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Y'need to read that again, bullets and black powder don't cost anything through the feat. Cartridges still cost you moneys.
No, kind sir, it is YOU who needs to read that again:
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...If the bullet and black powder or the alchemical cartridges are normal shot, you do not need to pay for the ammunition. If you want to recover any other kind of ammunition,...
Hmm...well, that's vague. What's their definition of 'normal shot,' I wonder...
Presumably it means pellet cartridges and bullet cartridges (the ones that correspond to non-cartridge ammunition) as opposed to flare cartridges, dragon's breath, and entangling cartridges.
Note, however: "Spend 1 grit point while in combat to recover either 1 bullet and 1 dose of black powder or 1 alchemical cartridge from a hidden stash on your person that you had, until now, forgotten about." No end-of-day or travel-time loading up, I'm afraid.
edit: Poking around, it occurs to me that, as written, there doesn't seem to be any reason you can't apply gunslinger abilities to melee attacks with a dagger pistol, sword cane pistol, axe musket or warhammer musket. I'm sure there is a use for this.
I'm anxiously awaiting the completion of this handbook. Also, has anyone else done any other handbooks? I know there is currently the Summoner. But what about the other classes?
I recently started playing pathfinder, and the gunslinger drew me right off. Ive played to level 6 pure gunslinger, and i must say im pretty pleased. My DM is leading a pretty rough epic difficulty campaign, so has allowed earlier advancement of some skills. I got to take my signature deed at level 6, and chose up close and deadly. Does UCnD apply to each attack or only the first? I know its precision damage, just wondered how many times it would apply.
Ive also taken 2 weapon fighting, rapid shot, and imp 2 weap fighting. At gunslinger 6, if my math is kosher, i get 3 attacks at -2, 2 mainhand, 1 offhand. I can also choose to take an extra attack via rapid shot, making 4 at -4. 3 mainhand, 1 offhand. With Improved 2 weapon fighting, there can be a fifth at -5. All of this is contingent on my reload times. Ive basically spent a fortune and made several unsuccessful craft checks in making a repeating gun, similar to a bolt pistol (wh40k) in the fact that the shell doesnt eject. My DM has allowed this, knowing the amount of gold and effort ive put into making the pistols. So i generally get to load prior to battle, and when i run out, i generally just take full round to reload both.
All of this to get to my second point. Ive decided to cross class into alchemist, and to keep costs low, ive been wondering about the feasibility of making alchemical cartridges with extracts in them, and just shooting party members with whatever extract i need to use. The first problem i see is the reloading fact. With my gun design not ejecting shells, i can keep the containers, and reuse at will, so i may just need to stop normal rotations altogether when i need to use an extract shell. Im thinking about at alchemist 2 taking the second arm so i dont need to stop combat in order to use an extract.
Up Close and Deadly is per attack. Since you got early access to Signature Deed, you can just Up Close and Deadly every attack.
As for the second, Vestigial Arm is good for having a free hand to reload both of your guns, though Rapid Reload + Paper Cartridges generally serves you better on normal pistols than on Pepperboxes, since the misfire chance is lower. Pepperboxes are good for loading your guns with special bullets, like you have with your custom guns. The ranged extract delivery I can't really say on but it sounds like a Discovery based off of Infusion and probably requiring it, so that's something to work out with your DM.
As for the feat loadout, it sounds like it'll work out fine, as I currently am running a Gunslinger through PFS who just hit 6 with a normal pistol and Rapid Shot who is just now shooting 3 shots, which gets slightly less accurate when I use Deadly Aim to increase my damage further.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
Gotcha. It seems a bit cheese when i think about it from a DM standpoint, but to spare myself the cost of normal extracts, i decided to put them into shell form and take advantage of the gunsmithing feat :D
As far as deadly aim, i may look into it next feat, but for now my damage output is pretty stable. My pistols have been worked to death, and basically act as iceshot pistols, but with the bolt gun capability. So at this point for attack and damage rolls, full out, its five attacks, first hits twice due to manyshot, and then whatever hits at 3d6 (2 up close, 1 sneak attack) 1d8 for the weapon, plus 8 dex pistol training, plus 8 dex gun training, plus 4 from an armor i had crafted, and plus 3 magical from the pistols themselves. Altogether, each hit rolls at 3d6+1d8+23. Im generally pretty pleased with output. I mainly went alchemist for versatility. And mutagens make my attack and damage rolls go nuts. XD
This guide makes me want to play a goblin gunslinger... if only the monster race fluff in Pathfinder wasn't so Grimderp. But either way, good work.
