D&D 3e/3.5e/d20The forum for conversations specifically related to the rules and procedures of Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition, 3.5 Edition, or any fantasy game using the d20 system or a variant thereof (commercially published or not).
Usually when you see this thread title, it's people asking what the tiers are for Pathfinder classes. I'm doing something a little different here; I'm going to list what I think are the tiers of the PF classes, and anybody who cares to can challenge it and try to convince me otherwise. Without further ado, here we go.
I don't know anything about Pathfinder, but its sad that the poor monk gets the short end, especially because in a lot of PF games he won't have access to his ridiculous amount of useful 3.5 splat ACFs.
Pathfinder adds a layer of complexity - namely, archetypes, which were represented in the old tier system to a smaller extent by ACFs. The right archetype/ACF can raise or lower the tier of a class, such as Mystic Ranger and Wildshape Ranger both being more powerful than the base Ranger.
It's possible to keep the complexity down by only listing an archetype if it changes a class' tier.
I don't know anything about Pathfinder, but its sad that the poor monk gets the short end, especially because in a lot of PF games he won't have access to his ridiculous amount of useful 3.5 splat ACFs.
Actually, there is a huge amount of Monk love in the latest PF splat-books. There are things like style feats (stances), ki pools (extra attacks, etc.), and archetypes that trade away their myriad useless abilities for useful ones, like cone of cold as a swift action any time you like. Not bad at all.
You left out cavalier. I'd consider bumping gunslinger to tier 3 (I think it's closer to an inquisitor, bard, or alchemist than it is to some of the lower-end tier 4's).
Fighter is still tier 5. Yeah, it can be a powerful one-trick pony. It could in 3.5 too.
Yes, but the definition of tier 4 is 'powerful one trick pony'. The minimum optimization floor for Fighter is lower in PF, and a lot of the archetypes are quite good, so I thought tier 4 was the right place for it.
Psion, PsyWar, Wilder, Soulknife, and Cavalier added.
You left out cavalier. I'd consider bumping gunslinger to tier 3 (I think it's closer to an inquisitor, bard, or alchemist than it is to some of the lower-end tier 4's).
Gunslinger is T4. "Can do one thing very well, but often useless when that one thing isn't required." If you need something shot, Gunslinger is your go-to, but if you don't, you get a couple of minor tricks from Utility Shot and nothing else.
Gunslinger is T4. "Can do one thing very well, but often useless when that one thing isn't required." If you need something shot, Gunslinger is your go-to, but if you don't, you get a couple of minor tricks from Utility Shot and nothing else.
Oh wow you're Psyren. Didn't even recognize you at first. Nice avatar.
Gunslinger; Gunslingers are probably high tier 4, or low tier 3, though an optimized one could hit mid tier 3, it would require a little work.
Also the pistolero, and mysterious stranger archetypes help it out as well, helping it reach mid or high tier three with less optimization(as both dex and charisma are useful for non-combat skills). edit; Also one somewhat useful ability for gunslingers is that both mysterious stranger and pistolero can be taken at the same time(at least as far as I can tell)
Monk; As has been said, some of the recent ultimate combat monk changes could help boost it's tier as well, though standard(no alternate class features/archetypes) PF monk is still probably high tier 5/low tier 4 at best.
__________________
Spoiler
Sawagakure: Village Hidden by the Valley Marsh OOC: I, IC: Team 1(I), Team 2(I)
Lereth: Stormport
OOC: I, IC: I
Verden
OOC: I, IC: I Homebrewer's Link(+PBP)
Member of;
avatar by Akrim.elf
Last edited by Togath : 09-03-2011 at 11:45 PM.
Reason: grammar
Gunslinger; Gunslingers are probably high tier 4, or low tier 3, though an optimized one could hit mid tier 3, it would require a little work.
Also the pistolero, and mysterious stranger archetypes help it out as well, helping it reach mid or high tier three with less optimization(as both dex and charisma are useful for non-combat skills). edit; Also one somewhat useful ability for gunslingers is that both mysterious stranger and pistolero can be taken at the same time(at least as far as I can tell)
Monk; As has been said, some of the recent ultimate combat monk changes could help boost it's tier as well, though standard(no alternate class features/archetypes) PF monk is still probably high tier 5/low tier 4 at best.[/size]
I've got to believe that's going to be fixed in a FAQ or errata. It's blindingly obvious (to me, at least) that pistol training was supposed to replace gun training.
