Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Tychris1]

Originally Posted by Incomp

EDIT: By the way, you sound like an awfully poor sport there. The GK player may have not known his codex very well, but not only was he right, he tried to make up for his mistake.

Eh, I was having an awful day considering every single game I played always had my synapse creatures getting sniped by long range heavy weaponry (Even in the one case where I hid them so they couldn't be seen because of a barrage strike) and whenever I got first turn I ended up getting the initiative stolen. It wasn't my best attitude, and I was backlashing at him for doing this one to many times (And by that I mean 6 times).

[Tome]

Originally Posted by Tarinaky

I don't have the book to hand but I'm pretty sure stuff like Banners normally only affect Morale rather than Leadership. (And thus don't apply to psykers)

Grey Knights Brotherhood Banners actually don't do anything for Morale OR Leadership. They auto-pass tests to activate their Force Weapons instead, as well as getting an extra attack each.

As an additional note, the GK player in question should have had a chance of IDing Swarmlord anyway. Nemesis Force Weapons also have the Daemonbane rule, which can ID any Psyker or Daemon they wound if it fails a Ld test. But not many people remember that one. He probably forgot his Psyk-Out Grenades as well.

[Trixie]

First, I apologize I haven't replied earlier stuff, been quite sick recently

Second,

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Anyway, it's Imperial Armour; It's all broken. If you're playing a non-IA army you'll generally wipe the floor. If you're playing another IA army, it'll be sort of fair, depending on whether or not either of you are actually trying to break Imperial Armour.

All broken? The only thing I studied in depth recently was IA X/XI, but both Badab War books have every single thing, except for a handful of okay options, being without exception overpriced and/or poor choice in the first place. Even optional SM HQs (with 3 exceptions) lose to regular, generic SM HQs. What's so broken there, exactly?

[IthilanorStPete]

I'm contemplating ideas for a (1500 pt) Death Company list, and having one significant issue - where should I put Astorath? If I could get rid of his jump pack, I'd just stick him in a Razorback with more DC, but as it is...what, should I use a Stormraven? And if so, would it be putting too many eggs in one basket to have said Stormraven also carrying a DC Dread?

Also, is it worth it to have a couple Chaplains in such a list?

[Tarinaky]

Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete

I'm contemplating ideas for a (1500 pt) Death Company list, and having one significant issue - where should I put Astorath? If I could get rid of his jump pack, I'd just stick him in a Razorback with more DC, but as it is...what, should I use a Stormraven? And if so, would it be putting too many eggs in one basket to have said Stormraven also carrying a DC Dread?

Also, is it worth it to have a couple Chaplains in such a list?

Take a squad of vanilla Assault Marines with Jump Packs and DoA them?
Alternatively you could DoA him on his own if you don't mind him being fairly useless.

Or give some of the DCs Jump Packs and DoA them.

Stormravens are good too though.

[Timberwolf]

Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete

I'm contemplating ideas for a (1500 pt) Death Company list, and having one significant issue - where should I put Astorath? If I could get rid of his jump pack, I'd just stick him in a Razorback with more DC, but as it is...what, should I use a Stormraven? And if so, would it be putting too many eggs in one basket to have said Stormraven also carrying a DC Dread?

Also, is it worth it to have a couple Chaplains in such a list?

Best place for Astorath... ehhhh. Thats a poser.

What would perhaps be useful to know is how many dreadnoughts you're planning on with this and what size units you're going to be bringing to the party.

As it is, in my Death Companying experience, I find that a Stormraven is a very good transport for them and you want to be putting non jump pack troopers in so you can fit more. Aaaand (I know people are going to disagree with me here) I prefer CCW DC for this as you aren't going to be shooting as there's no fire ports and I'd rather have the extra power weapon attacks. Chaplains are worth it, but they're 100 points minimum. That's 5 more DC and with 1500 points to spend, you need all the bodies on the ground you can get. Bigger points games, go crazy, for a DC themed army, there's nothing else that fits the theme to spend Elite slots on. Under that, save the points is my feeling.

