League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

Darth Mario · 10-19-2011, 08:05 AM

League of Legends XXIV:
Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

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Spoiler

Qwertystop · 10-19-2011, 08:09 AM

I liked how the last thread ended without taking up 2 pages of trying to decide what this one would be called.
EDIT: Wow, first!

Djinn_in_Tonic · 10-19-2011, 08:29 AM

So...reposted here 'cause I'm dumb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic

Quote:

Originally Posted by toasty

edit: 2v1 lanes are not fun, I agree. However, if you regularly are facing 2v1 lanes your elo is probably lower than I think a player of your skill, Djin, should be. My solution to anyone who is regularly facing 2v1 is to just play Chogath and get a bunch of defensive runes. Call for ganks. You'll probably do okay. Its not fun, but you'll do okay.

My ELO is definitely lower than my skill should be at...I have to much fun with this game, and haven't yet found a ranked duo partner I'm really comfortable with who is around for games on a regular basis.

And yes...Cho'Gath is pretty much the one guy I can reliably stomp the hell out of a 1v2 with, but that's 'cause I love Cho.

Good advice though.

Talesin · 10-19-2011, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

I liked how the last thread ended without taking up 2 pages of trying to decide what this one would be called.

Should we start the discussion now for the next one?

Just want to get some people's thoughts on items and specifically the cost of items relative to their power. Been thinking back to a few builds I used on Annie and Ashe back in the early days of me playing and I realised that I was a pretty terrible player due to the fact I got so few kills in relation to the number of assists.

Spoiler

TL;DR Do you build cheaper items in order to build up your power or do you think rushing a more expensive item is the way to go?

Dogmantra · 10-19-2011, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin

TL;DR Do you build cheaper items in order to build up your power or do you think rushing a more expensive item is the way to go?

Definitely more expensive items first.
My general rule is that unless I'm playing cheapskate to win (e.g. on Warwick I'll have six finished items when people are just finishing their third because I build super cheap ones like Wit's End as the most expensive), it's one small item before building into proper big ones (small item: less than 1500 gold generally, big item: 2000+)

douglas · 10-19-2011, 08:45 AM

So, you know that weird behavior where Blitzcrank grabs someone exactly when they teleport and ends up dragging them all the way across the map back to him? Apparently it can happen with Poppy's charge too.

I was recalling to base at very low health, finished an instant before Poppy arrived with a charge, and then watched as my uncontrollable champion (Akali) ran at very high speed back to the bush I'd recalled from. It was kind of funny watching the return trip, running (complete with animation) so fast it took only 5 to 10 seconds to get from spawn to the brush in bottom lane. Fortunately for me there was no indication of what was happening that Poppy could see, so she'd headed off somewhere else by the time I arrived and I could just recall again uninterrupted.

Thrawn183 · 10-19-2011, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic

And yes...Cho'Gath is pretty much the one guy I can reliably stomp the hell out of a 1v2 with, but that's 'cause I love Cho.

Hehe, I see what you did there.

Daverin · 10-19-2011, 08:48 AM

So, just looked at Graves.

Passive: Scales, starting at 1 armor every 10 seconds in battle, going up to 4 by late levels (already forget what levels scale up...) Qualifer is taking or dishing damage, and that status lasts 4 seconds if damage is not being done by someone.

Q: Dang. It looks okay, until you see what happens when all of the projectiles connect on one person, then it hits like a truck. Scales off of bonus AD, not quite 1 ratio, but close. Very good for farming, as it can either take on the whole wave, or pretty much instakill casters at higher levels if angled right. Eventually can instakill lots of minions, period.

W: No champs tested, so not much to say. It is also a secondary nuke, but it is AP scaling, so... yeah.

E: So... wow. This thing scales hard. It lasts for 4 seconds, but a second is shaved from the CD for every attack you make. At beginning levels, it is 40% increase, and is about a 22 second CD. By level 5, it is 80% AsPd increase (!), and is only 14 seconds. If you shoot the whole time with even just a zeal, it will be right back up when it wears off, maybe a second left on CD.

R: Scales off of bonus AD; the main shot is above 1 ratio, the cone is slightly below. Good base, and I imagine it will hit fairly hard in a fight.

Everything seems decent, he has no fantastically out there range or anything, and has an MS of 305.

His bases? Someone give me an idea of what another ranged carry has at level 18 and other levels. Didn't try to calculate it off of the top of my head, tbh. Don't thing it is that high, though.

