Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" - Page 11

rakkoon · 08-12-2011, 02:17 AM

Thank you for the quick and accurate response. Have fun.

Cheesegear · 08-12-2011, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King.

Battle Sisters get basically ATSKNF in the movement phase, or, in shooting/assault, reroll 1s (To-hit). Can use both, but spend a faith point for each.
Retributors can make their guns rending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tychris1

Edit: I can't remember but can Sisters rapid fire? Because if they do that 6 wound thing becomes a huge thing.

I assume this is what we're talking about. No?
Well, Zorg already posted it before. Faith has been nerfed. Yes, having Faith is good, in that it's better than nothing. But it's not better than what they used to have, and that makes it a nerf. And that makes it bad.

Unless the White Dwarf crew severely screw around with the rules-set (which isn't a White Dwarf thing to do), Retributors only carry around Heavy Bolters and Multi-Meltas anyway. Rending isn't that big of a deal. Even if those Rending weapons are Heavy Bolters. Grey Knights have got better than that. All the time, not just when they make Faith rolls.

Tychris1 · 08-12-2011, 02:41 AM

Oh yes, here is a link to the story for the SoB entitled Red & Black. Basically, a planet is clear of warp storms, so the imperium in it's usual self decides that instead of looking left then right to see if the coast is clear THEN proceed towards the planet instead decides to send the Sisters of Battle to judge and figure out if they should exterminatus it.

Another book/audio drama will come later this year with the book Hammer & Anvil (I'm sensing a theme here

) in which the Sisters go into Sanctuary 101 and do battle against a Old and impecable eldritch abomination of some sort.

Tarinaky · 08-12-2011, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tychris1

decides that instead of looking left then right to see if the coast is clear THEN proceed towards the planet instead decides to send the Sisters of Battle to judge t and figure out if they should exterminatus it.

"Honour means killing!" -- Journeyquest

Renegade Paladin · 08-12-2011, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorg

I like small tanks and I cannot lie,
You other brothers can't deny,

I do believe, good sir, that you mean you battle brothers can't deny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

ANYWAY, enough of my kvetching about Land Raiders. Tournament on the 20th. My initial list idea, modified from a list I used in a campaign a couple months ago. The modifications consist of dropping a heavy weapons squad from the platoon and changing to the Basilisk from a Manticore to get 120 points, which I spent on a Devil Dog. Thoughts welcome.

Spoiler

I plan to deploy the Basilisk in a corner away from any objectives, to deny the enemy the chance to take out the heavy artillery and grab an objective in one go. The one thing that makes me uncomfortable is a lack of troops to spread around objectives; if I intend to bubble-wrap my artillery, for instance, I have to use meltavets on objectives. I think that between the Demolisher, meltavets, and Devil Dog, I should have any pesky heavy armor potentially taken care of. Had I ten more points I'd think about getting a Bane Wolf instead, but the only ten point thing I could easily cut is the power weapon in the blob, and I'd rather keep it in there.

On further consideration, I'm giving thought to dropping the Russ's camo netting (which while theoretically possibly nice has never actually done me a lick of good) for a multimelta on the Devil Dog and some five point special weapon or other for the blob. Thoughts?

Ricky S · 08-12-2011, 09:13 AM

I know for a fact that GW have been working on new sisters of battle mini's but whether they will release any new boxes is another issue.

I am hoping that they are going the same way as the blood angels did. White dwarf Codex release which everyone ~~bitc~~ complained about and then a brand spanking new army released at a later date. Fingers crossed the sisters get the same.

In other news, I purchased my 20 tactical marines today. Lucky me, I have enough spare parts in my bits box to make a captain, 4 honour guard with flamers, 3 sanguinary priests (one going into the honour guard), 2 sergeants with power weapons and the rest tactical marines. Woot.

Cheesegear · 08-12-2011, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky S

I am hoping that they are going the same way as the blood angels did. White dwarf Codex release which everyone ~~bitc~~ complained about and then a brand spanking new army released at a later date.

This is exactly what is happening. It's just that people need to know that the White Dwarf...Appendix...Is not the shining ray of light direct from the Emperor Himself that people are making it out to be. Doesn't anyone see? They don't even get Razorbacks.

Ninja Chocobo · 08-12-2011, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tychris1

It is 40K, it is for the Imperial Guard first edition, and is again outdated so you shouldn't be using it anyway.

We're not allowed to use old models now? Bugger that.

Cheesegear · 08-12-2011, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

We're not allowed to use old models now? Bugger that.

