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Homebrew Design Roll up your sleeves and get working: there's lots of homebrewin' to be done! Post your custom creation for critiques or review those of your peers.

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Old 08-05-2011, 06:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Igneel
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Default Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class


Wyrmfire Disciple


Image is "Soulhunter" by AlectorFencer from Deviantart

-Abilities: Constitution helps with adding more health since the Wyrmfire Disciple can go into melee and with increasing its Breath Weapon saving throw. Charisma is useful for the few Invocation saving throws, Frightful Presence, Aura bonuses and additional use of their healing powers. Strength aids with their melee battle skills using their natural weapons or manufactured weapons.
-Alignment: Within 1 step of their choice of Totem dragons.
-Weapon & Armor Proficiencies: Proficient in the use of Simple and Natural Weapons (such as the Claws, Bite, and Tail attacks they gain through class levels), and no armor and shields. Armor causes Arcane Spell Chance Failure, unless specially crafted, which is why they prefer to rely on their Scales over manufactured armor.
-Hit Dice: d10

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Old 08-05-2011, 06:14 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Igneel
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Wyrmfire Disciple Auras:
Spoiler


Invocation List
1 Originally printed as a Warlock Invocation in Complete Arcane.
2 Originally printed as a Warlock Invocation in Complete Mage.
3 Originally printed as a Warlock Invocation in Dragon Magic.
4 Originally printed as a Warlock Invocation in Cityscape.
5 Originally printed as a Dragonfire Adept Invocation in Dragon Magic.
N New Invocation described below.
R Re-Flavored/Rewritten Invocation originally printed as either a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept Invocation

Spoiler


New/Re-flavored Invocations
Spoiler


====

~Under Construction for Alternate abilities/extra stuff~

Mechanics of Transformation
Spoiler


Ex-Wyrmfire Disciples:
Spoiler


Fluff
Spoiler
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Changelog/Authors Notes:
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Old 08-07-2011, 12:46 AM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Igneel
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Hmm.... Over 24 hours, 66 views, and no comments. Not much better then the original's 809 views, and 2 critiques. I would really like to get more then the two critiques on my older work on this piece.

Maybe suggestions for the different enchantments for Scales and/or Draconic Weapons, or opinions on whether to keep that feature?
Or reviews on any of my invocations and/or auras?
A review on Draconic Expertise, or Draconic Adaptation?
How about the capstone's ability? Is it good enough or should I do something different?

Critiques, remarks, reviews, etc would be very welcome here!
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:04 AM   Top  -  End  -  #5
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Well the concept is pretty cool, but it seems pretty powerful. You have some levels where you get 3 or 4 abilities (and all of the abilities listed are powerful, and many of which aren't simply improvements of previous abilities) and this is alongside invocations and auras. In addition if it doesn't have high stats in something, it has average stats. I would suggest shedding some material and making the stuff you cut out into a prestige class.
On a plus though the class is incredibly flavorful and, fluff-wise, the abilities all mix well together.
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Last edited by eftexar : 08-07-2011 at 01:06 AM.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:35 AM   Top  -  End  -  #6
Igneel
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
Well the concept is pretty cool, but it seems pretty powerful. You have some levels where you get 3 or 4 abilities (and all of the abilities listed are powerful, and many of which aren't simply improvements of previous abilities) and this is alongside invocations and auras. In addition if it doesn't have high stats in something, it has average stats. I would suggest shedding some material and making the stuff you cut out into a prestige class.
On a plus though the class is incredibly flavorful and, fluff-wise, the abilities all mix well together.
Alright, it that was what I was kinda thinking but like any other piece of work after staring at it for a while things don't seem to be as bad as it would look to someone else's eyes. Thanks alot for for that comment. Now I just need to figure out what to lose, and what to keep
I know that at one point I was seriously thinking of doing at least a Bahamut/Tiamat themed PrC, along with others and maybe a Vow of Poverty version of the Dragon Ascendant dragon PrC.
Would you have any suggestions as to what to cut off?
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:43 AM   Top  -  End  -  #7
eftexar
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

