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Personally, I don't see why Deft Shootist is even required. Most of the time you can just 5 foot step away and full attack. If that's not an option, you can use Acrobatics to tumble away with a high probability of success. Sure, you'll miss out on your 2nd attack but IMO it's better than having to burn 3 feats.
It's important for Snap Shot, since it starts at threatening at 5', which you can't 5' away from if you want to take advantage of.
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Completely unrelated but, Cieyrin, why do you value Hammer the Gap so much? Even an 11th-level Gunslinger with Haste will only get 6 damage if he hits every shot. Aside from some edge-case build where a level 16 slinger is shooting 2 Speed revolvers with Rapid Shot (which would be +45 over 10 attacks), it doesn't seem worthy of "light blue" quality.
I'll be changing it to purple, as playtesting it on my PFS Gunslinger has proven that it's worse than Weapon Specialization except on Gundolons, Guns Akimbo builds and TWFers in general and even then. A little math and critical thinking on my part would show that it's pretty much a trap.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
Bestiary Races Aasimar: Work well as any type of 'slinger, as they have a boost to their Grit pool regardless of the path you take. The Diplomacy boost is lost on them without a trait or such giving them Diplomacy as a class skill. Plus, you can't get much more mysterious than an Aasimar Mysterious Stranger. Tengu: Near perfect stats, good skills, proficient with all swords as a a neat side perk. Just...nice... Tiefling: Opposite side of the coin from aasimar and about as good as gunslingers. Fiendish Heritage to be born of Asura, Div or Rakshasa stock can get you better stat array, plus the Varient Tiefling Abilities can get you up to +4 Wis or Cha, among other things, so you can truly be infernally gifted at 'slinging.
It is perhaps worth mentioning that all 3 of these races will become legal for Pathfinder Society play on August 16th. Blood of Fiends also allows you to take a variant Tiefling heritage without a feat, and is PFS legal.
It is perhaps worth mentioning that all 3 of these races will become legal for Pathfinder Society play on August 16th. Blood of Fiends also allows you to take a variant Tiefling heritage without a feat, and is PFS legal.
Not really designing the Handbook with PFS in mind but Pathfinder in general. I'm considering the whole class, not just the first 12-13 levels and the features that are available in those levels and not banned by PFS, which can be silly or nonsensical at times.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
As a random aside, I've been digging into a lot of Gunslinger resources lately (like this guide on the Paizo boards and the Gamer's Guide to Pathfinder podcast), and it's disturbing how many people didn't actually seem to read Deadeye. A lot of people seem to have the impression that for just 1 grit point, you can make touch attacks at your full 5 range increments.
P.S. Another rule most people seem to miss: Paper cartridges increase the misfire value of the gun by 1. I see a lot of advice to the tune of "Always be using paper cartridges!", ignoring the fact that it actually doubles your chance to misfire with a pistol. The way I see it, a paper cartridge should only be used when you're full attacking or when you really need your move action. Otherwise just 5-foot step, reload, and fire. By level 6, yeah, you're going to need it for your iterative attack, but hopefully you've saved up 8,000 gp by then (WBL suggests 16,000 gp) for a +1 Reliable gun.
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Rules that supersede Rule 0:
Rule -1: You're all there to have fun. The GM and the players should never do anything that would limit people's fun, for any in-game or real-life reason.
Rule -0.5 (corollary): That means that if someone's fun is getting in the way of other people's fun, that person needs to change how they're playing.
P.S. Another rule most people seem to miss: Paper cartridges increase the misfire value of the gun by 1. I see a lot of advice to the tune of "Always be using paper cartridges!", ignoring the fact that it actually doubles your chance to misfire with a pistol.
Maybe they all play Dwarves?
*cough* favored class bonus *cough*
Maybe they all play Dwarves?
*cough* favored class bonus *cough*
Yeah, that one's pretty good. But what about humans, who can get 1/4 their level to their grit pool? On the one hand, more grit is much more exciting than hit points. On the other hand, most characters start at level 1 (and in my experience, almost never go higher than 10), and if we're looking at feat equivalents, the hp option is pretty much Toughness while the grit option doesn't stack up with Extra Grit until level 8.
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Rules that supersede Rule 0:
Rule -1: You're all there to have fun. The GM and the players should never do anything that would limit people's fun, for any in-game or real-life reason.
