Opposing Factions ( Community World Building project )

[Calliope121]

Okay, So I would like to try another community world building project, because frankly, I find them fascinating. So the general idea, is that this world is run by two factions. They are constantly fighting, however neither can exist without the other. Other than that go crazy. I will occasionally be putting issues up to vote, the first one being, what are the factions. I will be taking votes and suggestions until this Friday.

[Arathnos]

I like it. Right off the bat, this world is built for adventuring. The inherent conflict and dependency of these two factions provides infinite fodder for PCs and all sorts of strife for this world.

Let's generate a list of dualities or opposing concepts.

Light vs. Dark
Good vs. Evil
Order vs. Chaos
Sun vs. Moon
Fire vs. Ice
Honesty vs. Lies/Deceit
Life vs. Death
Heaven vs. Hell
Knowledge vs. Ignorance
Mortals vs. The Planes
Demons vs. Devils
Magic vs. Physicality
Progress vs. Tradition

Those were the ones that immediately came to mind, if others can make their suggestions, we can pick a handful of favorites and then put them up for vote.

[DoomHat]

Why only two? Most of the best and most beloved gaming settings have something in the area of 4 to 10.
Legend of the Five Rings
Iron Kingdoms
Game of Thrones
Magic the Gathering
Everything ever published by White Wolf
Ect.

People are instinctively drawn to tribalism. The more varied the factions, the more likely someone out there will identify with one, and through it, get sucked into your game.

[Calliope121]

Very nice. I can think of a few more. I'm sorry for being unclear. By factions I meant more in the realms of general mentalities/professions/ideals than the actual stated factions
Rich vs poor
Technology vs magic
Educated vs un educated

[Arathnos]

I don't think the OPs intent is to have two exclusive factions and no other possibilites. Just that the central theme is based around the conflict between these two factions.

And yes, I was actually just suggesting the ideals as well. I don't really think of 'Hell' or 'Tradition' as factions, just the ideas that one might garner a faction around. :)

[The Witch-King]

Tyrannical dragonriders vs. freedom-loving dragonslayers

Surface world vs. underground world (it would be cool to see a world where the good guys were the ones who lived underground--maybe the good guys lost the war on the surface and everyone had to take refuge with the dwarves in underground strongholds)

Land vs. sea (again--it would be cool to see the good guys as the peaceful ocean dwellers and the bad guys as the intrusive surface-worlders come to plunder Atlantis (or whatever))

Reclaimationists vs. Colonists--some disaster has befallen the land and the refugees had to move to some where else--two factions form--one that's desperate to use what personnel and resources they have to reclaim their ancestral homeland and the other faction that's written off the old country and insists that the prudent and realistic thing to do is make a new life where they are no matter how inhospitable it is

Air vs. land--drawing from an old Star Trek episode--the conflict could be between rich, spoiled hedonistic cloud city dwellers and the enslaved miners and farmers forced to live on the barren surface and turn over the fruit of their labors to the cloud cities--the miners could retaliate by building flying pirate ships to take back the riches of the earth their people worked so hard to collect

Sun god worshippers vs. unbelievers--an Aztec-like cult is slaughtering thousands of innocent people to keep the sun god alive and strong so he can keep the world alive--the only thing is--it's true--the sun god needs those sacrifices to do his job--a small collective of unbelievers starts a massive effort to find another solution--providing an alternate means of survival for the sun god or supporting the worship of another god who doesn't need sacrifices to keep the world going and the Aztec cult wants to stop them--they wouldn't mind not having to kill all those people but the diminishing of the sun god's influence would erode their own power base...

[Othniel Edden]

Originally Posted by Calliope121

Very nice. I can think of a few more. I'm sorry for being unclear. By factions I meant more in the realms of general mentalities/professions/ideals than the actual stated factions
Rich vs poor
Technology vs magic
Educated vs un educated

of those only one doesn't give a significant advantage to one side(not the middle one). What I think you want to do is to create two philosophies that oppose one another but that that would both appeal to players and NPCS on both sides of the divide. A good example of this in RL was Confucianism vs. Legalism. They didn't believe opposite things, but when legalism was in power it was intolerant of other philosophies and tried to have them removed, even if they didn't have directly opposing "doctrine". An era of strife caused by one side gaining power and suppressing the other could do wonders for this setting to gain tension.

