Darths And Droids 2: Should've Gone to Naboo

[sihnfahl]

Originally Posted by ThePhantom

I like a villain that goes out in style.

A villain who goes out in style is one who showed their worth as an antagonist.

Pathetic villains get cruddy deaths, like being dropped down the chimney of a factory.

[ThePhantasm]

I thought Obi-Wan and Yoda splitting up in the movie was pretty stupid too. That and Obi-Wan not even making sure Anakin died.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

I thought Obi-Wan and Yoda splitting up in the movie was pretty stupid too. That and Obi-Wan not even making sure Anakin died.

Meh... yeah, there was not much use to it but I guess I'd have expected each to win their fight. (How did Yoda lose again? )
Any Obi-Wan... well, Anakin was pretty much dead, it's mostly a surprise he lived... or Obi-Wan never intended to really kill him but merely ounish him? No idea.


On the most recent strip... Yay for player-character separation. Jim's acting skills are truly amazing...

[hamishspence]

In the novelization, Yoda realizes he's simply outclassed by Sidious- since he's been training all these 800+ odd years, to fight the last war, whereas the Sith have reinvented themselves, giving them the edge.

When they first split up:

Obi-Wan: "Palpatine took on four of the greatest swordsmen in the Jedi Order. By himself. Even together, we wouldn't have a chance."

Yoda: "True. But apart, a chance we might create."

It doesn't work, of course.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

In the novelization, Yoda realizes he's simply outclassed by Sidious- since he's been training all these 800+ odd years, to fight the last war, whereas the Sith have reinvented themselves, giving them the edge.

When they first split up:

Obi-Wan: "Palpatine took on four of the greatest swordsmen in the Jedi Order. By himself. Even together, we wouldn't have a chance."

Yoda: "True. But apart, a chance we might create."

It doesn't work, of course.

Personally, if I had been yoda I would have said, "Look obi boy, ive been training for hundreds of years, obviously I have the best shot here. You hang back while I fight him and concentrate on disrupting palpatines movements. Try to trip him, or slow his movement speed, even a little. That should break his concentration and make it possible to kill him." Only, you know, with really mixed up grammar. Honestly, that scene where sideous is chucking senator seats at yoda would have been the perfect time for obi wan to throw a rock at his head or something. Of course, that scene where yoda is trying to hold on and slips off really annoyed me. The guy can leap like an energizer bunny on crack speed and whiskey, but he cant do a chin up?

[Cracklord]

Eh, fatigue gets to the best of us. It's easy to criticize and over-estimate abilities sitting at a chair, watching a computer screen, but after fighting his way into a castle then duking it out with Sidious like that he's got to be feeling the burn. After an hour at the Gym, I'm in no shape to do a chin up either.
Alternately, he uses The Force to argument himself, as, despite being pretty spry for an old guy, he's got limits. Now as told to me, The Force depends on confidence. He starts to think he might lose, and so he enters a vicious cycle, and his control goes away. And suddenly he's a frail guy getting on the years and hanging to the edge of a Occupational Health and Safety disaster if there ever was one.

[Thalnawr]

Originally Posted by Traab

Of course, that scene where yoda is trying to hold on and slips off really annoyed me. The guy can leap like an energizer bunny on crack speed and whiskey, but he cant do a chin up?

It's actually pretty logical, honestly. Yoda was pretty dependent on the power of the force to move like that, due to his extreme age and infirmity. It could be that you have to refresh the power from time to time, and his strength/dexterity buff just ran out moments before... I guess we'll see how they run it in the comic within the next month.

Edit: Or Cracklord's explanation for why it ran out, crazy ninjas....

[Traab]

I dunno, he was strong enough to gouge fingermarks into what looks like metal, but not able to pull himself up? I realize it was all dramatic and such, it just seemed a bit off. Though I suppose that if he was relying on force enhancements, going up against an evil sith lord, he might be able to suppress his abilities somewhat. Sort of like two force pushes cancelling each other out.

[Kato]

Yeah... I'm with Traab on that one. Jedi can lift giant massive pieces of junk so he they should be just as easily able to lift themselves if they can't do it by their own strength.So unless Yoda really just ran out of juice which seems unlikely it was a pretty dumb way to create tension in the fight... imo.

[Traab]

Its been awhile, was the fingernail mark fall at the very end of the fight? Or did he have to dodge flying saucers for awhile after he dropped? If that was the very end then it IS entirely possible that he ran out of energy.

[Thufir]

It was at the very end. But there was no indication of him being tired out.
Also, then he says how he failed and must go into exile, which makes exactly ero sense. That fight was a draw at worst.

Also, the start of the fight, the two of them looked basically evenly matched. Cut away, cut back and suddenly Palpatine is flinging senate seats down at Yoday. How did they get to that position?

