GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by Phosphate

Wait, what?!

Illusions are not real. In no way or form. Spells that manipulate light create energy, and therefore are Evocations.

I'd just like to point out here that manipulation is by no means the same as creation, at all.

For example, there are superheroes that can manipulate fire, but cannot produce it, whereas there are other superheroes that can both create and manipulate fire. (You may substitute "fire" for basically any other "elemental" ability.)

[peacenlove]

Originally Posted by Phosphate

Wait, what?!

Illusions are not real. In no way or form. Spells that manipulate light create energy, and therefore are Evocations.

Shadow Evocation disagrees.

[Phosphate]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

I'd just like to point out here that manipulation is by no means the same as creation, at all.

For example, there are superheroes that can manipulate fire, but cannot produce it, whereas there are other superheroes that can both create and manipulate fire. (You may substitute "fire" for basically any other "elemental" ability.)

The one that only manipulates the fire is a transmuter. Maybe I didn't express myself well enough.

Originally Posted by peacenlove

Shadow Evocation disagrees.

That is true only because WotC are fallacious. Hence, for instance, my Prc having a penalty to both normal and shadow evocation.

[C'nor]

But, simply manipulating light does not create energy. If you have existing light, and alter its direction magically, you haven't created any energy by doing so.

[Phosphate]

Originally Posted by C'nor

But, simply manipulating light does not create energy. If you have existing light, and alter its direction magically, you haven't created any energy by doing so.

I. Agree.
God, people on forums like to argue so much they miss it when their opponent admits he made a mistake.

[C'nor]

I may have missed a post, or misread you, I admit.

[boomwolf]

Originally Posted by C'nor

I'd like to point out that there are other ways of producing Illusions, if what you mean is "something that appears real but isn't". You could alter the feedback that the brain is receiving, for example.

I was also mentioning the fact half (or more?) of them are sneak-attack classes, in the "good-aligned ninjas hide in the light instead of the shadow!" cliche...

[C'nor]

*Shrugs*

I didn't really care, not having followed this contest; I was just pointing out his error to the person that said that the definition of Illusion was manipulated light.

[Hyooz]

Originally Posted by boomwolf

I was also mentioning the fact half (or more?) of them are sneak-attack classes, in the "good-aligned ninjas hide in the light instead of the shadow!" cliche...

Exactly two (out of nine) classes have sneak attack, and exactly one of them is anywhere near the "good-aligned ninjas hide in the light" idea (which I challenge you to post enough examples of to qualify it as "cliche"), and that one is mine, which hides in the light and the dark, neither of which having anything to do with alignment, but with literal, actual light and dark.

If you're going to paint with such a broad, dismissive brush, you might want to make sure you have a proper canvas, or you're going to end up looking very, very silly.

Because you'll be covered in paint.

[Phosphate]

Originally Posted by boomwolf

I was also mentioning the fact half (or more?) of them are sneak-attack classes, in the "good-aligned ninjas hide in the light instead of the shadow!" cliche...

Well, mine is a straight up in your face blaster/buffer...if played to the best of his ability. Because blasters need more love.

[unosarta]

Originally Posted by C'nor

I'd like to point out that there are other ways of producing Illusions, if what you mean is "something that appears real but isn't". You could alter the feedback that the brain is receiving, for example.

I know that this is kind of beside the point, however, when considering the way Illusions function in D&D, which is what I was talking about, they have some specific ways they work. For instance, if one were to alter the feedback that the brain is receiving, it would only work for a certain creature, unless you managed to alter the feedback of every brain of every creature that sees the illusion, which is highly unlikely. In addition, the fact that if a creature interacts with the Illusion it can break, implies that only one or two sense are being affected by the Illusion. How exactly would one create only sight, or sound, and not touch as well? That seems shaky, at best.

[C'nor]

If you can manipulate electricity (or lightning, since I doubt it would actually say that), which I'm sure there's some sort of spell for, you could control the electrical signals sent and received by the eye before they reach the brain. It would take a lot of practice to get right, but you could do it.

[unosarta]

I am talking specifically about spells of the Illusion school, even more specifically, figment spells.

Also, as frigging awesome as that would be, it still doesn't account for the fact that figment spells (I probably should have been more specific on that), or really Illusion spells in general, affect multiple creatures, which would be next to impossible with electric signals.

[Owrtho]

There are actually some illusion spells that work by altering only selected beings perception, such as phantasmal killer. There are also illusions that work by altering light, producing sound, or simulating other senses (such as olfactory illusions and tactile illusions as opposed to the more common auditory or visual illusions). In any case you can break through them since even if you perceive there is something there and can feel it, there isn't actually anything there and you can push through.

That said, outside spells, illusions can simply be things like slight of hand or other similar deceptions and performances (ventriloquists give the illusion the dummy is talking, mimes give the illusion they're interacting with something, etc.)

Owrtho

[Phosphate]

Originally Posted by C'nor

It would take a lot of practice to get right, but you could do it.

On the other hand, simply manipulating electricity in someone's visual receptors to permanently blind him is MUCH easier.

EITHER WAY, [Shadow] spells should be conjurations, not illusions. Or at the least, belong to both schools.

[C'nor]

True. And I bet that would be a lot harder to get rid of than magical blindness, too.

And yes, if you're bringing things in from another plane, that should be a Conjuration spell, though if it's an illusion then it should be in both.

[boomwolf]

Originally Posted by Hyooz

Exactly two (out of nine) classes have sneak attack, and exactly one of them is anywhere near the "good-aligned ninjas hide in the light" idea (which I challenge you to post enough examples of to qualify it as "cliche"), and that one is mine, which hides in the light and the dark, neither of which having anything to do with alignment, but with literal, actual light and dark.