NO! There's nowhere that says you can't use older models. There's just common sense that if a newer model looks far better than an old model, why use the old model if you don't have to?

Ninja Chocobo · 08-12-2011, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

NO! There's nowhere that says you can't use older models. There's just common sense that if a newer model looks far better than an old model, why use the old model if you don't have to?

(psst. Sarcasm. I happen to really like the old, retro-style models. They're quirky.)
But the old models are smaller than the new models! You're modelling for advantage which is cheating!

Ninjaman · 08-12-2011, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorg

No, but it's pretty wordy and doesn't quite fit (which is a shame). Some of the Fly Lords hate Stelek so much they made jokes about his wife having a miscarriage - not joking she should, joking she did. Yeach

Which, tecnically, makes them worse than him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

So, yesterday I was sad. I walked into the store after getting off work on pay day. I may have mentioned a few times that GW is between home and work and it's easy to stop there in the afternoon.

I walked into the store - on my pay day, mind - looked around, and didn't want anything. Are any of my current army projects finished? Hell no. But I just didn't want any of the models on the shelves. I mean, some of the Storm of Magic stuff looks fantastic, but, 40K on the other hand?

It's not the price that prevents me from buying stuff. Seriously, I'm me with my job. Price isn't usually an issue. It's the lack of goodness in the models. I don't know about anyone else, but 'round my parts nobody got into Grey Knights, partly because everyone was only in the middle of making their Blood Angels, and partly because no-one wanted the models, and, well, partly because a kit of five models cost as much as other armies' kits with ten. That's why I haven't done a write-up of Grey Knights. I, personally don't want them and no-one around me gives me any games of which I can use to gauge their effectiveness. I mean, reading the Codex is fine, but it doesn't show you how it works in game (Necron Pariahs are an obvious example).

And then there's the Power Armour Ennui. I want to finish my projects. But, I just don't want to do it now. Maybe it's time to play Fantasy for reals. Or play Imperial Guard or Dark Eldar.

Then there's the other stuff on GW policies that almost seem designed to push me and other veterans out of the hobby, but I'm not going to get into that since it isn't important on a forum like this one. This and the above is all I feel I need to say. If I wanted to say more I'd make a blog. The models coming out, I feel are lackluster and I really don't care about them.

Once more, I'd like to re-iterate that there are no new models for Sisters. The White Dwarf is a stop-gap to shut people up. Nothing more. 'FULL RANGE IN THE ONLINE STORE' means 'the old range we've had for years please pay attention to us again'. Sisters aren't bad. But, this 'White Dwarf Codex' is not designed to get people to start playing Sisters. Its designed for the people who already play Sisters, so that they continue to play Sisters and stop bothering GW Staff.

Seriously, why did they take away the 10-woman box?

That is sad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King.

To be fair, it 'only' makes wound rolls of 6 into AP1/power wounds, but yeah, I can see where you're coming from.

They're a 3e codex, actually, and yes, but the ones I mentioned are the only ones that really matter.

Audiobook sounds interesting. I'll keep an eye (ear?)out for that.

And now, at 3:00 AM... I go unconscious.

That is the exact same thing as rending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky S

I know for a fact that GW have been working on new sisters of battle mini's but whether they will release any new boxes is another issue.

I am hoping that they are going the same way as the blood angels did. White dwarf Codex release which everyone ~~bitc~~ complained about and then a brand spanking new army released at a later date. Fingers crossed the sisters get the same.

In other news, I purchased my 20 tactical marines today. Lucky me, I have enough spare parts in my bits box to make a captain, 4 honour guard with flamers, 3 sanguinary priests (one going into the honour guard), 2 sergeants with power weapons and the rest tactical marines. Woot.

But didn´t they get it like 3 years later?

Ninja Chocobo · 08-12-2011, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

Which, tecnically, makes them worse than him.

A Razorback-spam list is definitely not a joke, and I have no intention of making light of it...

Erloas · 08-12-2011, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

That is the exact same thing as rending.

In most cases, but it isn't exactly the same as rending. Str 3 still can't wound T7 and Str4 can't wound T8 with that, where as it does with rending. And against vehicles str4 is only ever going to glance, you can't rend for a penetrating hit with that extra D3 to the attack.

Teln · 08-12-2011, 11:59 AM

Wrong, with that extra d3, S4 can pierce AV 12. 4+6+3=13.

Erloas · 08-12-2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teln

Wrong, with that extra d3, S4 can pierce AV 12. 4+6+3=13.

Which was my point. In why the faith ability isn't exactly like rending.