It has been debated a few times with mixed results, but does the human sorcerer break into tier 1? The human sorcerer has 29 spells known over the 3.5 sorcerer (arcane can get another 3). That's a lot. So can the sorcerer get all the game-breaking spells in PF? 75 spells compared to 43 (63 to 34 if you discount cantrips) can't be readily ignored. PF's list of relevant spells is also smaller.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTrees
Oh! Better example!
DM: That's it! Rocks fall, everyone dies!
PC1: I have improved evasion
PC2: Natural twenty on the reflex save!
PC3: My reflex save is +15, and I didn't roll a one, so I'm good.
Ah, had missed that ability, aye, it looks like it's ment to replace gun training, though pistolero could still stack with gun tank, without diplomacy or gather information, though, the gunslinger has pretty much no out of combat abilities, leaving it probably at high tier 4, or low tier 3. Maybe higher with optimization, but not by much.
On the sorcerer; hard to say, I would say it isn't as big of a difference despight having 29 more spells, as pf has 43 9th level spells on the srd, it would probably be hard to get all of the game breakers(you would have to choose between different uber spells, rather than simply taking them all), over all, a pf sorcerer is probably still high tier 2, right on the edge between tier 2 and 1
__________________
Spoiler
Sawagakure: Village Hidden by the Valley Marsh OOC: I, IC: Team 1(I), Team 2(I)
Lereth: Stormport
OOC: I, IC: I
Verden
OOC: I, IC: I Homebrewer's Link(+PBP)
Member of;
avatar by Akrim.elf
Last edited by Togath : 09-04-2011 at 12:20 AM.
Reason: grammar
It has been debated a few times with mixed results, but does the human sorcerer break into tier 1? The human sorcerer has 29 spells known over the 3.5 sorcerer (arcane can get another 3). That's a lot. So can the sorcerer get all the game-breaking spells in PF? 75 spells compared to 43 (63 to 34 if you discount cantrips) can't be readily ignored. PF's list of relevant spells is also smaller.
I would answer with a hesitant yes. Tier 1 is all about having all the options ever, and human sorceror can basically do that, but it still doesn't have the sheer ability to decide, 'oh yeah, I'll pick up this spell here for a single situational encounter, and then forget all about it', like a wizard can. I'd say low tier 1.
Oh wow you're Psyren. Didn't even recognize you at first. Nice avatar.
I'm fond of the little Blue and may return to it, but I couldn't pass up the chance at being Thane for awhile.
/quickscope Dantius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Togath
Gunslinger; Gunslingers are probably high tier 4, or low tier 3, though an optimized one could hit mid tier 3, it would require a little work.
At the risk of showing my ignorance, how? T3 by definition requires you to be good at more than just fighting, even if it's fighting at range. None of the Gunslinger archetypes change that; they're all different ways of saying "I shoot it." They don't have the skills required to be a monkey or a face, none of their deeds help them sneak or scout (not to mention, guns are pretty loud anyway), can't bypass obstacles like walls or traps... and even in combat they have weaknesses, such as being in melee or dealing with groups.
I meant low tier 3 due too utility shot(though it's pretty dang weak), and if you dipped diplomacy classes with mysterious stranger(for charisma synergy).
By itself, the standard gunslinger(no dips, or archetypes) is low or mid tier 4, and at it's best is low tier 3, mainly if you use dips, multiclassing, and archetypes.
mainly I put it oddly because I'm tired today, the above is a better example of what I was trying to say
__________________
Spoiler
Sawagakure: Village Hidden by the Valley Marsh OOC: I, IC: Team 1(I), Team 2(I)
Lereth: Stormport
OOC: I, IC: I
Verden
OOC: I, IC: I Homebrewer's Link(+PBP)
Member of;
There are several monk archetypes that can bump it up to tier 4. Another notable would be the Qinggong monk.
Here's a fun question: What tier do you think an eidolon by itself would be? I would put it at tier 4; it can do what it's built to deal with well and occasionally contribute in other ways, too.
Utility Shot isn't enough to make it T3. You can shoot locks, which has a chance of making the lock even harder to open (not to mention griefing your party by rendering any lock that needs a key/combination unusable, lulz), and which isn't feasible for all locks, never mind any other access barriers. You can shoot tiny objects away from you, assuming you don't accidentally just sunder them instead. (Unattended only, so you can't even shoot the wizard's component pouch/cleric's symbol 15ft. away from them with this.) And you can cauterize bleeds - congratulations, you're now as effective as a cantrip.
