Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

[moritheil]

This is comprehensive, and I applaud it. My only concern is that the reason inexperienced DMs and players do not understand nuanced rules is usually that they cannot be bothered to read.

I hope this will encourage some to actually learn the rules.

EDIT: Also, you may want to note for DMs that increasing the size on a monster can be a huge deal. I allowed a player to play a babau, years ago, and stuck what I felt was an appropriate LA on it. It turns out that with the mere addition of 1 HD, the babau jumps a size category and becomes a hell of a lot more competent in melee.

The flip side of this is, as a DM, I now frequently look into advancing monsters to the next size category rather than adding class levels to them. It's more CR-efficient.

[willpell]

Originally Posted by moritheil

This is comprehensive, and I applaud it. My only concern is that the reason inexperienced DMs and players do not understand nuanced rules is usually that they cannot be bothered to read. I hope this will encourage some to actually learn the rules.

That's not entirely fair given how poorly organized and sloppily written Wotco's rules material often was. I spent a long time reading the monster entries in the Monster Manual and never once guessing that absolutely necessary information on how some monster abilities work was tucked away in the Glossary, which I had never read, and not referenced in the section of every monster entry which said how the ability in question worked.

The flip side of this is, as a DM, I now frequently look into advancing monsters to the next size category rather than adding class levels to them. It's more CR-efficient.

There are certain disadvantages to being larger, though, especially in a claustrophobic environment such as many dungeons.

[Mithril Leaf]

Originally Posted by willpell

There are certain disadvantages to being larger, though, especially in a claustrophobic environment such as many dungeons.

On the other hand, large advanced fleshrakers make me shudder. A lot.

[moritheil]

Originally Posted by willpell

That's not entirely fair given how poorly organized and sloppily written Wotco's rules material often was. I spent a long time reading the monster entries in the Monster Manual and never once guessing that absolutely necessary information on how some monster abilities work was tucked away in the Glossary, which I had never read, and not referenced in the section of every monster entry which said how the ability in question worked.

For the people I had in mind when making that statement, it's entirely fair. (Link to SRD to read about the basic ideas of classes . . . response is that they don't want to read, and want me to sit there for 3 hours and answer basic questions.) I agree that the rules are often not well-written or well-edited, though. There are examples of the actual writers admitting that edits entirely changed or removed crucial sections of their text. (Greenbound summoning comes to mind.)

There are certain disadvantages to being larger, though, especially in a claustrophobic environment such as many dungeons.

Yes, and I did use this against said babau eventually when the party went after a kobold tribe. The player was not amused.

[Endarire]

Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange. Oh My!

A handy chart to tell you what keeps what.

Will you port this to MinMaxBoards as well? It'll be safe and remembered there!

[willpell]

Originally Posted by moritheil

Link to SRD to read about the basic ideas of classes . . . response is that they don't want to read, and want me to sit there for 3 hours and answer basic questions.

I don't see any fault with their logic in that. Reading comprehension is a skill, and not everyone has it. In this day and age it's easy to take the ability to translate words on a page into thoughts in a brain for granted, but it's not automatic; people have different learning styles and some of them are not geared toward this sort of medium-to-medium conversion. It is entirely legitimate for someone to say "I can't learn this on my own, would you please teach me?"; this is the entire reason we have teachers. Some people need things explained for them because they can't break the information down and digest it on their own, just as some people have no teeth and need to buy foods that don't require chewing.

Yes, and I did use this against said babau eventually when the party went after a kobold tribe. The player was not amused.

His own danged fault; you were totally within your rights to punish a minmaxer for minmaxing.

[Zombimode]

Originally Posted by willpell

On Simple Question you appeared to be stating that racial HD offer attribute bonuses normally; I remember you once stating the opposite, either on this thread or somewhere else, using the Centaur as proof. Am I misremembering something or did you discover new information?

They do. It's just that native HD of a given creature do not impose stat boosts.
Lets take a look at the centaur:
Its abilities are listed as:
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11

Then, in the racial traits, the following is stated:
+8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom.

The basic centaur uses, as normal for monsters, the standard array (three 10's, and three 11's). Since all racial ability mods are even, it should have 3 even scores and 3 uneven scores. But it also has 4 hd. Normally you would get a +1 to any one ability score.
But lets see, the centaur indeed has 3 even and 3 uneven scores. Furthermore, if you set the unmodified ability scores at Str 10, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11 you would arrive exactly at the listed scores if you add the racial mods. Either way there is no room for an ability score boost.

If you advance the centaur's HD or add class levels it would gain an ability boost every HD that is divisible by 4 (8, 12, 16 and so on).
I think this issue was covered in an discussion between Urpriest and Fax on the first page of this thread.

