it seems to poor little musically illiterate me that half these subcategorisations are ways for the bands to say "look at us, we're special and different" and for brown-nosing musical critics to validate the salaries they get paid..
do I recognize the various examples sound different? yes..they're different tracks by different bands.. I'd feel cheated if they didn't sound different.
that said, half the subcategories, I feel, have little reason to exist.. and the same happens with metal
or maybe I just don't understand it and it's my fault.
Yeah, basically. You also see subcategories used by certain genre fans as a way of downplaying/excluding bands they don't like - terms like 'metalcore' and 'nu metal', however they originated, seem largely used as labels the more obnoxious metal fans can slap on bands they don't approve of.
At the other end of the spectrum, there are some subcategories that are way too broad to be useful, to the point where they're better thought of as more of 'movement'. 'Goth', for example, can be applied to bands from quite a wide array of genres (although some of the aforementioned type fans can be relied upon to insist that's it's only 'real' goth if it sounds like a small handful of 80s bands). Prog seems to be kind of heading this way as well, particularly since Djent seems to be taking off.
It's trying to find a balance that's the difficult part.
Last edited by Mr.Silver : 06-10-2012 at 06:03 AM.
don't get me wrong, Aethernox.. I do care.. about the music, if not so much about the labels.. I just don't believe in over-specialisation...
when I want to explain to someone what kind of music a band plays, I hand them a record or send them a link. if need be, I list another couple of similar bands.. if they don't get it by then, I assume that (like me in more than a few genres) they lack the knowledge to understand any further specific labelling, so I just tell them "it's a variety of rock/pop/classic/jazz/whatever".. they wouldn't understand me anyway if I said bossanova, fusion, trip-hop, or any other more detailed label I may or may not be familiar with but they are clearly not.
also, some categorisations change according to what language they're into and you're speaking at the time..so.. it's one big pot of confusion... marred by a lot of pretensiousness caused often by those kind of critics who would so hard have wanted to have a musical talent and made it big.
and yes... I agree with Mr.Silver.
it's often also a fanmade snobbery that tends to see people who are not in the know or speak the highly specified lingo as morons who don't get it and who have..lesser tastes.
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You also see subcategories used by certain genre fans as a way of downplaying/excluding bands they don't like - terms like 'metalcore' and 'nu metal', however they originated, seem largely used as labels the more obnoxious metal fans can slap on bands they don't approve of.
For what it's worth, that might make sense except that it doesn't because people who like genres such as Metalcore generally refer to that genre as Metalcore. Isn't that like suggesting that people who don't like, say, rap invented the genre's name so that they could more easily dismiss it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dehro
marred by a lot of pretensiousness caused often by those kind of critics who would so hard have wanted to have a musical talent and made it big.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dehro
it's often also a fanmade snobbery that tends to see people who are not in the know or speak the highly specified lingo as morons who don't get it and who have..lesser tastes.
Wow. I don't know you, specifically, but a lot of that strikes me as entirely unfounded. Maybe you're just projecting or something, but I haven't really encountered anyone who was sincerely like that. That second quote, especially, feels... uncomfortable. Really? You think that music-enthusiasts use genres not to discuss music that they have an interest in but rather to somehow ridicule people who in many cases don't even have an opinion on the genre? Honestly, I might be misinterpreting, but that seems not just unreasonable but paranoid and anti-intellectual.
nah.. I don't have enough time to get paranoid about anything and yes, I've seen it happen, where people who were debating music elected to debate the merits of the various subgenres of jazz music and actively used these terms to shut out others who were sat at the same table from the conversation and appeared "less cool/well versed in the debate". and yes, 2 of those individuals were professional music critics. On a sidenote, my father was sat a little further down at the same table.. he's been passionately playing and listening to jazz music since long before either of the music critics were even born.. and was sat there scratching his head a little bemused. it was all rather funny to watch.
this particular episode is not the only one I remember of a similar nature..and my father himself is kinda guilty what with being what he calls a jazz purist (meaning, according to him, that Coltrane and Gillespie are cool..fusion is crap, and anyone playing today who isn't at least 50 years old doesn't know what he's doing)
so yes..these things do happen...and yes, there are people out there who like the fact that others don't "get the level of sophistication they have achieved". of course, this does happen to debate something they are passionate about, but more than a few individuals are aware of how cool it makes them look in the eyes of the less..informed (or so they agree upon talking amongst themselves.. again, not making this up.. I've seen it happen)
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The genre divisions exist for a few different reasons, but they mostly serve as a marketing tool in popular music. Critics have a very tough time explaining and reviewing music with words, and they use the divisions as a short-cut to explaining the general sound of some music if they know their audience will be familiar with the lingo. Listeners gravitate to a certain kind of music; they generally become invested in that genre and will often actively seek other groups that fall under its tent. Bands exploit this by referring to themselves as that genre and moving under the tent, and into whatever clique or community exists with in. Those are what I see as the useful reasons for genres to exist on the three sides of the fence, but of course not all of the reasons they do.