That's really difficult (I like all of the features). I suppose if it were me I would remove the draconic expertise, the natural armor feature (you already have the scales), draconic adapation, imbue draconic weapon (maybe...), and touch of vitality. I would go so far to say that if you wanted to keep some of these features you could rewrite them as additional invocations for the wyrmfire disciple to choose from.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:59 AM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Igneel
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
That's really difficult (I like all of the features). I suppose if it were me I would remove the draconic expertise, the natural armor feature (you already have the scales), draconic adapation, imbue draconic weapon (maybe...), and touch of vitality. I would go so far to say that if you wanted to keep some of these features you could rewrite them as additional invocations for the wyrmfire disciple to choose from.
Hmm... After reading your last post, I looked over my class and generally have to agree with you.
  • Draconic expertise was added literally just a couple of days before my post and was potentially on the chop block early on. This could go into a PrC maybe...
  • Natural armor was a feature in both of the classes, but is one of the easiest things to obtain by late game. That and Scales does get you a 14 Armor bonus.
  • Draconic adaptation is another thing that I added. This would definitely go into a PrC aimed at breath weapons.
  • Imbue draconic weapon was up there as well, namely because I couldn't think of all that many good enchantments.
  • Touch of Vitality... I'm not entirely sure about cutting that off since Fast Healing via Vigor aura only gets you so far.

All in all it is a rough decision mostly because I do love the features as well, but it will be needed to be done if I wish to obtain a balanced class of around the tier 3 range.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:30 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
Analysis
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

I kind of like it.

Now, since this is probably based on Natsu the Salamander; can members of this class take Obtain Familiar to gain an Exceed cat?
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:27 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Cipherthe3vil
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Table:2 Bonus Invocations
Score
Least
Lesser
Greater
Dark
01-13
-
-
-
-
14-15
1
-
-
-
16-17
1
-
-
-
18-19
1
1
-
-
20-21
1
1
1
-
22-23
2
1
1
-
24-25
2
1
1
-
26-27
2
2
1
-
28-29
2
2
2
1
30-31
3
2
2
1
32-33
3
2
2
1
34-35
3
3
2
1
36-37
4
3
3
2
38-39
4
3
3
2
40-41
4
3
3
2
42-43
4
4
3
2
44-45
4
4
4
3
Spoiler



Sorry, the bonus invocations table bugged me.


seems like the dragonfire adept (obviously) but powered up and otherwise quite.. better even without at-will breath.
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:28 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
Igneel
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by Analysis View Post
I kind of like it.

Now, since this is probably based on Natsu the Salamander; can members of this class take Obtain Familiar to gain an Exceed cat?
Roflmao =^o^=

Technically since a Dragonfire Adept can, so can this class. Though I think you need to find the stats for a Exceed cat before a DM would allow it Thank you for reminding me of one of my two favorite characters done by that artist. [Let of the Dragon Race from Rave Master/Groove Adventure Rave being my original first]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
Table:2 Bonus Invocations
Score
Least
Lesser
Greater
Dark
01-13
-
-
-
-
14-15
1
-
-
-
16-17
1
-
-
-
18-19
1
1
-
-
20-21
1
1
1
-
22-23
2
1
1
-
24-25
2
1
1
-
26-27
2
2
1
-
28-29
2
2
2
1
30-31
3
2
2
1
32-33
3
2
2
1
34-35
3
3
2
1
36-37
4
3
3
2
38-39
4
3
3
2
40-41
4
3
3
2
42-43
4
4
3
2
44-45
4
4
4
3
Spoiler


Sorry, the bonus invocations table bugged me.

seems like the dragonfire adept (obviously) but powered up and otherwise quite.. better even without at-will breath.
Sorry to of bugged you and thank you for the new table, I will incorporate it ASAP since I did the majority of my typing and coding offline and on notepad files.

Yes, well I have to admit that a few of the invocations I homebrewed were originally meant to be additional invocations for the Dragonfire Adept, but found their way into this class instead. It was my goal to make [as much as alot of people hate me for saying this, but...] a better dragon-flavored class. I often find myself playing a gestalt game with some variety of DfA+Homebrew DS and yet always finding myself in some way lacking even after adding non-dragon classes to balance it out.
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Old 08-14-2011, 02:17 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
Igneel
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Alright, I've decided to cut out Draconic Expertise, Draconic Adaptation, and Natural Armor off the class as to not crowd the levels with way too many features. The text for each of these features will be stored in the spoiler below for future reference.

