Dragon Age II, Part 2: The Qun is pretty deep, you wouldn't understand it.

[Candle Jack]

Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese)

According to lore, half-dwarves are possible (unlike half-elves) I think.

Actually, dialogue in Legacy indicates that Sandal himself may be the child of an Aeducan noble and a human or possibly even elven mistress.

Originally Posted by Delusion

Defeating Darkspawn?

Which can be done with regular magic. Also, the darkspawn were partially created through the use of blood magic, as the Magister Lords sacrificed dozens of slaves to enter the Black City.

[Avilan the Grey]

Originally Posted by Zevox

So, to the many other problems with the Templars and the circle system we can add flagrant hypocrisy.

"Blood magic is forbidden and evil! Except when it's useful to us, anyway, then it's fine and necessary. But don't tell the mages that."

Zevox

Um... this is not news. This was showed openly if you played the Mage origin in Origins.

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

Um... this is not news. This was showed openly if you played the Mage origin in Origins.

It was showed in the Mage origin that they used enchanted blood in the phylacteries. It was not confirmed in there that this was actual blood magic, as opposed to magic cast upon the blood samples.

Zevox

[Avilan the Grey]

Originally Posted by Zevox

It was showed in the Mage origin that they used enchanted blood in the phylacteries. It was not confirmed in there that this was actual blood magic, as opposed to magic cast upon the blood samples.

Zevox

One of the Warden's responses to the revelation was "So the Templars use Blood Magic" or something to that effect.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

If I was raised to be a proper dwarf noble, wouldn't I think the idea of falling in love with and sleeping with a human or elf pointless at best or repulsive at worst?

Your dwarf noble's views on sex with a human or an elf are up to you, but you seem dangerously close to trying to dictate everyone's dwarf noble's views again.

Originally Posted by Candle Jack

Which can be done with regular magic. Also, the darkspawn were partially created through the use of blood magic, as the Magister Lords sacrificed dozens of slaves to enter the Black City.

If one treats the Chantry version of events as significantly related to reality, darkspawn were created by the Maker. Unless you're suggesting that the Maker (or whatever really rules the Black City) couldn't turn mages into darkspawn unless they were already blood mages (in which case whoever created the mirror in the Dalish Warden's origin apparently had a power this entity lacked)...

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Zevox

And there is evidence against that assertion even from the start of DA:O itself. Jowan is strongly implied to have learned his blood magic from books, which the First Enchanter had since confiscated and was intending to lock safely away.

And it also says the book directly tells you how to contact demons. I more or less took that as how the book teaches blood magic.

Not the case at all. As I said earlier, the tragedy in Merrill's story is a result of how others react to her, not anything she ever does. And Jowan is guilty only of poisoning Arle Howe, which was a crime and an error in judgment on his part to be sure, but had nothing to do with his blood magic (aside from the probability that he accepted Loghain's request in this regard partially or primarily as a way to escape execution by the Templars).

If that's what you got out of it. All I got from Merrill was the girl didn't listen to anyone who tell her repeatedly she's acting stupid. Finally her mother figure sacrifices herself so that Merrill doesn't cause further harm. Yeah the mother figure acted like an idiot as well, but the whole situation would have been avoided if Merrill wasn't making deals with demons.

And Jowan's books on Blood Magic were what allowed Connor to contact the demon and nearly destroy Redcliffe. He also wouldn't have even had to run out of the Circle if he wasn't a blood mage in the first place. I find it so hard to even come to terms with this level of idiocy. He knows it's illegal, he knows that getting caught will end up in his death. And he is literally surrounded by templars. And he does it anyway. Wow.

[Yora]

Well, some people think that sounds like a better idea than staying in the Circle.

Also the problem with the blood mages isn't the blood magic, but the fact that they have no social acceptance. That forces them to do things alone and in secret and to get their knowledge from untrustworthy sources.
If you could learn blood magic openly from books and consult your masters about any problems, things would not turn that bad that often.
Merrill was still unreasonable and reckless, but it could have been avoided if Marethari had been more open about the subject and explained the dangers better. Telling a young mage blood magic is evil and dangerous "because it is!" won't make them see that it really is dangerous.
A simple

Spoiler

"a demon is trying to trick you into freeing him"

could have made everything different. But no, she had to be cryptic about it and merely ask her to trust her.

I sense a metaphor for educating teens about difficult subjects.

