Yeah, and it seemed pointlessly metagame (yes, we know you, the player, hate the Hayashi's because theyr'e "goody two shoes", we're not impressed, I'm frankly the opposite) and illogical (why are the Hayashi's worse to him than, say, the Ryuunosoke's? I bet those guys like killing Hollows. Or any other noble family. Aren't all Shinigami the same enemy to him? Why only them? Oh, because Draken himself hates good guy characters).
Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberryman
Necromancia: Path of Retribution
Spoiler
Embodying fiendish vengeance, Talon's necromancia focuses mostly on retribution for attacks that harm her.
Fundamental:Sanguine Spectre
Less an aura and more an augmentation of her hierro, Talon's fundamental increases her strength and hierro as she is wounded. As this happens, she is covered with shimmering, translucent scales.
Lesser:
Spoiler
Claws of the Nosferatu: Talon's hands are coated with blood-red claws that store blood from foes she strikes, healing her own wounds when attacking with them. This healing is slow, however; it takes many strikes to completely regenerate a significant wound. Ghoul's Bloodlust: Talon creates a small vortex (reaching around 5-6 feet) that emanates from her hand, absorbing the health of those she catches in it. Mind's Vengeance: While under a mind-affecting ability (which includes illusions, subtle mind-control, etc), Talon may subconsciously direct the effect at her foe as well. It doesn't remove her effect, but it makes the foe controlling the ability see or feel the exact same illusions, or feel demoralizing or fear effects, where appropriate. Obviously direct mind control cannot be countered, as they would just cancel each other out. Sanguine Cross: Used in retribution to an attack, Talon counters with a bloody cross-slash of reiatsu that deals the same amount of damage that an enemy dealt to her; not immediately, however. They bleed continually until they have suffered the same wound. Wheel of Carnage: Used in retribution to an attack, Talon uses her blood to create a spinning saw that damages anything in front of her. Given it is fueled by blood, the greater she is wounded by an attack, the greater the area and attack power.
Greater:
Spoiler
Deranged Vengeance: For a short period of time, Talon is covered in blood-red scales that increase her durability and strength. However, the transformation loosens her reasoning ability and makes her less able to manipulate her reiatsu, greatly debilitating her cero and other necromancia spells while also setting her into a berserk rage. Her strength increases by double, making her comparable to many brute-strength foes. Furious Smite: In retribution to an attack, Talon bursts outward with a cylindrical blast of energy. The attack power and surface area increases with damage to herself. Mirrored Hatred: Immediately before being struck by a cero, hado, or destructive necromancia effect, Talon may counter with a burst of reiatsu that reflects it back at her foe. This leaves her fairly exhausted for a short period afterward. Sanguinous Twister: Essentially an upgraded version of Ghoul's Bloodlust, Talon creates a wide vortex (stretching 20 feet) that pulls in and saps the health of those caught in the area.
Horrific:
Spoiler
Curse of Linked Death: If Talon dies after imbuing her foe with this curse, which is really just a concentrated dose of her reiatsu, the person is inflicted with a spiritual disease that slowly but surely saps their health until they share Talon's fate. Sufficient will and vigilance can overcome the obstacle the disease presents, but a single moment of weakness can spell doom. The reiatsu disperses from the targeted person after an hour, and Talon may only affect one person with this curse.
Mind's Vengeance and Mirrored Hatred are new. Otherwise, is this ready for addition to her sheet?
Hm.
Would it be fair to say that Mind's Vengeance could be overpowered by someone either sufficiently stronger by default, or in a release when she is not? Also, only true illusions count, yes? For instance and a purely random example, Vicente's Blackout Feathers don't make an illusion of darkness, it's a genuine area of no light. Do those trigger this?
Mirrored Hatred: Does it negate the damage she would take, albeit leaving her fatigued? If so, would a sufficiently powerful attack "leak through" for a bit of damage?
@Callos and Nick: And the blasted woman gets more allies by the day!