Spoiler


Now that is out of the way, I am still debating about the Imbue/Enchant Draconic Weapons and Scales abilities mostly because I can't really think of all that many good enchantments to put on that are balanced. Could I get some suggestions?

On another note, I still haven't got any remarks on the homebrewed Aura effects or the homebrewed/revised Invocations. I'm slightly more worried about these since they are mostly the key abilities between the base classes outside of being dragon-flavored with the breath weapon and all.

Thanks for all the help I've received thus far, I hope to keep this going long enough for me to start working on PrC's for this class along with other items.
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Old 08-23-2011, 01:51 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
drack
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

You're trying to get too many big things without any drawbacks. you have a breath weapon many times as strong as many classes, and a +5d8 to attacks (I assume this applies to the already powerful breath too?) along with a nice bundle of invocations and some extras. I think rather that saying 'something's missing' and adding in more other classes you should take a minute to decide what it is that you want out of this. After all the ideal in homebrew isn't s large glomp of random powerful abilities, but rather some semblance of balance while still trying to achieve a given theme. (now I know this probably sounds horribly conceded after you just read the mess that is one of my homebrews, but all the same, big numbers are easily bested by something weaker and well thought out)
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:01 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
Togath
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

A 10d6 breath weapon is pretty close the the dragon shaman, which is a somewhat low powered class
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:05 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
drack
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Oh wait... did I misread that
wow I did, so it ends up as 10d6+5d8 after the aura which is reasonable enough...
Dragon Apotheosis: this I would make sure isn't confused as gaining spells as a level HD/2 cleric or sorcerer,
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:19 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
Ziegander
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by drack View Post
Oh wait... did I misread that
wow I did, so it ends up as 10d6+5d8 after the aura which is reasonable enough...
Where are you getting this +5d8 from?
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Old 08-23-2011, 03:08 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
drack
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Power aura. than you can add a 3x multiplier with chimera breath spell, but admittedly magi can sometimes cast more than one spell/round too, and this has a drawback of not being usable every round.

OK, I'm gonna give this another look. though I'm gonna stand by my comment on need of focus.

Lets see if I can't dig some of my would be comments up from before:
the armor looks like it's a drawback at first, but you could have free armor, or simply shed and wear big heavy magical armor without incurring spell failure... that's not a drawback at all, that's a benefit and a nice one at that. also for Touch of Vitality heal is level 6 and raise dead is after it, also revify is in some ways better than raise dead and raise dead being less picky is probably the one you want to gain first so probably swap that order around a bit. Imbue Draconic Weapon... where is this coming from, and if you're focusing on being more draconic wouldn't it make more sense to instead enchant the claws and bite that have already been given with some mechanics that fluff out well with them? (for instance keen or the element)
I'm also gonna suggest spreading out some of the later abilities in Dragon Apotheosis across some slightly lower levels, or moving some to level 20 as commonly that's when people expect their character to boom. Also maybe lowering aura progression to end at 6, or adding more so that there's more customizability.

