Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[Salanmander]

About the art style:

Spoiler

Did anyone else get a /serious/ Portal vibe from this episode? From the pure white to the front rooms/industrial bowels dichotomy to the slightly off-color robots, it seemed to be fairly inspired by Portal to me. I'm wondering if there's any way if we can know whether that was in the head of the designers.

[Starscream]

Originally Posted by Salanmander

About the art style:

Spoiler

Did anyone else get a /serious/ Portal vibe from this episode? From the pure white to the front rooms/industrial bowels dichotomy to the slightly off-color robots, it seemed to be fairly inspired by Portal to me. I'm wondering if there's any way if we can know whether that was in the head of the designers.

I definitely got that impression when Amy went into the industrial looking area. Wouldn't be surprised if it was an intentional shout out.

[factotum]

As is often the case, I thought of another couple of possible plot holes while thinking about this episode as I lay abed this morning:

Spoiler

How did the magnifying glass work? Surely the time streams on both sides would have to be synchronised for it to show it, in which case, was Amy's side reverted to normal speed or was the Rory/Doctor side sped up?

In addition, the whole facility was designed to allow people who contracted a disease which would kill them inside 24 hours to live a full, happy life. How on earth would they diagnose the illness quickly enough to get the people inside? The symptoms of it obviously can't be particularly debilitating or the people inside the facility wouldn't get much of a quality of life anyway...

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by factotum

As is often the case, I thought of another couple of possible plot holes while thinking about this episode as I lay abed this morning:

Spoiler

How did the magnifying glass work? Surely the time streams on both sides would have to be synchronised for it to show it, in which case, was Amy's side reverted to normal speed or was the Rory/Doctor side sped up?

In addition, the whole facility was designed to allow people who contracted a disease which would kill them inside 24 hours to live a full, happy life. How on earth would they diagnose the illness quickly enough to get the people inside? The symptoms of it obviously can't be particularly debilitating or the people inside the facility wouldn't get much of a quality of life anyway...

Spoiler

Don't know about the first, but for the second the hand-bots were shown to be able to detect bacteria. That is why they were after Amy after all, she was contaminated with unknown bacteria.

[Mukora]

Originally Posted by Salanmander

About the art style:

Spoiler

Did anyone else get a /serious/ Portal vibe from this episode? From the pure white to the front rooms/industrial bowels dichotomy to the slightly off-color robots, it seemed to be fairly inspired by Portal to me. I'm wondering if there's any way if we can know whether that was in the head of the designers.

Spoiler

When they opened up their faceplates OF DEATH, they also kind of look like turrets.

[Kobold-Bard]

Spoiler

1. Disneyland Klom

2. That was cool. I'm not sure if it's me liking the Ponds more or liking Matt Smith less, but I definitely prefer them to the Doctor; which never happened with any of the old companions.

3. Slightly disappointed that Rory's Last Centurion days weren't even mentioned in passing. Yes she waited 36 years for him, but he waited 2000 for her. It would have been nice for them to at least acknowledge it; maybe during the two Amys magnifying glass scene.

[Jibar]

Spoiler

Rory may have waited 2000 years, but he did that out of choice. Amy was left there for 36 years thinking they had abandoned her. And it's not the first time that's happened, remember. The Doctor promised to come back when she was a kid but at least she was safe then. This time she was left in a hostile environment, fighting for her life and for a lot longer.

[Jahkaivah]

Originally Posted by Mukora

Spoiler

When they opened up their faceplates OF DEATH, they also kind of look like turrets.

Spoiler

Do not be alarmed. This is a kindness.

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Thufir

Spoiler

That... is just a staggering lack of compassion and empathy. She is real. She's Amy. She's not what might have been, she's what is/was, and what shortly never will have been. She is no longer the same person she was when she had only been in the facility a week, and hard as those experiences were, they are part of who she is, which will cease to exist shortly.

c.f. (Curly-spoilers)

Spoiler

Ten's regeneration. Are you in the camp that says Ten was whining unnecessarily? After all, it's not like he was really dying, he was just going to regenerate into a newer, younger version of himself, maybe a bit different in a few personality aspects but still the same person. Clearly he was utterly wrong to mourn the loss of his own personality and perspective.