[karpik777]

Originally Posted by Dienekes

And it also says the book directly tells you how to contact demons. I more or less took that as how the book teaches blood magic.

Did it? I don't seem to recall that... Though I admit I haven't read it in a while.

If that's what you got out of it. All I got from Merrill was the girl didn't listen to anyone who tell her repeatedly she's acting stupid. Finally her mother figure sacrifices herself so that Merrill doesn't cause further harm. Yeah the mother figure acted like an idiot as well, but the whole situation would have been avoided if Merrill wasn't making deals with demons.

Or if the mother took some men and ordered them to block the cave with some rocks/whatever else. Also, what harm had Merill caused herself that you use the term "further harm"? Everything that happens in her story is due to people being afraid of her powers.

And Jowan's books on Blood Magic were what allowed Connor to contact the demon and nearly destroy Redcliffe. He also wouldn't have even had to run out of the Circle if he wasn't a blood mage in the first place. I find it so hard to even come to terms with this level of idiocy. He knows it's illegal, he knows that getting caught will end up in his death. And he is literally surrounded by templars. And he does it anyway. Wow.

He would have problems due to his love with Lily - blood magic or not. Also, did Connor actually use the books or was it a case of an untrained mage with a desire (to save his father) strong enough to attract a demon?

[Calemyr]

Originally Posted by karpik777

He would have problems due to his love with Lily - blood magic or not. Also, did Connor actually use the books or was it a case of an untrained mage with a desire (to save his father) strong enough to attract a demon?

Irvine already knew about Jowan and Lily. It wasn't until the accusation of blood magic came to light that they took it seriously, and it was Lily's part in Jowan's escape that painted her in Gregor's eyes as more than just another love-struck fool. Humans being what they are, you have to imagine that being cooped up in a place like that 24/7 would lead to a lot of that kind of stuff - especially if Wynne and Anders were being relatively honest in their jokes on the matter. The dalliance was never the problem, it was always the blood magic.

[Knight13]

If that's what you got out of it. All I got from Merrill was the girl didn't listen to anyone who tell her repeatedly she's acting stupid. Finally her mother figure sacrifices herself so that Merrill doesn't cause further harm. Yeah the mother figure acted like an idiot as well, but the whole situation would have been avoided if Merrill wasn't making deals with demons.

I would point out that Merrill hadn't actually caused any harm yet. Sure that one guy in her Act 2 quest died, but that's because he ran off like an idiot straight into the Varterral. If Marethari hadn't gone and gotten herself possessed, there's no real guarantee that anything would have gone wrong with Merrill's ritual (yes yes, the demon was trying to trick her, but we don't know that it would have succeeded). And even if Merrill had gotten possessed, Hawke and Co would have been there to stop her before she could hurt anyone else.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by Zevox

And there is evidence against that assertion even from the start of DA:O itself. Jowan is strongly implied to have learned his blood magic from books, which the First Enchanter had since confiscated and was intending to lock safely away.

Actually, I only remember one source in either game saying that to become a blood mage you have to consort with a demon. That source is Anders; setting aside the "how does he know?" thing, he also contradicts it another time, as has been noted.

In Dragon Age 1, if you're a blood mage when you show up at the Circle, Wynne questions you about it. You can tell her that you were taught blood magic as part of your Warden training, and she says, "That's impossible, you had to learn it from a demon,""Oh, okay then."

I think most of the "over and over and over" sources come from Anteros wanting the templars' treatment of mages to be more justified than it is.

[karpik777]

Originally Posted by Calemyr

Irvine already knew about Jowan and Lily. It wasn't until the accusation of blood magic came to light that they took it seriously, and it was Lily's part in Jowan's escape that painted her in Gregor's eyes as more than just another love-struck fool. Humans being what they are, you have to imagine that being cooped up in a place like that 24/7 would lead to a lot of that kind of stuff - especially if Wynne and Anders were being relatively honest in their jokes on the matter. The dalliance was never the problem, it was always the blood magic.

Irving knew - that doesn't mean the templars did. Also, we know that they heavily "discourage" (as Wynne said) unions between mages - I have a feeling that an union between a mage and a cleric (once Lily would advance in rank) would be even more of a problem. Not to mention they would have to flee if they'd want to be together - blood magic or not.

[Yora]

Remember, it's Dragon Age. People lie or are mistaken about things.

[Delusion]

I was thinkign about how high the numbersof bloomdages is in Kirkwall, and I started thinking wether the Meredith's lyriumidolsword-thingy might have had effects on others than just Meredith? It did make the mercenaies in Bartrand(sp?) mansion go mad IIRC.