A stormraven full of Death Company and toting a dreadnought is a lot of eggs in 1 basket, but then again (I am away from codex at the moment, so please forgive anything that's wrong) something that looks like this with triple Stormravens could alleviate this (you will definately need more than 1.2's good, 3's better)

Spoiler

Astorath 220

Death Company x 7 180
Power Weapon
Powerfist

Death Company 175
Jump Packs
Powerfist

Death Company Dreadnought 135
heavy Flamer

Death Company Dreadnought 135
heavy Flamer

Stormraven 230
Sponsons

Stormraven 230
Sponsons

Stormraven 230
Sponsons

This gives you a jump packing squad which is a logical place to put Astorath, I believe that you can even squeeze it in a Stormraven in a pinch (if you could check that for me as I cannot right now). A bigish mob of Death Company equipped for anti anything havoc straight from the stormraven and enough transport capacity that everything can be across the board at at least jump pack speed. Both squads of DC have a power weapon that strikes at initiative value (Astorath and the power weapon marine), both have a powerfist for MC's and vehicles and the Dreadnoughts'll put a hurting on anything.

You can drop a stormraven for more marines and another dreadnought once you hit the magic 15 DC marines, bringing them in by drop pod (they do need some form of transport, jump packs at the very least, although a drop pod is perfectly efficient and a lot cheaper). This kind of list is very fragile though, so be warned. You will be very thin on bodies on the ground.

[Arcanoi]

Originally Posted by Trixie

All broken? The only thing I studied in depth recently was IA X/XI, but both Badab War books have every single thing, except for a handful of okay options, being without exception overpriced and/or poor choice in the first place. Even optional SM HQs (with 3 exceptions) lose to regular, generic SM HQs. What's so broken there, exactly?

CG is certainly right about IA being broken, though he's off about it being uniformly overpowered. The problem is that there's a lot of underpowered and terrible chaff concealing a few absolutely gamebreaking problem units (Such as Lucius-Pattern Drop-pods and Earthshaker Guns). If you know about these units and make a concerted effort to include them, you'll crush any codex army that doesn't know exactly what you're fielding and tailor itself entirely to fight it, something many regular armies aren't even capable of doing.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Arcanoi

CG is certainly right about IA being broken, though he's off about it being uniformly overpowered.

After thinking about it some, and going back to read some of my IA books, this is true. While not uniformly overpowerd, some of it certainly is.
Or, maybe it's just the fact that everything I like (that I actually pay attention to and take time to remember) out of the IA books that I have, are overpowered. Fancy that? Weird.

Even so, it just goes back to the following...

If you know about these units and make a concerted effort to include them, you'll crush any codex army that doesn't know exactly what you're fielding and tailor itself entirely to fight it, something many regular armies aren't even capable of doing.

...The above is something that I tried to put into words, but obviously failed at.

[Tychris1]

Well cheese I'm buying the Titan because I'm going to get 3 battle forces before I do get the Titan. And also i'm confused, is the Bio Titan good or not? People have been saying certain things are underpowered or overpowered so where does the Hierophant fall?

[Arcanoi]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

Well cheese I'm buying the Titan because I'm going to get 3 battle forces before I do get the Titan. And also i'm confused, is the Bio Titan good or not? People have been saying certain things are underpowered or overpowered so where does the Hierophant fall?

It's just too expensive. Even with the two guns, it's only got 5 attacks. Taking two Hierodules is almost always better.

[Tychris1]

Huh, so the hierodules are pretty good then? I guess that being big and awesome looking doesn't translate to being awesome...... The temptation is still rather strong.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

And also i'm confused, is the Bio Titan good or not? People have been saying certain things are underpowered or overpowered so where does the Hierophant fall?

Depends which version you're looking at.
The version in The Anphelion Project is junk. It's extremely hard to kill, sure. But it doesn't kill anything right back.