Rule -0.5 (corollary): That means that if someone's fun is getting in the way of other people's fun, that person needs to change how they're playing.
By level 6, yeah, you're going to need it for your iterative attack, but hopefully you've saved up 8,000 gp by then (WBL suggests 16,000 gp) for a +1 Reliable gun.
Surprising as it sounds, Paper Cartridges can stand in for Rapid Reload in the early levels if you're that pressed for feats or are a Musket Master who'd like to shoot every round previous to Fast Musket coming online. So while you don't necessarily need Paper Cartridges early on, they're an acceptable risk if you need movement or more firepower.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
Surprising as it sounds, Paper Cartridges can stand in for Rapid Reload in the early levels if you're that pressed for feats or are a Musket Master who'd like to shoot every round previous to Fast Musket coming online. So while you don't necessarily need Paper Cartridges early on, they're an acceptable risk if you need movement or more firepower.
That's a very good point about the level 1-2 Musket Master, although, 15% misfire chance? Ouch.
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Rules that supersede Rule 0:
Rule -1: You're all there to have fun. The GM and the players should never do anything that would limit people's fun, for any in-game or real-life reason.
Rule -0.5 (corollary): That means that if someone's fun is getting in the way of other people's fun, that person needs to change how they're playing.
Howdy, everyone! This is my first post on the Giant in the Playground forums, and I must first say the The Gunslinger's Handbook has been indispensable in creating my first Pathfinder character.
Spoiler
As this is the first time everyone in my gaming group will be playing Pathfinder, I gravitated to the Mysterious Stranger at first glance. I even set it up with the GM to purposely arrive late to the first session, arriving on the scene murdering what appears to be a friendly NPC to cause a ruckus and get the story moving.
In any case, I'm building the character to be a darkly charming Half-Elf, fewest-shots-to-kill-with-a-single-pistol kind of guy. Since this is my first foray into Pathfinder (and really, 3.5-3.75 in general..), I'd really appreciate build advice if y'all would be willing to offer it. I'm mainly concerned with feats right now, planned out like this:
Well, if you want to go for the flavour of "fewest shots to kill", you probably want to focus on accuracy and damage over extra shots - so I would get Precise Shot and Deadly Aim before Rapid Shot. Although, mechanically, getting Focused Aim on 2 shots every round instead of 1 is probably better.
Continuing with the "single deadly shot" flavour, consider getting Signature Deed at level 11 for Dead Shot. Alternatively, get Signature Deed on Focused Aim and add Cha to damage every turn - and then perform Dead Shots manually, adding that cinematic "Finishing Shot" feel to it.
Have a backup plan levels 1-4 for when your gun misfires. One possibility is to take that trait that makes you rich as hell and buy make a second pistol.
And lastly... don't spend too much time planning for 20. In my experience, most campaigns end around level 7 for one reason or another. Never design a "well, he sucks now, but he'll be so much fun once I hit 13!" type character. Not that this Gunslinger is that, he seems very fun to play at low levels, I'm just giving some general advice.
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Rules that supersede Rule 0:
Rule -1: You're all there to have fun. The GM and the players should never do anything that would limit people's fun, for any in-game or real-life reason.
Rule -0.5 (corollary): That means that if someone's fun is getting in the way of other people's fun, that person needs to change how they're playing.
Thanks for the advice! I tend to build a character based on flavor-driven choices that are mechanically sound, the former before the latter, so more accuracy and damage vs. more shots makes sense. Do you think I should eschew Rapid Shot altogether, in favor of Signature Deed (probably for Focused Aim)?
Thanks for the advice! I tend to build a character based on flavor-driven choices that are mechanically sound, the former before the latter, so more accuracy and damage vs. more shots makes sense. Do you think I should eschew Rapid Shot altogether, in favor of Signature Deed (probably for Focused Aim)?
Yeah, I would probably get rid of Rapid Shot, bumping Precise Shot and Deadly Aim to an earlier slot. Also take Improved Critical as early as possible - not for the damage, but because it gives you a lot more Grit to play around with, and using Grit is fun. So your build would look like
I see that as the core of your build, the rest of the feats don't really matter.
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Rules that supersede Rule 0:
Rule -1: You're all there to have fun. The GM and the players should never do anything that would limit people's fun, for any in-game or real-life reason.