Overall, feels cool, I don't think anything is that out there, except perhaps for that incredible W buff. If this guy is getting PD, it is for the crit, and not so much the attack speed. That said, the fact he scales off of bonus AD and does not seem to be able to go off of bases alone suggest that, yes, he will not be getting away with any standard tanky dps build. Although his passive makes me wonder if he could build, say, Atmallet, in all seriousness, and actually be beefy enough to be close to my imagination of what I want, although his MR would still be nothing to write home about. I will say this, with that Q, it definitely appears to be worth it trying to get all the shots to connect, but to do that involves being really close. So either it won't work, or else tankier than usual ranged carry will. I'll let those better than myself figure that one out.

Darth Mario · 10-19-2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin

Should we start the discussion now for the next one?

Just want to get some people's thoughts on items and specifically the cost of items relative to their power. Been thinking back to a few builds I used on Annie and Ashe back in the early days of me playing and I realised that I was a pretty terrible player due to the fact I got so few kills in relation to the number of assists.

Spoiler

TL;DR Do you build cheaper items in order to build up your power or do you think rushing a more expensive item is the way to go?

It all depends on the champion, really. But I will note that in almost all cases, you are better off building AD before Attack Speed and crit on carries. If you have a PD/LW/IE build, get your BFS from the IE first, and complete that before moving on to Zeal. You'll find yourself doing more reliable damage and securing more kills.

Delusion · 10-19-2011, 09:00 AM

So, got wrost possible way to end my loosing streak of 6 games.

I fed badly but our team managed to win despite me.

Well atleast I was only who warded so I was marginally useful. And just when I was getting comfortable in playing Riven in 3v3...

Talesin · 10-19-2011, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Mario

It all depends on the champion, really. But I will note that in almost all cases, you are better off building AD before Attack Speed and crit on carries. If you have a PD/LW/IE build, get your BFS from the IE first, and complete that before moving on to Zeal. You'll find yourself doing more reliable damage and securing more kills.

Yeah this is a similar thing i've been working towards compared to my build before hand. Only got the AP one (got Annie in mind) to hand but been thinking something like boots + pots into Sorc treads + Hextech Revolver, follow up with Rabadon's into a voidstaff. Finish Will of the Ancients and go from there.

Compared to before where I attempted to squeeze a rod of ages and archangels into the same build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogmantra

Definitely more expensive items first.
My general rule is that unless I'm playing cheapskate to win (e.g. on Warwick I'll have six finished items when people are just finishing their third because I build super cheap ones like Wit's End as the most expensive), it's one small item before building into proper big ones (small item: less than 1500 gold generally, big item: 2000+)

I was thinking cheap was more around the 2k mark with expensive being anything upward of 2.5k that had a large quantity of the gold coming from one item. But what you're saying mirrors some of the conclusions I had drawn.

toasty · 10-19-2011, 09:19 AM

If you are not getting items like Rod of Ages by 17 minute or IE by 20 minutes you need to farm better. Early game the majority of your items are gained through farming.

Don't get a hextech gunblade on Annie. She doesn't have enough sustained damage to warrant it the way heroes like Kennen and Cass do.

On ashe, if you are having trouble getting IE really fast, you can get away with something like a 2-3 dorans blades first. But because of her base low damage I really suggest rushing an IE. That or getting a Brutalizer and CDR boots for more utility.

Tychris1 · 10-19-2011, 09:53 AM

Apparently karma in this game hates me. I went from a 21/7/9 Fiddlesticks, 1v5ing everyone to a 1/11/5 Urgot right afterwards purely because my lane partner (Cho'Gath) refused to communicate and had the reflexes of a dead cat. Just goes to show that without communication, your whole team is screwed over.

Daverin · 10-19-2011, 09:56 AM

... For a moment I thought you were talking about the champion Karma.

Also, as far as what to build first on carries, I would like to note that although the above seems largely true on ranged carries, I think the classical "melee carries" such as Trynd and Yi are better off at least getting a zeal before finishing their first big AD item (and, of course, there is z3rg's core for trynd, which doesn't even include IE or BT to start with.) Reason being that they have strong AD steroids (and in Trynd's case a good AD base,) and would be better served by getting in that aspd multiplier. I also actually find farming easier with a zeal/bfs instead of a big ad item on carries... Although if it takes from damage output in fights, that isn't very helpful.

Tychris1 · 10-19-2011, 10:03 AM

Looking back at it, I can see why you thought that.....

Qaera · 10-19-2011, 10:05 AM

Hopefully I'll be able to play this weekend.

~ ♅

Psyborg · 10-19-2011, 10:09 AM

On the build up slowly vs. save for big item debate...well, I'm not sure what's optimal. Looking at my own past habits on my four most-played characters...

Ryze has his One True Core Build (Tear+Frozen Heart+Banshee's Veil), and there is no other. Everything after that is gravy, though I'm a fan of Abyssal Scepter + Will of the Ancients.

On Irelia, I rush GP10 and trinity force like everyone else, and then build piecemeal, often getting the resistance components first. Not a few games have I ended with mercs, triforce, philo stone, heart of gold, negatron cloak, and chain vest. Turning that negatron and chainvest into their eventual endgame items tends to take a lot longer.