Does anyone know if Imperial Armour - Apocalypse is any different to the regular Apocalypse book? Anyway, I don't have IA-A, so I'm just going to go with the regular Apocalypse version;

It's 1250 Points! Holy crap! Since this is Apocalypse, and FO Slots don't exist, are you sure you wouldn't prefer 6 Mawlocs? 5 Trygon Primes or 4 Tyrannofecies? I don't know how much these would cost in currency, but I'm not factoring that in since I'm speaking in game terms.

Anyway, everyone knows that Monstrous Creatures are better than Walkers (which is why the Dreadknight isn't one. If it was, it'd be a joke). True story. By that same token, Gargantuans are better than Super-Heavies. The Hierophant has two S10, Assault 8 weapons. It's a shame about it's BS though. The Heirophant is going to punch through a Warhound's shields and then smash all it's structure points in the same phase, or at least seriously damage it and probably take it down for a turn or two. Whereas the Heirophant has 10 wounds and Regeneration, it's a pain in the arse to kill even when you shoot it with SD-weapons.

Gagantuans are also resistant to Poison and Sniper rules (but not Rending). Which is amazing, because Super-Heavies are not resistant to Melta or Lance effects.

Basically, the Heirophant is amazing because it's a Gargantuan, and everyone else gets Super-Heavies. In that regard, it's pretty brutal. Having 16 S10, AP3 shots a turn isn't bad either, especially if you're choosing to shoot at vehicles, which, since this is Apocalypse and you're playing Tyranids and you've got nothing else to do the job, the Hierophant is, again, pretty good.


Where the problems arise, is that it's 1250 Points. That's...Kind of a lot. Especially when the games I've played are generally 3-4000 points per player. Although some people play more. If I spent a quarter of my points is spent on one model, it's pretty sad face. Especially if you end up playing against Guard or Lance-spam [Dark/] Eldar or any similar set-up where an army is set up to do a lot of high-strength individual wounds. Long Fang spam springs to mind.

If your opponent does happen to be one of those Infantry players, you're in for another sad face. Cover Saves turn your AP3 to jack - any Thousand Sons player who has long ditched them some time ago will tell you that - and in regards to T4, anything above S6 is a bit of a waste. Or T8, if Plague Marines and Blood Angels abound.

Anyway, back to the 1250 points issue.

Tyrannofex - 295 Points
Rupture Cannon, Dessicator Larvae, Regeneration

x4 = 1180. You've now got 24 Wounds, you've still got the Regeneration, but now your opponent has 4 targets to shoot at, and you can spread out your S10 shots as needed instead of firing them all at one target. Although, now, you only have 8, instead of 16. But, still, you're not firing them all at the same thing.

The only reason - that I can see - to take a Hierophant over 4 Tyrannofecies, is if I know that I'm going to face a lot of Poison or Rending. Which isn't a whole lot of armies. Basically down to Dark Eldar, and highly specific Imperial Guard and Space Marine lists.
Or, you're facing Super-Heavies, which your Gargantuan is good against, and they commonly field D-Strength weapons which will make your regular MCs sad.

This last part is pure IMO;
The Hierophant is ugly as sin. I would not want to see that model on my shelf unless I was planning to use it - a lot.

Originally Posted by Arcanoi

Even with the two guns, it's only got 5 attacks. Taking two Hierodules is almost always better.

The Hierophant I'm looking at has 8 attacks and then everything gets aut-hit at I1 and wounds on a 4+ anyway. The Heirophant is not bad in combat. But it's wasting its guns if it is in there

Hierodules are great. Easily on par - or better - with a pair with a pair of Tyrannofecies for the same points. Or, it's Apocalypse, 100 point difference isn't that much.

[Tychris1]

So the Hierophant isn't bad, it just costs alot for what it does. I was thinking about giving the Titan some home made stuff anyway so that seems like an incentive. Maybe I could cut the cost by 250 points, so it's flat 1000 and can fit better into 4000 point games and still have a good army.

As for the appearance thing, it's tyranids there supposed to be ugly ferocious monsters. It's just the most biggest, monstrous, cinematic capable tyranid out there in my opinion. Looking at it is just, awe inspiring (especially if you trick it out with terrain).

