Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[HalfTangible]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

My thoughts exactly incomp. Why are you beating up a seal? Of all things a seal? That's just cruel and jerkish.

Also what's so good about Razorbacks?

They're cheap, carry twelve, and can be taken as dedicated transports.

[Tychris1]

How cheap exactly?

[Ricky S]

Originally Posted by HalfTangible

They're cheap, carry twelve, and can be taken as dedicated transports.

Razorbacks can only carry 6. So a unit of 5 and an IC.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Zorg

My thoughts on Rasorspam:

Spoiler

I like small tanks and I cannot lie,
You other brothers can't deny,
That when a girl walks in with an Battlefoam Case,
And a Razor list in your face,
You get sprung!

Wanna pull out? Tough!
'Cause you notice that 'back was stuffed,
Assault meltas and a Priest it’s bearing,
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring.
Oh baby, I wanna play you,
And something so new,
My clubmates tried to warn me,
But that ‘back you got makes m-m-m-me so horny

Ooh, she’s Raz-o'-back-in,
You say you wanna Pitch Deploy?
Well, Annihilate me, Annihilate me,
'Cause you ain't that average groupie.
I've seen them glancin’,
To hell with lancin’,
She's sweat, wet,
Got it goin' like a Melta 'Vet.

I'm tired of magazines,
Sayin' fluff-bunnies are the thing,
Take the average blog man and ask him that -
She gotta pack Razorbacks!

So, fellas! (Yeah!) Fellas! (Yeah!)
Has your girlfriend got the ‘back? (Hell yeah!)
Tell 'em to spam it! (Spam it!) Spam it! (Spam it!)
Spam that MSU ‘back!
Baby got ‘backs!

(Demon paint on an ‘ard Boyz booty)
Baby got ‘backs!

I like 'em small, and on wheels,
And when I'm clubbing a seal,
I just can't help myself, I'm actin' like an animal
Now here's my scandal:
I wanna get you home
And ugh, double-up, ugh, ugh
I ain't talkin' bout Comp Score,
'Cause playin’ nice is such a bore,

I want lists tuned, tricked-out and nasty,
So bring that Leaf Blower,
Mix-a-Lot'll knock it over,
Gunnin’ for a place at that top table.
So I'm lookin' at bat-rep videos
Fluff-bunny carebares playin’ like schmoes,
You can have them newbies,
I'll keep my opponents like Kirby,

A word to the WAAC soul players, I wanna get with ya
I won't cuss or hit ya,
But I gotta be straight when I say I wanna *win* -
It’s the way I was born.
‘backs got it goin' on,
A lot of wimps won't like this song,
'Cause them punks like to hit it and quit it,
And I'd rather stay and play,
'Cause I'm long, and I'm strong,
And I'm down to get the RazorSpam on!

So, ladies! {Yeah!} Ladies! {Yeah}
If you wanna roll in my Mercedes? {Yeah!}
Then turn around! Stick it out!
Even Jervis has to shout
Baby got ‘backs!

Baby got ‘backs!
Yeah, baby ... when it comes to army lists, White Dwarf ain't got nothin',
to do with my selection. Vanilla Captain? Ha ha, only if he’s on a bike.

So your girlfriend rolls a Rhino, lovin’ to not move and fire from,
But Rhinos sitting still are just time bombs,
My army list don't want none,
Unless you've got guns, hun,
You can do Storm Ravens or Dreadnoughts,
But please don't lose that ‘back.
Some brothers wanna play that "comp" role,
And tell you that the ‘back ain't gold,
So they toss it and leave it,
And I pull up quick to retrieve it.

So BoLS says Sisters 're back,
Well I ain't down with that!
'Cause the ‘dex is small and Faith is stinkin’
But I'm still thinkin' bout switchin’,

To the metal dames in that magazine:
You ain't it, Miss Thing!
Give me plastic, I can't resist it,
Lead and FineCast just miss it!
Some knucklehead tried to dis,
'Cause melta-spam girls are on my list,
He had game but he chose to nerf 'em,
And I roll up quick and table 'im.

So ladies, if the ‘back is around,
And you want a hardcore throw down,
Dial 1-900-MIXALOT
And bring them nasty thoughts
Baby got 'BACKS!

I...I love you. Nothing, ever, will be as good as this. Ever. You have won all past and future threads, forever. I am slightly disappointed that you mention BoLS and Kirby, but not YTTH/Stelek - who should at least have a reference in this song considering the rest.

Originally Posted by Tychris1

Also what's so good about Razorbacks?

Err...

