In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

[RaggedAngel]

Originally Posted by lunar2

one workaround to the Laws of Suck and Regurgitate is to allow truenamers to research utterances, or learn them off of scrolls, much like a wizard. give them enough variety to work with, and it doesn't really matter all that much if if they can only use a particular utterance once at a time.

A quicker (and better) fix is to just let them cast off of their entire list (only for levels they would normally have, of course.) The problem still remains that the vast majority of utterances suck, are incredibly circumstantial, or are strictly worse than spells/maneuvers/soulmelds/invocations of equivalent level.

[lunar2]

well, yeah. i know that. but still, i remember there was some weird combination of utterances that could kill any non-regenerating monster in the MM without ever touching the dice after rolling initiative, and a few other tricks that worked out really well, if you had access to the right utterances, some of which you'd need to research or get extra in another way. this is at Lv. 20, of course.

[Emperor Tippy]

It would be interesting to see a Truenamer PRC that focuses on the alteration of a Truename to alter reality.

For example, the Truenamer alters their own true name so that they now have the ability to fly.

Instead of modifying the world around you, it's modifying the very definition of "you" that the world works off of permanently.

Let's see, aim for 10th level entrance.

Stuff like an untyped Truespeak bonus (perhaps equal to HD) as you are simply rewritten to remember and speak Truespeak better. Or perfect flight at your base speed. Or fast healing 1. Or DR. Or True Sight. All as Ex abilities of course.

Maybe capstone it with the ability to use Timeless Body as an Immediate action as you reenforce your true name, making yourself more real than reality and thus ignoring any effect for the duration. It's certainly less broken than gate.

Note to self, remember to only advance utterances on 9/10 levels.

[Psyren]

That was supposed to be the idea behind Acolyte of the Ego, and to a lesser extent Disciple of the Word. Yep.

Kyeudo's fix rolls them both into one PrC.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by lunar2

one workaround to the Laws of Suck and Regurgitate is to allow truenamers to research utterances, or learn them off of scrolls, much like a wizard. give them enough variety to work with, and it doesn't really matter all that much if if they can only use a particular utterance once at a time.

That would work pretty well if there were more than a handful of Utterances that weren't terrible to start with.

[speeddemon]

Wow, thanks for making this handbook Zaq, it's made me want to try out the class for the next character I make. Well actually the one after the next game cause in the game my current group is about to run, we're all making characters for one of the other players at the table (we only get to know the person who we're making the character for) and I dont want to make the guy I'm making a character for, who is rather new to RPG's, scared of truenamers forever . While their are not many Utterances that are great I can't wait for the right situations to use stuff like Archer's Eye and Spell Rebirth

[Answerer]

Originally Posted by speeddemon

Wow, thanks for making this handbook Zaq, it's made me want to try out the class for the next character I make.

I'm... not sure that's the thanks that Zaq wanted, heh...

[speeddemon]

I know Zaq may not have wanted to advertise it, but it does make for a very good loremaster type class, and that is something I've wanted to try for some time now. I'm mostly thanking him for the advice on how to build a truenamer (I didn't know about knowledge devotion before this handbook for one of the many important facts I learned about truenaming) that won't be completley terrible. Plus I want to see if I can get the GM to allow me to use this handbook as my masterwork tool .

[Psyren]

If you can't get a homebrew version of the Truenamer approved, at least ask your DM to let you craft that +30 competence item, an item familiar, or both. You'll need all the help you can get.

[willpell]

I have plans to create a variant class called the Truespeaker. (Of course, I have many plans, and little motivation to further them.)

[speeddemon]

I should be able to get a competence item and item familiar from the GM pretty easily, since she's new to GMing and will actually probably be asking me for most rule advice. I don't think the group I'm in is that high in optimization so this class will be a nice way to optimize a character with plenty of flavor without completely outshing everyone else.

[willpell]

"Great, so now we're countering their experience with our ineptitude."

(That's just where my brain went at the idea of treating the Truenamer's narrowness and weakness as a feature rather than a bug.....)