I play most ranged carries occasionally, and usually rush IE. On my main, Vayne, I build a bit weirder. May or may not go for the 2-3 Dorans; after that it's Black Cleaver, BF Sword, Zeal, BFS-->Infinity Edge, Zeal-->Phantom Dancer. Again, there's probably an unupgraded vamp scepter in there somewhere.

Kog'maw, of course, is a special case. I build him attack-speed/on-hit, so his offensive core primarily is cheap items. Sword of the Divine, Wit's End, and then the big one, Madred's Bloodrazor (which is usually built last due to %HP being less valuable than flat on-hits until people build up a good amount of HP). I've been known, however, to grab both recurve bows after SotD before finishing either Wit's or Madred's; though you're not really useful without Bioarcane Barrage with this approach, it gets you a lot of burst during BAB a lot sooner than you might expect, which is handy for lane dominance (especially if you throw in an early green elixir).

So I guess overall I tend toward the "build small items and/or pieces" side of things.

tribble · 10-19-2011, 10:12 AM

WARNING: LONG.

Spoiler

Delusion · 10-19-2011, 10:35 AM

Been thinking (half seriously) if I should get one full cdr runes page that I could use for all champions first, instead of having only 2 half finished pages.

toasty · 10-19-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delusion

Been thinking (half seriously) if I should get one full cdr runes page that I could use for all champions first, instead of having only 2 half finished pages.

You should be a boss and get 8 rune pages like me, most of which are all variations on the same thing (I have 2 pages with Armor runes at this point. Why can't I have unlimited rune pages, Riot? WHY????!)

Quote:

My ELO is definitely lower than my skill should be at...I have to much fun with this game, and haven't yet found a ranked duo partner I'm really comfortable with who is around for games on a regular basis.

I was really talking about your normal elo. But yeah, I'm sure your ranked elo is lower than it should be.

Also: you don't need a ranked partner. I know everyone says you do, but I think the truth is that they're not true men (or women, or whatever

). Real league of legends players go into solo queue and carry games by themselves, duo or no.

Qwertystop · 10-19-2011, 10:43 AM

I've been switching to Draft Normals instead of Blind Pick Normals, in preparation for Ranked in a few levels.

Not. One. Troll.

HOORAY!!!!

Djinn_in_Tonic · 10-19-2011, 10:43 AM

So, Graves.

I know there's a tradition of me being in love with new champions, but that hasn't exactly been the case recently (Skarner, Wukong, Yorick, Talon...they've all been fun, but...meh). Leona was the only exception, and that's only after I figured out that I can play her like a carry while still being my team's Tank.

Graves though? It looks like we're back on track. He's got what I love about Trist, what I love about Vayne, and is just plain fun. I may be AD carrying once again with someone other than Caitlyn (thank god).

Quote:

Originally Posted by toasty

I was really talking about your normal elo. But yeah, I'm sure your ranked elo is lower than it should be.

Oh, my normal ELO is tanked. I do troll builds, play with people with less technical skill than me because I love their company and/or have fun in games with them, and sometimes just insta-lock random on a whim...or do crazy things like Mid Mundo (although my track record with that is actually rather good...)

Quote:

Also: you don't need a ranked partner. I know everyone says you do, but I think the truth is that they're not true men (or women, or whatever

). Real league of legends players go into solo queue and carry games by themselves, duo or no.

Oh, I know. But I'm to much of a social animal to want to be in a game with nobody I know.

Talesin · 10-19-2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toasty

If you are not getting items like Rod of Ages by 17 minute or IE by 20 minutes you need to farm better. Early game the majority of your items are gained through farming.

I do agree about the farming bit. Was getting good on Ezrael at farming and then they took my champ away. I've seen talk of 100CS by 10 minutes, or 20 minutes can't remember, and i've hit that once or twice on ashe and once on Ezrael. But I agree there is work to be done there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toasty

Don't get a hextech gunblade on Annie. She doesn't have enough sustained damage to warrant it the way heroes like Kennen and Cass do.

I've never got gunblade on Annie, I upgrade it to Will of the Ancients rather than Gunblade. Cheaper, identical Spell Vamp and slightly more AP in addition to giving other champs AP and spell vamp is better in my opinion. Mainly because i'm terrible at 'on-use' items such as gunblade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toasty

On ashe, if you are having trouble getting IE really fast, you can get away with something like a 2-3 dorans blades first. But because of her base low damage I really suggest rushing an IE. That or getting a Brutalizer and CDR boots for more utility.