Well, Here's why Rhinos are bad. But, Blood Angels also get cheaper Razorbacks that're also Fast to boot.

Originally Posted by Tychris1

How cheap exactly?

Cheap enough to be better than anything else in Codex game.

[Tychris1]

Soooo, they're just cheaper Rhinos? I don't see why a transport would be broken or any trouble at all considering it's... well a transport.

And again, how cheap are they?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

And again, how cheap are they?

Did you even read this that I already linked?

[HalfTangible]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

Soooo, they're just cheaper Rhinos? I don't see why a transport would be broken or any trouble at all considering it's... well a transport.

And again, how cheap are they?

55 points if i remember correctly.

And they're trouble because Razorbacks all get weaponry and are still vehicles, so they'll be able to get a BUNCH of rounds off before you can bring 'em down. If you unload your units as well...

Well, kiss something's butt goodbye.

[Tychris1]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Did you even read this that I already linked?

Yes, yes I did, but I don't know how much a Tactical Squad Marine costs, or how much the two weapons on the Razorback cost (or if they cost anything at all), and thus can't take away the proper numbers to get at how much they cost by themselves.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

My thoughts exactly incomp. Why are you beating up a seal? Of all things a seal? That's just cruel and jerkish.

Cruel and jerkish like for example running a BAzorback-spam list perhaps...?

[Timberwolf]

Razorbacks are good because...

For 55 points you can put a vehicle with a Twin linked heavy weapon on the board. For 85 points, you can make it a lascannon. This is exactly the same as a scout squad with missile launcher but it'll be a bad day if it doesn't hit as it's twin linked and BS4.

Blood Angels Assault squads, if they take their jump packs off, get a 35 point discount therefore, even if it's just a standard RB with Heavy Bolters or a T/L Heavy Flamer (rerolls to wound) you get this vehicle for 20 points, 50 if you splash on bigger guns.

Blood Angel RB's are also fast, they can go 18 inches, pop smoke and then be in your face next round, and that's assuming you're not playing Dawn of war and they start halfway up the table. They can also move 12 inches and still fire their primary weapon (only an issue with Las / plas, but still...)

Because they're so cheap, you'll be facing at least 6 of them. Plus another 6 for elites and fast attack possibly. That's a lot of tanks. Looking at my main 1500 point tournament list, I can maybe, if everything goes right and I get first turn, kill 4 of them before the rest turn up. And that's just the tanks, not their contents.

Also, because they're so cheap, there's a lot of room for other things in there. Considering that a fully tooled, 6 Razorback loaded with assault marines Troops choice selection comes in at 800 - 900 points roughly, figure another 150 or so for a HQ, that, in a lot of tournaments, leaves you 450 points for something big. Like a Gunship, or more Razorbacks toting Devastators that hug the baseline and throw lascannon shots at you.

A tac squad with Powerfist, Plasma gun and Plasma cannon is 210 points. Assault marines with a powerfist and melta gun and a Las / plas (ie the most expensive option) razorback is 225 points. For that extra 15 points, you get a vehicle with 2 very good guns (that don't overheat) albeit you lose a few ablative wounds.

[Arcanoi]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

My thoughts exactly incomp. Why are you beating up a seal? Of all things a seal? That's just cruel and jerkish.

I'm not sure about @Zorg's particular area, but at my store, 'Clubbing a Seal' is vernacular for taking a Razorspam or similar-strength list against a fluff list or new player.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Arcanoi

I'm not sure about @Zorg's particular area, but at my store, 'Clubbing a Seal' is vernacular for taking a Razorspam or similar-strength list against a fluff list or new player.

The song Zorg posted used a lot of vernacular and phrases that veteran and Internet players use...And I loved it. Made my day.

[Renegade Paladin]

Marines got Razorbacks, Guard got lascannons. I fail to be particularly concerned by Razorspam, at least the variations on it that I've seen attempted in my metagame.

Anyway, I picked up a second Hellhound and a Basilisk at Gen Con. What are you converting that Basilisk into, I hear you say? Nothing! My metagame dictates that I require AP3 and the ability to fire directly, since everyone and their brother deep strikes power armored stuff inside 24" of my vehicles. I'm trying to rig a way to use an autocannon mount from my Aegis defense lines to make it switchable between Basilisk and Hydra, but honestly the terrain autocannon mounts just look ugly on a vehicle. Maybe that's just me, but I don't know. Also, is the Basilisk kit supposed to not have a heavy bolter hull mount in it?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

Marines got Razorbacks, Guard got lascannons.