And... that's it. Marginally better than just bang-bang-dead I suppose, but not nearly enough to change Gunslinger's tier.
Actually, there is a huge amount of Monk love in the latest PF splat-books. There are things like style feats (stances), ki pools (extra attacks, etc.), and archetypes that trade away their myriad useless abilities for useful ones, like cone of cold as a swift action any time you like. Not bad at all.
Kind of odd though, I wonder what it was that caused them to change their minds since they hadn't already while setting out to make the system in the first place.
__________________
"Children afraid of the night
Who have never been happy or good." - September 1, 1939. W.H. Auden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keld Denar
+3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
Kind of odd though, I wonder what it was that caused them to change their minds since they hadn't already while setting out to make the system in the first place.
With the roudn nerfs of the druid I would say it's gone to high tier 2.
But that's just my opinion.
I can't see how. It's still SAD, still has all its spells, still knows all its spells, and still gets a fighter as a class feature. Yeah Wild Shape was nerfed and Natural Spell killed, but those were both bonuses rather than the true engine behind the druid's tier.
And being able to drop the critter for a domain is pretty nice too, letting the PF Druid do silly things like enter Sovereign Speaker.
Spellcasting and full access to the Druid's spell list is what makes it Tier 1. A Druid without Wildshape and the Animal Companion is still Tier 1 -- those bennies are just icing on the cake. They are rather nice bennies, yes, but those aren't what make the Druid Tier 1.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kardar233
GitP: The only place where D&D and Cantorian Set Theory combine. Also a place of madness, and small fairy cakes.
Pathfinder adds a layer of complexity - namely, archetypes, which were represented in the old tier system to a smaller extent by ACFs. The right archetype/ACF can raise or lower the tier of a class, such as Mystic Ranger and Wildshape Ranger both being more powerful than the base Ranger.
It's possible to keep the complexity down by only listing an archetype if it changes a class' tier.
Wilder is tricky to place, particularly depending on archetype (I'd say Student is definitely T2) but doesn't fall below T3.
I just wanted to give that a plus 1.
Its true, it's relavent, and its pretty awesome.
They did a really good job with those classes.
Edit: I was about to say "didn't they nerf the Animal Companions" but I went to check... Still really good.
Still tier 1. (also apparently you can now pick vermin, no feat required, and its not "Just" off a list of critters. So... you know go wild. )
__________________
Last edited by Midnight_v : 09-04-2011 at 04:17 AM.
It has been debated a few times with mixed results, but does the human sorcerer break into tier 1? The human sorcerer has 29 spells known over the 3.5 sorcerer (arcane can get another 3). That's a lot. So can the sorcerer get all the game-breaking spells in PF? 75 spells compared to 43 (63 to 34 if you discount cantrips) can't be readily ignored. PF's list of relevant spells is also smaller.
In short, no. Not in my opinion anyways. The tiers aren't a measure of anything except the versatility of a class or acf (in the case of things like the Erudite). 29 more spells known radically increases versatility but it's still short of classes who can learn/already know all spells or powers on their lists.
Edit: I think once the list is reasonably accurate consideration should be given for placing Archetypes that radically shift their class' power into tiers.
__________________
Doc Roc: We're going to eat ourselves.
--------------------------------------
Snazzy avatar courtesy of Rowsen!
Last edited by Wings of Peace : 09-04-2011 at 04:15 AM.
Spellcasting and full access to the Druid's spell list is what makes it Tier 1. A Druid without Wildshape and the Animal Companion is still Tier 1 -- those bennies are just icing on the cake. They are rather nice bennies, yes, but those aren't what make the Druid Tier 1.
Depends on the spell list, mostly.
__________________
"Children afraid of the night
Who have never been happy or good." - September 1, 1939. W.H. Auden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keld Denar
+3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
... Yeah Wild Shape was nerfed and Natural Spell killed, but those were both bonuses rather than the true engine behind the druid's tier...
Now I've got to ask, in which way was Natural Spell killed? It looks the same as before to me - combine that with the fact that you can take it even earlier than in 3.5 seems an improvement to me.
And though Wild Shape was nerved, you still have the ability to change in, say, a bird or something way more mobile than your base form.
Am I missing something?
__________________
Thanks to Dirtytabs for the awesome ponytar =D
RSS Feeds: 
Pathfinder Tiers (Once Again)