No problem. I should be getting back to work on this starting this week, as my financial situation has somewhat stabilized, which means I'm not freaking out so much about where money is coming from and thus able to do meaningful work.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
What does everyone recommend doing when multiclassing and entering an archetype that grants a redundant free gun? Sell for scrap? Draw it instead of loading? Use it to switch between two types of weapons?
What does everyone recommend doing when multiclassing and entering an archetype that grants a redundant free gun? Sell for scrap? Draw it instead of loading? Use it to switch between two types of weapons?
The free guns don't tend to sell for much, if you're allowed to sell at all. I'd keep them, as Musket Master can always use a blunderbuss to go with the musket and more pistols are never a bad thing. Having a musket on a pistol focused character can be helpful for that first round when you haven't reached optimal range.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
Sooo... How does one use Gun Tank, work, exactly? I've never played the game at very high levels, so I don't know how much dexterity I should have or be expecting to work with at different level. It seems like by the time a mithral fullplate is affordable, (maybe 8th level?) the Gun Tank will have more dex bonus than the +5 allowed by the suit.
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I named and helped build the Pervirtuoso!
Ask me about Simon the Warblade!
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Originally Posted by Waker
[..] that post by Crasical...I can't find the words. Were I capable of emotion, I would cry.
Sooo... How does one use Gun Tank, work, exactly? I've never played the game at very high levels, so I don't know how much dexterity I should have or be expecting to work with at different level. It seems like by the time a mithral fullplate is affordable, (maybe 8th level?) the Gun Tank will have more dex bonus than the +5 allowed by the suit.
First off, shouldn't Armor Training top off at +5? They seem to have forgotten about the Level 20 Bonus feat (and being a multiple of 4....).
Then again, they copy/pasted from Fighter, and added +1 to the level, and at 19 Fighter got "armor mastery".
Still pretty dumb.
Most of the Gun Tank's features just need to be "wearing" armor, it doesn't need to be Heavy (although it is an option), a Mithril Breastplate would have a +7 max at level 8, much more reasonable.
Also, Bullet Deflection increases your AC vs. Firearm/Splash attacks. As it is fairly difficult to increase your Touch AC, this can be quite handy in a "LOTS of Guns" type game.
As far as Shields go, you still need a free hand to reload, so the only real option is the Buckler, which leaves you hand free w/a -1 attack penalty (unless you can grow another arm...). And I wouldn't recommend using a Tower Shield EVER (not even with Tower Shield Specialist Fighter).
First off, shouldn't Armor Training top off at +5? They seem to have forgotten about the Level 20 Bonus feat (and being a multiple of 4....).
Then again, they copy/pasted from Fighter, and added +1 to the level, and at 19 Fighter got "armor mastery".
Still pretty dumb.
It should but I've noticed more and more that Ultimate Combat seems to have been a bit rushed to get out the door on time, so there's errors here and there like that that a longer proofreading period would have taken care of.
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Most of the Gun Tank's features just need to be "wearing" armor, it doesn't need to be Heavy (although it is an option), a Mithril Breastplate would have a +7 max at level 8, much more reasonable.
Also, Bullet Deflection increases your AC vs. Firearm/Splash attacks. As it is fairly difficult to increase your Touch AC, this can be quite handy in a "LOTS of Guns" type game.
As far as Shields go, you still need a free hand to reload, so the only real option is the Buckler, which leaves you hand free w/a -1 attack penalty (unless you can grow another arm...). And I wouldn't recommend using a Tower Shield EVER (not even with Tower Shield Specialist Fighter).
You only have the attack penalty with the buckler if you use a melee weapon with that hand, bows, crossbows and firearms don't suffer the penalty, so there isn't an issue there. And I agree on the Tower Shield, except if you're a Tower Shield Specialist, Phalanx Soldier or Armor Master, and then it may work but that's pretty specific builds, none of which I'd want to put on a Gun Tank.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
Hey there, guys! 1st time posting here (Although I've been lurking for a couple years now)
Right now I'm wondering if using 2 archetypes (Pistolero and Mysterious Stranger) would be effective. I think it's possible to take both of them
Maybe I'm missing something, but the way I see, this way the gunslinger get the best of both worlds, he still adds his DEX modifier to damage (only when using pistols, but i don't think that's much of a problem) and can add his CHA as well for 1 grit point. (If he uses the Signature Trick feat, he adds both of them all the time, as long as he has grit, right?)
Am I correct in this or did I get something wrong?
Hey there, guys! 1st time posting here (Although I've been lurking for a couple years now)
Right now I'm wondering if using 2 archetypes (Pistolero and Mysterious Stranger) would be effective. I think it's possible to take both of them
Technically, by RAW, you can take them both.