Rule -0.5 (corollary): That means that if someone's fun is getting in the way of other people's fun, that person needs to change how they're playing.
If you really want to push damage per shot, I'd even consider switching Point Blank Shot and Rapid Reload and just have Paper Cartridges when you need to shoot and reload in the same round. The rest of the time you can get into a better position for your next shot, which fits your modus operandi quite cleanly. I'd also consider switching Deadly Aim and Precise Shot, as 4th level is a sweet level to pick the feat up, as you can trade -2 to hit for +4 damage + your Cha via Focused Aim. Not a bad deal there, especially given you'll probably be in Point Blank range, so it's effectively -1 for +5.
Also, if I may ask, any particular reason to go Half-Elf? You could probably get a bit more mileage out of going Halfling or Human and have any 2 of PBS, Precise Shot and Rapid Reload as a Human at 1st level or have a bonus to both Dex and Cha, which are important for a Mysterious Stranger. Yeah, you'll lose a point of damage for using a smaller pistol but you'll gain it back in accuracy for your size and via Focused Aim.
I would definitely slot Signature Deed at 11th for continuous Cha to damage via Focused Aim. I would go so far as to say no straight class Gunslinger has a feat slot at 11th, they just gain a class feature called Signature Deed. And while losing Rapid Shot is a sad thing for damage purposes, Deadly Aim and Focused Aim should keep you in damage.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
I'm mainly choosing Half-Elf for:
1. Flavor (oh how I love the interbred, attractive outcast. )
2. +2 Willpower (Dual Mind)
3. +2 Initiative (Elven Reflexes)
However, even losing one feat I'm feeling the hurt, especially since it's looking like I'll be pulling face duty (not that I mind.) As for Halfling, I'm not sure I could do the race justice with regards to roleplaying.
Here's my current plan (barring the need for a more face-oriented path, or something like Master Alchemist):
Really, the only reason for keeping Rapid Shot is to qualify for Snap Shot, then into the Combat Reflexes approach, since I don't see much else in the way of combat-prowess options. I think that's ultimately the goal: be a pretty good face, RP-heavy, then shock and awe on the battlefield.
I'd actually consider dipping a couple levels of Monk or Fighter to get that combo online faster, as you rapidly lose coolness the later those come online. If there was a quicker way of getting it all together via Gunslinger, I'd agree to it but I can't think of one right this moment.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
I'd actually consider dipping a couple levels of Monk or Fighter to get that combo online faster, as you rapidly lose coolness the later those come online. If there was a quicker way of getting it all together via Gunslinger, I'd agree to it but I can't think of one right this moment.
Do note that dipping Zen Archer Monk will get you a bonus archery feat and Wis to AC (which will be roughly equivalent to your light armor, effectively trading Flat-Footed AC for Touch AC). A reasonable DM will also probably allow you to use Perfect Strike with your gun (it's only 1/day after all). An insane DM will even allow Flurry of Blows with your gun, although I think most would agree that that's a little much.
Edit: You also lose 1 BAB but get +2 to all saves. I did it on my Gunslinger, mainly for the flavour of fighting unarmored, but I think it's a solid dip nonetheless. You can put the money you save on that +1 Mithril Chain Shirt towards better guns, or a +Dex or +Wis item.
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Rules that supersede Rule 0:
Rule -1: You're all there to have fun. The GM and the players should never do anything that would limit people's fun, for any in-game or real-life reason.
Rule -0.5 (corollary): That means that if someone's fun is getting in the way of other people's fun, that person needs to change how they're playing.
So, I'm liking the idea of a character that utilizes 2 double-barreled pistols.
Assuming this is legal in Society play...
I would choose Pistolero, and eventually save up for 2 of the double barrels.
Does anyone have a general skeleton to a build like this? Perhaps with a breakdown of the first 4-5 levels?
I'm pretty noob to most of PFS but Gunslinger seems like one of the higher skill curve characters that can become extremely powerful when utilized correctly. And there's just a ton of flavor when it comes to character creation :)
So, I'm liking the idea of a character that utilizes 2 double-barreled pistols.
I would choose Pistolero, and eventually save up for 2 of the double barrels.
Does anyone have a general skeleton to a build like this? Perhaps with a breakdown of the first 4-5 levels?
Well, you'll need to be able to reload both weapons.
