In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

[candycorn]

Originally Posted by TurtleKing

Here is what I have so far as for an highly optimised a "Truenamer plus" gestalt build.

Spoiler

Lets start with an Illumian with Naen for Int checks as one of the Power Sigils. The other could be either Hoon or Krau. Hoon helps with Constitution and Wisdom checks including skill checks. Krau adds a +1 CL on spell and SLAs. Level 2 increases this to +2 and Enhanced Power Sigil can increase this to +3 or +4. Only Naenhoon is somewhat useful if a divine caster or say Factotum which does get Turn Undead. Add feats such as Heroic Destiny for a +1d6 on one d20 roll/day. So Truenamer 20//Marshal 1/Factotum 8/Chameleon 10 or Exemplar 10. The last level can be anything really. Doing this can see having starting off with 18 Int and 18 Cha with Wish upto +5 on Int and tomes +5 Int and level ups +5 and Ring of Magnificence +6 to all stats:

23 ranks+Int 14+enhanced sigils 4?+ Skill Focus 3+Minor Aura 7+ 4 if Exemplar and +1-3 to Int mod if Chameleon+ Greater Amulet of Silvertongue 10+ Masterwork Item 2+ Paragnostic Assembly 10= static Truespeak modifer of 80 if Truenamer 20//Maeshal 1/Factotum 8/ Chameleon 10/ Exemplar 1. Can burst it upto 119 if you use Heroic Destiny, Guidance of the Avatar, Cunning Knowledge, and Universal Aptitude. Didn't even include Item Familiar since not sure how that works. So so far on a gestalt character with the highest optimisation could see having a static 80 modifer on Truespeak.

Is a static Truespeak mod of 80 with able to burst upto 119 the highest it can go? Is my math right?

Edit: Yes I know this is unrealistic, but wanted to see the cap of the ability.

Wish and Tomes don't stack, for one. They are both the same bonus type. That's on a cursory glance. There are likely other errors with stacking the same bonus type.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr

Little danger of that. I'm pretty much done with this until he addresses what I'm actually posting instead of sarcastic "here, let me fix that for you" edits and the like.

When you stop interpreting "a car that has gas can get you to work" as "there is definitely a car with gas, and it can get you to work", I won't need to correct your basic errors. Then I can move on to the less basic ones.

[Geigan]

Originally Posted by candycorn

Wish and Tomes don't stack, for one. They are both the same bonus type. That's on a cursory glance. There are likely other errors with stacking the same bonus type.

When you stop interpreting "a car that has gas can get you to work" as "there is definitely a car with gas, and it can get you to work", I won't need to correct your basic errors. Then I can move on to the less basic ones.

Or perhaps he's interpreting it as, "I need a car with gas to get to work, and if I don't have one I'm gonna need to get one." I'm going to get to work one way or another. If the car isn't an absolute I'm gonna have to work around it sure, but if the car is so unreliable that I can't even count on it regularly I'm going to have to get a new car.

[candycorn]

Originally Posted by Geigan

Or perhaps he's interpreting it as, "I need a car with gas to get to work, and if I don't have one I'm gonna need to get one." I'm going to get to work one way or another. If the car isn't an absolute I'm gonna have to work around it sure, but if the car is so unreliable that I can't even count on it regularly I'm going to have to get a new car.

No, he's assuming the car (masterwork tool) works.

"This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack."

There's the car. He's assuming that Masterwork tools exist (they do, they're the car). He's also assuming that for each skill, a masterwork tool exists (that's what isn't guaranteed. That's the gas.)

IF a masterwork tool exists which is related to truespeak, then the +2 will apply.

IF a car has gas, then it can get you to work.

The problem is, for the masterwork tool, only one source can verify that a related tool exists. The DM of the game you're building the truenamer for. Because the rules don't guarantee that masterwork tools exist for every skill, only that (masterwork tool) exists.

[Tyndmyr]

Look, that's a single +2 that you're quibbling over. It's nice, but it alone is not defining class tier.

No, barbarian is class 4. It fulfills it's role well with a nice selection of magical gear, but is pretty poor at anything outside it's role, and becomes increasingly irrelevant at high levels. If you match that, then by definition, you are tier 4. This is not a high bar for truenamer to hit.

[TurtleKing]

So the bonus to Int from Wishes and Tomes is the same? Shame. Oh well only drops it what by 2 or 3?

[Flickerdart]

18 starting Int + 5 from level ups +5 from tomes + 6 Headband + 3 venerable age = 37 Intelligence, or a +13 modifier. So you're only down by 1 point there, which can be recouped through Human Paragon, if you can spare the three levels.