It shows that you put allot of work into this, but you can never really reach perfection, so I'll always have something to complain about
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:16 AM   Top  -  End  -  #18
Igneel
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by drack View Post
You're trying to get too many big things without any drawbacks. you have a breath weapon many times as strong as many classes, and a +5d8 to attacks (I assume this applies to the already powerful breath too?) along with a nice bundle of invocations and some extras. I think rather that saying 'something's missing' and adding in more other classes you should take a minute to decide what it is that you want out of this. After all the ideal in homebrew isn't s large glomp of random powerful abilities, but rather some semblance of balance while still trying to achieve a given theme. (now I know this probably sounds horribly conceded after you just read the mess that is one of my homebrews, but all the same, big numbers are easily bested by something weaker and well thought out)
Ah... I was waiting for your critique after the time I took for yours j/k. From this post I'm going to assume that you are talking about the Power Aura, which specifically states it only grants the bonus damage on melee attacks. While I do agree with your point about this class being quite a few goodies glomped together, namely these tasty auras+invocations. But the thing is that without taking the Double Draconic Aura feat from Dragon Magic [need more then 1 aura, and 12th level to get] your limited to one 1 aura at a time, your invocations and breath are basically limited to 1 per round unless you take feats to Quicken them, not to mention that they deal less damage then spellcasters. Maybe I have a horrible sense of balance and am not quite seeing it? Should I tone it down some more then what I've already got [ie reduce number of invocations, power of auras]?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Togath View Post
A 10d6 breath weapon is pretty close the the dragon shaman, which is a somewhat low powered class
This is correct. A normal Dragon Shaman would be getting a max of 10d6 with 1d4 recharge, while the Dragonfire adept gets a max of 9d6 every round with normal breaths. Course the Dragonfire adept also gets a possible 9d6x5 breath that deals some damage to themselves thats usable every odd round or so. I wanted to try and get a mixture of the two, thus a max of 10d6 along with a possible x3 invocation. Compared to the Dragonfire adept he is still breathing 15d6 less damage [not including ways of increasing damage] and has to cast an invocation to do so compared to a full-round. Not to mention that spellcasters can do more...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drack View Post
Oh wait... did I misread that
wow I did, so it ends up as 10d6+5d8 after the aura which is reasonable enough...
Dragon Apotheosis: this I would make sure isn't confused as gaining spells as a level HD/2 cleric or sorcerer,
I didn't think about the fact most dragons have the ability to cast cleric/sorcerer spells truth be told. I'll have to come up with a clause to fix that. Especially to discourage Loredrake amoung other things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drack View Post
Power aura. than you can add a 3x multiplier with chimera breath spell, but admittedly magi can sometimes cast more than one spell/round too, and this has a drawback of not being usable every round.

OK, I'm gonna give this another look. though I'm gonna stand by my comment on need of focus.

Lets see if I can't dig some of my would be comments up from before:
the armor looks like it's a drawback at first, but you could have free armor, or simply shed and wear big heavy magical armor without incurring spell failure... that's not a drawback at all, that's a benefit and a nice one at that. also for Touch of Vitality heal is level 6 and raise dead is after it, also revify is in some ways better than raise dead and raise dead being less picky is probably the one you want to gain first so probably swap that order around a bit. Imbue Draconic Weapon... where is this coming from, and if you're focusing on being more draconic wouldn't it make more sense to instead enchant the claws and bite that have already been given with some mechanics that fluff out well with them? (for instance keen or the element)
I'm also gonna suggest spreading out some of the later abilities in Dragon Apotheosis across some slightly lower levels, or moving some to level 20 as commonly that's when people expect their character to boom. Also maybe lowering aura progression to end at 6, or adding more so that there's more customizability.

It shows that you put allot of work into this, but you can never really reach perfection, so I'll always have something to complain about
*The armor is nothing more then the Dragonscale Husk alternate class feature found in Dragon Magic pg12 [lose Heavy Armor Proficiency in exchange for an armor very similar to this one], plus you have no armor proficiency whatsoever. So yes you can stick to mostly light armors like the Dragonfire Adept could, but you would take penalties for anything heavier that without magic gives similar armor bonus. I tried to make it somewhat like a Duskblades ability to cast in armor, where there is indeed a Arcane spell failure chance that they learn to overcome. Are you saying that I need to make it stretch longer then what I have already? [Duskblade overcomes Medium armor by lvl 4, and Heavy shields by lvl 7. My class overcomes a equivalent to a light armor by lvl 6]
*I do believe that I should fix that, for it seems that you misinterpreted it. You gain the core ability of Touch of Vitality at lvl 6, being able to cure 1d6HP per charge [and gaining Cha mod+1/2 WD class levels rounded down/day]. Starting at lvl 11 you gain the other abilities like revivfy or raise dead, assuming you have enough charges to use them. While yes Revivify has a lower charge payment, it also can only be used the round AFTER a person dies. Unless your standing next to them or have a Dimension Door-like ability I don't think that it would be as useful as a Raise Dead or better yet a better spell cast by your healer. If anyone else has a problem with the order I'll change it, or maybe even find different spells to put in those spots.
*Imbue Draconic Weapon originally was supposed to be in someways like a Soulknife's ability to enchant their soulknife. Being a Simple weapon+Natural Weapon only class (baring dips) they only have spells cast by Druid-like classes, and a magical item from Savage Species to enchant their natural weapons, not including items that make them count as magical/silver/whatever. Keen somehow did miss my list, and I already got the elements. Anything else you can suggest?
*Hmm... Here and I thought Draconic Scales, Draconic Weapons, Wings, a equivalent to growing up one size [natural weapon use only], breath weapons, and Frightful presense throughout the 19-lvls would be enough to spread it out. What exactly are they gaining from Dragon type that I'm missing since I thought I covered the majority of it in the 'Mechanics of Transformation' spoiler located in the 2nd post? Granted you are now considered Dragon type, you gain some immunities, a longer life span, inherent bonuses to a few stats, SR and additional DR is there something I'm missing?
*6 in my opinion isn't enough, and more then 9 would just add more abuse someone could do. I was quite content with the 9 I already have, but if you have ideas I might add more if others think I should. My original version shamelessly copied another's work in that area, and I loath the idea of doing so again just for ideas.