Now, this? This is not the same as that. It's worse. Because there will not be a continuity of experience. Old Amy will not wake up as Young Amy. Those experiences will be lost, never having happened. She gets a few moments to reminisce before she is knocked out and then she ceases to have ever existed. How many people would voluntarily allow their entire existence to be erased?

The only reason I haven't been the first poster to not spoil stuff is because our dear Miss KitGirl hasn't confirmed watching it.

Spoiler

No, no it is not a lack on my behalf. I'm thinking about this from Amy's perspective now. I'm trapped in an area which is completely empty and isolated except for a handless robot, I sleep on a rough floor, I can't eat proper food (not that I need to), I can't go anywhere or enjoy the illusionary paradise without constantly being stalked by robots, I had to spend years learning how to fight the robots as well and build the sonic probe. And I cry every night for the husband who didn't come back for me. Then all of a sudden he comes back. He has a plan which will make sure that all of the torment I have suffered will be removed from existence and I'll be able to be with him. I'll be able to forget the torment I suffered and be the same age as him again. Plus I will be helping myself live 36 better years which were not lived in anger and fear. And even if I stop existing, I will know that the younger me will survive. A younger me who will not have suffered as I have done. I would have to be really selfish and have a complete lack of compassion and empathy to not go with this plan.

Now let's see it from the Doctor's prespective. Obviously having two Amy's in the TARDIS is a no-no. As Amy and Rory's protector I have to make sure they are happy. They will be happy if they can grow old together like a proper couple. Then there's 59 year old Amy herself. She has a much different viewpoint than the young Amy. She hates, despises and resents me. That's not safe for me, not safe at all. She could betray me to any new enemy with a decent diplomacy modifier. Because it is a character trait of mine to eliminate all threats to me. Plus there is also her attitude to the plan. She is esentially saying she wants to let herself suffer for 36 years just so that she can survive. That's selfish. And I don't like selfish companions. I kicked out the last one (Adam Mitchell). Selfish companions are a hazzard. So I lie to her to convince her to go with the plan. This, whilst bad on it's own, has been done for the greater good so that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Plus, 36 years less emotional baggage.

It's also not like the Doctor regenerating. The Doctor means something. He saves people and can go anywhere he wants. His life is important. If he dies his personallity will be gone forever. Amy had been living in a vacuum and was warped and bitter because of it. If she goes bye bye, Amy survives but at a handy save-point. Then her life can continue. For the better.

There, do you see now. 59 year old Amy was stupid and selfish and the Doctor, whilst morally questionable, was doing the right thing.

In other news, I'm thinking I have to repost my day of the moon review. No one saw it last time.

[Dienekes]

Taking from order:

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

The only reason I haven't been the first poster to not spoil stuff is because our dear Miss KitGirl hasn't confirmed watching it.

Spoiler

No, no it is not a lack on my behalf. I'm thinking about this from Amy's perspective now. I'm trapped in an area which is completely empty and isolated except for a handless robot, I sleep on a rough floor, I can't eat proper food (not that I need to), I can't go anywhere or enjoy the illusionary paradise without constantly being stalked by robots, I had to spend years learning how to fight the robots as well and build the sonic probe. And I cry every night for the husband who didn't come back for me. Then all of a sudden he comes back. He has a plan which will make sure that all of the torment I have suffered will be removed from existence and I'll be able to be with him. I'll be able to forget the torment I suffered and be the same age as him again. Plus I will be helping myself live 36 better years which were not lived in anger and fear. And even if I stop existing, I will know that the younger me will survive. A younger me who will not have suffered as I have done. I would have to be really selfish and have a complete lack of compassion and empathy to not go with this plan.

But you won't live with your husband. You'll be dead. You will cease to exist and everything that made you you for most of your life will have been destroyed so some older copy of you can live in bliss. If not wanting that means I'm completely selfish then sure, I'm selfish. I'd rather live in a robot hell than be dead just so someone who looks and acts like I did 34 years ago doesn't have to put up with the crap I did.