[willpell]

So, for example, if I start a campaign as a just-hatched White Dragon Wyrmling (3 dragon HD and a +2 LA), and then gain 5000 XP so I can advance to ECL 6, and I choose to take a fourth dragon HD, do I get an attribute bonus? Or do I have to wait until I've gained four dragon HD beyond the 3d6 that the WDW starts with? What about a Brass wyrmling that starts with 4 dragon HD the moment it hatches?

Originally Posted by Zombimode

I think this issue was covered in an discussion between Urpriest and Fax on the first page of this thread.

I read slowly and am terribly distraction-prone. I'd rather get an answer right now than go looking for where it might have already been given.

[Zombimode]

Originally Posted by willpell

So, for example, if I start a campaign as a just-hatched White Dragon Wyrmling (3 dragon HD and a +2 LA), and then gain 5000 XP so I can advance to ECL 6, and I choose to take a fourth dragon HD, do I get an attribute bonus? Or do I have to wait until I've gained four dragon HD beyond the 3d6 that the WDW starts with? What about a Brass wyrmling that starts with 4 dragon HD the moment it hatches?

The white Wyrmling would receive a stat boost when he gains for whatever reason at least 1 hd (ie. advancing by character class), since he now has a number of HD divisible by 4.

For the brass wyrmling would get reverse-engineered racial ability mods (by subtracting 11 from uneven scores and 10 from even scores of the monster entry). He would get his first stat boost when he reaches 8 hd (due to advancement, class levels or templates).

I read slowly and am terribly distraction-prone. I'd rather get an answer right now than go looking for where it might have already been given.

Well, I think I just gave this answer with the analysis of the centaur

[willpell]

Sucks to be a brass dragon, I guess.....

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by willpell

So, for example, if I start a campaign as a just-hatched White Dragon Wyrmling (3 dragon HD and a +2 LA), and then gain 5000 XP so I can advance to ECL 6, and I choose to take a fourth dragon HD, do I get an attribute bonus? Or do I have to wait until I've gained four dragon HD beyond the 3d6 that the WDW starts with? What about a Brass wyrmling that starts with 4 dragon HD the moment it hatches?

Dragons are an especially weird example, because they can advance in hit dice after character creation, which IIRC nothing else reasonably playable can do. It's buried in the example in Draconomicon, but for Dragons gaining HD after character creation you actually do pick up ability increases every multiple of four HD. Zombimonde's explanation is good as far as everything else goes, since with other monsters you've only got the stats at one particular place in HD advancement, so that's where ability bonuses are calculated.

Originally Posted by Endarire

Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange. Oh My!

A handy chart to tell you what keeps what.

Will you port this to MinMaxBoards as well? It'll be safe and remembered there!

Nice chart, I'm putting a link to it in the shapeshifting section.

I might port it over there at some point. I don't currently have an account on MinMaxBoards, and I get the impression you guys don't get much new player traffic, but it still might be handy. Honestly the main reason this guide is here is to give me something to link instead of yelling at every new poster here who assumes that you don't have to read glossaries.

Originally Posted by moritheil

EDIT: Also, you may want to note for DMs that increasing the size on a monster can be a huge deal. I allowed a player to play a babau, years ago, and stuck what I felt was an appropriate LA on it. It turns out that with the mere addition of 1 HD, the babau jumps a size category and becomes a hell of a lot more competent in melee.

The flip side of this is, as a DM, I now frequently look into advancing monsters to the next size category rather than adding class levels to them. It's more CR-efficient.

I actually do point out some of that when I point out that increasing to Large gives an extra +1 to CR, though I admit it's a cursory mention at best. I'm honestly less concerned with advice about power and balance, the monster system isn't terribly consistent about either concern.

Oh also, to willpell: if you turn this thread into a discussion of educational philosophy or the like, a la the Binder thread, I will find whatever is the worst thing I can do to you allowable under the forum rules, and I will do it. Ok?

[willpell]

Originally Posted by Urpriest

Dragons are an especially weird example, because they can advance in hit dice after character creation, which IIRC nothing else reasonably playable can do.

I'm not sure what sense you're using "advance" here; AFAIK, every creature with racial hit dice has the option to take a level in its creature type to gain that creature type's hit die, just like advancing a monster, at least up to the maximum advancement listed for that monster (and I don't know if that's even a hard limit). Dragon is one of the only creature types that compares in utility to a character class, and true dragons are the only creatures that automatically advance just by living long enough, without having to earn XP.

It's buried in the example in Draconomicon, but for Dragons gaining HD after character creation you actually do pick up ability increases every multiple of four HD.

