Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII

Private-Prinny · 08-03-2011, 06:54 PM

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XXIII. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Wednesday, August 17th, 2011 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Private-Prinny. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Wednesday, August 31st, 2011 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.

Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.

Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

Spoiler

NAME OF ENTRY

Level	Class	Base Attack<br>Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1st	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
2nd	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
3rd	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
4th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
5th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
6th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
7th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
8th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
9th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
10th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
11th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
12th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
13th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
14th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
15th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
16th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
17th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
18th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
19th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
20th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities

Code

Spoiler

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

Spoiler

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
Complete Divine's Divine Crusader!
We will have trophies for 1st through 3rd places, as well as a special trophy for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

Allez optimiser!

Contestants
DeAnno
AMFV
kestrel404
OMG PONIES
gbprime
Piggy Knowles
term1nally s1ck
Kefkafreak
Hecuba
Vandicus
Groverfield

The Builds
Vald Lokkur
Norrin Radd
Mighty Casey
Glimwyn Mardwicket
Mother Teresa
Mad Maks
Braham
Lord of Misfortune
Uruk
Nefarious Tate
Sortes

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
Iron Chef V: War Chanter
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
Iron Chef XII: War Mind
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish

dextercorvia · 08-03-2011, 07:11 PM

Entering or Judging, not sure which yet.

Zaq · 08-03-2011, 07:18 PM

Oh god, the low-hanging fruit, it's everywhere. I wonder if I can find the time to make two builds for this . . . one with all the obvious but powerful tricks, and one avoiding them like the cliché. We'll see.

Either way, I'm very interested in this, and I'll probably either judge or enter.

The_Werebear · 08-03-2011, 08:08 PM

I'll go ahead and throw my hat in the ring. Mark me as a contestant.

Tam_OConnor · 08-03-2011, 08:13 PM

I stand ready to judge these mortal builds.

My criteria:

Spoiler

Urpriest · 08-03-2011, 08:16 PM

This class has a lot of controversy to it. Can we get a ruling as to what can and cannot add spells to its list? I've heard it argued that they can only add spells to their lists if they can get additional domains, but I've also heard it said that even that doesn't work because their casting is limited to a single domain. In order for this competition to work we'd probably need a complete rephrasing of the class's spellcasting to remove all ambiguity. Otherwise the rules disputes will swamp the rest of the scores.

The Dark Fiddler · 08-03-2011, 08:24 PM

I don't think I'm going to try for this contest, because I don't actually own CD, but what exactly is expected of a judge? Are they more-or-less required to be good at optimizing, and own like 90% of the books, or would somebody like me who only has the basics of op-fu and has maybe 8 books be acceptable?

Stix · 08-03-2011, 08:27 PM

I'm in i'll get a build together for this should be fun for a first try

TroubleBrewing · 08-03-2011, 08:29 PM

I think I might be able to compete this time. Posting interest in competing!

Private-Prinny · 08-03-2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urpriest

This class has a lot of controversy to it. Can we get a ruling as to what can and cannot add spells to its list? I've heard it argued that they can only add spells to their lists if they can get additional domains, but I've also heard it said that even that doesn't work because their casting is limited to a single domain. In order for this competition to work we'd probably need a complete rephrasing of the class's spellcasting to remove all ambiguity. Otherwise the rules disputes will swamp the rest of the scores.

That's probably a good idea, although the text is fairly explicit...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Complete Divine

Deity and Domain: Every divine crusader has a chosen deity. Sample deities are provided on Table 3–7: Deities, page 32 of the Player’s Handbook, and also in Chapter 5 of this book. A divine crusader’s chosen deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. The character’s alignment and her deity’s alignment must match exactly.
A divine crusader chooses one domain from among those offered by that deity to his or her clerics and gains the granted power of the domain. (If the domain granted power includes the addition of a skill or skills to the cleric class skill list, add it to the class skill list for the divine crusader instead.) The divine crusader also gains the ability to cast spells from that domain (see below).
Spells per Day: A divine crusader casts divine spells. She may only prepare and cast spells from her chosen domain (see above). Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level).
To prepare or cast a spell, a divine crusader must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The difficulty class for a saving throw against a divine crusader’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the divine crusader’s Cha modifier. The divine crusader also gets bonus spells based on her Charisma.
A divine crusader prepares and casts spells as a cleric, except that she cannot spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.

By RAW, a Divine Crusader can only cast spells of the one domain that they chose at first level. There is no wiggle room because of that sentence.

dextercorvia · 08-03-2011, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private-Prinny

That's probably a good idea, although the text is fairly explicit...

By RAW, a Divine Crusader can only cast spells of the one domain that they chose at first level. There is no wiggle room because of that sentence.

Does this mean that if a Divine Crusader has spellcasting from a different source (say Wizard levels) they may no longer use that once taking a level of Divine Crusader?