So might it have been affecting the dozens of mages who lived in the samefortress the idol was located for years?

[Kish]

I don't think that's really needed. One thing we are told over and over, is that a number of mages turn to blood magic because of templar persecution. So, in a city where the Circle amounts to a concentration camp, you can count the number of non-blood mages on the fingers of one hand; this is news?

(Also, Bartrand was apparently forcing the mercenaries to eat lyrium, which is all kinds of poisonous even without the curse on the idol.)

[karpik777]

Originally Posted by Delusion

I was thinkign about how high the numbersof bloomdages is in Kirkwall, and I started thinking wether the Meredith's lyriumidolsword-thingy might have had effects on others than just Meredith? It did make the mercenaies in Bartrand(sp?) mansion go mad IIRC.

I'd say it's possible, but unlikely.

Generally, Kirkwall has several problems:

• the fact that the Templars are extremely oppresive makes more mages go the blood mage route to fight them
• the veil is extremely thin in the city
• (connected with the above) the city has a history of powerfull blood magic users residing in it - this can attract others, who look for lost secrets/power
• Corypheus' prison is relatively close - this cannot be healthy ;)

[Knight13]

Actually, the reason why there's so many blood mages in Kirkwall is because the Veil is extremely thin there, making it absurdly easy for mages to learn blood magic and/or get possessed.

Also, the corrupting effect of the lyrium idol may have been somewhat lessened when it was reforged, considering that it drove Bartrand completely insane in the gap between Acts 1 and 2 (how long was that? 3 years?), whereas Meredith is still mostly lucid until the end of the final sequence.

[Anteros]

Originally Posted by Kish

Actually, I only remember one source in either game saying that to become a blood mage you have to consort with a demon. That source is Anders; setting aside the "how does he know?" thing, he also contradicts it another time, as has been noted.

In Dragon Age 1, if you're a blood mage when you show up at the Circle, Wynne questions you about it. You can tell her that you were taught blood magic as part of your Warden training, and she says, "That's impossible, you had to learn it from a demon,""Oh, okay then."

I think most of the "over and over and over" sources come from Anteros wanting the templars' treatment of mages to be more justified than it is.

Except I never even played Awakening or DA2. So isn't it funny that I knew it comes from consorting with a demon even though I never actually talked to Anders.

Also, I never even mentioned a single thing about the Templar's general treatment of mages. If you must know, I thought it was repulsive and stupid the way they were treated. We were only talking about blood magic. If you want to have a discussion, you should address the things I actually say rather than making things up and addressing them instead.

[Beowulf DW]

Originally Posted by karpik777

Irving knew - that doesn't mean the templars did. Also, we know that they heavily "discourage" (as Wynne said) unions between mages - I have a feeling that an union between a mage and a cleric (once Lily would advance in rank) would be even more of a problem. Not to mention they would have to flee if they'd want to be together - blood magic or not.

Asunder spoiler:

Spoiler

Unions between mages and templars even more so

[Candle Jack]

Originally Posted by Delusion

I was thinkign about how high the numbersof bloomdages is in Kirkwall, and I started thinking wether the Meredith's lyriumidolsword-thingy might have had effects on others than just Meredith? It did make the mercenaies in Bartrand(sp?) mansion go mad IIRC.

The lyrium idol actually didn't drive those mercenaries insane; its effects were limited to Bartand. However, they couldn't hear the song of the idol, so Bartrand tried to "help them" by feeding them lyrium. That made them crazed.

[VanBuren]

Originally Posted by Anteros

Except I never even played Awakening or DA2. So isn't it funny that I knew it comes from consorting with a demon even though I never actually talked to Anders.

Yes, it is rather funny that you're insisting repetition and not citing specific moments.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by Anteros

Except I never even played Awakening or DA2. So isn't it funny that I knew it comes from consorting with a demon even though I never actually talked to Anders.

Yes, it is somewhat funny that you somehow got the idea that blood magic requires a pact with a demon without ever playing the one game in which any character even suggests as much. And funny that you would claim it's said "over and over and over" without ever seeing anything in the game say it at all.

Less funny that you're still insisting on it.

Still less funny that you're acting aggrieved that your assertions of something which is not true, are not being treated as authoritative statements of fact.

