay, but I'm sure there are some that won't. I have a suggestion in there about limiting them until the character is at least level (2*SL-1), or basically, the level that a prepared caster would get the spell.

Probably the best thing to do, though, would be to make that not a suggestion, and step up the required level at least slightly.

And then, eh, see if there are any broad groups of spells that are significantly likely to be troublesome and need additional rules...yeah, I'll go back and see what I can figure out there.

Thanks for the input!
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:06 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Tacitus
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

I think the biggest part is really the duration. I'd say use the same sort of duration factors as custom magic items.

Quote:
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
That way a permanent Haste, even reduced to Self Only, would cost
(3-1) [Spell Level] x2 [for 1-3rd] x4 [Rounds duration]
or 16ep (18ep for Su). I'd say 16ep for permanent Haste is actually probably spot on.

The other option, being able to cast it at will, would still only be 6ep (or 8 for Su), but it would require an action and have a super short duration, so keeping it up outside of combat is silly and any sane DM would smack you for it.

I'd also add in a caveat that you can't have continuous spells that have discharges and the other basic stuff like that which would go along with a Persist-esque ability. No True Strike all the time, and such. XD
I'm not sure what level Wraith Strike is, so I can't do the math on that one, but it also seems problematic.

I'm not sure on the 1/2 cost for spells already at 24 hours carrying over into this. On one hand, someone could just buy a 1/day version (or 3/day for paranoid types) and get the same benefit, but Continuous would renew if subjected to a dispel of some kind where the other wouldn't. Though, I suppose getting it 3/day for a wee bit more would probably be better than Continuous for Self Only, and the cost would represent that in most cases. So... it would probably be okay to include.

And no problem. I've liked the idea of the Eidolon since I first saw it, and none of the other efforts to use it outside of the Summoner class have been very promising. I'm terribly excited about this, and will probably be trying to use it quite soon.
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Never can find my towel...

So it goes.

Healing is like accounting, but with life and death.
-Self


>.> So, yeah, I'm like, married now.

Last edited by Tacitus : 05-29-2011 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:32 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

Eh...16 EP for permanent haste would require a Limiting Factor of at least 8. Really, the effects of haste could be emulated by...three doses of Fast, +2 Dex (sorta - you wouldn't technically get the +1 to hit without weapon finesse or a ranged weapon, but Dex gives more bonuses, so it's a reasonable analog), and...I suppose Limbs (Arms) is the most reasonable extra-attack analog. That's 7 EP, and gives a few side-benefits.

Thinking about it, I'm trying condensing the SLA and SLA List options into one, making it almost into a sort of spellcasting-light. I edited the original post with my first draft, but I'm going to need to mull over it and make sure it isn't offering too much. Run some numbers against actual casters and all.

And you are dead-on about True Strike and Wraithstrike. I can't believe I didn't think about the quintessential "This is why the custom magic item rules are guidelines" spell and the one spell that I truly consider hard-banned in my games (rather than the "Yes it technically exists but I really don't feel like rewriting it to work at the moment so let's just gloss over it" treatment that most of the problem spells get).
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:40 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
Tacitus
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

Well, going with my haste example and the new system you have up there, I'll run numbers again, mostly for my own reference and clarity. [I assume "However, the character cannot have any spell-like abilities with a spell level higher than twice its character level - 1." is a typo, as that would mean that a 2nd level character could have spell levels up to 3rd, and a 5th level character could have up to 9th]

Pay 6ep and get Twice your limiting factor in spells. Lets assume 13HD and a limiting factor of 8 (just running numbers, if 13HD at LF8 isn't possible, eh, its an example). Thats up to 8th level spells and 16 spell slots, correct?

Haste is 3rd.
+2 SL for At Will or +3 for Continuous.
+1 additional for Su
So Continuous Haste is a 6th level spell, 7th for Su

In exchange for 4 of those 16 spell slots I would then be able to have an Su Haste up all the time?

Then toss on Upgrades for 8 additional Spell Slots for 8ep, for a total cost of 14ep and 20 unused spell slots?
__________________
Never can find my towel...

So it goes.