This can be accomplished best/cheapest with 2 Weapon Cords (cheap!).
You will NEED the Rapid Reload feat. This is NOT optional.
Deadly Aim is AWESOME, but it can wait until 4th level or so.
Most standard 'archery' feats also apply: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, etc...
Improved Critical is a MUST once you hit 8 Bab. You only have 2 ways to regain Grit, this doubles your chances with one of the ways.
A little more specific for your idea of Dual-Double-Barreled.
Go Dwarf. The Favored Class option is "1/4 less chance of Misfire" minimum 1.
Double Barreled have a misfire of 2 (whereas normal pistols are only Misfire 1), and if you are using Alchemical Cartridges, this increases to 3. So the Dwarf ability will be very much appreciated.
Dwaves also have solid stats, +2 Con/Wis, and -2 Cha are almost perfect.
There are some Alternate Racial traits worth looking at as well.
I was doing a little searching on the Paizo boards, and I noticed something posted on July 20th from the lead Rule guys mentioning changes to how gunslingers function.
Does this negate the previously posted strategy for reloads? (Free Actions)
I was doing a little searching on the Paizo boards, and I noticed something posted on July 20th from the lead Rule guys mentioning changes to how gunslingers function.
Does this negate the previously posted strategy for reloads? (Free Actions)
I don't know to what you're referring, other than they made firearms not Always Available, which shouldn't negate anything grarrrg has said. In any case, what's on the forums isn't RAW till it becomes errata or is posted in the Additional Resources doc, so I wouldn't worry about it till that happens.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
Would any of you happen to know of any public 'builds' that run through say...a society legal version of a Gunslinger?
I've done quite a bit of reading on the class, and I'm trying to let it all sink in (brain overload), but it seems to me like if you build them right...a Gunslinger can be quite powerful.
It seems like the only thing holding back a Musket Master is the range on a Double-Barrel Musket (10ft WTF?)...and the only thing holding back a dual weilding double-barrel pistol user is GM discretion on the number of free actions you can take per round?
However, from a basic perspective, using a standard 40ft range Musket, I'm seeing great potential in early levels.
So for an example of what I'm thinking...
At level 3 - Using 10/18/10/10/16/10 - What would my numbers look like using something like Rapid Shot and any other important Feats? (using a 1d12 Musket and 2d12 Double Barrel Musket).
So, I had planned to play a Ratfolk Pistolero Gunslinger/Vivisectionist Alchemist. The core concept basically involved being the "fastest gun in the west", with a character that wins initiative, rolls out the twin pepperboxes, and fires on a flat-footed opponent with Sneak Attack/Pistolero grit feat until dead. Also, alchemy. (Rogue could work as well, and the group as it stands needs a skill monkey, but with 18 INT, I more or less have it covered anyway. I'd also rather have the alchemy, but whichever.)
Problem is, I have NO idea where to break off of Gunslinger for this. I have one level already (which gives me 1d6 off that level, plus Gunsmith, etc), but 5 and 7 also make excellent break points for a Pistollero Gunslinger. The game is on the fast track to 20, and I just gained two levels in the last session, which need to be assigned either to Gunslinger or to Alchemist/Rogue (or whatever else I choose, but likely one of these). Can somebody please help me figure all this out?
In my very limited experience, the good cutoffs in Gunslinger are at 5, when you get gun training and thus dex to damage, or at 11, when you get signature deed and can use a particular damage booster deed at will.
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Originally Posted by Waker
[..] that post by Crasical...I can't find the words. Were I capable of emotion, I would cry.
Would any of you happen to know of any public 'builds' that run through say...a society legal version of a Gunslinger?
I've done quite a bit of reading on the class, and I'm trying to let it all sink in (brain overload), but it seems to me like if you build them right...a Gunslinger can be quite powerful.
It seems like the only thing holding back a Musket Master is the range on a Double-Barrel Musket (10ft WTF?)...and the only thing holding back a dual weilding double-barrel pistol user is GM discretion on the number of free actions you can take per round?
However, from a basic perspective, using a standard 40ft range Musket, I'm seeing great potential in early levels.
So for an example of what I'm thinking...
At level 3 - Using 10/18/10/10/16/10 - What would my numbers look like using something like Rapid Shot and any other important Feats? (using a 1d12 Musket and 2d12 Double Barrel Musket).