[Joran]

Originally Posted by Dienekes

If that's what you got out of it. All I got from Merrill was the girl didn't listen to anyone who tell her repeatedly she's acting stupid. Finally her mother figure sacrifices herself so that Merrill doesn't cause further harm. Yeah the mother figure acted like an idiot as well, but the whole situation would have been avoided if Merrill wasn't making deals with demons.

The thing I got out of it was that the role of Keeper of a Dalish clan is two-fold. One is to seek out to learn and preserve knowledge of the old Elves of Arlathan. The second is to safeguard and keep the clan safe.

So, Merrill and Marethari are presented with an ancient artifact of Arlathan, the Eluvian. Merrill goes to the one end of the role and views it as an opportunity to study and learn about the ancient elves. Marethari views it as a danger; it already ate one elf and forced another to leave and become a warden.

So, Marethari forbids Merrill to study it, but Merrill disobeys, gets some help from a demon, and manages to cleanse it of the darkspawn taint. Emboldened by her success, in the face of stern opposition of Marethari, Merrill decides to continue.

Then Marethari manages to handle this in the worst way possible:

1) Tells the rest of her clan that Merrill is dangerous and alienates her from the rest of her clan.
2) Gets possessed so the only way that Merrill can free her and save herself is to kill Marethari. Never mind that Marethari does what she fears Merrill would have done: let loose a demon into the material plane.
3) Forces Merrill to confront her clan without any clue of what Marethari was up to.

So, the Elvish clan is told by their honored elder that one of their own is consorting with demons and is expelled from the clan. Then have said exile come back with blood of the honored elder on her hands... What exactly was Marethari trying to accomplish here?

[Beowulf DW]

Originally Posted by Joran

The thing I got out of it was that the role of Keeper of a Dalish clan is two-fold. One is to seek out to learn and preserve knowledge of the old Elves of Arlathan. The second is to safeguard and keep the clan safe.

So, Merrill and Marethari are presented with an ancient artifact of Arlathan, the Eluvian. Merrill goes to the one end of the role and views it as an opportunity to study and learn about the ancient elves. Marethari views it as a danger; it already ate one elf and forced another to leave and become a warden.

So, Marethari forbids Merrill to study it, but Merrill disobeys, gets some help from a demon, and manages to cleanse it of the darkspawn taint. Emboldened by her success, in the face of stern opposition of Marethari, Merrill decides to continue.

Then Marethari manages to handle this in the worst way possible:

1) Tells the rest of her clan that Merrill is dangerous and alienates her from the rest of her clan.
2) Gets possessed so the only way that Merrill can free her and save herself is to kill Marethari. Never mind that Marethari does what she fears Merrill would have done: let loose a demon into the material plane.
3) Forces Merrill to confront her clan without any clue of what Marethari was up to.

So, the Elvish clan is told by their honored elder that one of their own is consorting with demons and is expelled from the clan. Then have said exile come back with blood of the honored elder on her hands... What exactly was Marethari trying to accomplish here?

Yeah, Merithari was definitely holding the idiot ball on that one.

"Hey, Merril, that demon plans to take you when you complete the Eluvian."
"Oh, thank you, Keeper, you've saved not only my life but the lives of the whole clan."

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Originally Posted by Kish

Your dwarf noble's views on sex with a human or an elf are up to you, but you seem dangerously close to trying to dictate everyone's dwarf noble's views again.

Well I'm trying to pick the origin that, when coupled with Dragon Age II, creates THE ONE TRUE NARRATIVE. The path with the best storytelling and internal consistency. For instance, if one plays a Dalish Elf Warden, they should then pursue Witch Hunt as it ties back to the Origin, and have the subsequent Hawke romance Merrill so that Dragon Age II has a solid connection back to the previous story. Similarly, a Mage Warden is best played as human so they have a connection to Hawke in the sequel. It's all about the connections, see. And I feel that among them, the Dwarf origins have the weakest ties to the events of the DLC and the sequels. Their stories are pretty much wrapped up after gaining Orzammar's support, and I feel that weakens the narrative of the two games as a whole.

[Candle Jack]

Merrill fully acknowledges and accepts the possibility that she may become possessed by the demon. The whole reason she asks Hawke to come along on A New Path is to put her down if she becomes an abomination.

[Joran]

Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

Well I'm trying to pick the origin that, when coupled with Dragon Age II, creates THE ONE TRUE NARRATIVE. The path with the best storytelling and internal consistency. For instance, if one plays a Dalish Elf Warden, they should then pursue Witch Hunt as it ties back to the Origin, and have the subsequent Hawke romance Merrill so that Dragon Age II has a solid connection back to the previous story.