However, Elf Paragon gives +2 Int, so Gray/Fire Elf into Elf Paragon is +4 Intelligence. If, as Zaq jokingly suggests, you do go half-elf, Half-Elf Paragon gives +2 to any stat and entitles you to enter either Human or Elf Paragon, meaning that you still end up with +4 Intelligence! This way, you get the same +2 bonus as the Illumian, even if the latter can take Enhanced Sigil and you can't.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

18 starting Int + 5 from level ups +5 from tomes + 6 Headband + 3 venerable age = 37 Intelligence, or a +13 modifier. So you're only down by 1 point there, which can be recouped through Human Paragon, if you can spare the three levels.

However, Elf Paragon gives +2 Int, so Gray/Fire Elf into Elf Paragon is +4 Intelligence. If, as Zaq jokingly suggests, you do go half-elf, Half-Elf Paragon gives +2 to any stat and entitles you to enter either Human or Elf Paragon, meaning that you still end up with +4 Intelligence! This way, you get the same +2 bonus as the Illumian, even if the latter can take Enhanced Sigil and you can't.

Half-Elf Paragon is probably the sole reason to play Half-Elf, precisely due to Divided Ancestry (though Elf Paragon kinda blows compared to Human), though the bonus feat you get at level 1 isn't bad either. Persuasion is also nice for UMD and Iaijutsu Focus.

[TurtleKing]

Can taking the Paragon levels get you to around 80 give or take about 5?

[Tyndmyr]

If you open up UMDing wands and such, Guidance of the Avatar will get you what, a +20 to your next check? You most certainly *could* hit 80+ at 20, but it would require a certain degree of op-fu. But then, you could basically slap all the metamagic stuff ever on utterances and just nova off ridiculous stuff.

Note: If you Gate/Quickened Gate every encounter, your DM will likely throw books at you. Consider yourself warned.

[RaggedAngel]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr

Note: If you Gate/Quickened Gate every encounter, your DM will likely throw books at you. Consider yourself warned.

You can't; the Law of Sequence doesn't treat Conjunctive Gate and Quickened Conjunctive Gate as different utterances. You get one Gate a minute, and there's no way around that.

[Tyndmyr]

Originally Posted by RaggedAngel

You can't; the Law of Sequence doesn't treat Conjunctive Gate and Quickened Conjunctive Gate as different utterances. You get one Gate a minute, and there's no way around that.

That's one interpretation of the Law of Sequence, yes. I don't recall anywhere in RAW where it specifies they are treated as the same regardless of metamagic.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by TurtleKing

Can taking the Paragon levels get you to around 80 give or take about 5?

The Paragon levels don't give you very much as a net benefit - +2 Intelligence for three levels of Human Paragon. If you can afford to drop Chameleon levels without losing other skill bonuses, then that +2 with the +3 from age completely recoups your loss from Wish not stacking.

[RaggedAngel]

Originally Posted by Zaq

Greater Seek the Sky: Compared to normal Seek the Sky, it's a speed increase (from 60' to 120') and a maneuverability increase (from good to perfect). The problem, of course, is that 60' and good will usually get you where you need to go . . . but I'd consider taking this utterance anyway, just because you can either let TWO people fly, one with each (gasp!) or chain the utterances, casting one when the other's about to run out (so you can fly for more than a minute at a time, Law of Resistance permitting). The reversed version is strictly worse than the reversed version of the level 3 Seek the Sky, since preventing a target from flying is MUCH better than making them take a couple d6s of falling damage (even 20d6 isn't guaranteed to kill something at level 14, though it will probably be noticed). Shame, really.

I was reading through the Tome of Magic, and I noticed something about Greater Seek the Sky; the reversed version has Duration: Instantaneous, and the first line of the reversed version says:

With this word, you render a flying creature unable to fly.

It goes on to say that the subject immediately falls, but that's more of a clarification rather than the main point.

In short, I think Greater Seek the Sky is actually really, really good. You have to succeed once and you permanently render something unable to fly in any way, and the effect cannot be dispelled. That's pretty awesome.

[Flickerdart]

Or you can read the first sentence as flavour text, and the rest of the entry as the "meat" - that is, the creature instantly falls down, and then the effect's ended.

[Tyndmyr]

Originally Posted by RaggedAngel

I was reading through the Tome of Magic, and I noticed something about Greater Seek the Sky; the reversed version has Duration: Instantaneous, and the first line of the reversed version says:

It goes on to say that the subject immediately falls, but that's more of a clarification rather than the main point.

In short, I think Greater Seek the Sky is actually really, really good. You have to succeed once and you permanently render something unable to fly in any way, and the effect cannot be dispelled. That's pretty awesome.