[GenghisDon]

Hi all, thanks for the guide & discussion. I haven't made it past pg 5 yet, but one obvious thought came to mind fairly early: why would anyone think the 2 listed amulets of the silver tongue are an end-all-be all thing?

The class has great troubles, yes, but here is one of the easiest "smoothers out" a DM could do for a player or game including truespeak:

AMULET OF THE SILVER TOGUE
all flavour per TOM pg 263
E bonus Cost caster/creator Level
+1..........100 gp..............1
+2..........400 gp..............2
+3..........900 gp..............3
+4..........1,600 gp...........4
+5..........2,500 gp...........5
+6..........3,600 gp...........6
+7..........4,900 gp...........7
+8..........6,400 gp...........8
+9..........8,100 gp...........9
+10........10,000 gp.........10
+11........12,100 gp.........11
+12.........14,400 gp........12
+13.........16,900 gp........13
+14.........19,600 gp........14
+15.........22,500 gp........15
+16.........25,600 gp........16
+17.........28,900 gp........17
+18.........32,400 gp........18
+19.........36,100 gp........19
+20.........40,000 gp........20

sure, it's a tax, but so are weapons. The warrior's +4 keen, vorpal adamantine scimitar costs 203,315 gp of his 760,000 gp at L20. 40,000 at L20, or even 100 gp at L1, isn't too terrible at all.

[Gandariel]

i don't think there's any need for 20 different ones. +5, +10 and +20 (and maybe +30) will do.

Also, fighters don't use scimitars and don't get vorpal on them (But that's beside the point. I agree that 40k is a small fee at high level)

[GenghisDon]

I disagree, I think the class has enough suckatude built in they ought be uping their amulet pretty much every level.

I'd probably house rule the class to be able to craft that specific item (or other slot, within reason, for +50% cost, or slotless for double cost), right from level one up.

I'm not sure what you are getting at about scimitars...but they are used in my games, although cornball, rediculous, make believe weapon types are all banned.

I'm also well aware I don't actually play 3.5/d20 D&D & have no interest in doing so; RAW is full of trash. DM's need to be garbagemen IMHO.

Still, if some warrior type(s)10/dervish 10 with a pair of +4 keen vorpal scimitars is useless or too feeble to be a L20 character in one's game, well, let's just say I'm glad that's not the case for my players.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

That's just a hilarious misuse of wealth, unless you're in some really oddball party with no way to cast Greater Magic Weapon and Keen Edge, and none of the enemies you fight buff themselves or play intelligently.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by GenghisDon

I disagree, I think the class has enough suckatude built in they ought be uping their amulet pretty much every level.

I'd probably house rule the class to be able to craft that specific item (or other slot, within reason, for +50% cost, or slotless for double cost), right from level one up.

I'm not sure what you are getting at about scimitars...but they are used in my games, although cornball, rediculous, make believe weapon types are all banned.

I'm also well aware I don't actually play 3.5/d20 D&D & have no interest in doing so; RAW is full of trash. DM's need to be garbagemen IMHO.

Still, if some warrior type(s)10/dervish 10 with a pair of +4 keen vorpal scimitars is useless or too feeble to be a L20 character in one's game, well, let's just say I'm glad that's not the case for my players.

You realize Vorpal was modified in 3.5 to only trigger on natural 20's and not any crit, right? It's the next best thing to worthless if you have to spend money on it.

[GenghisDon]

Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow

That's just a hilarious misuse of wealth, unless you're in some really oddball party with no way to cast Greater Magic Weapon and Keen Edge, and none of the enemies you fight buff themselves or play intelligently.

But intelligent foes don't dispel your buffs? LOL.

I'd imagine the party could (& probably did) cast those spells (along with circle of death) making them if desired.

The Glyphstone wrote: "You realize Vorpal was modified in 3.5 to only trigger on natural 20's and not any crit, right? It's the next best thing to worthless if you have to spend money on it."

Yeah. Such a character probably only lops off one head/round in combat.

RAW the keen probably is a waste, but we stack it an improved crit still, as should everyone.

At any rate, let's all just smugly be glad we don't play together & maybe talk about Truenamers?

I think the class is actually quite salvageable, abiet (gasp) needing a great deal of modifications.