I never have, nor will I ever expect me to make something 'perfect' for that is a sign that it was made by a human imho. To compare, even the creators of the game made truckloads of mistakes with their creations, and considering that I'm very doubtful a mass as large as the DnD playing community I don't have to worry as much. :D

But as I have said [and will most likely say again and again] earlier in this thread I am thankful for any and all critiques and comments. That includes any that the poster may think are harsh, when in reality they can be only more insightful in helping me with my work. Thanks for pointing out somethings, along with making me question others. I now have more to think about which is all that matters when your making something and hopefully eventually building off of it.
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Old 08-24-2011, 12:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

OK, before I reply I'm going to openly state that I have recently become more of a lazy reader (a habit which I hope to fix soon), and so Some of this may be my laziness That said:
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:09 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

@drack:
*Lazy Reader: Well obviously your not TOO lazy to take the time to read at least through the majority of my class and its features such as the Auras, and for that alone I’m thankful. Its hard enough to get people to look at your work seriously when you’re a well known homebrewer, then it is even harder for someone that has just started.

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Old 08-24-2011, 01:54 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Yes well, I first posted mine as a larger yet wall of text, and both submissions of my first homebrew I got tons of comments on adding tables (~5 total), bolding ect, and even a spin off philosophical thing on plato but nothing on the class besides one person saying it sounded cool So I try to comment on big ones without much critique when I can, though in truth I didn't read it, I just skimmed it and backtracked a few bits that sounded off so I still claim the title of 'lazy'

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Old 08-25-2011, 03:46 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by drack View Post
Yes well, I first posted mine as a larger yet wall of text, and both submissions of my first homebrew I got tons of comments on adding tables (~5 total), bolding ect, and even a spin off philosophical thing on plato but nothing on the class besides one person saying it sounded cool So I try to comment on big ones without much critique when I can, though in truth I didn't read it, I just skimmed it and backtracked a few bits that sounded off so I still claim the title of 'lazy'
Fair enough

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Old 08-25-2011, 04:18 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Yay, I get the lay title... why did I want that again?

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Old 08-29-2011, 02:22 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Ok, I'd make some changes with a target of Teir 3 - Teir 2 in mind.

First, give it a full BAB progression. It's a class where your tapping both the physical and mystical powers of dragons to wield against your enemy's. Hell, a simple re-fluff and your tapping the powers of Bahamet/Tiamet/what ever dragon gods are in your settings pantheon to aid you. You should be able to hit them in melee. That was actually something that drove me crazy about Dragon Shamen.

Next, I'd make it so that the tail is a tripping/disarming weapon to allow build versatility. I'd also make it clear that yes, you can power attack with these natural weapons. And I'd rule that you can attack once with each natural weapon as a standard action.

Third, the ability to add weapon property's too your natural weapons. I'd expand it, but if you take more then the progression you've got now, you start spending XP for the property's the way a Kensai dose, up to a reasonable point. A reasonable point being allowing up too +5 ability's by 20th lvl if you wanna sink the XP, and a progression on earlier levels to keep in in line with that goal. Why? So you don't fall into the TWF/tried-to-do-swordplay-and-archery trap of having sub-par for level weapon(s). And make it so that you can just pick a property and add it if you have the available bonus to put into it.