Okay, cool.

Oh also, to willpell: if you turn this thread into a discussion of educational philosophy or the like, a la the Binder thread, I will find whatever is the worst thing I can do to you allowable under the forum rules, and I will do it. Ok?

No worries, this isn't my thread and I'm not going to go that far off the rails in someone else's virtual house (though I may mix the occasional metaphor).

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by willpell

I'm not sure what sense you're using "advance" here; AFAIK, every creature with racial hit dice has the option to take a level in its creature type to gain that creature type's hit die, just like advancing a monster, at least up to the maximum advancement listed for that monster (and I don't know if that's even a hard limit). Dragon is one of the only creature types that compares in utility to a character class, and true dragons are the only creatures that automatically advance just by living long enough, without having to earn XP.

Nope! Except for the true dragons, there are no rules that allow a PC to just pick up racial HD after character creation. For one, LA is related to RHD, both because increases in RHD can grant size increases and because LA is computed based partly on comparisons between the creature at its final pre-class-levels ECL and a PC of that ECL. Allowing increases to HD willy-nilly would require recalculations, and things would get weird.

As for Dragons automatically gaining HD without spending XP, that depends on whether you're using the Draconomicon rules or not. But without the Draconomicon rules, nobody, including Dragons, can use XP to buy more RHD.

[willpell]

One thing that remains unclear about dragons - do the save DCs of damaging breath weapons follow a consistent pattern? A formula of "10 + half HD + CONMOD" is listed but seems to only apply to metallic dragons' nondamaging breath; for damaging breath it says "see the dragon variety's description", which isn't terribly helpful for figuring out exactly when the increase occurs for a dragon that's leveling up. (Perhaps it clarifies in Draconomicon somewhere; I haven't actually read the book, just referenced one section that seemed relevant, so I might have missed another one that actually was.)

[willpell]

Do you have any idea why the Dire Rat has a +3 Will save when it only has 1 HD and Wisdom of 12? Do dire animals get a free Iron Will or something that isn't actually mentioned in the text? Or is Will a good save for rats because they're stubborn (gotta love phrases like "some animals have different good saves" in a book that's supposed to be full of rules).

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by willpell

Do you have any idea why the Dire Rat has a +3 Will save when it only has 1 HD and Wisdom of 12? Do dire animals get a free Iron Will or something that isn't actually mentioned in the text? Or is Will a good save for rats because they're stubborn (gotta love phrases like "some animals have different good saves" in a book that's supposed to be full of rules).

Originally Posted by d20 SRD, Animal Type, Saves

for instance dire animals have good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.

I was gonna link you to All Right There in the Manual but thought better of linking TVTropes for the good of the thread.

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by willpell

One thing that remains unclear about dragons - do the save DCs of damaging breath weapons follow a consistent pattern? A formula of "10 + half HD + CONMOD" is listed but seems to only apply to metallic dragons' nondamaging breath; for damaging breath it says "see the dragon variety's description", which isn't terribly helpful for figuring out exactly when the increase occurs for a dragon that's leveling up. (Perhaps it clarifies in Draconomicon somewhere; I haven't actually read the book, just referenced one section that seemed relevant, so I might have missed another one that actually was.)

I haven't calculated it for all of them, but it looks like the Chromatics obey 10+half HD+Con mod as well. If you find a counterexample let me know.

Cieyrin has answered the Dire Rat question ably. In general, Animals and Humanoids can have nonstandard save progressions.

[willpell]

When a white dragon PC advances from Wyrmling to Very Young at ECL 9, it gains a dragon HD and increases in size from Tiny to Small. The Monster Manual section on white dragons lists the Attributes of Wyrmling and Very Young as being the same except for +2 Strength on the latter. But the section (in the Improving Monsters chapter) about size increases when advancing by HD says that "Tiny -> Small" means +4 Strength and -2 Dex. So if a dragon PC increases in size, does he use the standard HD advancement rule, or should he go by what it says for the dragon variety?

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by willpell

When a white dragon PC advances from Wyrmling to Very Young at ECL 9, it gains a dragon HD and increases in size from Tiny to Small. The Monster Manual section on white dragons lists the Attributes of Wyrmling and Very Young as being the same except for +2 Strength on the latter. But the section (in the Improving Monsters chapter) about size increases when advancing by HD says that "Tiny -> Small" means +4 Strength and -2 Dex. So if a dragon PC increases in size, does he use the standard HD advancement rule, or should he go by what it says for the dragon variety?

Dragons generally follow their own rules when it comes to advancement and should follow their own rules as opposed to the general size increase table.

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Dragons generally follow their own rules when it comes to advancement and should follow their own rules as opposed to the general size increase table.