Guard are one of the few armies out there able to beat Razorspam reliably. Basically by having either (or both of!);
1. More Las- and Auto- Cannons than they have Razorbacks. At least by 50% or even 100% more. After you destroy their tanks, Razorspams are down to five-man squads which are easily picked off by Lasgun fire.
2. More Vehicles than Razorspam that also pack anti-everything weapons.

...I like Guard.

[Renegade Paladin]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Guard are one of the few armies out there able to beat Razorspam reliably. Basically by having either (or both of!);
1. More Las- and Auto- Cannons than they have Razorbacks. At least by 50% or even 100% more. After you destroy their tanks, Razorspams are down to five-man squads which are easily picked off by Lasgun fire.
2. More Vehicles than Razorspam that also pack anti-everything weapons.

...I like Guard.

Yeah, well. Sadly, the newest Marine player likes to centerpiece his Razorspam with a Land Raider Redeemer that will not die.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

Yeah, well. Sadly, the newest Marine player likes to centerpiece his Razorspam with a Land Raider Redeemer that will not die.

*cough*Meltavets*cough*Outflank them*cough*Gunships are awesome*cough*.

Other options include, but are not limited to;
Manticore Rockets, Medusas (Bastion-Breachers are slightly unfair), Devil Dogs and Leman Russ Demolishers and/or Battle Tanks with Melta sponsons because Lumbering Behemoth is the best.

[Renegade Paladin]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

*cough*Meltavets*cough*Outflank them*cough*Gunships are awesome*cough*.

Other options include, but are not limited to;
Manticore Rockets, Medusas (Bastion-Breachers are slightly unfair), Devil Dogs and Leman Russ Demolishers.

I had two Chimeras of meltavets and a Demolisher. Sadly, my Demolisher decided to get blown sky high by a single krak missile from a scout (who was barely in the side arc) and the meltavets were slow on reserve and got de-meched when they showed, so it didn't work out too well. No room for the Manticore in the list that week; it was a team game that I believe I've already posted about. Regardless, the LR did eat melta (and DCCW); it just always rolled two or three for penetration.

[Renegade Paladin]

ANYWAY, enough of my kvetching about Land Raiders. Tournament on the 20th. My initial list idea, modified from a list I used in a campaign a couple months ago. The modifications consist of dropping a heavy weapons squad from the platoon and changing to the Basilisk from a Manticore to get 120 points, which I spent on a Devil Dog. Thoughts welcome.

Spoiler

1500 points

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Infantry Platoon - 200
-Platoon Command Squad
--Lascannon team
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team
--Power weapon
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon team

Hellhound - 130

Devil Dog - 120

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 190
-Heavy bolter sponsons
-Camo netting

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

Basilisk - 155
-Heavy flamer
-Camo netting

I plan to deploy the Basilisk in a corner away from any objectives, to deny the enemy the chance to take out the heavy artillery and grab an objective in one go. The one thing that makes me uncomfortable is a lack of troops to spread around objectives; if I intend to bubble-wrap my artillery, for instance, I have to use meltavets on objectives. I think that between the Demolisher, meltavets, and Devil Dog, I should have any pesky heavy armor potentially taken care of. Had I ten more points I'd think about getting a Bane Wolf instead, but the only ten point thing I could easily cut is the power weapon in the blob, and I'd rather keep it in there.

[Zorg]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

I...I love you. Nothing, ever, will be as good as this. Ever. You have won all past and future threads, forever. I am slightly disappointed that you mention BoLS and Kirby, but not YTTH/Stelek - who should at least have a reference in this song considering the rest.

I mentioned BoLS and Kirby because I was posting on BoLS with it originally and Kirby rhymed better. BoLS comments also censor Stelek's name to ****** (seriously) so while he would have worked in context it wasn't an option.


As Arcanoi mentioned "clubbing a baby seal" is common slang amongst WAAC/Tourney players to table a n00b or 'casual player' with an uber-death tourney list - ie not hard, cruel and a jerkface thing to do. Thus, why it's his scandal.

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by Zorg

My thoughts on Rasorspam:

Spoiler

I like small tanks and I cannot lie,
You other brothers can't deny,
That when a girl walks in with an Battlefoam Case,
And a Razor list in your face,
You get sprung!

Wanna pull out? Tough!
'Cause you notice that 'back was stuffed,
Assault meltas and a Priest it’s bearing,
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring.
Oh baby, I wanna play you,
And something so new,
My clubmates tried to warn me,
But that ‘back you got makes m-m-m-me so horny

Ooh, she’s Raz-o'-back-in,
You say you wanna Pitch Deploy?
Well, Annihilate me, Annihilate me,
'Cause you ain't that average groupie.
I've seen them glancin’,
To hell with lancin’,
She's sweat, wet,
Got it goin' like a Melta 'Vet.