Oh yeah, it's quite fantastic. A handy, useful buff, since basically everyone needs a flight speed, and a great inversion app.

I actually like the inverted theme. Seems really fluffy somehow, for magic to be applied in such a way.

[RaggedAngel]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Or you can read the first sentence as flavour text, and the rest of the entry as the "meat" - that is, the creature instantly falls down, and then the effect's ended.

You could, but the text is all clearly "rules" text; in WotC books text that is only for flavor is in italics. That doesn't mean that they don't mix up flavor and rules, (ToB, I'm looking at you), but it does mean that anything that is not italicized can be treated as rules text if it has a clear meaning. "Rendered unable to fly" has a pretty clear meaning in the rules.

[mykelyk]

Gate has instantaneous duration, you can spam many of them in a minute.

[RaggedAngel]

Originally Posted by mykelyk

Gate has instantaneous duration, you can spam many of them in a minute.

Gate the spell does indeed have an Instantaneous duration. Conjunctive Gate, the utterance, has a duration of one minute.

[TurtleKing]

Chameleon adds +6 to a stat you can switch around. You would need human, half elf, and elf paragon to equal that.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think you can go half-elf paragon -> human paragon - > chameleon for +10, but at that point you are not really a truenamer.

Does Ruthgar (sp? PRC to be loved by elves) qualify tou as an elf for PRC's or is it just that one dwarf class? if so you could loop through it to go Halfelf, human, and elf paragon then go chameleon for +12. No room for truenamer though, maybe for a really strange gestault character.

[Flickerdart]

Ruathar does not, unfortunately, turn you into an Elf.

[maximus25]

If I wanted to run in a tristalt game, what in addition to Truenamer//Factotum should I pick up? Maybe a melee to supplement it?

[Steward]

I think you should consider a class that benefits from the high-intelligence that a Truenamer requires, such as a Wizard.

[Tyndmyr]

Originally Posted by maximus25

If I wanted to run in a tristalt game, what in addition to Truenamer//Factotum should I pick up? Maybe a melee to supplement it?

Something that either uses or pumps int.

For instance, if you're a grey elf, going elven generalist wizard and popping into elf paragon is fairly helpful.

[Fouredged Sword]

Or you could play up the factotum and go wizard / swiftblade.

Very roguelike, but with powerful spells and abilites, but int focused.

You would get lots of actions every round, and I could see some exploits based on time stop and layering truespeaking / quickened truespeaking. You could potentialy throw out a lot of effects every round.

[tyckspoon]

I think you should consider a class that benefits from the high-intelligence that a Truenamer requires, such as a Wizard.

Being able to Caster Lens/Magic Contraction/Spell Rebirth yourself would be pretty handy, especially if you can get your Truespeak high enough to reliably Quicken them, but otherwise you'd have very little reason to Utter instead of cast a spell aside from maybe saving yourself a spell known on Solid Fog. I'd not really be looking at castery/Int-stacking classes at all in this case (well, maybe a dip into Monk + Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk, 'cause why not) For a third class, I'd want something that stands on its own well.. Warblade, perhaps, which does still benefit from the Int and whose maneuvers should be complementary to Utterances, not completely overshadowing them like a full caster's spells would.

[Fouredged Sword]

A warblade is a very nice choice. You got melee, casting (truespeaking), and skills. All int based.

You can self heal, use random spells (Factotum), and kill stuff. the Truespeaker functions much better when you are only useing it to cast quickened utterances to control the battlefield and self heal.

I would consider a 2 level monk dip still though. Int to ac when unarmored will prevent headaches with truespeaking being SLA's.

[maximus25]

Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword

A warblade is a very nice choice. You got melee, casting (truespeaking), and skills. All int based.

You can self heal, use random spells (Factotum), and kill stuff. the Truespeaker functions much better when you are only useing it to cast quickened utterances to control the battlefield and self heal.

I would consider a 2 level monk dip still though. Int to ac when unarmored will prevent headaches with truespeaking being SLA's.

Sounds good, thanks.

[Fouredged Sword]

In combat truespeaking would bloom late though. I would apply a DPS or self fast-healing and then go for the kill, useing truespeaking to heal after combat to allow for a reckless combat style.

Warblade manuvers should focus on damage. Tiger claw may serve you well.

Swift action economy will be a problem though later in the game. I think there is a warblade stance that allows you to take two a round. I would be prepared to choose every round to ether recover manuvers or use a quickened utterance. If I am right (AFB check me, it may just allow two boosts or something) about the stance that allows two swift actions then two quickened utterances a round will make truenamer really, really useful.

[maximus25]

We are starting at 24th level. So I have a lot to work with. 200 million gold. Epic feats.