[Arcanoi]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

The Hierophant I'm looking at has 8 attacks and then everything gets aut-hit at I1 and wounds on a 4+ anyway. The Heirophant is not bad in combat. But it's wasting its guns if it is in there

Hierodules are great. Easily on par - or better - with a pair with a pair of Tyrannofecies for the same points. Or, it's Apocalypse, 100 point difference isn't that much.

Right, for some reason whenever I hear Hierophant or Hierodule I run to my IA4, despite the fact that everything in that book is pretty much awful (Except the power fences >_>).

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

As for the appearance thing, it's tyranids there supposed to be ugly ferocious monsters. It's just the most biggest, monstrous, cinematic capable tyranid out there in my opinion. Looking at it is just, awe inspiring (especially if you trick it out with terrain).

Well, the Hierodules, Carnfecies, Mawlocs, Trygons (etc.) don't look bad at all. At least not to me. I like the Stone Crushers an the Malanthrope, and all sorts of things. The Hierophant is the only Tyranid model that I don't like.

Mostly because it's too thin. Yeah, that's it.

Originally Posted by Arcanoi

Right, for some reason whenever I hear Hierophant or Hierodule I run to my IA4, despite the fact that everything in that book is pretty much awful (Except the power fences >_>).

But nearly everything in IA4 (2006) was reprinted, literally a few months later in IA-Apocalypse, and then Apocalypse 'for the masses', both printed in 2007. And then a bunch of things in IA4 were superseded by the most recent Codex (Hello, Trygon).

[Tychris1]

Well, in comparison to everything else the thing is freaking gargantuan and thick. The thinnest part of the body is the legs which is still pretty big, although it compensates with being long and agile looking giving the hierophant a muh more sleek and quick look and a spidery feel. Although perhaps if they thickened it a little more then it would probably be a bit better but still.

[Timberwolf]

I once tried to stop a Hierophant with 1250 pointrs of regular codex BA stuff. Lascannon spam ahoy. I didn't even knock a wound off it as, not only does it have regen, T8 I think, may be wrong on that... it also has a 3+ invulnerable save if I recall correctly. I'm a bit hazy as this is not my favourite 40k moment and I'd like to forget it. Anyway, I do know that when I caused a wound, the owner of the Hierophant, who was using my treasonous dice, kept saving it.

[Arcanoi]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf

I once tried to stop a Hierophant with 1250 pointrs of regular codex BA stuff. Lascannon spam ahoy. I didn't even knock a wound off it as, not only does it have regen, T8 I think, may be wrong on that... it also has a 3+ invulnerable save if I recall correctly. I'm a bit hazy as this is not my favourite 40k moment and I'd like to forget it. Anyway, I do know that when I caused a wound, the owner of the Hierophant, who was using my treasonous dice, kept saving it.

Nope, it's got a 6++ save. If it had a 3++ save, your opponent was being a jerk and mixing old rules with new ones. In 4th (The book the Hierophant was built for), Warp Field is a special rule that gives 2+/6++ saves. In 5th, it's the special rule that gives Zoanthropes their 3++ save.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Arcanoi

If it had a 3++ save, your opponent was being a jerk and mixing old rules with new ones.

The old rules no longer exist, there is a new Codex that supersedes the old one. The Hierophant, does indeed have a 3+ Invulnerable. One of the reasons why it is so very fantastic.
When you ask your opponant "What does Warp Field do?" and he shows you his current-rules Codex and shows you the Zoanthrope ability, you can't say "No." Because that's clearly what Warp Field is and does.

They are also totally broken in that being Gargantuan they are unaffected by psychic powers without a strength value - such as Null Zone.

But, that's Apocalypse, and everything is broken. That's why you bring your own Apocalypse unit like a Titanhammer Squad and you take it out.
...This is clearly what I meant when I said Imperial Armour was broken. Apocalypse is broken. Not IA. My bad.