Fourth, I'd up the damage progression on those natural weapons a bit. I'd do another Die increase a few levels later, and another a few levels after that. You need a respectable base damage if your going to do Melee combat with out doing a Trip/Dungeoncrasher/Maneuver Dependent build.

I'd also make a class feature for later levels for your armor ability that let's it affect Touch AC with out needing to take the Ghost touch property. This is becuase I believe Melee can have Nice things.

Looking at the skills list. I'd add Tumble as a class skill, it's good for Melee. Really, really, really good.

Now, the thing at the end where you can take Dragon only PRC's, move that to like 6th or 7th level so that it means something in a none epic game. This way the character can take this plus what ever other stuff there fancying and still fit in 10 lvls of that dragon only PRC they wanted.

Finally, allow the player the ability to do cycling out of Invocations known so that if they pick one that doesn't help them like they though it would, they can get rid of it and get something they'll find more useful. I don't think this should be daily, but maybe like one invocation a level.
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:21 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

I don't know about him adding all of that stuff metahuman. This class already grants alot of stuff and is quite powerful. Making some of those changes might bump it up to be too powerful.
It already grants invocations, natural weapons, auras, an almost at will firebreath, possibly enchantments, flight, and advancement into PrCs that are more powerful than most other core classes have access to. This easily makes tier 3 utility-wise and I think that upping everything as you said will make the class too powerful.
A mid BAB balances the class nicely, as not many 'gish' or non-melee classes have a full bab.
And granting additional attacks with each natural weapon is insane. Can you imagine what would be 2 claw attacks, a bite, a tail, 2 wing attacks, plus any from your race. And all of this with your suggested increase in die of damage. If you want increase natural attack damage more someone can do it through a PrC, feats, or another class. A class shouldn't be able to do everything perfectly.
And swapping of invocations each level... I hope you mean relearning like you can in some spellcasting classes.
Good point on the dragon prc access though.
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:44 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Yes, I do mean relearning. I no longer have Invocation X, but I get Invocation Y, which is the same level or lower then X. Make it once every other level if every level is too much.

And the idea behind attack once with every natural weapon wasn't too make extra attacks, it was too allow a reasonable number of attacks while letting you move, something that normally requires Pounce or Travel Devotion. The former might fit flavor depending on who you ask, but a lot of DM's won't let there players have it even if it's legitimate. The Latter requires Turn Undead or Bonus feats, which would get crazy in a hurry on a class like this. So a class feature that says for a standard action you can take one swipe at him with your tail, try to bite him, and scratch at him once with each hand is reasonable. I'm also factoring in that if you use more melee, your making at least somewhat less use of your Invocations and Breath Weapons.

As for the PRC's, keep in mind that going into them means you stop cold on progressing just about everything in the base class, so it's a really big trade.

And on the matter of the BAB, I'm assuming the average player going melee with this class would be power attacking, so allowing him the ability to do it and manage to make it work with the multy weapon fighting penalty's isn't a bad idea. I'm trying to make Melee builds something that would be as good or close to as good as an Invocation/breath weapon specialist. Feat, skill, and gear choices would then determine which one the individual character favored.
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #27
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by drack View Post
"I doubt that a +14 Armor would make them necessarily a pain to hit"
Honestly a +14 from here, +14 from there and soon you have +100 or so without much effort. That aside I wasn't really thinking of this class I had another in mind and was just tossing out the thought
Ah I see. Of course [unless I'm greatly misunderstanding] I did specify that it is a Armor Bonus so theoretically that still leaves bonuses like Deflection, Force, Sacred/Profane, Luck, etc. So yes it is possible to get a quite large AC, you're still getting a max of +19 [if I include the enchanting function]

"Alright, so I'll have to work that out so that each totem only gets their alignment equivalent [Holy for good, unholy for evil, etc], totem energies [if they picked acid, fire, and cold they only get corrosive, flaming and frost], and the totem's elemental plane equivalent [Aquan for water subtype, ignan for fire, etc], along with some 'open to anyone' like Keen." Sounds good to me
Still working on tables for this, but I have a rough idea on how I will have it set up.