[The Witch-King]

Educated vs. uneducated

Originally Posted by Othniel Edden

of those only one doesn't give a significant advantage to one side(not the middle one).

What if primal might was naturally reduced by education? If magic and other forms of primal might were quirky and idiosyncratic and paradoxical and the educated faction was one of cold, hard, rationalist logic, then they might have a few powerful wizards backed by fighters and monks but among the uneducated sorcerers and druids were commonplace and backed by a huge horde of barbarians...

[Calliope121]

So far it seems like everyone has very good ideas. I will be compiling the options into the first post I made so you can see them all. If you want to vote for a specific one, please put your vote in bold so I can see it. Thanks!
Well I was going to compile them, but my computer crashed halfway through. I will get it done soon...

[Othniel Edden]

Originally Posted by The WitchKing

What if primal might was naturally reduced by education? If magic and other forms of primal might were quirky and idiosyncratic and paradoxical and the educated faction was one of cold, hard, rationalist logic, then they might have a few powerful wizards backed by fighters and monks but among the uneducated sorcerers and druids were commonplace and backed by a huge horde of barbarians...

Thats much more to me law vs. chaos or civilization vs. nature. Druids obviously have an education, that is they pass along knowledge through teaching, such as their secret language. Any such idea however is going to be more complex than a simple entropy vs. creation dynamic, it has to be for an entire setting to be based on it.

[Strormer]

Alright, playing into the druids and barbarians versus more formally educated society, what about massive cities connected by magical skyways, I'm picturing massive monorails that are powered by working-class mages which drive them similar to coal-powered trains. These cities are centers of technology (in the eberron sense of technology), but drain the natural resources of the world they're built upon and, because they're held high in the air by platforms and whatnot, blot out the sunlight.
Below them we put an extremely verdant natural world. This should be incredibly jungle-like and dense with enormous and voracious fauna and even flora which tries, by its nature, to destroy the civilization and reclaim the sky.
Both sides should be home to large societies which are powerfully devoted to their homes. More natural classes, druid, barbarian, etc should favor nature of course, but there could even be some crossover. Perhaps one tribe of druids has moved into the skycities and they are working to meld nature with the cities by producing floating gardens, while a group of wizards have moved into an ancient center of study that lay in ruins in the deep jungle and now fight off the civilization that nearly destroyed such ancient knowledge merely for the sake of progress.
This would give each side a powerfully vested interest in seeing their cause championed because it's their own home they're fighting for while at the same time allowing reasons for any individual class to exist on either side. Commoners may cling to the cities for protection, or they might live in harmony with nature after the traditions of their ancestors and defy the cities. Neither side should have enough of a regimented government to fully oppress the other.
Finally, I would put some form of mcguffin that prevents any group from attempting to outright devastate their opposition through force. Perhaps destroying the cities would result in some horrible fallout for the world's ecosystem and the cities cannot sustain themselves without the verdant energy of the natural world that they draw upon for power.
Anyway, its an idea. ^_^

[Arathnos]

I like that Strormer. As far as a 'mcguffin' goes, it doesn't take a lot of creative stretching. For the cities to destroy nature, it would have very obvious repercussions. You can't just destroy nature completely and expect the world to remain in balance.

For the natural world to bring down the sky cities would have a whole slew of consequences, none of which would be beneficial. First of all, destroying the sky cities would involve bringing them down, but where would they go? Straight down, into the jungle. That would devastate the lands beneath the city and cause the deaths of far too many creatures in addition to the demolished plant life. If the wild faction didn't choose to exterminate all the residents of the sky city, it would also have to account for a large number of refugees throwing off the ecosystem of the forest.

My major concern with the setting is that the conflict doesn't really seem to be conflict... I understand that the two factions don't have to be violently opposed or complete opposites, but why should they care? Why do the druids and barbarians care about what goes on high above? Are the cities having that big of an effect on the natural world? I feel like they would have a greater footprint if they were just normal cities, clearing out the lush jungle to make way for stone walls. And why should the sky citizens care about the jungle? If they are content to sit in their floating homes, why are they at odds with the natural world. Why does their 'progress' hurt the jungle?