Precisely. Note that since Dragon aging differs quite a bit from normal HD advancement (having specific age ranges, gaining many special abilities beyond those that automatically increase with HD, etc), it really should be viewed as a mechanic distinct from the HD advancement of typical monsters. Think of it more like what happens when an animal companion gains HD.

[willpell]

Originally Posted by Urpriest

Think of it more like what happens when an animal companion gains HD.

Wait...I thought animal companions were the ur-example of the standard advancement rules being applied to something PCish (and ultimately part of the reason why you started this thread). How are they different?

[Zombimode]

Take a look at the Druid's Animal Companion table, for instance.
Besides HD increases, you see: Natural Armor Adjustment, Str/Dex Adjustment, Bonus Tricks, and Specials. Non of those are part of/conform to standard advancement.

[willpell]

Originally Posted by Zombimode

Take a look at the Druid's Animal Companion table, for instance.
Besides HD increases, you see: Natural Armor Adjustment, Str/Dex Adjustment, Bonus Tricks, and Specials. Non of those are part of/conform to standard advancement.

They're in addition to standard advancement; AFAIK you still get all the effects of the Hit Dice you add. Is that all you meant?

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by willpell

They're in addition to standard advancement; AFAIK you still get all the effects of the Hit Dice you add. Is that all you meant?

You don't get size increases from bonus animal HD, and they can surpass the HD limits of the creature in question. The purpose of the Druid animal companion's bonus HD is to let you use a smaller companion at higher levels, as opposed to in 3.0 where to be competitive you had to get progressively larger companions until they introduced Legendary animals.

[willpell]

Originally Posted by Urpriest

You don't get size increases from bonus animal HD.

Where is this stated?

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by willpell

Where is this stated?

It doesn't need to be. Size increases are a feature of advancement, while the animal companion gains bonus HD. They're different mechanics, with the only similarity being that both give HD and thus give additional skill points and feats (as specified at the end of the animal companion entry).

The FAQ clarifies this:

Originally Posted by 3.5 FAQ

When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal
companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal
get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf
companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice
and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the
wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in
the MM, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be
Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?

An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra
Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for
creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to
unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and
perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.

As a final consideration, consider why you didn't balk at my statement that the bonus HD aren't limited by the HD limits of advancement. If you're using that entry for determining when size increases happen, what happens when you pass the range given in the entry?

[willpell]

Originally Posted by Urpriest

As a final consideration, consider why you didn't balk at my statement that the bonus HD aren't limited by the HD limits of advancement. If you're using that entry for determining when size increases happen, what happens when you pass the range given in the entry?

That part didn't bother me because I figured that the listed size ranges for creatures are suggestions for what's usual, rather than mandates of what's possible. Like the environment ranges, or alignment....rare exceptions may occur.

[Dark_Ansem]

so, let me see if I did understand correctly:

a Sarrukh has a Racial HD of 14 and a LA of +8: that means that its EFFECTIVE level is 22, BUT, in this form, its 14HD is his actual starting level.

a mind Flayer, on the other hand, has a Racial HD of 8 and LA of +7. Again, effective level of 15 but, gameplay-wise, it begins with 8 levels?

for the same reason a Drow Cleric 1 (LA+2 and no racial hit dice as far as I know) will only have 1 level, its class. right?

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem

so, let me see if I did understand correctly:

a Sarrukh has a Racial HD of 14 and a LA of +8: that means that its EFFECTIVE level is 22, BUT, in this form, its 14HD is his actual starting level.

a mind Flayer, on the other hand, has a Racial HD of 8 and LA of +7. Again, effective level of 15 but, gameplay-wise, it begins with 8 levels?

for the same reason a Drow Cleric 1 (LA+2 and no racial hit dice as far as I know) will only have 1 level, its class. right?

Correct, the ECL is only of use for how much experience till your next level and what your Wealth by Level should be, otherwise you use the sum of RHD and class levels to determine anything else.

[Zombimode]

MM4 come with a new style of stat block (and it's continued in Magic of Incarnum). Now, thats hardly the first time a new stat block style was introduced and also not the last time.

But the MM4 stat block seems to invent a new way of classifying special abilities. Normally a creatures abilities are either Special Attacks or Special Qualities (correct me if I'm wrong). This is an important distinction for effects like Alternate Form and its spell derivatives.

On the MM4 stat block, no "Special Attacks" line is found. Instead, we see "Attack Options" and "Special Actions". Is this only an aesthetic distinction and everything written under those two make up the creatures Special Attacks?


At any rate, its confusing to see new terminology that doesn't really fit into the established monster rules.