Private-Prinny · 08-03-2011, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dextercorvia

Does this mean that if a Divine Crusader has spellcasting from a different source (say Wizard levels) they may no longer use that once taking a level of Divine Crusader?

Only if you're also willing to make the argument that a Wizard who took a Divine Crusader level would have his casting stat changed to Charisma.

DeAnno · 08-03-2011, 09:31 PM

I'll definitely be competing, but I'm not sure what to do yet. Decisions, decisions.

TwylyghT · 08-03-2011, 09:40 PM

Was there ever any official word on planar domains and the Divine Crusader?

I know clerics have to count it as both starting domains but I have never seen anything regarding other classes or abilities that grant domains not having access to them normally.

Zaq · 08-03-2011, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private-Prinny

That's probably a good idea, although the text is fairly explicit...

By RAW, a Divine Crusader can only cast spells of the one domain that they chose at first level. There is no wiggle room because of that sentence.

Huh. This just got a lot harder, and a lot more interesting. Way to sweep at least half of that low-hanging fruit I mentioned over to the side.

Devil's advocate time: PHB pg. 32 says "When a cleric prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains." It would be no stretch to say, then, that that sentence makes it impossible for Clerics who snag a third domain (from one of many well-known sources) to prep spells from it. Thoughts? (There's also a "specific vs. general" argument in there somewhere, but I'll let someone else make it.)

(For the record, I'm totally cool with hard-limiting them to that one domain, but I want to play devil's advocate and make sure we explore ALL the rules options before we get too deep into this.)

dextercorvia · 08-03-2011, 10:49 PM

Several of the options that would add spells seem to set up a specific vs. general dilemma. Sand Shaper was the first one that I checked. It says that you can prepare and cast them like spells you have access to.

Like Zaq said, I can play it either way. I would just like to know if we are playing it as no you can't add stuff to their casting options. No not even then. Or, is it more like Unless you find the ability that is worded just right?

Also, are Divine Crusader slots considered domain slots or not?

Lord.Sorasen · 08-03-2011, 11:14 PM

Hi everyone, first time here, I'd like to compete as well maybe! I always wanted to try the one domain spellcaster out a bit.

BillyBobJoe · 08-03-2011, 11:39 PM

I will gladly offer my services as a judge, to see what the other half of this competition is like after I bombed my first competition entrance.

BobVosh · 08-03-2011, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dark Fiddler

I don't think I'm going to try for this contest, because I don't actually own CD, but what exactly is expected of a judge? Are they more-or-less required to be good at optimizing, and own like 90% of the books, or would somebody like me who only has the basics of op-fu and has maybe 8 books be acceptable?

All sorts are welcomed to judging, but I think it would be best to actually own the book of the SI. Unless this is one on the wizard site or something.

I think I will compete, maybe for once I will finish a build and not get discouraged after looking at Akal's or OMG's previous entries :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyBobJoe

I will gladly offer my services as a judge, to see what the other half of this competition is like after I bombed my first competition entrance.

Don't get too disheartened, I liked the thought of going for a ranged dervish simply due to the sheer cheekiness of it. Too bad it doesn't work :'(

ShneekeyTheLost · 08-03-2011, 11:54 PM

Awww.... no Sovereign Speaker Shenanigans...

Count me as a judge for this one.

My criteria:

Spoiler

Originality - Would I have seen this coming? Have I seen this before? If so, expect deductions. I don't count you down in this if several people had the same unexpected trick, I'll simply give everyone who used that unexpected trick the same bonus.

Power - This is going to be a fairly high bar, since you've got a 9th level spell. The ones with a higher score here are going to be the ones who can synergize well and get the most out of their spells. Keep in mind that being one-dimensional and having a trick that is easily foiled will cost you points here. One of the key things I am looking for is 'can this character handle a random immunity without risking getting nerfed badly'. I will also be looking for a character who, despite only having 9 spells per day, can contribute meaningfully in the daily recommended dose of four fights, so staying power is also going to be considered.

Elegance - Dips will be penalized, simply because they are almost completely unnecessary to qualify. The requirements can be done by any level Warrior (yes, the NPC class), so you shouldn't need three classes to get here. Questionable rules judgements will be made in the most unfair manner possible. If your GM is actively looking for ways to ban your build on a mechanical invalidation, would he swing the ban-bat at this? If so, I will almost certainly deduct here. No strongheart vests for Hellfire blast, etc...

Because of the rules clarification, any attempt to gain bonus domains to increase your spell list will result in a flat 0 in this score for failure to read the rules. Of course, you're probably not reading this anyways if that is the case, so it's probably a pointless clarification, but hey... at least when someone complains, I can point here and look all smug like any judge should.