I'll give the rushing IE/Brutalizer a go on Ashe. I've always found a lack of damage on Ashe to be a problem, even had a go with a manamune build for a while. I actually preferred it over everything i've run before but given the attitude of some of my team mates towards me building the item, despite feeling i've contributed much more throughout the game, i've dropped the idea.

Delusion · 10-19-2011, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toasty

You should be a boss and get 8 rune pages like me, most of which are all variations on the same thing (I have 2 pages with Armor runes at this point. Why can't I have unlimited rune pages, Riot? WHY????!)

Oh I will get more rune pages eventually, but I was thinking of wether I should do one page I can use on nearly every champ first.

shadowwalker64 · 10-19-2011, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delusion

Oh I will get more rune pages eventually, but I was thinking of wether I should do one page I can use on nearly every champ first.

Everyone likes armour yellows no matter who they are. CDR/Magic resist blues are good. Reds are either magic pen or phys pen depending on who you play (everyone else you play benefits from them as well, just not as much).

There, runepage for every single person in the game, all realtively cheap.

I find that my quints are what I change most from game to game. May range from moar dakka (AD) to moar dakka (AP). AD quints are pretty universal if you are looking for something to fill the quints temporarily, as they help in last-hitting a bit as well as making up for the abysmal starting AD of some champs. It is questionable whether or not they are cost efficient, though.

Maeglin_Dubh · 10-19-2011, 11:28 AM

For my Skarnerventures tonight, should I go Triforce Tank, Triforce Hybrid, AD, AP, or none of the above?

TechnOkami · 10-19-2011, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maeglin_Dubh

For my Skarnerventures tonight, should I go Triforce Tank, Triforce Hybrid, AD, AP, or none of the above?

I'll be running him with an AP build, so if you do something like triforce hybrid (because according to Riot he's supposed to be a pure hybrid champion) then we can get a broader spectrum of everything about Skarner.

ArcanistSupreme · 10-19-2011, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnOkami

Kinkou is the name of the clan which Akali, Shen, and Kennen are from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldariel

Instead of one ninja or the other, take the whole clan of ninjas!

Oh. I read one of the story pages a long time ago (I think it was Amumu's?) and was so disappointed by how lame it was that I never bothered with the others. Are those ones worth perusing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnOkami

Unfortunately for Rammus, 1 of 2 things are already waiting for him there. One of them is Garen. The other is Skarner.

Fair point. But why would a Rammus, ninja or otherwise, ever be afraid of a Garen? And I have yet to see evidence that anyone should ever be afraid of a Skarner. Maybe the buffs will prove me wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delusion

Oh I will get more rune pages eventually, but I was thinking of wether I should do one page I can use on nearly every champ first.

This guide is pretty decent, and I'm pretty sure it addresses exactly what you want to know.

Eldariel · 10-19-2011, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toasty

Trimogs Impaler on Ranged DPS? What is the world coming to?

Sivir, much?

Quote:

Originally Posted by toasty

Not sure how serious Saint is, but he has said like 5 times that "Jarvan is King [in the jungle]" on stream. Arcanoi has led me to believe otherwise. Thoughts?

He's always been good, everyone's known that, he just fell off with the Lee Sin FotM. That said, Saint is also the guy who touts Master Yi as the Best Jungler Ever and started the GP Jungle FotM before the rework, so take everything he says with a grain of salt. My personal opinion tho, Jarvan is fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daverin

I would say there is a difference between building Frozen Mallet and building Atmallet, since Atmas really is a tanky dps item. To be fair, we have no clue what they'll give him, but I doubt they'd really make a "tanky ranged." It's more like a pipedream. What I mean by tanky ranged hybrid is actually pretty much supported by what they said, which is that they want to encourage Graves to occasionally step up and fire close up, likely then to reposition.

Also, I meant tanky ranged AD. There are, of course, a few tanky options with ranged attacks for lane that are AP.

Urgot wants a word with you. Told me it had something to do with showing you just what "tanky" means. He also had a cleaver so might want to be careful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcanistSupreme

Oh. I read one of the story pages along time ago (I think it was Amumu's?) and was so disappointed by how lame it was that I never bothered with the others. Are those ones worth perusing?

*shrug* Depends on what floats your boat. Some of them are fun. Some of them are interesting. Some of them are a waste of space (Amumu's, for instance). So...yeah.

Daverin · 10-19-2011, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldariel

Urgot wants a word with you. Told me it had something to do with showing you just what "tanky" means. He also had a cleaver so might want to be careful..

To be honest, I never even realized Urgot was that tanky until the discussions about him recently. I then was considering playing him, but ultimately... I'm not quite sure. For one, I can't say I would be able to put up with the model for long... >.>

Also, I tend to not like champs who dip off, although I do like winning the lane. Actually, I feel like I always do better in the laning phase, and dip off myself. So, having a champ who does that... Not sure that is a good idea.