[Strormer]

Originally Posted by Arathnos

My major concern with the setting is that the conflict doesn't really seem to be conflict... I understand that the two factions don't have to be violently opposed or complete opposites, but why should they care? Why do the druids and barbarians care about what goes on high above? Are the cities having that big of an effect on the natural world? I feel like they would have a greater footprint if they were just normal cities, clearing out the lush jungle to make way for stone walls. And why should the sky citizens care about the jungle? If they are content to sit in their floating homes, why are they at odds with the natural world. Why does their 'progress' hurt the jungle?

Well, the picture in my head was these massive city-plates on enormous pillars were A) blocking out the sun which plants, by nature, will always try to reach thus having plants automatically crawl up into the cities, and B) the cities are pulling natural energy out of the forest below, sorta like draining green mana in magic, to the point where the forest is fighting back.
As for the city dwellers caring, I would imagine the commoners would see it as a nusiance at worst, but the city leaders would know the truth, that the forest was fighting back, and could win. Think of the forest as more than just plants and bears, think of unbelievably powerful nature, like a primeval forest full of monsters on par with the tarrasque. (sp?)
But yeah, that's just what's in my head.

[Arathnos]

Cool cool, I enjoy it. I wasn't poking holes because I don't want to see it succeed, quite the opposite. Just making sure we had answers to those questions.

[The Witch-King]

Perhaps the reason the sky cities were built is because they have massive solar mana collectors that magically pull in all the sunlight for miles around the city forcing the underdwellers to dwell in perpetual twilight.

[Calliope121]

Yay it looks like we have a theme!!! Now details!!!!

[Strormer]

Originally Posted by Arathnos

Cool cool, I enjoy it. I wasn't poking holes because I don't want to see it succeed, quite the opposite. Just making sure we had answers to those questions.

Oh I know, don't worry. I like holes, they help the story grow.

Also, now I'm thinking of a villain. We would want players in this world to be able to be from either side without pitting the party against itself, or at least I would, so how about a rouge asset? I'm picturing a council of elders that somewhat governs the cities and one of those elders could be a entropomancer in secret or something. Then, in a world where everyone is fighting over how things should continue to grow, the crazy guy who wants everything to end would make a good villain for PC's from either side.

[Calliope121]

It seems that we have come to a general consensus about the theme. Now we could use to determine what the actual factions are. Also as the cities cover the jungle, It might lead to greater amounts of drow and other underdark creatures. Just a thought.

[Icedaemon]

Originally Posted by Othniel Edden

of those only one doesn't give a significant advantage to one side(not the middle one). What I think you want to do is to create two philosophies that oppose one another but that that would both appeal to players and NPCS on both sides of the divide. A good example of this in RL was Confucianism vs. Legalism. They didn't believe opposite things, but when legalism was in power it was intolerant of other philosophies and tried to have them removed, even if they didn't have directly opposing "doctrine". An era of strife caused by one side gaining power and suppressing the other could do wonders for this setting to gain tension.

There are far more uneducated (or, to be more precise, extremely forgetful people in regards to their education) in the world even today. In a medieval setting, the uneducated would have a massive numerical advantage.

[Strormer]

Originally Posted by Calliope121

It seems that we have come to a general consensus about the theme. Now we could use to determine what the actual factions are. Also as the cities cover the jungle, It might lead to greater amounts of drow and other underdark creatures. Just a thought.

I like that. The jungle would provide massive beasts and druidic type enemies, but we could easily splice in underdark creatures living in the shadowed areas of jungle under the cities.

Also, as a point of interest, I think we might want to beef up the PC's abilities for this setting. The jungle could provide some incredible monsters, but if there are actually people living down there then I think those people would just be hardier by nature. Tough to say what would make that mechanics-wise, but just a thought anyway.