[willpell]

Originally Posted by GenghisDon

Yeah. Such a character probably only lops off one head/round in combat.

And how exactly is he making 20 attacks a round, assuming statistically average rolls? Even if he's got a Vorpal in each hand and 20 BAB, that's still only 8 chances each round to roll the 20, and he's probably not hitting on anything but a 20 if he's taking both TWF and iterative penalties (that's assuming that you even get iteratives on your off-hand which I'm not certain is true).

[Lans]

Originally Posted by willpell

And how exactly is he making 20 attacks a round, assuming statistically average rolls? Even if he's got a Vorpal in each hand and 20 BAB, that's still only 8 chances each round to roll the 20, and he's probably not hitting on anything but a 20 if he's taking both TWF and iterative penalties (that's assuming that you even get iteratives on your off-hand which I'm not certain is true).

Haste, flurry, slashing feat that gives an extra attack in exchange for -5 to hit, Rob's Gambit+double hit. + Wolf fang strike and the feat to treat a natural 1 as a 20 if it works with weapons

[Psyren]

1 head/round? You'll be extremely lucky if you get 1 head/encounter. And I'd personally still rather those nat 20s go to saving throws myself.

As far as salvaging the Truenamer, have you seen Kyeudo's Fix? (I pimp it every chance I get, it deserves the publicity.)

[willpell]

Originally Posted by Lans

Haste, flurry, slashing feat that gives an extra attack in exchange for -5 to hit, Rob's Gambit+double hit. + Wolf fang strike and the feat to treat a natural 1 as a 20 if it works with weapons

Which "flurry" is that? Not Flurry of Blows, which only works with special monk weapons.

[RaggedAngel]

Guys, I understand that this discussion has become interesting, but you can create a new thread to talk about it if it's important to you. This is a thread about the Truenamer class, and the discussion here by forum rules must be about Truenamers. Show Zaq a little respect, and keep the discussion about his excellent handbook or your experiences with the class.

[GenghisDon]

Sure, 'tis over & never was interesting to start with, Raggedangel . No disrespect was ever intended towards Zaq.

Thanks for the link, Psyren

[Rhynim]

Sooo, i started playing a true namer a couple weeks ago, thought it looked interesting, argued about many many things with the GM, granted some, denied others, well with the most recent I seem to be denied conjunctive gate, at least the free version, looking at 1k xp a pop for using it now, should I just commit Seppuku and make another character? As far as I was concerned it was a key section of the class, at this point i am wondering if i should just off my self and restart a fresh character.

Looking for some advice on how i could argue it, or if i should give up and call it done.

[willpell]

Gate with its normal XP cost is still Gate. As long as the DM only nerfs it into the Bronze age, rather than Stone as I probably would, it should still give the game a good bending at the very least. And if you suffered through 18 levels of misery (1st doesn't count since TNs are almost good by the standards of that level, prior to their TS DCs beginning to skyrocket) to get to Truenamer 20, you deserve something for your trouble.

[Flickerdart]

Gate in something with nice abilities, order it to fail its next save, then UPD power stones of Mind Switch and Astral Seed, kill yourself, and regenerate as the creature (doing it the other way also works, as Astral Seed explicitly allows you to Mind Switch into someone else's body and then smash the crystal to make it stick).

[rockdeworld]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Gate in something with nice abilities, order it to fail its next save, then UPD power stones of Mind Switch and Astral Seed, kill yourself, and regenerate as the creature.

"So that you have a better race for your Truenamer?"
"...yes. Yes, that is it."

[willpell]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Gate in something with nice abilities, order it to fail its next save

If your GM allows that to count as a legitimate command, he deserves what he gets.

[Zombimode]

Originally Posted by Rhynim

As far as I was concerned it was a key section of the class, at this point i am wondering if i should just off my self and restart a fresh character.

If your regard a class feature you get at level 20 as a key section of a class, then you play a different type of D&D then I do (to borrow an expression by Zaq).

I have currently a level 12 truenamer. He is doing fine. Of course, he doesn't have much in terms of competition: the party members are: a Samurai, a Ninja, a Monk and a Healer, all single classed, all level 12...