But it's fairly obvious that Pistol Training was supposed to replace Gun Training, making the Archetypes incompatible with each other.
It's BEGGING for errata.
My recommendation is go Pistolero (or normal, or Musket....) and take a 2 level dip into Trophy Hunter Ranger. You gain your choice of "any 1st level Gunslinger deed". Focused Aim is a 1st level deed.
(if you REALLY want to pile on the damage, see the 2nd version of my Gundolon build in this thread)
Wow...
That. looks. Awesome!!!
I'm deeply ashamed I didn't see such awesomeness!
Questions:
If I have the feat multi/two-weapon fighting and my eidolon got, let's say, 6 arms, do all of them take the -2 penalty or does the penalty increase for each arm?
Do I get EXTRA 6 arms (in addition to the Summoner's) or do I get 6 arms total? (I'm guessing I only get to use the Eidolon's limbs, but one can dream...)
I'm about to play a campaign starting at 6th level, You think at this points it's better to focus on Summoner or Gunslinger? I'm thinking if I get to convince my DM to allow "Mysterious Pistolero" I'll go Gun 5/Sum 1... if not, I'm guessing Gun 3/Sum 3. Maybe get those Paladin levels later. What do you think?
BTW... is it me or at higher levels I get to attack the Anciet Red Dragon (touch AC: 4) about 10 times, probably hit all the attacks, and kill him before he even moves? I'd love to see my DM's face to that!
Technically, by RAW, you can take them both.
But it's fairly obvious that Pistol Training was supposed to replace Gun Training, making the Archetypes incompatible with each other.
It's BEGGING for errata.
My recommendation is go Pistolero (or normal, or Musket....) and take a 2 level dip into Trophy Hunter Ranger. You gain your choice of "any 1st level Gunslinger deed". Focused Aim is a 1st level deed.
(if you REALLY want to pile on the damage, see the 2nd version of my Gundolon build in this thread)
I have a preference for Rogue with Extra Rogue Talent to rush into the Grit Talent to pick up that 1st level deed and 1-3 grit, due to that the Grit talent doesn't check if you have a Grit pool already, so you get Amateur Gunslinger and that free 1st level Deed (including Focused Shot), a Grit feat of your choice (including Extra Grit), as well as +1d6 Sneak Attack and Evasion, which you can put to good use well before Evasive kicks in.
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Originally Posted by Lemmy
If I have the feat multi/two-weapon fighting and my eidolon got, let's say, 6 arms, do all of them take the -2 penalty or does the penalty increase for each arm?
It's a flat -2 when you two/multi-weapon fight, provided you use light weapons, which it isn't clear if pistols are or not, at least by RAW. They're fairly comparable to hand or light crossbows, which are light weapons for two-weapon fighting.
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Do I get EXTRA 6 arms (in addition to the Summoner's) or do I get 6 arms total? (I'm guessing I only get to use the Eidolon's limbs, but one can dream...)
Nope, you just get the arms you buy or get from your Eidolon.
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I'm about to play a campaign starting at 6th level, You think at this points it's better to focus on Summoner or Gunslinger? I'm thinking if I get to convince my DM to allow "Mysterious Pistolero" I'll go Gun 5/Sum 1... if not, I'm guessing Gun 3/Sum 3. Maybe get those Paladin levels later. What do you think?
I'd go for Gun 3/Sum 3, possibly as a Half-Elf so you can get an extra Evolution point and Multitalented to get Favored Class bonus on both classes so you have 6 Evolution points for 2 Limbs(Arms) and Ability Increase(Dex) and Gunslinger Initiative. Otherwise, if you can get Mysterious Pistolero to fly, I'd still go Half-Elf to pick up that extra Evolution point for 4 Evolution points for Limbs(Arms) and Ability Increase(Dex).
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BTW... is it me or at higher levels I get to attack the Anciet Red Dragon (touch AC: 4) about 10 times, probably hit all the attacks, and kill him before he even moves? I'd love to see my DM's face to that!
This all hinges on if it comes in range, which is difficult with 20' range increment and it not having a need to land if it can just strafe with its breath weapon. If you can get it to land, it's somewhat more feasible.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
First of all; thanks for the answer, it's really helpful! I've no expirience with gunslinger builds yet.
Second: Sorry if I mess up the quotes. Noob playgrounder here ^^
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Originally Posted by Cieyrin;
I have a preference for Rogue with Extra Rogue Talent to rush into the Grit Talent to pick up that 1st level deed and 1-3 grit, due to that the Grit talent doesn't check if you have a Grit pool already, so you get Amateur Gunslinger and that free 1st level Deed (including Focused Shot), a Grit feat of your choice (including Extra Grit), as well as +1d6 Sneak Attack and Evasion, which you can put to good use well before Evasive kicks in.