There isn't a lot to Gunslinger that isn't PFS legal. I mean, culverins aren't but you weren't looking at those, anyways. Also, I don't see why GM discretion would hold back a pistol user with free action reloads any more than it would bow or crossbow users other than the GM being a jerk about it.
So, assuming 3rd level Human Musket Master, with those stats, (remember, double barreled muskets are not the same proficiency as regular muskets, so Musket Master's free Rapid Reload, so keep that in mind. Also that PFS making firearms not Always Available means you can't get a double-barreled musket till between 3rd and 4th at the earliest due to Fame restrictions), you're looking at Point Blank, Precise, Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot, so a regular attack bonus of +8, +9 while in Point Blank range (most of the time), +7/+7 with Point Blank/Rapid Shot. You'll be doing d12+1 1-2 times a round, so averaging 7.5-15 damage a round, provided you don't jam, which you very well as a Musket Master with Paper Cartridges to keep up with the reloads. The damage spike happens at 4th and 5th, when you can pick up Deadly Aim at 4th and Musket Training at 5th.
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Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol
So, I had planned to play a Ratfolk Pistolero Gunslinger/Vivisectionist Alchemist. The core concept basically involved being the "fastest gun in the west", with a character that wins initiative, rolls out the twin pepperboxes, and fires on a flat-footed opponent with Sneak Attack/Pistolero grit feat until dead. Also, alchemy. (Rogue could work as well, and the group as it stands needs a skill monkey, but with 18 INT, I more or less have it covered anyway. I'd also rather have the alchemy, but whichever.)
Problem is, I have NO idea where to break off of Gunslinger for this. I have one level already (which gives me 1d6 off that level, plus Gunsmith, etc), but 5 and 7 also make excellent break points for a Pistollero Gunslinger. The game is on the fast track to 20, and I just gained two levels in the last session, which need to be assigned either to Gunslinger or to Alchemist/Rogue (or whatever else I choose, but likely one of these). Can somebody please help me figure all this out?
5th is your best bet for skipping out if you want more Sneak dice, as Dead Eye isn't something to write home about. Get your pepperboxes enchanted with Distance or put Distance ammo in and don't worry about it.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
There isn't a lot to Gunslinger that isn't PFS legal. I mean, culverins aren't but you weren't looking at those, anyways. Also, I don't see why GM discretion would hold back a pistol user with free action reloads any more than it would bow or crossbow users other than the GM being a jerk about it.
So, assuming 3rd level Human Musket Master, with those stats, (remember, double barreled muskets are not the same proficiency as regular muskets, so Musket Master's free Rapid Reload, so keep that in mind. Also that PFS making firearms not Always Available means you can't get a double-barreled musket till between 3rd and 4th at the earliest due to Fame restrictions), you're looking at Point Blank, Precise, Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot, so a regular attack bonus of +8, +9 while in Point Blank range (most of the time), +7/+7 with Point Blank/Rapid Shot. You'll be doing d12+1 1-2 times a round, so averaging 7.5-15 damage a round, provided you don't jam, which you very well as a Musket Master with Paper Cartridges to keep up with the reloads. The damage spike happens at 4th and 5th, when you can pick up Deadly Aim at 4th and Musket Training at 5th.
5th is your best bet for skipping out if you want more Sneak dice, as Dead Eye isn't something to write home about. Get your pepperboxes enchanted with Distance or put Distance ammo in and don't worry about it.
Ok, the only thing I'm still confused on is: "remember, double barreled muskets are not the same proficiency as regular muskets, so Musket Master's free Rapid Reload, so keep that in mind."
Does this mean if I want to use a Double Barrel Musket Build I need to literally pick Rapid Reload - DBMuskets?
Ok, the only thing I'm still confused on is: "remember, double barreled muskets are not the same proficiency as regular muskets, so Musket Master's free Rapid Reload, so keep that in mind."
Does this mean if I want to use a Double Barrel Musket Build I need to literally pick Rapid Reload - DBMuskets?
Yes. Silly, I know, but the way Paizo designed firearms, Muskets and Double-Barreled Muskets (as well as Pistols and Double-Barreled Pistols) are different weapons and would need to have feats applied to them individually, whether that is Weapon Focus, Rapid Reload, whatever. In a home game, I'd totally waive that but that's how it works RAW.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
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