[Arcanoi]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

The old rules no longer exist, there is a new Codex that supersedes the old one. The Hierophant, does indeed have a 3+ Invulnerable. One of the reasons why it is so very fantastic.
When you ask your opponant "What does Warp Field do?" and he shows you his current-rules Codex and shows you the Zoanthrope ability, you can't say "No." Because that's clearly what Warp Field is and does.

They are also totally broken in that being Gargantuan they are unaffected by psychic powers without a strength value - such as Null Zone.

But, that's Apocalypse, and everything is broken. That's why you bring your own Apocalypse unit like a Titanhammer Squad and you take it out.
...This is clearly what I meant when I said Imperial Armour was broken. Apocalypse is broken. Not IA. My bad.

Except it's stated that the Hierophant has the psychic power Warp Field, which doesn't exist in the new codex.

[Tychris1]

Alright, so Hierophant is pretty good, but I have to worry about Titanhammers. Now how to get around that obstacle.

Edit: Arcanoi, where is the psychic power Warp Field then? Because the only warp field I know of is the 3++ one.

[Arcanoi]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

Alright, so Hierophant is pretty good, but I have to worry about Titanhammers. Now how to get around that obstacle.

Edit: Arcanoi, where is the psychic power Warp Field then? Because the only warp field I know of is the 3++ one.

Like I said, it's in the 4th Edition Tyranids codex.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

but I have to worry about Titanhammers. Now how to get around that obstacle.

How do you get around 30+ Hammernators?
...Not easily.

Lysander can go round-for-round against a Hierophant. But, that's why he's 40K's Beowulf.

[Talkkno]

Are Nob bikers still worth running despite the increase in their countermeasures out there now a days?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Talkkno

Are Nob bikers still worth running despite the increase in their countermeasures out there now a days?

They're still good. Just nowhere near as good as they used to be. For example, if you've got a 1500 point army, and 4-500 points of that is taken up by Nob Bikers, you're probably in trouble. Since 400 points is a lot of Boyz.

The best setups for Orks these days is
Shootas, Shootas, Lootas.
Battlewagon Spam (minimum 5, can not be scaled down)
Wazdakka.
Grotsnik if you can afford to pimp out everyone.

[Tren]

Originally Posted by Arcanoi

Like I said, it's in the 4th Edition Tyranids codex.

Right. Strictly speaking, there is no Warp Field psychic power anymore, so it wouldn't even get the 6++-- though that's just as douchey in the opposite direction as claiming it gets the 2+/3++ (if less impactful on game balance). The Hierophant is still a beast with a 2+/6++, and I've seen it perform admirably on a number of occasions, using the rules as written.

[HalfTangible]

Played a game with an in-store army today. I didn't take notes, but here's a basic summary of how it went.

I was Eldar, playing against another new W40k player with Grey Knights.

Spoiler

Eldar -

Guardians (10?) w/ Shuriken Cannon
Guardians (10?) w/ Brightlance Cannon
Rangers (5)
War Walkers (2)
Dire Avengers (4? 5?) w/Exarch
Wraithlord (Brightlance and Shuriken Cannon?)
Grav Tank
-Banshee, Farseer, and I think a Banshee Exarch, i was never clear on that.

Grey Knights
Brother Captain
-Assault Terminators
Terminators (Second squad, ranged)
Assault Marines(?)
Unidentified Ranged unit
Dreadknight

Objective: The Grey Knights are currently stationed in one building, surrounded by an eldar warhost. The Eldar's goal is to take the building, with at least one unit not in combat, by turn 3. The Grey Knights just need to prevent that. (For learning purposes all units could take the objective)

Deployment: My force was split into three groups across the board: on the right, my wraithlord and dire avengers crouched in area forest cover. My rangers and Brightlance guardian squad were doing the same in the center, with the rangers in akward positioning for firing. The war walkers and grav tank were just to the left, and the last group of guardians was in another area cover on the left.

The Grey Knight player's forces were clustered on the building - his assault squad was on the right, his brother captain and banner-bearer up front with one squad of terminators, and the other squad was on the left side of the building. The ranged unit had taken up firing positions up top.