Now let's see it from the Doctor's prespective. Obviously having two Amy's in the TARDIS is a no-no. As Amy and Rory's protector I have to make sure they are happy. They will be happy if they can grow old together like a proper couple. Then there's 59 year old Amy herself. She has a much different viewpoint than the young Amy. She hates, despises and resents me. That's not safe for me, not safe at all. She could betray me to any new enemy with a decent diplomacy modifier. Because it is a character trait of mine to eliminate all threats to me. Plus there is also her attitude to the plan. She is esentially saying she wants to let herself suffer for 36 years just so that she can survive. That's selfish. And I don't like selfish companions. I kicked out the last one (Adam Mitchell). Selfish companions are a hazzard. So I lie to her to convince her to go with the plan. This, whilst bad on it's own, has been done for the greater good so that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Plus, 36 years less emotional baggage.

No more dangerous than having the Master on board and he was cool with that plan. And really, you got the angry vibe from newAmy that she would betray the Doctor? That would almost assuredly mean betraying Rory. She wouldn't do that. The Doctor gives chances to those he doesn't trust, it's what he does.

It's also not like the Doctor regenerating. The Doctor means something. He saves people and can go anywhere he wants. His life is important. If he dies his personallity will be gone forever. Amy had been living in a vacuum and was warped and bitter because of it. If she goes bye bye, Amy survives but at a handy save-point. Then her life can continue. For the better.

Wait so because the Doctor is more specials Amy can't regret dying, even though for the Doctor he will keep on going with all his memories intact and Amy will essentially be dead. What kind of reasoning is this? Her personality will be far more destroyed than the Doctor's was who still has all his memories and experiences.

[Eldan]

I'm really still wondering...

Spoiler

Future Amy wanted to go with them, then leave the Tardis and go traveling. Why couldn't the doctor take her for a few minutes, and drop her off somewhere? It's been shown that the Tardis can take several Amy Ponds at a time before, in that short special. A couple of minutes, drop her off at some space port, or vacation planet, or adventuring location...

Would that have been so difficult?

And yes, I see it as the Doctor failing to save her. Or save Amy before she became that person in the first place.

[Cen]

Originally Posted by Eldan

I'm really still wondering...

Spoiler

Future Amy wanted to go with them, then leave the Tardis and go traveling. Why couldn't the doctor take her for a few minutes, and drop her off somewhere? It's been shown that the Tardis can take several Amy Ponds at a time before, in that short special. A couple of minutes, drop her off at some space port, or vacation planet, or adventuring location...

Would that have been so difficult?

And yes, I see it as the Doctor failing to save her. Or save Amy before she became that person in the first place.

Dammit I was going to ask exactly the same question...

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Eldan

I'm really still wondering...

Spoiler

Future Amy wanted to go with them, then leave the Tardis and go traveling. Why couldn't the doctor take her for a few minutes, and drop her off somewhere? It's been shown that the Tardis can take several Amy Ponds at a time before, in that short special. A couple of minutes, drop her off at some space port, or vacation planet, or adventuring location...

Would that have been so difficult?

And yes, I see it as the Doctor failing to save her. Or save Amy before she became that person in the first place.

Spoiler

Good idea but flawed. If the TARDIS left the planet for a couple of mins then Amy would be at the handbots mercy. Furthermore, there's no telling at what point the Doctor would make it into Amy's timestream. He could miss completely or get a 100 year old Amy.

Now to respond to you Dienkes

Spoiler

It is selfish to live in robot hell rather than die because you are doing a disservice to a younger you. You are betraying yourself. Would you want to torture yourself? I would not. I would save myself from the torment. It would give closure and mean I actually made something useful out of my time other than a sonic device and bad swordsmanship (that's not how real katana wielders use them, but that's artistic licence.

The Doctor who was willing to keep the Master in his TARDIS was Ten, not Eleven. Besides the master is an endangered species. Amy is not. Plus, 59 years Amy may betray the Doctor if she can get Rory in on it too, or if it benefits Rory. 59Amy might not betray the Doctor to existing enemies like the Daleks or team Korvarian, but a new enemy coul hannibal lecture her into submission.

I mean by the Doctor being special in that he has responsibilities. Amy had no responsibilities in her world. If Amy had been a temp for 36 years I'd understand that. If she was a temp who fought Handbots on the side Buffy style, she might not want that erased. If she'd lived like a god for those years, I could understand that more so. Remember, not even Rory remembers his millienia.Besides if the Doctor dies, his personallity would be destroyed with no hope of recovery. Amy's would survive in some form. Remember, even if I implanted myself with your memories, that does not mean I am you.