[tgva8889]

Also, how is Yoda fatigued and yet Palpatine, who is just as old (relative by race) is not?

[The Glyphstone]

Sith maaaaaaaaagic.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Thufir

It was at the very end. But there was no indication of him being tired out.
Also, then he says how he failed and must go into exile, which makes exactly ero sense. That fight was a draw at worst.

Also, the start of the fight, the two of them looked basically evenly matched. Cut away, cut back and suddenly Palpatine is flinging senate seats down at Yoday. How did they get to that position?

They got that way because they got knocked back out of melee range and instead of charging back in, sideous thought it would be a good idea to wear yoda out by making him dodge block or deflect heavy objects. Yes, yes, "size matters not" but obviously it DOES matter, or else yoda would have just made a gesture and crushed the entire senate building into a 5 foot by 5 foot cube with sideous paste in the center or something. And it WAS a loss. Yoda had to retreat, sideous is still alive and in control of the empire, yoda lost.

As for why is yoda weaker? My vote goes with, sideous has been training all this time, over all these years, while yoda has spent more time sitting on his ass running the jedi council, so he is in less of a fighting trim perhaps? Plus, considering virtually everything yoda does in a fight requires the force, including just MOVING, it makes sense that he would wear out sooner.

[tgva8889]

Originally Posted by Traab

As for why is yoda weaker? My vote goes with, sideous has been training all this time, over all these years, while yoda has spent more time sitting on his ass running the jedi council, so he is in less of a fighting trim perhaps? Plus, considering virtually everything yoda does in a fight requires the force, including just MOVING, it makes sense that he would wear out sooner.

When would Sideous have had time to train? He was either a Senator or a GRAND CHANCELLOR for pretty much the entire series. When he wasn't doing that he was putting his evil plans in motion. He was also constantly using the Force to mask his presence as a Dark Jedi and his appearance. I'm just confused as to how that makes any sense.

Also, Sideous has to use the force to "move" the same way Yoda does in that fight, so that's not much of an excuse.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by tgva8889

When would Sideous have had time to train? He was either a Senator or a GRAND CHANCELLOR for pretty much the entire series. When he wasn't doing that he was putting his evil plans in motion. He was also constantly using the Force to mask his presence as a Dark Jedi and his appearance. I'm just confused as to how that makes any sense.

Also, Sideous has to use the force to "move" the same way Yoda does in that fight, so that's not much of an excuse.

Yeah but the difference between yoda and sideous is that yoda can barely limp along with a cane without using the force, its a matter of scale. Sideous may need to use the force to further enhance his abilities, but he isnt starting at the level of near cripple like yoda is. Plus, the size difference would make it likely that yoda needs to use MORE of the force to match sideous on a purely physical level. Learn to apply your size modifiers people!

[NEO|Phyte]

Also, as someone already mentioned, the force requires focus to use effectively, and the sith tend to try and screw with said focus.

[The_Snark]

The more reasonable explanation is that Yoda realizes that ganging up on someone in a lightsaber duel never works out. The laws of dramatics in Star Wars clearly favor single combat, and bringing more along is just asking for trouble. At best they'll be injured and taken out of the fight without being killed; at worst, you all die because your reliance on superior numbers has marked you as a Bad Guy.

Observe: Episode I's battle with Darth Maul is a stalemate until they're separated and Qui-Gon dies, allowing Obi-Wan to defeat him single-handedly. Episode II's duel with Dooku? Anakin and Obi-Wan try to take him on together and are soundly thrashed; Yoda comes in and challenges him to single combat and wins. Yoda knows how this works.

The rematch early in Episode III goes better, but the pattern remains clear: Anakin only wins after Dooku disposes of Obi-Wan. He's lucky they made this mistake too early in the movie to kill off a protagonist.

I'm not sure we should count the duels with General Grievous, as he's clearly kind of a pansy in the movies, but the rule holds true here as well: Anakin and Obi-Wan fail to catch him together, Obi-Wan succeeds working alone.

Lastly, look at the attempt to arrest Palpatine. Mace Windu brought along four Jedi Masters so they could all gang up on him, and they all die in the first thirty seconds so that he can have a dramatic duel with Palpatine. Which he loses.

The observational evidence is clear!

(Less facetiously, Yoda probably imagined that Obi-Wan would be quickly killed if he brought him along to face Palpatine. Considering what happened to Mace Windu's companions, he might have been right. They could have gone to face Anakin together, but he didn't think Obi-Wan needed his help, and he was right about that, too.)

[Traab]

(Less facetiously, Yoda probably imagined that Obi-Wan would be quickly killed if he brought him along to face Palpatine. Considering what happened to Mace Windu's companions, he might have been right. They could have gone to face Anakin together, but he didn't think Obi-Wan needed his help, and he was right about that, too.)