I'm tired of magazines,
Sayin' fluff-bunnies are the thing,
Take the average blog man and ask him that -
She gotta pack Razorbacks!

So, fellas! (Yeah!) Fellas! (Yeah!)
Has your girlfriend got the ‘back? (Hell yeah!)
Tell 'em to spam it! (Spam it!) Spam it! (Spam it!)
Spam that MSU ‘back!
Baby got ‘backs!

(Demon paint on an ‘ard Boyz booty)
Baby got ‘backs!

I like 'em small, and on wheels,
And when I'm clubbing a seal,
I just can't help myself, I'm actin' like an animal
Now here's my scandal:
I wanna get you home
And ugh, double-up, ugh, ugh
I ain't talkin' bout Comp Score,
'Cause playin’ nice is such a bore,

I want lists tuned, tricked-out and nasty,
So bring that Leaf Blower,
Mix-a-Lot'll knock it over,
Gunnin’ for a place at that top table.
So I'm lookin' at bat-rep videos
Fluff-bunny carebares playin’ like schmoes,
You can have them newbies,
I'll keep my opponents like Kirby,

A word to the WAAC soul players, I wanna get with ya
I won't cuss or hit ya,
But I gotta be straight when I say I wanna *win* -
It’s the way I was born.
‘backs got it goin' on,
A lot of wimps won't like this song,
'Cause them punks like to hit it and quit it,
And I'd rather stay and play,
'Cause I'm long, and I'm strong,
And I'm down to get the RazorSpam on!

So, ladies! {Yeah!} Ladies! {Yeah}
If you wanna roll in my Mercedes? {Yeah!}
Then turn around! Stick it out!
Even Jervis has to shout
Baby got ‘backs!

Baby got ‘backs!
Yeah, baby ... when it comes to army lists, White Dwarf ain't got nothin',
to do with my selection. Vanilla Captain? Ha ha, only if he’s on a bike.

So your girlfriend rolls a Rhino, lovin’ to not move and fire from,
But Rhinos sitting still are just time bombs,
My army list don't want none,
Unless you've got guns, hun,
You can do Storm Ravens or Dreadnoughts,
But please don't lose that ‘back.
Some brothers wanna play that "comp" role,
And tell you that the ‘back ain't gold,
So they toss it and leave it,
And I pull up quick to retrieve it.

So BoLS says Sisters 're back,
Well I ain't down with that!
'Cause the ‘dex is small and Faith is stinkin’
But I'm still thinkin' bout switchin’,

To the metal dames in that magazine:
You ain't it, Miss Thing!
Give me plastic, I can't resist it,
Lead and FineCast just miss it!
Some knucklehead tried to dis,
'Cause melta-spam girls are on my list,
He had game but he chose to nerf 'em,
And I roll up quick and table 'im.

So ladies, if the ‘back is around,
And you want a hardcore throw down,
Dial 1-900-MIXALOT
And bring them nasty thoughts
Baby got 'BACKS!

At start i finded it funny, now i am a little scared. Also sing that one and put it on youtube.

Originally Posted by Tychris1

My thoughts exactly incomp. Why are you beating up a seal? Of all things a seal? That's just cruel and jerkish.

Also what's so good about Razorbacks?

Gunz! And higher armor i think.

[Penguinizer]

The good thing about razorbacks is cheap access to good weaponry in an armored platform.

With GK, you get str 6 heavy bolters for what, less than 120 points?

Lascannon+Plasmagun razorbacks pack pretty considerable firepower while being cheap.

[otakuryoga]

that....that was
absolutely BEE-YOO-TEE-FUL zorg

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Zorg

I mentioned BoLS and Kirby because I was posting on BoLS with it originally and Kirby rhymed better. BoLS comments also censor Stelek's name to ****** (seriously) so while he would have worked in context it wasn't an option.

Wow. People hate Stelek. Who knew?

Still, something about 'Yes, The Truth Hurts' wouldn'tve been censored, right?

[Renegade Paladin]

Incidentally, before I glue a hull weapon to my Basilisk, is a heavy bolter or heavy flamer generally better for artillery? If infantry gets close enough that I can't shoot the cannon at it then I probably want a flamer, but if I suffer a weapon destroyed I'd rather not have to mad-dash all the way across the board just to be able to shoot anything. Thoughts?