[Cen]

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

Spoiler

Good idea but flawed. If the TARDIS left the planet for a couple of mins then Amy would be at the handbots mercy. Furthermore, there's no telling at what point the Doctor would make it into Amy's timestream. He could miss completely or get a 100 year old Amy.

I'm afraid you don't understand - there were several Ponds on TARDIS in short special this year - for not very long, yes, but nothing bad happened at all. So if nothing happend with more than 1 Pond on TARDIS once then why would it be wrong now? - plan is simpe - both Ponds jump on TARDIS, they do a quick travel somewhere/anywhere, OldPond says bye and goes travelling, rest of the team goes somewhere else and everyone is happy.

why didn't it happen? because existing OldPond is living proof of doctor failing. And his ego just wouldn't stand it.

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Cen

I'm afraid you don't understand - there were several Ponds on TARDIS in short special this year - for not very long, yes, but nothing bad happened at all. So if nothing happend with more than 1 Pond on TARDIS once then why would it be wrong now? - plan is simpe - both Ponds jump on TARDIS, they do a quick travel somewhere/anywhere, OldPond says bye and goes travelling, rest of the team goes somewhere else and everyone is happy.

why didn't it happen? because existing OldPond is living proof of doctor failing. And his ego just wouldn't stand it.

Spoiler

In the short special the universe was very close to being destroyed and they were in patch of time turbulence. Further, the two Amy's were seperated by seconds. 36 years would have been more difficult. The TARDIS had a powercut when they appeared. Two Amy's could not go on the TARDIS. Plus OldPond tells Rory not to let her in on the grounds that, if she gets in she won't want to leave. Rory and Doctor would find it difficult to get a swordswoman out of the TARDIS.

[Eldan]

Then, actually, why not the alternative idea?

Take Young Amy away, leave her in a more or less safe location (say, modern day Earth). Meanwhile, let Rory and Old Amy flee the robots for a few more minutes. They were shown to be able to handle half a dozen of those things when fighting, running should be easier.

Then come back, take on Rory and Old Amy, drop Old Amy in another location, go get Young Amy.

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Eldan

Then, actually, why not the alternative idea?

Take Young Amy away, leave her in a more or less safe location (say, modern day Earth). Meanwhile, let Rory and Old Amy flee the robots for a few more minutes. They were shown to be able to handle half a dozen of those things when fighting, running should be easier.

Then come back, take on Rory and Old Amy, drop Old Amy in another location, go get Young Amy.

Coming back was not an option. He might miss the mark again. Plus, what if by some coincidence, the two Amy's met again. Plus I don't think OldAmy would want any situation which didn't involve Rory staying with her. So she would not want to be dropped off.

[Eldan]

She did tell them she wanted to be dropped off alone somewhere and go traveling.

[Reverent-One]

Regardless, the rules of time don't like the idea of two different Amy's existing, especially when (or because of) one of those Amy's can't exist because her timeline changed. It's a paradox, this is a bad thing.

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by Reverent-One

Regardless, the rules of time don't like the idea of two different Amy's existing, especially when (or because of) one of those Amy's can't exist because her timeline changed. It's a paradox, this is a bad thing.

Exactly. In the special they maintained the timeline, eventually turning past Amy into future Amy. They aren't doing that here, past Amy will never become future Amy, the timeline is broken. If they save past Amy future Amy will never exist. The only way to save future Amy without a huge paradox is to abandon past Amy so that she will eventually become future Amy thus maintaining the timeline.

[Jibar]

By the by

Rory in a band?

That happened.

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by Jibar

By the by

Rory in a band?

That happened.

Not bad. Not bad at all.

[Starscream]

Originally Posted by Cen

why didn't it happen? because existing OldPond is living proof of doctor failing. And his ego just wouldn't stand it.

That's rather a harsh interpretation. You could just as easily say that the existence of YoungPond is proof he didn't fail. And the existence of both would mean he saved her 1.5 times at least. At no point did the Doctor behave as if his pride was a factor in leaving OldPond behind. Otherwise he wouldn't have given the choice to Rory of which to save. He just made it clear that he couldn't save both.