Mattarias, King. · 08-12-2011, 01:06 PM

Most sisters have bolters, so yes, they can rapid-fire. With the current faith system, yeah, it's pretty sweet. But as everyone has mentioned, it's not as bad as rending.

...And yeah, Retributors getting rending is... Silly.

Basically, not diggin' the new faith. Hoping the next section they release is full of good things.

HalfTangible · 08-12-2011, 01:29 PM

Maybe they buffed the sisters to compensate?

Mattarias, King. · 08-12-2011, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalfTangible

Maybe they buffed the sisters to compensate?

If by that, you mean their statlines? Nnnnnope. They released those. They're almost all exactly the same.

..On the bright side, I have an excuse to get me a hospitaler model. They're so cool.

Arcanoi · 08-12-2011, 01:57 PM

I'm just going to leave this here.

Tychris1 · 08-12-2011, 01:59 PM

The stats can always be fudged around considering the codex isn't out yet. I can understand the loss of invulnerable saves is a big blow, but there is still more in tow.

Personally I'd give two general faith powers to the sisters, one that gives a 6+ (Maybe 5) invul save and the other power would be a plus 1 BS or WS on all sisters.

Zorg · 08-12-2011, 04:14 PM

Two of the biggest issues with Faith are the scaling and situational use of it.

Scaling is a problem as you get D6 per turn regardless if you have 500 points or 1500 on the board... so yeah, good luck in Apocalypse girls.

The situational issue is that most of the powers are only good later in the game - I can't be bothered looking them all up, but I think there's only one power that can be used on the first turn to any real effect (the rending one). So you get d6 Faith points on turn 1 going first and you can only spend a max of 3 if you happened to buy 3 of that unit.

These tie in to the scale of the acts - in the WH codex they were fairly minor and going off all the time (fine, characterful but a bit un-fluffy some say).
Some people say they should be limited, but to make them interesting they'd need to be a hell of a lot more powerful than presented now and a hell of a lot less rigid and situational - something like HoMachaine's caster feats (or the Ork's Waaaagh) where you get one or two at the start of the game as defined by your HQs, and they only get used once but are actually (potentially) game changing.

Obvioulsy with the heavy comparrison that invites to HoMachine, GW wouldn't do it that way, so we get the small acts. But they are so limited, and combined with the stat reductions* some units got, make the list crap.

* Seraphim and Celestians - the army's assault units, had their Initiative reduced to 3... so less than anything worth assaulting... yeah, good move there GW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

So, yesterday I was sad.

I haven't been to a GW since the Scourges were released. That was early June something wasn't it?

I love the 40k background still, but the modelling and gaming scene has left me very flat lately - I mean there are models from the 90's still on sale fer crying out loud!

I posted a bit about this (and why dumping Specialist Games was a mistake) on my blog a while back:

Part 1

Part 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanoi

I'm just going to leave this here.

Martin Bishop, 19, said: "I am returning The Runering of Fangor.

"It includes two dice, each with about 40 sides and instructions on how to gain the trust of a 'cloud wizard'.

"And yet somehow I'm the ****ing bad guy."

He added: "Nevertheless I am now immune to Dwarven magic, so it hasn't been a complete waste of time."

evisiron · 08-12-2011, 06:24 PM

So I'm considering starting a bit of Blood Angels. Since all I have seen recently is Razorbacks, I would like to go the Descent of Angels route.

However, I have been playing Orks long enough that the ideas of
1. Power armour
and
2. Deep striking and not charging the same turn
...are somewhat alien to me.

I'm trying to figure out how to use these jump packs. I guess it's Deep strike behind cover and hop over to assault next turn?
Anyone have any advice?

PS: I read the Cheesegear BA starter guide when it went up. Very informative, cheers for posting.

Arcanoi · 08-12-2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorg

* Seraphim and Celestians - the army's assault units, had their Initiative reduced to 3... so less than anything worth assaulting... yeah, good move there GW

Indeed! If you splurge on a Canoness to lead them, Celestians, after passing two 3+ rolls, can assault as well as Assault Marines.

Tome · 08-12-2011, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanoi

Indeed! If you splurge on a Canoness to lead them, Celestians, after passing two 3+ rolls, can assault as well as Assault Marines.

Yep. They have to include an HQ just to maybe (roughly a 37% chance if you include the odds of rolling at least two Faith points that turn) be equivalent to a decidedly average assault unit. And that's before the combat even begins.

Ward's hate-on for the Sisters might not be showing up in their fluff, but it's sure showing through in the crunch.