You may be right, but you also need to consider experience. Obi wan has had a lot of experience, relatively speaking, fighting the sith. He killed horn head, after fighting him twice. He fought dooku twice, he has been one of the jedi who has faced against the sith the most out of this entire generation. Thats ignoring all his clone wars combat experience and killing grievous.

Yeah he likely would have been outgunned in a one on one fight, but the smart money would have had obi wan hang back and wait for openings to take pot shots at sideous, or to break his concentration should he start to get the upper hand. He is skilled enough to not be wiped out like a fricking padawan as mace's buddies were, so if sideous DID go after him to take him out, then he would have left himself wide open to yodas counter.

[Thalnawr]

Originally Posted by The_Snark

Lastly, look at the attempt to arrest Palpatine. Mace Windu brought along four Jedi Masters so they could all gang up on him, and they all die in the first thirty seconds so that he can have a dramatic duel with Palpatine. Which he loses.

Windu would have won that one, if it hadn't been for Palpatine having brain-washed Anakin into thinking he needed him to save Padme. My guess is that Palpy had been sending Anakin the visions of Padme dying, just to point the whiny fool in the right direction.

[Draxx]

Originally Posted by Thalnawr

Windu would have won that one, if it hadn't been for Palpatine having brain-washed Anakin into thinking he needed him to save Padme. My guess is that Palpy had been sending Anakin the visions of Padme dying, just to point the whiny fool in the right direction.

I disagree. I say Palpatine threw the match. I mean, he purposely didn't finish Mace Windu with one swipe BECAUSE he was brainwashing Anakin.

[Brom]

Originally Posted by Traab

You may be right, but you also need to consider experience. Obi wan has had a lot of experience, relatively speaking, fighting the sith. He killed horn head, after fighting him twice. He fought dooku twice, he has been one of the jedi who has faced against the sith the most out of this entire generation. Thats ignoring all his clone wars combat experience and killing grievous.

Yeah he likely would have been outgunned in a one on one fight, but the smart money would have had obi wan hang back and wait for openings to take pot shots at sideous, or to break his concentration should he start to get the upper hand. He is skilled enough to not be wiped out like a fricking padawan as mace's buddies were, so if sideous DID go after him to take him out, then he would have left himself wide open to yodas counter.

Going along with the book trend, Mace's, 'buddies' weren't 'padawans that got one shotted' they were fellow Jedi Council members. And, despite Obi-Wan's apparent on screen success, he's described as not being of any particular note as a lightsaber duelist.

[Ganurath]

So... Anakin kills Padme so she doesn't ruin her own good name?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Originally Posted by Ganurath

So... Anakin kills Padme so she doesn't ruin her own good name?

This makes as much sense as the next thing.

[tgva8889]

Originally Posted by The_Snark

Lastly, look at the attempt to arrest Palpatine. Mace Windu brought along four Jedi Masters so they could all gang up on him, and they all die in the first thirty seconds so that he can have a dramatic duel with Palpatine. Which he loses.

Mace: Don't forget, we'll have to use the Ancient Jedi Defense technique of standing there while our enemy kills us.
Other Jedi: Got it!
Mace: Hehehe...

Seriously, I know Ian McDiarmid was too old to do too much complicated and extravagant sword-fighting, but at least make it believable, guys. On the other hand, this scene did inspire my friend and I to design the Sith Death Stab, so there's that.

[ThePhantasm]

Look, we can come up with any force-related reason for why they split up, why Yoda retreated, etc. Those are easy to whip out while sitting at a computer chair as well. But I think it is pretty obvious that the reason they split up was so we could have two fight scenes at the end of the film. It was a plot contrivance.

The EU can explain anything, but in the movie's terms, it was a bad idea to split up. The suggestion that Yoda was just tired and made a stupid decision doesn't sit well with me either - that makes the plot contrivance worse, in my opinion.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Ganurath

So... Anakin kills Padme so she doesn't ruin her own good name?

.... noooo, anakin kills padme because he thinks she betrayed him and brought obi wan to stop him.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Originally Posted by Traab

.... noooo, anakin kills padme because he thinks she betrayed him and brought obi wan to stop him.

I don't think that's funny enough. I'm expecting something more from them.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

I don't think that's funny enough. I'm expecting something more from them.

Oh you mean in game. Im guessing that obi wan will bluff his ass off, "Thanks for leading me right to him Padme, now we can kill him and seize power for ourselves!" "NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"

[Thalnawr]

Originally Posted by Draxx

I disagree. I say Palpatine threw the match. I mean, he purposely didn't finish Mace Windu with one swipe BECAUSE he was brainwashing Anakin.

Would you honestly fight any less than your best, when facing someone who's known to be the best swordsman of the Jedi Order?