I did exactly this.

Dalish Warden, who becomes the Warden-Commander.
Hawke that romances Merrill... and then slaughters her tribe.

If the Warden-Commander and Champion Hawke ever meet... it's going to be awkward...

[Candle Jack]

Unless that meeting occurs in Flemeth's belly, of course.

(My theory why Hawke and the Warden both disappear is because Flemeth ate them. And not in the good way.)

[Beowulf DW]

Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

Well I'm trying to pick the origin that, when coupled with Dragon Age II, creates THE ONE TRUE NARRATIVE. The path with the best storytelling and internal consistency. For instance, if one plays a Dalish Elf Warden, they should then pursue Witch Hunt as it ties back to the Origin, and have the subsequent Hawke romance Merrill so that Dragon Age II has a solid connection back to the previous story. Similarly, a Mage Warden is best played as human so they have a connection to Hawke in the sequel. It's all about the connections, see. And I feel that among them, the Dwarf origins have the weakest ties to the events of the DLC and the sequels. Their stories are pretty much wrapped up after gaining Orzammar's support, and I feel that weakens the narrative of the two games as a whole.

Narrative consistency is what I was going for, too. The mage Warden being related to Hawke kind of reminded me of the MacLeods from Highlander.

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by Dienekes

And it also says the book directly tells you how to contact demons. I more or less took that as how the book teaches blood magic.

I do not recall that. Unfortunately though the wiki's page on Jowan is lacking in details in this regard, and I'm not going to start up another file in the game just to track this down, so we're at a bit of impasse on that one.

Originally Posted by Dienekes

If that's what you got out of it.

It certainly is.

Originally Posted by Dienekes

All I got from Merrill was the girl didn't listen to anyone who tell her repeatedly she's acting stupid. Finally her mother figure sacrifices herself so that Merrill doesn't cause further harm.

Except that Merrill never caused any harm.

Originally Posted by Dienekes

Yeah the mother figure acted like an idiot as well, but the whole situation would have been avoided if Merrill wasn't making deals with demons.

Blaming Merrill for how others reacted to her is something I cannot possibly agree with. It's blaming a person for the actions of others, for something they cannot possibly control. Marethari is the one responsible for how Merrill's story turned out, not Merrill.

Originally Posted by Dienekes

And Jowan's books on Blood Magic were what allowed Connor to contact the demon and nearly destroy Redcliffe.

That I definitely do not remember, and do not believe. As I said, the First Enchanter had already taken Jowan's books on blood magic before Jowan left. He did not have any. What I recall from the game is that the Desire Demon contacted Connor, and used his desire to save his father to forge a deal with him.

Originally Posted by Dienekes

He also wouldn't have even had to run out of the Circle if he wasn't a blood mage in the first place.

He was trying to escape in order to live a free life with the woman he loved. That much he'd have done regardless of being a blood mage. It would not surprise me in the least if he'd also have attempted escape upon being caught even without being a blood mage.

Originally Posted by Dienekes

I find it so hard to even come to terms with this level of idiocy. He knows it's illegal, he knows that getting caught will end up in his death. And he is literally surrounded by templars. And he does it anyway. Wow.

I find it impossible to condemn him for rebelling against such an inherently unjust system myself. Simply because the Chantry and Templars forbid it is no reason to simply accept their judgments on blood magic, especially if one intends to ditch them regardless, as he did.

Originally Posted by Kish

Actually, I only remember one source in either game saying that to become a blood mage you have to consort with a demon. That source is Anders; setting aside the "how does he know?" thing, he also contradicts it another time, as has been noted.

I'm pretty sure there was something in Origins that indicated it, as I recall having a discussion about Jowan's case and how it provided contradictory evidence to that claim after playing Origins the first time but before Awakening came out. Can't recall exactly what it was though.

Originally Posted by Kish

In Dragon Age 1, if you're a blood mage when you show up at the Circle, Wynne questions you about it. You can tell her that you were taught blood magic as part of your Warden training, and she says, "That's impossible, you had to learn it from a demon,""Oh, okay then."

Heh, interesting point. Though I think that conversation is (or perhaps was) bugged on the 360 - I recall hearing about it online back when I first played Origins, but I was a blood mage in my first file when I went to the Circle (the last quest I did that time around), and nobody ever commented on it.

Zevox