[Ricky S]

Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

Incidentally, before I glue a hull weapon to my Basilisk, is a heavy bolter or heavy flamer generally better for artillery? If infantry gets close enough that I can't shoot the cannon at it then I probably want a flamer, but if I suffer a weapon destroyed I'd rather not have to mad-dash all the way across the board just to be able to shoot anything. Thoughts?

Heavy bolter. You shouldnt be around enemy infantry and your infantry should be protecting your basilisk from deepstriking/outflanking units. If you get a weapon destroyed and have a flamer then you risk losing your entire unit by driving it up to the enemy. In kill points that is not something you want.


Does taking tactical marines instead of assault marines reduce the power of razorspam with blood angels?

[gabado]

Originally Posted by Ricky S

Does taking tactical marines instead of assault marines reduce the power of razorspam with blood angels?

yes, a razor back can't carry ten models, meaning that you can't have a tactical squad carrying more then bolters. furthermore, assault marines cost the same amount and are deadly in an assault. the razorback will cost an additional 35pt if you run with the tactical squad.

[Tychris1]

55 points for a tank with heavy weaponry. That means for every 3 Razor backs a BA player takes I can take 1 Unupgraded Carnifex, fantastic! 4/5 razorbacks I can get a Trygon/Prime. Holy crap does that sound awful.

My disposition towards the phrase "Clubbing a seal" remains the same considering that's exactly what happened to me after I first got my army and went up againt the store owners Dark Eldar Army.

But you know what? I feel like doing exactly that, so I need the forum to help me collaborate a lean mean Tyranid machine at 1500 points for a 3 round tournament.

This is what I have at my disposal

Spoiler

2 Zoanthropes (Can also proxy to Doom)
15 Hormagaunts
17 Termagaunts
10 Gargoyles
8 Genestealers
A broodlord
A Hive Tyrant
2 Carnifex
A Trygon (Can proxy)
3 Warriors

So, grab your clubs, cause I want to squash some seal head.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Ricky S

Does taking tactical marines instead of assault marines reduce the power of razorspam with blood angels?

Yes.

Tactical Squad (x5) - 180 Points
+ Razorback: Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasmaguns

Assault Squad (x5) - 155 Points
+ Razorback: Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasmaguns

25 Points less to do it with Assault Squads. Bonus because Assault Squads can take special weapons in squads of five, whereas Tactical Marines can't. So you can an extra Melta or Flamer to cover the points. Other wargear is mostly the same so we wont count those. Then you've got Priests and Unleash Rage, which greatly benefit Assault Marines. Sure, Priests and UR benefit Tactical Marines, but not as much.

Now, if you want Tactical Marines for Razorspam, it depends how many points you want to play. Once you've got past six squads and still have points to spare it gets tricky. Basically 'depends on what you want to do'. Space Wolves and Codex Marines have more 'support', for lack of a better word for Tactical Marines in Razorbacks.

[Ricky S]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Yes.

Tactical Squad (x5) - 180 Points
+ Razorback: Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasmaguns

Assault Squad (x5) - 155 Points
+ Razorback: Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasmaguns

25 Points less to do it with Assault Squads. Bonus because Assault Squads can take special weapons in squads of five, whereas Tactical Marines can't. So you can an extra Melta or Flamer to cover the points. Other wargear is mostly the same so we wont count those. Then you've got Priests and Unleash Rage, which greatly benefit Assault Marines. Sure, Priests and UR benefit Tactical Marines, but not as much.

Now, if you want Tactical Marines for Razorspam, it depends how many points you want to play. Once you've got past six squads and still have points to spare it gets tricky. Basically 'depends on what you want to do'. Space Wolves and Codex Marines have more 'support', for lack of a better word for Tactical Marines in Razorbacks.

I would only be playing up to 1500pts as I am not in a club so I never get the chance to play more than that anyway. Basically I am just going for marines in razorbacks and baal predators. If I ever did make this army larger than the 6 tacticals I would just add more predators to the list and another captain with honour guard.

It is completely mechanized which is opposite to my current all infantry space marine army. Sure I could do the same thing with codex marines but I like what the blood angels codex offers. Fast tanks, sanguinary priests and baal predators which have been my favourite 40k tank since 2002.

I am making up the "Vorpal Swords" chapter so I figured assault marines would suit that better but now I am just going to give all of my tactical marine sergeants a powersword (vorpal sword ).

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Ricky S

I am making up the "Vorpal Swords" chapter so I figured assault marines would suit that better but now I am just going to give all of my tactical marine sergeants a powersword (vorpal sword ).

But...Assault Marines do suit you better. What?