The egotistical thing to do would have been to save both somehow, and screw the laws of time and space because I'm the Doctor and I say so. He's seen the consequences of that sort of behavior.

As for why two Amys were able to simultaneously exist in the Children In Need Specials, that's the difference between an Ontological Paradox and a Grandfather Paradox.

When they had the "Tardis inside the Tardis" situation, the Amy that exited the inner Tardis delivered a message, then stayed while the Amy that was there first then exited the outer Tardis (thus exiting the inner Tardis in the past) to do the same. They briefly existed side by side, but there was no paradox because the one eventually became the other. The only paradox that occurred is an Ontological Paradox (the transmission of information without origin), which is generally treated as "safe-ish" by Sci-Fi writers, because information has no physical existence, and therefore does not interfere with physical laws. And if I try to go into any more detail my brain will snap.

In the case of OldPond and YoungPond, the existence of one is proof that the other can't exist. If Amy was rescued when young, then OldPond does not happen. Amy does not spend 36 years miserable and alone, so there is no OldPond. Therefore, if OldPond exists, then YoungPond wasn't rescued, and she can't exist. This is called a Grandfather Paradox, the most dangerous kind. If you went back in time and killed your grandfather, you would cease to exist. But if you didn't exist, then you can't kill your grandfather, so you didn't, so you exist. Which means you did kill your grandfather which means *SNAP!*

Turtle sparkle leg-wax persimmons with rye dung beetle cardboard...

[Sanguine]

Starscream has got it right. Well except he forgot to mention you have to go back to before your father was conceived for the Grandfather situation to be a paradox.

[Dr. Simon]

Continuing my plan to post what I think to be the highlights of every season of Doctor Who, old and new.

For each series I'll try to choose 2, maybe 3 of what I consider to be the best stories, which may comprise any number of actual episodes (somewhere between 1-14, typically 4 or 6). Older Who is nearly always episodic, with NuWho most episodes are self-contained. Feel free to expand on my brief comments, agree, disagree etc. This is, after all, purely subjective.

Previous Posts:
Season One
Season Two
Season Three

And now...

Season Four (1966-1967)
First Doctor/Second Doctor/Ben/Polly/Jamie/Victoria

This season starts with a few William Hartnell stories, but ends with Patrick Troughton. Welcome, Second Doctor!

Power of the Daleks – yeah, yeah, another dalek one! The first story for the second Doctor, and sadly only in reconstructed form so we can’t fully judge his performance. However, I love the duplicity of the daleks in this one; compare and contrast with Victory of the Daleks; to me, “Would you like some liquid?” sounds far more sinister than “Would you like some tea?”, even though we lose the jammie dodger joke.

The Moonbase – story-wise a retread of The Tenth Planet, but done slightly better. Even if Polly is just sent to make the coffee. Again. Thanks, Kit "put the kettle on, love" Pedler.

Honourable Mentions
The Tenth Planet – the first appearance by the cybermen (with the strange sing-song voices), and also Hartnell’s last, although the whole of Who fandom reverberates with the frustration that the last episode (thus Hartnell’s last, and the first regeneration) is lost. Otherwise The Moonbase does the same story but slightly better, although I love the Antarctic location for this one.

[Kato]

Oh... no (real) Curly review yet? I'm surprised. I hope this doesn't mean she didn't get to see the episode yet but only not to post it yet... we'll see. Sounds like her mother is an evil mastermind though.

Thoughts on the episode.

Spoiler

I liked it. Yes, the timey wimey was a bit heave again but iz paid of. I'm not a sucker for emotional drama but at the end it even worked for me a bit. Friend of mine was much stronger affected, though.
I won't get into the argument whether they should have been able to save then!Ami but I guess for the drama there could only be one.... I guess it was the obvious choice but I still understand his problem. He killed an Ami. Period. Yeah, she suffered for years but still. (wow, let's not get on the topic of killing people in pain here) A person is a Person.

Hm... they probably blew half the special effect budget on that episode with the medic bots and ruining the Mona Lisa. I thought it was funny but apparently other people felt different about it. Meh, it's just a painting.