Incidentally, I've got a pretty good idea of the jungle and the life down there, but what about the life in the cities. Massive cities on plates held high aloft, sucking the life-energy out of the plane just to keep running, with modern marvels made possible through magic and ingenuity. It might be similar to Sharn's upper levels, but I would rather see something more unique. Any ideas?

[Recherché]

I don't like the idea of beefing up the wildside people. It seems like it would unbalance things a bit. To explain why they aren't massacred by the beasts, how about this instead.

The people of the wilds have a contract with the forests in which they dwell; in exchange for certain sacrifices and for observing certain taboo's relating to not destroying the forest, the titans of the forest do not notice them any more than they would any other creature. In contrast, skyworlder's without this protection are seen by the titans as threats that must be destroyed. The contract is ritually repeated for every child of the forest peoples on the first full moon after they are born. An outsider can also gain this protection by being adopted by a tribe and going through their ritual. Importantly, if anyone, forest born or adopted alike, violates the taboos and/or attempts to hurt the forest, the protection of the earth spirits would be quickly revoked.

[Arathnos]

I really like that Recherché. In fact, what if the jungle demands that it's inhabitants, all of them, beast or man, come to the defense of the natural world. The wilders HAVE to fight the intrusion of the skyworlders.

[Strormer]

I'm all for that. It sounds great.

Originally Posted by Arathnos

I really like that Recherché. In fact, what if the jungle demands that it's inhabitants, all of them, beast or man, come to the defense of the natural world. The wilders HAVE to fight the intrusion of the skyworlders.

This could work because any forest-dwellers who decide to betray the forest are in special danger when they leave the cities.

[super dark33]

Yknow, its not always good and evil fighting.

i always thought of makeing two opposing LG factions fight each outer.
not all paladins agree with each outers opinions.

like: the Emerald order of the goddes Blabligla Vs. the Cohort of the Blood of Saint Tlktomchio.

diffrent thames? check.
diffrent religion or maybe even same religion? check.
diffrent colors? check.
diffrent hierarchy? check.

heck, maybe even the paladin's can smite the opposing faction's paladins and it WILL do extra damage!

[Othniel Edden]

Looking like LN vs. CN to me, or CN vs. LE. Please lets make the ubercity LN.

[super dark33]

Paladins fighting Paladins works good if your playing with mature RP'ers, as they would understand that its possible.

with young RP'rs and less-talk-more-khazablam players it might not work out as planned.

[Strormer]

If alignments MUST be involved, then I would see both sides as LN. The natural order vs civilization.

[hydroplatypus]

If we are accepting the idea of drow/underdark things in the shadow of the cities the we end up with a (smaller/less powerful) 3rd faction. These Drow would be mainly interested in maintaining the status quo. They like the cities, as they like the shade that is provided, but as they are still technically in the forest, they also have to maintain good relations with the nature people. As such they can't really support either side of the conflict. Would be interesting to have the Drow as a primarily neutral faction.

[Arathnos]

That would be really cool, especially once we delve into how the Drow got to this point, and how they have evolved into a neutral faction. Perhaps Drow, rather than being feared and hated, are actually greatly respected one both sides. While still cruel and twisted, their role as the mediators of the ever-escalating conflict between the cities and natures have earned them a high amount of praise as negotiators.

On that note: Have we decided then? Is Nature vs. Sky Cities our official theme?

[Strormer]

I can see the neutral drow as an interesting third party. I would tone down their cruelty, though, since they are not in a powerful position and they are more or less tolerated because the big guns have each other to point at. Perhaps the surface drow follow Vhaerun (male god of thieves and surface drow, still evil, but hates Lolth) and still don't have the presence that their subterranean cousins do.

Also, are we keeping the standard 3.5 rules for this setting or are we adding anything like new classes/races/features?

Incidentally, so far it would seem we have confirmed that the setting is massive, wild forest against enormous cities on pillars high in the sky and cutting off the light while sucking the life energy from the planet below with an underdark enclave on the surface beneath the cities acting as a neutral party.
Is this about right Calliope?
Faction 1: Powerful wilderness with beasts and other threats
Faction 2: Industrious cities with more technology at their disposal
Neutral: Drow enclaves under the cities, supporting the status quo