"Alright then, how about I subtract the invocation equivalent (since the aura grants it to allies as well, but invocation only effects the character) and give him a scaling Blindsense. Maybe similar to the Dragonborn's Mind aspect [3rd level gains Darkvision 30ft+low-light vision, 6th lvl increases to 60ft, 9th level increases to 90ft, 12th level to 120ft, and 15th Blindsense to 30ft] thusly making it so that by his transformation he has blindsense without either a aura or invocation active?" whoops, backtrack a bit, I'm talking about spreading Dragon Apotheosis, blindsight just came up as something I didn't see there (guess I picked a bad partial quote there) No need to spread a single invocation to scale, after all I'm avoiding advising on them since I really don't know all that much on invocations
Ah... Well I don't know how to really spread it out even more then I already have it so far. Course I guess I could work on that as well as a side project till more ideas come up.

"Alright, then I'll work on some possible additional auras [maximum of 13-ish?]." Yeah, I mean It may be fine as is, but some customization never hurts, though at the same time you needn't bend over backwards and hurt yourself after all it's just an idea (so good idea adding in a max before diving into it)
Got some new ideas for auras, along with an idea of rather then giving them 'all of them', let the players choose which ones they want. Kinda of like a Wizard choosing what spells he wants to have in his spellbook in someways.

"mostly because I have a more relaxed-type personality and start feeling pressured after a certain point." Ah, personally pressure helps me focus

I guess it doesn't help that I was born in a year of Earth [much more relaxed personality then other elements]. Not that I believe in all that mumbo jumbo 100% mind you.

"Aura Change:" So how does a Cha mod add in? Just add it to any numeric effects?
Yes, like the Vigor gets the bonus+Cha mod to Fast Healing [ex: Great Wyrm should have around 4+1/2 Wyrmfire Disciple lvls+Cha Mod= X Fast Healing]

"Flee through Flames Invocation" I'm gonna advise against it as this class already has other things helping your breath weapon. (yes I'm thinking chimera breath which could than get 24d8) All the same you're call
I got a proposal later in this post for this invocation. Also, since Chimera breath is another invocation it takes a Standard action for both to be cast. I probably should put a clause that they don't stack, even with Quicken SLA but still.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
Ok, I'd make some changes with a target of Teir 3 - Teir 2 in mind.

First, give it a full BAB progression. It's a class where your tapping both the physical and mystical powers of dragons to wield against your enemy's. Hell, a simple re-fluff and your tapping the powers of Bahamet/Tiamet/what ever dragon gods are in your settings pantheon to aid you. You should be able to hit them in melee. That was actually something that drove me crazy about Dragon Shamen.
I figured that giving it full BAB would be as drack pointed out earlier in this thread "trying to gain to many bonuses with little consequence" if I remember right. While yes they are tapping energy of dragons and such, it is quite possible with the current set-up with auras that a Wyrmfire Disciple along with his comrades can get more then a +4 AB [+4 for Great Wyrm aura lvl+Cha mod] for melee attacks just through the Power Aura. I am already considering changing the +Cha mod part so that someone isn't gaining +24 [max they can add at 20th level of Wyrmfire Disciple] to theirs along with their allies attack bonus.

Next, I'd make it so that the tail is a tripping/disarming weapon to allow build versatility. I'd also make it clear that yes, you can power attack with these natural weapons. And I'd rule that you can attack once with each natural weapon as a standard action.
Interesting ideas. I will more then likely be adding the tripping/disarming + power attack rules to that section.

Third, the ability to add weapon property's too your natural weapons. I'd expand it, but if you take more then the progression you've got now, you start spending XP for the property's the way a Kensai dose, up to a reasonable point. A reasonable point being allowing up too +5 ability's by 20th lvl if you wanna sink the XP, and a progression on earlier levels to keep in in line with that goal. Why? So you don't fall into the TWF/tried-to-do-swordplay-and-archery trap of having sub-par for level weapon(s). And make it so that you can just pick a property and add it if you have the available bonus to put into it.
While yes I do have to agree with you on this, I am currently working on that part even now. Currently I am thinking about setting it up so specific totems get weapon properties that others don't to make them more individualized. I kinda like doing a progression Kensai-like. I'll have to look into trying to insert it once I get a better grasp on the enchantments for the totems.