Use of Secret Ingredient - I'm not only looking for 'did you take all 10 levels', but I'm looking at 'how are you using each and every single one of your 9 spells known to their utmost' AND 'did you leverage your domain ability'. After all, what's the point in having spells and a domain ability if you never use 'em? Most of the other class abilities are fairly passive, so aggressive use of spells will certainly help this score as well as Power.

The_Werebear · 08-04-2011, 01:41 AM

Quick question involving racial substitution levels. Do skills added by the substitution levels count as class skills for all level of that class, or only for the specific substitution levels? It has some bearing on where I go with my build.

Groverfield · 08-04-2011, 01:43 AM

I am in as a pin for the win
Edit:As contestant

DeAnno · 08-04-2011, 02:23 AM

I just had a demoralizing couple hours where it seemed like the entire D&D pantheon was actively opposing what I was trying to do. I think I might need a new plan

Aside from that, two general things have been on my mind:

1)All these builds are going to have a tendency to be very vulnerable to Dispel Magic due to the low caster level. I'm not entirely sure how practical devoting enough resources to fix that problem could even be, so a lot of people may have to live with it.

2)Do judges think it makes sense to penalize heavily (in UoSI) builds that PRC out of Divine Crusader into another casting PRC and still get all 10 caster levels? Optimization wise you don't really lose anything (it could be argued that sticking around is pointlessly bad ala Sorcerer 20), and the Divine Crusader is still there in spirit. You get all of the class features it has worth mentioning, you just miss out on the HD.

BobVosh · 08-04-2011, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeAnno

2)Do judges think it makes sense to penalize heavily (in UoSI) builds that PRC out of Divine Crusader into another casting PRC and still get all 10 caster levels? Optimization wise you don't really lose anything (it could be argued that sticking around is pointlessly bad ala Sorcerer 20), and the Divine Crusader is still there in spirit. You get all of the class features it has worth mentioning, you just miss out on the HD.

Traditionally you will get hit hard for not finishing a SI. This is after all about finishing a suboptimal PrC and making it look as good as you can.

So if you think it will make it all up in power, originality, and elegance, go for it.

ShneekeyTheLost · 08-04-2011, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeAnno

I just had a demoralizing couple hours where it seemed like the entire D&D pantheon was actively opposing what I was trying to do. I think I might need a new plan

Aside from that, two general things have been on my mind:

1)All these builds are going to have a tendency to be very vulnerable to Dispel Magic due to the low caster level. I'm not entirely sure how practical devoting enough resources to fix that problem could even be, so a lot of people may have to live with it.

2)Do judges think it makes sense to penalize heavily (in UoSI) builds that PRC out of Divine Crusader into another casting PRC and still get all 10 caster levels? Optimization wise you don't really lose anything (it could be argued that sticking around is pointlessly bad ala Sorcerer 20), and the Divine Crusader is still there in spirit. You get all of the class features it has worth mentioning, you just miss out on the HD.

You'd get hit very hard in UoSI, so make sure your Power boost is worth tanking your UoSI. Also be careful you don't take a hit in Elegance either. Divine Crusader is surprisingly difficult to advance... it only casts one spell per level, and they're divine spells, but you don't have Turn Undead. That cuts out a lot of PrC's...

yugi24862 · 08-04-2011, 04:07 AM

Stuff that increases your Spell list allows you to use spell trigger items with those spells, even if you cant cast those spells using DC right?

ShneekeyTheLost · 08-04-2011, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yugi24862

Stuff that increases your Spell list allows you to use spell trigger items with those spells, even if you cant cast those spells using DC right?

Judges might frown heavily on that with regard to Elegance and UoSI... at least I would.

Of course, if you can get access to it before getting into DC, then at least you won't take the hit to Elegance, since you got it legitimately. But you've got to prove that DC is the focus of the build to avoid hits in UoSI...

kestrel404 · 08-04-2011, 06:52 AM

Interesting. I'll have to think about this one...

Amphetryon · 08-04-2011, 08:53 AM

I'm debating whether to enter or judge this one. I'll try to decide by the end of the day.

WinWin · 08-04-2011, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private-Prinny

By RAW, a Divine Crusader can only cast spells of the one domain that they chose at first level. There is no wiggle room because of that sentence.

Plenty of options modify base casting or grant access to spells as though they are on a class spell list. Specific trumps general, so a specific RAW option could trump general DC spell preperation, depending on the exact text of options utilized.

Even so, I think that a proper explaination of how extra spells are added (if any) to a DC's domain list would probably be advantageous for a submission, IMO.

Unless you're pandering to RAW nonsense like quantum dragon disciples and Ur Priests forsaking the ability to cast Ur priest spells by taking levels in Ur priest, it would be unwise to make any rigid determinations of build legality before anyone has submitted an entry.

just my opinion. Feel free to disregard it.