__________________ Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.
For what it's worth, that might make sense except that it doesn't because people who like genres such as Metalcore generally refer to that genre as Metalcore. Isn't that like suggesting that people who don't like, say, rap invented the genre's name so that they could more easily dismiss it?
Which would be a solid objection except that it isn't. (Oh snap, son! How you like me now! etc )
*Ahem*
Back on topic: I didn't say that was how they originated, just that's how one often - not 'exclusively' - sees the terms being used. See also pretty much every obnoxious metal-fan when responding to counter-examples to his/her claim that metal has the fewest bad bands of any genre.
Also worth noting: it's not exactly unheard of for people to adopt a label that was originally intended as a pejorative of the group. 'Punk' for example, was in widespread use as an insult long before it started being used as it is now.
Anyway, point is: Genre stuff isn't anything like an exact science and probably shouldn't be taken too seriously. Otherwise you end-up with silly things, like the exchange between Moff and myself earlier in the thread re: And You Will Know Know Us By The Trail Of Dead.
Last edited by Mr.Silver : 06-10-2012 at 12:52 PM.
Also worth noting: it's not exactly unheard of for people to adopt a label that was originally intended as a pejorative of the group. 'Punk' for example, was in widespread use as an insult long before it started being used as it is now.
Mr Callahan would agree.
Back on topic:
1. This music video is all shades of amazing (warning: rapid change of scenes and colors) - concept, execution and sheer ammount of behindes being kicked.
2. Rajna definately deserves a mention in this thread. Enchanting would be the word to describe them.
3. Samba Noir - I like the piece and I like the concept of making a darker and edgier version of samba even more. It's has samba rythm and the immense tention of good tango at the same time.
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You saw snobs being snobs, and in the process, they blathered about genres in a manner you didn't understand.
That doesn't mean for an INSTANCE that everyone who blathers about genres you don't understand is a snob.
true
however, in some instances I do find that people tend to..over-label stuff..
music that I do know a bit about being categorized as different when they are virtually undistinguishable except to the uber-specialized pundit.. meh.. it comes over as gimmicky.
but I will concede the point..not everybody approaches things this way, which is a blessing... and there are several musical genres I know not enough about even though I do appreciate them, to extend my criticism to everybody involved with them.
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Back on topic:
1. This music video is all shades of amazing (warning: rapid change of scenes and colors) - concept, execution and sheer ammount of behindes being kicked.
2. Rajna definately deserves a mention in this thread. Enchanting would be the word to describe them.
3. Samba Noir - I like the piece and I like the concept of making a darker and edgier version of samba even more. It's has samba rythm and the immense tention of good tango at the same time.
__________________ Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.
Comparing your post with my bookmarks I might be inclined to say, you're the very reason I know them.
Really? Huh. This may actually be the first I've successfully introduced someone on the internet to a band.
Cool, I guess. One more fan of them is a good thing.
I mostly found them through looking for stuff that fall within whatever genre it is that Dead Can Dance belong to/started. Also, Dead Can Dance are reforming, which I would say is a good thing.
I mostly found them through looking for stuff that fall within whatever genre it is that Dead Can Dance belong to/started. Also, Dead Can Dance are reforming, which I would say is a good thing.
what
Please excuse me while I go burst with excitement.
Also you just made me go check out Rajna.
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Originally Posted by Zale
Also, this is the internet. We're all borderline insane for simply being here.
__________________ Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.
I should link this: this is my best friend, and one of his friends. We're gonna do a full album later this summer, possibly with either the first, third, or both tunes on it. I think it's really well done, if quite lo-fi.
Here's a 60-second teaser clip for the local music TV show I'm producing, with short snippets from each of the 1st 6 acts. Doing another shoot this Friday with 3 more bands, and I should get the first episode turned in for broadcast some time in the next couple of weeks.
In the nearby jazz thread, there was a link to this outstanding piece (the whole channel is worth checking - see this for example).
The Tiny Desk Concerts are usually great. My favorite is this one, with Yo Yo Ma, Edgar Meyer, Chris Thile, and Stuart Duncan playing... has nu-grass been coined yet?
__________________ Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.
I just saw the music video for one of Amanda Palmer's new songs. It's quite simply brilliant.
The song is pretty cool too.
I'm not linking it because of lots of nudity. Seems like Amanda is more naked that not these days. But I got it off Neil Gaiman's site and I'm sure it's everywhere else as well. The song is called Want it Back.
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Awesome fremetar by wxdruid.
Charitably...I think...sometimes, perhaps, one must change or die. ~Sandman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zale
Also, this is the internet. We're all borderline insane for simply being here.
I just saw the music video for one of Amanda Palmer's new songs. It's quite simply brilliant.
The song is pretty cool too.
I'm not linking it because of lots of nudity. Seems like Amanda is more naked that not these days. But I got it off Neil Gaiman's site and I'm sure it's everywhere else as well. The song is called Want it Back.
Yeah, I saw it when the youtube vid had only 3 views.
It's kinda awesome. Relistening to that and Do It With A Rock Star, I'm really excited for her album!
Kinda wish they put the Polly cover on it as a bonus track or summat though, I love that cover.
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Re: Can we just do another music thread?