Cheesegear · 08-12-2011, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorg

Obvioulsy with the heavy comparrison that invites to HoMachine, GW wouldn't do it that way, so we get the small acts. But they are so limited, and combined with the stat reductions* some units got, make the list crap.

Heh. HorMachine. I've thinking about going into that for a while, and not only because Club is having a tournament with it soon.

Quote:

Part 1

Part 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Then there's the other stuff on GW policies that almost seem designed to push me and other veterans out of the hobby, but I'm not going to get into that since it isn't important on a forum like this one. This and the above is all I feel I need to say. If I wanted to say more I'd make a blog.

Zorg, I wont tell you again. Get. Out. Of. My. Brain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evisiron

I would like to go the Descent of Angels route.
[...]
I'm trying to figure out how to use these jump packs. I guess it's Deep strike behind cover and hop over to assault next turn?
Anyone have any advice?

Here's my, personal DoA List.

Spoiler

What you need to do is have proper placements of your Priests and Librarian. It's a very git move when you do it, but, unfortunately, the list doesn't work if you can't place your Priests properly. Basically, it's the same theory you use with Big Meks and Kustom Force Fields. Don't put them front-and-centre of the unit. Put them on the very end near the unit next to them.

Your units should drop down. Terrain isn't quite an issue because your Priests should be Feel No Paining everything, so, Deep Strike into Difficult Terrain if you need to. Chaos Daemons do it all the time and they get by - even though they don't even have access to Razorbacks.

Shield of Sanguinius on your Librarian is likewise indispensable. When you're dropping down in front of your enemies' guns in open terrain, it wont be fun. Again, Shield of Sanguinius turns your Librarian into a KFF which you should be familiar with.

The Vanguard are used to hit what your other guys can't. This list is terrified of Devastators and similar units that unload torrents of fire because there isn't anything it can do about getting shot up on the turn it lands. Vanguard help.

Quote:

I read the Cheesegear BA starter guide when it went up. Very informative, cheers for posting.

Thank you, I feel it's the best one I've written thus far.

Otherworld Odd · 08-12-2011, 08:32 PM

Hey guiz, I'm back. So I think I've decided I want to purchase a battle force and I'm looking at Tyranids. They just seem my style. But the thing is, is that there seems to be a LOT of them in one army. Does this substantially raise the price of the army is does it all eventually get evened out due to so many troops coming in one box?

Penguinizer · 08-12-2011, 08:48 PM

The tyranids are a fairly expensive army. I wouldn't get the Battle Force though. It's fairly pitiful compared to the old one.

Cheesegear · 08-12-2011, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otherworld Odd

But the thing is, is that there seems to be a LOT of them in one army. Does this substantially raise the price of the army

Yes, yes it does.
Tyranids have a horrid $:Points ratio.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguinizer

The tyranids are a fairly expensive army. I wouldn't get the Battle Force though. It's fairly pitiful compared to the old one.

What? "The old one is better." is not a reason to not buy a Battleforce. If you had the option of buying one or t'other, maybe. But you don't. So that's no excuse.
That being said, that's not even true. The old Battleforce was 8 of everything and a Carnifex. And that's terrible. What are 8 Gaunts and Gants going to do for you? Jack all. What's one Carnifex going to do for you this edition? Not much.

Back to the Tyranid Battleforce, it's roughly 400 points, you don't really save any money by getting it. That being said, you'll need two or three of them to get an army started. Horde armies are hard on the wallet. So that's up to you.
If you want units that aren't in the battleforce, and you don't want units that are, you'll only waste about ten bucks buying everything separately.

Tychris1 · 08-12-2011, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otherworld Odd

Hey guiz, I'm back. So I think I've decided I want to purchase a battle force and I'm looking at Tyranids. They just seem my style. But the thing is, is that there seems to be a LOT of them in one army. Does this substantially raise the price of the army is does it all eventually get evened out due to so many troops coming in one box?

Yes, I can tell you as a Tyranid player that you're gona have to buy alot of the same units (Mainly the battleforce unless you want to go monstrous creature which you can't really). They're also god expensive so make sure you know what you're getting before you buy it (Because that one Pyrovore you bought because you got outmassed by Orks won't seemlesly blend into your army for everything). Everything is better in groups for the Tyranids, so don't get disheartened if your one Zoanthrope gets blown up, because that just means you haven't spammed enough of them to cover up for the loss!

Arcanoi · 08-12-2011, 11:29 PM

Why aren't there Horvigons? I'm sure I've lamented this before, but I would build a Horvigon-centered army in a heartbeat.