If you're going to paint with such a broad, dismissive brush, you might want to make sure you have a proper canvas, or you're going to end up looking very, very silly.

But looking silly is my specialty...

Anyways I should have used another wording then "sneak-attack", because I meant to include all the bluffers/illusionist/real SA users etc in that...the wider concept of "light as shadow replacement/manipulating light to make shadow" includes exactly 4 of the 8 (counting is tech) classes posted, that is to say "half".

as for examples, this theme (light as "shadow" replacement/maker) as been made in almost every second battle-focused anime/cartoon/action tv ever to some extent...(from Mutant X to Samurai Jack)

This leads me to my final point, my "Blacklight Deciple" would be a very bad idea, and as such I scrap it (or it would have made 5 out of 9 as he manipulates both light and shadow)

So, instead, I will revisit one of my old creations, and base a class out of him.
Shurain, the demon/god, also known as The Purifier, The Burning Hatred, The Red Rain, The Eternal Blaze, AntiPelor.
The Chaotic Evil sun god Shurain, the only god who refuses to any prayer, the only god with no followers, the only god who rejects the mere concept of worship, he who drains his power directly from planes of fire, and all that burns becomes a part of him.

And the Purifiers of Shurain (the class) are twisted-minded individuals, picked by Shurain to carry his power, and unleash it to burn everything, the ones Shurain has determined to have the most destructive potential. (needless to say this class is intended for CE, but NE and CN can also get in)

Or should I make a few quotes, as a small preview:
"Glorious Shurain! lend me your light!"
"Shurain light my path, and burn all who stand in it"
"A fortunes death is to bath in the purifying light of Shurain, as it reduces you to nothing, consider yourself lucky."
"Cleanse! Purge! KILL!"
(read in homicidal screaming voice:)"MELT EVERYTHING MUST MELT!"

Fluff-wise you can't choose this class, you get chosen for it and get stuck with it's power, for better and worse. (I just love making classes that grant great power, but you can't fully control it!)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So...what's the ruling on metaphorical light for the class? Codename: Twilight's Guide (i.e. no REAL name for it yet ) uses a sort of spiritual light to act as a beacon for restless spirits. I think that's currently acceptable, but I wanted to make sure.

[ErrantX]

Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic

So...what's the ruling on metaphorical light for the class? Codename: Twilight's Guide (i.e. no REAL name for it yet ) uses a sort of spiritual light to act as a beacon for restless spirits. I think that's currently acceptable, but I wanted to make sure.

I'm intrigued. Proceed.

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Originally Posted by ErrantX

I'm intrigued. Proceed.

Excellent. *rubs hands together evilly*

This one is actually going to be rather difficult to word properly...ah well. I've got time.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The Twilight's Guide has been mostly posted. Comments and concerns are appreciated!

[Phosphate]

Hmm, nice stuff. Requirements sting a bit though.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Originally Posted by Phosphate

Hmm, nice stuff. Requirements sting a bit though.

Yeah...I've never really intended my Prestige Classes to be easy to enter though. It's my personal philosophy that the class should appeal to players on the merits of it being INTERESTING, mechanics be (more or less) damned. In short, it's not a case of "why would anyone not take this and/or take this with a character of X class," but rather a case of "can I make this interesting enough that someone will build a character around it? As such, no one is going to just discover that they happen to qualify for one of my PrCs. So the requirements sting a bit, but then again some of the abilities are QUITE good. I mean, a bunch of telekinesis spells helping you out? Dodging to another plane? Having an invincible, Constitution-draining sidekick? That's some rather serious punch there.

[Phosphate]

I don't mean it's hard to enter...mine's actually harder, considering you need 4 skills and level 4 spells, which are quite up there. I mean it hurts you (you will not need the ranks you invest in Survival, and old age is, well...also the alignment is incredibly restrictive)

One other thing. Your description of a "souled" creature being anything with Int, Wis and Cha...well outsiders and intelligent undead have Int, Wis and Cha, but that doesn't give them souls.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Originally Posted by Phosphate

I don't mean it's hard to enter...mine's actually harder, considering you need 4 skills and level 4 spells, which are quite up there. I mean it hurts you (you will not need the ranks you invest in Survival, and old age is, well...also the alignment is incredibly restrictive)

Ah, yes. The old age is there for the reason that I liked the association with being on Death's door and yet still living (hence Unquenchable Flame of Life, Spirit Sense [which requires a near-death experience], and Tomb-tainted Soul). It gives a very specific feeling that I wanted.

Survival is there because you ARE a guide, and the alignment is because, if anyone is going to be ferrying the spirits of the dead, it should be an unaligned individual who is not necessary swayed by the battle of good and evil.

One other thing. Your description of a "souled" creature being anything with Int, Wis and Cha...well outsiders and intelligent undead have Int, Wis and Cha, but that doesn't give them souls.

Not in the traditional sense, no. But the outsider type makes it rather clear that they ARE their souls, in my interpretation. So I think it still qualifies.

[Hyooz]

Djinn is back! Yay!

... Oh no! Djinn is back! My chances of winning -> shot.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Originally Posted by Hyooz

Djinn is back! Yay!

... Oh no! Djinn is back! My chances of winning -> shot.

Heh. Maybe not...this class is very strange.

Also, I lost a contest.

...once...

...in the partner contest...

...when I submitted a level 40 Prestige class...

...and we only were 1 vote behind...

...so I'm beatable!

[Lord_Gareth]

My gods, Djinn is back?

*Goes to see if the second impossible event occurs - Djinn Answers His Phone*

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

My gods, Djinn is back?

*Goes to see if the second impossible event occurs - Djinn Answers His Phone*

Nah...that would be crazy. Also, I'm actually busy.

[TravelLog]

Hey welcome back Djinn!