I won initiative, and advanced my war walkers, Grav Tank and dire avengers forward. The Grav tank moved it's full 24", so it couldn't fire or unload it's passengers. The Dire Avengers and wraithlord fired on one of the terminator squads, wiping three out thanks to lucky rolls. My rangers were supposed to aim at the units up top, but the grav tank blocked LOS, so they dealt with the other two as my shuriken cannon fired on the ranged unit positioned up top, getting no one.

My opponent did the exact opposite of what i expected and threw his assault marines at my dire avengers (i hadn't expected them to be able to reach, so i thought they would pull in closer to the building and wait for my own units to advance) His Dreadknight (jump infantry HOORAH) went after my wraithlord. His shooting didn't do much, but his assault squad dropped two of my dire avengers, and i dropped two of his assault squad.

The grav tank unloaded it's banshees, who moved to engage the brother-captain's terminators. They attacked the terminators, lost two of their own, and their morale broke. They and (their exarch?) pulled back and played no further significant part in the battle (they regrouped next turn but didn't make any wounds) My dire avengers finished off his assault units, as the wraithlord and dreadknight both brought each other down to one wound. He dropped my war walkers before they came in range to fight.

At this point my brain started working and i moved up my guardians, but then we realized we'd been measuring wrong so I could still only fire two shots, neither of which wounded. Fortunately for me, my wraithlord had finished off the dreadknight without dieing itself, so i had the thing run into the objective, just in time to contest it.

Then in his shooting phase every grey knight remaining opened fire and blew it to bits, and the game went to the Grey Knights since there was none of my squads or units in the objective.

Afterthoughts: I should've advanced my guardians more. They would've lost their cover saves, but the point was to get at least one unit into the building. In addition, most of my guardians were out of range for the whole game, which isn't a good way to play if you're the aggressor.

If i had known the walker could run onto the terrain, i would have focused more fire on the terminator squad, as it had one of the only weapons that could harm the wraithlord.

I honestly thought the game went well despite the loss: i only lost a few units and killed a whole bunch of his. The problem was that I wasn't aggressive enough - my guardian squads spent most of the game far, far away from the goal, and even though they had cover, the grey knights were out of range of most of my units anyway.

The Wraithlord's versatility surprised me - it only got two attacks to the Dreadknight's four, but still beat down the Dreadknight and needed most of the ranged squad i can't identify to bring it down (the one terminator with a weapon that could hurt it didn't wound)

[Tychris1]

So I guess AP1 weapons will bring down the Hierophant rather quickly.

As for the army thing I think I'll try to use a in-store army like you did, either Orks or Dark Eldar. See what situation they put me in.

[Winterwind]

Originally Posted by HalfTangible

The Wraithlord's versatility surprised me - it only got two attacks to the Dreadknight's four, but still beat down the Dreadknight and needed most of the ranged squad i can't identify to bring it down (the one terminator with a weapon that could hurt it didn't wound)

That was sort of a failed gamble on the part of your opponent - he could have activated a psychic power to give all of his terminators enough Strength to wound it, but he probably wanted to save up his psychic power use for activating his force weapons instead.

[FireJustice]

Tyranids Apocalypse
the hierophant form Apocalypse ruleboook (the 1250pts one) totally not worth

the one frmo IA4: anphelion project is cheaper (835) but uses that mass points rules that to me is just a glorificated FNP (I mean, it doenst really protect against deep s&$t that will be used agains your titan)

now, from Imperial Armour Apocalypse, the other gargantuan has a lot more appeal.

The Harridan cost only 900 points, has two str10 assault 6 guns, its a flyer, can even carry a brood of gargoyles. And there's a formation that you can use to block the sun (always cool, huh?)

anyway, i agree that you should get Trygons, Mawlocs and Tervigons first. They're much needed.

PS: just saw in apocalypse reloaded: there's a hell of a formation that need 15 warriors. they can use a power that gives catalyst and prefered enemy to basically all your units. not too shabby