Fourth, I'd up the damage progression on those natural weapons a bit. I'd do another Die increase a few levels later, and another a few levels after that. You need a respectable base damage if your going to do Melee combat with out doing a Trip/Dungeoncrasher/Maneuver Dependent build.
I was actually thinking about upping it at least once more so that a player that started large could be doing at least Gargantuan damage by lvl 20.

I'd also make a class feature for later levels for your armor ability that let's it affect Touch AC with out needing to take the Ghost touch property. This is becuase I believe Melee can have Nice things.
Maybe half your Con mod is added to your Touch AC to replicate the Scintillating Scales spell that dragons can use from Draconomicon?

Looking at the skills list. I'd add Tumble as a class skill, it's good for Melee. Really, really, really good.
Tumble would make some sense. I'll add it.

Now, the thing at the end where you can take Dragon only PRC's, move that to like 6th or 7th level so that it means something in a none epic game. This way the character can take this plus what ever other stuff there fancying and still fit in 10 lvls of that dragon only PRC they wanted.
I do believe that the majority of the PrC's are going to have to be Epic levels just by their prerequisites alone. Not including the easier prerequisites, and the fact you need to be of Dragon-type, the main reason for not being able to take the PrC's is the BaB currently:
  • Bloodscaled Fury: Base Attack Bonus +22
  • Disciple of Ashardalon: Base Attack Bonus +18
  • Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis: Knowledge (any 2) 20 ranks
  • Dragon Ascendant: Base Attack Bonus +30, Fast Healing feat [epic feat], & Great Fortitude feat [epic feat]
  • Elemental Master: Base Attack Bonus +20
  • Hidecarved Dragon: Natural Armor Bonus +20
  • Sacred Warder of Bahamut: Base Attack Bonus +15
  • Unholy Ravager of Tiamat: Base Attack Bonus +15


Finally, allow the player the ability to do cycling out of Invocations known so that if they pick one that doesn't help them like they though it would, they can get rid of it and get something they'll find more useful. I don't think this should be daily, but maybe like one invocation a level.
I largely used the Warlock/Dragonfire Adept invocation description, which includes being able to switch out invocations at certain points during your leveling up process. Granted I kind of like what your suggesting, that alone would make it better then most if not all Invocation-using classes. Homebrewed or not.
Thank you both for your suggestions/advice. Now onto some Proposed edits until I get through the latest bits of changes it might go through with the above suggestions influence.
====
How about I include the extra auras, but instead of gaining all 14 by lvl 20, they instead only get to choose 9-10 maximum so that the player has to choose between which auras he wants to have? So a more combat-oriented character could go with at least Power, Energy Shield, Vigor, and Toughness, then choose whatever else they would like. Meanwhile a 'swiss-army' style they could go with what roles they are trying to fill. Since they won't be able to pick every single invocation, this makes some sense as a way to keep them gaining too much/many power/s.

Proposal Edits:
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--Invocation--
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--Touch of Vitality--
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Old 09-25-2011, 01:09 AM   Top  -  End  -  #28
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

More Proposal Edits: [in addition to last post]

--Natural Weapons--
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--Draconic Scales--
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--Very Basic/Rough Draft Draconic Weapon Enchantments--
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Old 09-29-2011, 06:04 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
Able Sindor
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confused Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igneel View Post
Starting at 1st level each aura grants a base of +1, and grants the following effects for the different auras you can choose from
Maybe I missed something but what dose that "Base of +1" go to?

Nice class By the way.
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:31 AM   Top  -  End  -  #30
Igneel
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Default Re: Wyrmfire Disciple v2.0 [WIP/Peach] 3.5 Base Class

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Maybe I missed something but what dose that "Base of +1" go to?

Nice class By the way.
That is a question that I have been asked several times already, mainly because of laziness causing me not to update/edit the post as of yet. The "Base +1/2/3/4" applies to the basic numeral function of the auras.
Ex: A Power aura with a +1 [no Cha mod to modify this] grants a +1 to your Melee Attack Bonus, but doesn't change the +1d6 elemental energy damage.
Then when you get a +2 that changes it to a +2 to your Melee Attack bonus, and yet again no change to the energy damage.

Sorry for the confusion, I REALLY need to get off my lazy rump and change that along with several other things.

Also, thanks. Glad that you like it!
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