Ah, didn't think about that... Sneak Attack/Evasion would be nice. Makes me consider build a multi-armed ninja-dolon. But I'll leave that for another game.
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It's a flat -2 when you two/multi-weapon fight, provided you use light weapons, which it isn't clear if pistols are or not, at least by RAW. They're fairly comparable to hand or light crossbows, which are light weapons for two-weapon fighting.
Thats great news! DM says he considers firearms light weapons, for the exact same reason you said, they are not very different from light crossbows mechanically-wise (is this last word written right???)
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Nope, you just get the arms you buy or get from your Eidolon.
As I expected... No matter! 6~8 arms is still a lot of bullets per round!
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I'd go for Gun 3/Sum 3, possibly as a Half-Elf so you can get an extra Evolution point and Multitalented to get Favored Class bonus on both classes so you have 6 Evolution points for 2 Limbs(Arms) and Ability Increase(Dex) and Gunslinger Initiative. Otherwise, if you can get Mysterious Pistolero to fly, I'd still go Half-Elf to pick up that extra Evolution point for 4 Evolution points for Limbs(Arms) and Ability Increase(Dex).
I was thinking about going human for the extra feat and skill points. But now that you mention it, for a more summoner focused build, those extra evolution points would really help.
I'm thinking there's a fair chance of the Mysterious Pistolero being allowed... The party supposedly has a druid, an oracle and a witch (or magus), at least if nobody changes their mind 'til saturday. I'll probably be the least of the DM's concerns. He even said Tier 3 classes and below get +2 skill points/ level (+4 for fighters). Besides, technically, I'm not breaking (or even bending) any rules. Let's see how things work out.
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This all hinges on if it comes in range, which is difficult with 20' range increment and it not having a need to land if it can just strafe with its breath weapon. If you can get it to land, it's somewhat more feasible.
Well, if by level 14+ the friggin' wizard doesn't cast fly or something like that on me, so I can shoot the beast down, I'll leave the big lizard alone and blast the stupid old man carrying dusty books!
Which reminds me... Is there a "wings" or "flight" evolution? If so, is it worth taking or should I just focus on more arms/DEX and leave the flying to items/caster support?
And I must say: I love my dice! I rolled 18 18 16 12 10 and 8. Guess it's STR 8 DEX 18 CON 16, INT 12, WIS 10 and CHA 21 (2 racial + 1 for character level).
Edit: Aaaaand... I messed up the quotes... No surprises there.
I'm thinking there's a fair chance of the Mysterious Pistolero being allowed... The party supposedly has a druid, an oracle and a witch (or magus), at least if nobody changes their mind 'til saturday. I'll probably be the least of the DM's concerns. He even said Tier 3 classes and below get +2 skill points/ level (+4 for fighters). Besides, technically, I'm not breaking (or even bending) any rules. Let's see how things work out.
That'll help with your Gunslinger side, though not the Summoner side, given Summoners are T2.
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Which reminds me... Is there a "wings" or "flight" evolution? If so, is it worth taking or should I just focus on more arms/DEX and leave the flying to items/caster support?
There is a Flight evolution, though you can't select it till 5th level. Flight with wings is 2 Evolution points, Flight without wings (making it supernatural and gives you Perfect maneuverability) is 4 evolution points. You may be better off with a wand of Fly, though, given you'll have enough problems with multiclassing keeping your Synthesist side kind of weak and scraping up every bit of Evolution points you can get your hands on.
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And I must say: I love my dice! I rolled 18 18 16 12 10 and 8. Guess it's STR 8 DEX 18 CON 16, INT 12, WIS 10 and CHA 21 (2 racial + 1 for character level).
Edit: Aaaaand... I messed up the quotes... No surprises there.
Only issue with where you have your stats is, as a Synthesist, you replace your physical stats with the Eidolons, so your 18 and 16 will not get to play as much, hence why I emphasized boosting Dex to get it up to par while wearing your Eidolon. Still, it can be useful for when you're not making like Manspider with guns.
Announcement!
The Gunslinger's Handbook finally has an update, Skills are up. After I've had dinner, I'll be working on Traits and possibly Feats, if my fey mood keeps with me. Otherwise, it should get added sometime this week, as well as thoughts on firearms.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
The Gunslinger's Handbook finally has an update, Skills are up. After I've had dinner, I'll be working on Traits and possibly Feats, if my fey mood keeps with me. Otherwise, it should get added sometime this week, as well as thoughts on firearms.