Healing is like accounting, but with life and death.
-Self


>.> So, yeah, I'm like, married now.

Last edited by Tacitus : 05-29-2011 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:09 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

Yeah, just giving that a cursory glance told me it wasn't working either.

And yep, I messed up the spell progression equation real good. Reversed it completely I do believe. Should be half level + 1. Sigh. Basically, you can get a spell of a given SL at the same level as a wizard.

But even modifying it more and going over it, it's definitely too much. Going to have to kill the list idea, make each SLA purchased individually. Preferably in a way that still allows for powerful monsters with level-appropriate SLAs, without making it too easy for PCs. Hmm...

Going to have to think on that one a bit more.
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:31 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Tacitus
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

The Metamagic-esque route isn't a bad one. I kinda like it, actually. EP equal to effective spell level for 1-3, x2 for 4-6, x3 for 7-9, etc might work out.

Effective Level 7 for the Su Haste all the time would be 21ep, 6th for the Sp would be 12ep, 10ep for Sp At Will.

I'm thinking we should try to build a Blink Dog and see how close we can get.

Blink Dog has 4 Magical Beast HD and +2 LA
EP: 0 (Base) + 32 (RHD) + 30 (LA)
LF: 2 (Base) + 1 (RHD) +1 (LA)

This gives us 62ep to work with under a LF of 4.
Assuming quadraped without any of the free stuff except limbs, and 10s and 11s across the board.
DV 60ft, LL: Free to Magical Beasts
1 Bite: 1ep
+4 NA: 2ep
+6 Dex: 6ep
+2 Wis: 2ep
Track: 1ep
Blink: 3rd base, +3 Continuous, +1 Su. So... 21ep?
DD: 4th base, +3 Continuous (sorta), +1 Su. So... 24ep?
Scent: 1ep

58ep, which breaks the limit of cost on the SLAs pretty hard, assuming the metamagic-esque pricing system with the above suggestions.

For only being off by 4ep and having one higher NA, thats pretty damn close.
__________________
Never can find my towel...

So it goes.

Healing is like accounting, but with life and death.
-Self


>.> So, yeah, I'm like, married now.

Last edited by Tacitus : 05-29-2011 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:58 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

Yeah, I like that. I was debating on using base SL to determine the multiplier (so a SL 3 with +3 modifiers would cost 12 rather than 18), but the Blink Dog analysis convinced me. Besides, with SLAs, as much room for breaking things as there is, it's probably better to err on the side of charging more. Will post the updated version in a moment.
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Old 05-30-2011, 02:27 AM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Tacitus
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

Still on the SLAs, I'm thinking your wording for maximum modified spell level is incorrect, if you intend to equal the spell levels of prepared casters. One half level plus one would come out to one spell level higher than a caster would have at the time on even levels. 13 halved would round down to 6, plus one for 7. 14 halved is seven, plus 1 is eight. One level ahead of prepared casters. I suggest one half character level, rounded up. That would mean that you'd have the same spell progression as a prepared caster. Unless, of course, you intend to advance faster than casters.
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Never can find my towel...

So it goes.

Healing is like accounting, but with life and death.
-Self


>.> So, yeah, I'm like, married now.
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Old 05-30-2011, 02:43 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

I...cannot see why I cannot seem to get this stupid equation right. ::HEADDESK::
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Old 05-30-2011, 02:47 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
Tacitus
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

It took me a half hour to try to present better wording, and even then its not really all that great. >.>
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Never can find my towel...

So it goes.

Healing is like accounting, but with life and death.
-Self


>.> So, yeah, I'm like, married now.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:36 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
Zireael
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

I know the thread is very old, but I wanted to ask - is there an easier to understand version? The concept is brilliant!
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:59 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Re: Evolved Characters and Monsters [PEACH]

Huh, actually, I do have a more advanced version. I'm not entirely sure it's easier to understand, but all the evolutions are there, it has more clearly defined rules for multiple purchases, and there's substantially more evolutions. And it...might be slightly better balanced in some areas. OP has been updated.
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"A role playing game is three things: it is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking."

"If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire."

Last edited by Quellian-dyrae : 12-29-2012 at 09:09 PM.
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