Hm... what else... I need to watch that scene with then!Ami and Rory again, I got distracted at that time, sadly.
I won't say I like it when there's not that much Eleven but Rory and Amy are just pretty awesome on their own which can be said for rather few companions so far, imo.
There was a thought just now... right, I also missed a reference to Rory's centurion identity. Yeah, it's not as bad, probably, conditionwise what with being able to moce freely and thus but he did it much longer. The last centurion and the... female samurai? Nah, Ami needs a better title... we'll see, I guess.


Next time: Horror again? Meh... well, we'll see.

[Androgeus]

Originally Posted by Kato

Spoiler

The last centurion and the... female samurai? Nah, Ami needs a better title... we'll see, I guess.

The Lone Samurai perhaps?

[CurlyKitGirl]

Yeah, yeah, no Curly review yet.
I got a late start on watching it on iPlayer Saturday night, and then one of the younger siblings slipped down the stairs and possibly broke their arm.
So I had to take them off to the A&E where we waited until five in the morning to be seen - over five and a half hours waiting I might add.
So it was only a bad sprain luckily, but it was so late it was early in the morning, meaning I just collapsed and slept all day because knackered.
And today was preparing a sibling for a trip to Wipers (Ypres for those of you who don't know).

Also: U GUYZ KAN HAZ SKEDUAL NAOW!!
But without (m)any specific dates, but this will be the order the reviews will be posted in, and the style in which they will be done.

'The Unicorn and the Wasp' - is literally about half an hour from completion waiting in its own tab. The usual long-winded fashion.
'The Girl Who Waited' - is open in its own tab, paused at 04:36. My running commentary style. Incidentally, I found out that this is also called liveblogging, so I'm pinching that name.
How did I find this out? There are twin sites called Mark Reads and Mark Watches, and on the latter site, he watched all of Nu Who. I've only read the reviews for what I've watched, but it's great reading his progress through the show.
'Genesis of the Daleks Parts 3 - 6' - why? Aside from really wanting to find out how it ends, I was chatting with someone who lurks on this site and loves this thread, and said person mentioned that what happened in that serial is important for the four-part serial at the end of the show.
So I know Daleks are back, and there will be genocide.
Way to spoil.
But this person literally seconds later remembered my insistence on being Blind As A Bat and immediately began apologising.
Why are the Daleks back?
They've been in every season so far, and in two of the last season finales?
Don't answer any of these. Usual long-winded format.
'Midnight' - I don't think I've seen all of this, but what I have seen was fun, and it was a long time ago. Usual format.
The rest of season four. I'm thinking of maybe doing something different for this because it's kind of an end of a era, and rumour calls it the most divisive finale of Nu Who so far.
I'm open for suggestions.

And A Special Request
The episode called . . . argh, episode list time . . . 'Closing Time' is a direct sequel to the episode 'The Lodger' from season five.
I have not seen most of season five, and at this point in time I am definitely committed to progressing through Nu Who in this style.
As such I'll be watching this episode in isolation from the rest of season five, and I'll be doing it in liveblog format, and then maybe when I get around to season five I'll do a briefer review in my usual style.
There will be many questions asked.
Please pull a River on them.
And seeing as I'm prone to schedule slip without having an actual schedule, and it often take me a few days to work my way through an episode due to Life, on the 20^th start figuratively spamming this thread with reminders and demands for me to watch the episode.
So yeah, thanks for that.

ALSO if I haven't seen a new episode, I'll avoid the thread until I have. No need to extend the rule about twenty-four hours until spoilers are no longer spoilers.

@Jibbers: I have found a new fantastic band.

ION: So many fansites and things have countdowns to the next episode. I can't decide if it's cool, too eager, or slightly worrying.

[Mauve Shirt]

Spoiler

I'm surprised Rory never pulled the "I waited 1000 years for you" card.
Next episode: The Shining, much?

[factotum]

Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl

Why are the Daleks back?
They've been in every season so far, and in two of the last season finales?

I heard that was something to do with the deal Russell T. Davies made with Terry Nation's estate in order to use the Daleks at all--he had to promise to feature them at least once per series. No idea if that's true or not, though, and it certainly doesn't seem to apply now since they're getting "rested" this year!