AHHH RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!! THE APOCALYPSE IS UPON US!!!
REPENT! REPENT!!
*wink*
Seriously though, can anyone tell me why you would ever learn/cast "Weaken Powder" instead of "Damp Powder"?
Both spells have the same classes that can cast them, same school, same requirements, same,same,same...Only the effects are different.
Weaken Powder "range increment is halved and the firer takes a –2 penalty on damage rolls"
Damp Powder "attempt to fire that ammunition fails, with no chance for misfire, and the user must then take a full-round action to clear the weapon before reloading and firing"
Both require a DC 16 spellcraft to spot, and a Standard Action to clear 'before' being fired.
Seriously though, can anyone tell me why you would ever learn/cast "Weaken Powder" instead of "Damp Powder"?
Both spells have the same classes that can cast them, same school, same requirements, same,same,same...Only the effects are different.
Weaken Powder "range increment is halved and the firer takes a –2 penalty on damage rolls"
Damp Powder "attempt to fire that ammunition fails, with no chance for misfire, and the user must then take a full-round action to clear the weapon before reloading and firing"
Both require a DC 16 spellcraft to spot, and a Standard Action to clear 'before' being fired.
Seriously, WHY would you use Weaken Powder?
Got me. Why was Prone Shooter published? No one knows!
EDIT: Traits are now up. I also finally found my favorite art from UC, which now graces as the leading in picture of Traits.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
Only issue with where you have your stats is, as a Synthesist, you replace your physical stats with the Eidolons, so your 18 and 16 will not get to play as much, hence why I emphasized boosting Dex to get it up to par while wearing your Eidolon. Still, it can be useful for when you're not making like Manspider with guns.
Problem is, I need at least a DEX 15 for TWF. besides, in case of AMF or Banish, I'd still have some firepower. CON is nice, since the Eidolons HP add to yours (I think)
I guess I'll go STR 8, DEX 16, CON 12, WIS 18, INT 10, CHA 21
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Announcement!
The Gunslinger's Handbook finally has an update, Skills are up. After I've had dinner, I'll be working on Traits and possibly Feats, if my fey mood keeps with me. Otherwise, it should get added sometime this week, as well as thoughts on firearms.
Cool! I've been waiting for this!
There is a pretty good trait at Dwarves of Golarion, it's named Glory of Old. It gives a +1 bonus to all saves made to resist spells, spell-like abilities and poison. Oddly, it's a regional trait with no race requirement.
Maybe there are some half-dwarves around...
A solid for any class.
Also, is Killer really that useful? It adds your weapons hit modifier on a critical, but oly after the damage is multiplied. When you deal 3x or 4x more damage is a +5 that much of a difference?
I personally got Reactionary/Knack for Magic for the Gundolon build and Reactionary/Glory of Old for the full gunslinger build.
There is a pretty good trait at Dwarves of Golarion, it's named Glory of Old. It gives a +1 bonus to all saves made to resist spells, spell-like abilities and poison. Oddly, it's a regional trait with no race requirement.
Maybe there are some half-dwarves around...
A solid for any class.
I'm only covering the APG traits, which are the most commonly available. Not that Glory of Old is bad or anything, I like it on Dwarves with Steel-Souled, possibly Superstitious Barbarians.
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Also, is Killer really that useful? It adds your weapons hit modifier on a critical, but oly after the damage is multiplied. When you deal 3x or 4x more damage is a +5 that much of a difference?
There aren't really any other traits that do damage with firearms. I suppose Anatomist may be more worthwhile for comboing with Critical Focus to negate Dead Shot's crit penalty and confirm crits that more often in general. Also the fact that I'm a firm believer in there is no such thing as too much dakka, which Killer provides ably.
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Originally Posted by deuxhero
Dark Sun actually had such a thing. Worse backstory wise than Half-Orcs.
Ah c'mon, there's nothing wrong with Muls, other than they're all sterile.
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Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
I just pointed out the Glory of Old trait because I thought it was worth mentioning, mostly because being regional, it doesn't take the spot of valuable Combat traits.
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Originally Posted by Cieyrin
there is no such thing as too much dakka, which Killer provides ably.
You make a very good point.
Thanks agains for the awesome guide!
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I can't stand my own grammar mistakes. So if one of my posts has 4+ edits, chances are I fixed 4+ different typos.
I seem to find another one every time I read one of my posts!
I have figured out a way to Two-Weapon-Fight/Reload WITHOUT resorting to Spells/Extra Arms.
More elaboration will be added to my mini-reload guide in this thread, but here's the important bits:
Free Actions can be taken during a Full-Round Action
and:
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If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
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Re: [PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook