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Yeah, and it seemed pointlessly metagame (yes, we know you, the player, hate the Hayashi's because theyr'e "goody two shoes", we're not impressed, I'm frankly the opposite) and illogical (why are the Hayashi's worse to him than, say, the Ryuunosoke's? I bet those guys like killing Hollows. Or any other noble family. Aren't all Shinigami the same enemy to him? Why only them? Oh, because Draken himself hates good guy characters).
This sounds ridiculous to me. His character is evil. Why wouldn't he want to deprive a group of their prized unique abilities? Plus there are tactical reasons. Hayashi family members keep getting placed into their two families and they are more likely to remember their past lives than other souls. Why would he kill people that are more likely to remember their past lives than others the "regular way" when he risks having them being reborn with a strong desire to avenge themselves and being adopted into a family with ample resources to train/enable them to do so?
Last edited by nothingclever : 09-12-2011 at 11:58 AM.
This sounds ridiculous to me. His character is evil. Why wouldn't he want to deprive a group of their prized unique abilities? Plus there are tactical reasons. Hayashi family members keep getting placed into their two families and they are more likely to remember their past lives than other souls. Why would he kill people that are more likely to remember their past lives than others the "regular way" when he risks having them being reborn with a strong desire to avenge themselves and being adopted into a family with ample resources to train/enable them to do so?
But what makes the Hayashis more dangerous than Osamu's family? Or the Watanabes? It smacks of meta-game decision-making.
But what makes the Hayashis more dangerous than Osamu's family? Or the Watanabes? It smacks of meta-game decision-making.
It's not a matter of being dangerous. Geister wants to hurt them, and the easiest way to do that is to make them unable to come back. The Hayashis probably see this as a horrible unspeakable evil. It's not that the Hayashis are dangerous, it's that Geister revels in their pain.
Anyway, Geister is an equal opportunity baddie. He's probablydone just as evil things to other families.
But what makes the Hayashis more dangerous than Osamu's family? Or the Watanabes? It smacks of meta-game decision-making.
I already explained that. Isn't the Hayashi house the only one with members that are more likely to remember their past lives than other people and the only one with a mortal world family equivalent that members are automatically reborn into? I'm not going to read up on the other houses. I shouldn't need to. If they are the same then I guess he should torture them too.
The members can be indoctrinated to hate hollows and trained to fight against them in both mortal and spirit lives back to back and they can retain their motivations from past lives. Family members on average are going to be more supportive of each other and more likely to want to avenge each other when they feel they all have a special connection. How can you not see that they're an above average threat compared to just any noble house that hates hollows with a real passion?
How is it metagame? Geister is evil. He knows certain people "enjoy" the luxury of being more likely to remember their past lives than others and to be reborn/adopted into special families. Why wouldn't he want to rain on their parade?
It's only metagaming if Geister has no reason to know about their unusual qualities.
Last edited by nothingclever : 09-12-2011 at 12:17 PM.
It's not a matter of being dangerous. Geister wants to hurt them, and the easiest way to do that is to make them unable to come back. The Hayashis probably see this as a horrible unspeakable evil. It's not that the Hayashis are dangerous, it's that Geister revels in their pain.
Anyway, Geister is an equal opportunity baddie. He's probablydone just as evil things to other families.
But again, why them and not someone else? That's the core of my point.
That said, it was probably not meant to be taken as fact. Draken would have to weigh in one way or another.
EDIT: NC, that's sort of my point. How would he even know they possess that ability? And as for "indoctrination", the Hayashi's don't have a note that says "we really really hate hollows because we're brainwashed by our family". They don't seem inherently more anti-hollow than other families or shinigami. That's kind of my point. They remember their past life, but that doesn't seem to give them an inherent edge, since they're only remembering their mortal life. I mean, I guess maybe you could say something about a slightly higher proportion of powerful Shinigami...but in our current game, we've only got a couple members of the family as notable Shinigami. So that means the ratio's not high enough to majorly bend the curve.
Last edited by KnightDisciple : 09-12-2011 at 12:15 PM.
But again, why them and not someone else? That's the core of my point.
That said, it was probably not meant to be taken as fact. Draken would have to weigh in one way or another.
Because they're the only ones who would feel quite that much horror and disgust at the whole thing. They're reborn and keep their memories, so death really isn't as much of a problem for them. This pulls them from the cycle entirely, thus keeping their family from ever seeing them again, and warps their body and mind into a horrible shadow of what it once was. The Hayashi's are simply the people who would feel this the most, due to their unique property of remembering past lives.
The main unusual feature of the Hayashi Noble House is that they have a remarkable tendency, at the end of their spiritual lives (whatever the cause of that ending was) to be reincarnated into a particular family in Japan- even more remarkably, this family shares the same family name as the Noble House. The reaction of the Noble House to this is that members never truly leave- when a Hayashi family member dies and is sent on to Soul Society, the Noble House adopts them right back into the House. This has formed a number of their beliefs, given that a not insignificant (although a minority- many Hayashi family members refuse the adoption, and in this case, they are not bothered again, unless they then come to the House of their own free will) of members lived lives that they remember and have carried over beliefs from these lives. The only restriction is that the head of the Noble House is always someone who was born in Soul Society.
Horngeek can correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing suggests remembering their past Shinigami incarnations. The fact that they have the option to not be adopted means they at most remember their Mortal life (and the text doesn't suggest that's absolute).
For instance, I think Izumi's supposedly a former powerful member of the Shinigami family. But she doesn't remember a single thing about it. I mean, she knows she's a Substitute Shinigami, but nothing more than that.
Looping back to the question, I'd imagine they can't remember because the reincarnation memory wipe is an absolute thing. Those souls get a completely fresh start, period.
I'm confused now. Rouga's new aura, the one that Nicklance suggested, is actually just someone using their reiatsu to do this except worse. Since everyone could theoretically do that, what does this Fundamental Aura even do? The previous version at least did something special and different. Also the new version, I think, fits less with Rouga's Aspect of Death. It makes them copy him, it doesn't make them feel leadership. There's a strong difference to me.
Edit: Do we know that Geister hasn't done it to others in the past, and he's just picking the Hayashis now because of some random decision system?
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I'm confused now. Rouga's new aura, the one that Nicklance suggested, is actually just someone using their reiatsu to do this except worse. Since everyone could theoretically do that, what does this Fundamental Aura even do? The previous version at least did something special and different. Also the new version, I think, fits less with Rouga's Aspect of Death. It makes them copy him, it doesn't make them feel leadership. There's a strong difference to me.
Edit: Do we know that Geister hasn't done it to others in the past, and he's just picking the Hayashis now because of some random decision system?
I'm pretty sure it was just supposed to be an offhand comment. In order to show that Geister's E-VILLE! He's just kicking a puppy to keep up his reputation now.
I thought that might be the case but I was looking for a more certain answer.
Anyway, you can always chalk up Geister's actions to him being a jerk like ricarru said.
The big question is how Geister knows about the Hayashi family's special qualities. He has had a zillion years to find out though. Oh yeah, and was it just an off hand comment?
Last edited by nothingclever : 09-12-2011 at 01:21 PM.
I thought that might be the case but I was looking for a more certain answer.
Anyway, you can always chalk up Geister's actions to him being a jerk like ricarru said.
The big question is how Geister knows about the Hayashi family's special qualities. He has had a zillion years to find out though.
He has the memories and knowledge of his drone children right? Capture a Hayashi, make them a drone, get a neat little evil idea.
I'm pretty sure it was just supposed to be an offhand comment. In order to show that Geister's E-VILLE! He's just kicking a puppy to keep up his reputation now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nothingclever
I thought that might be the case but I was looking for a more certain answer.
Anyway, you can always chalk up Geister's actions to him being a jerk like ricarru said.
The big question is how Geister knows about the Hayashi family's special qualities. He has had a zillion years to find out though. Oh yeah, and was it just an off hand comment?
Yes, and I'm saying it was one made in poor taste. I'm sure Draken was trying to be funny. I didn't find the 'offhand comment' funny. I found it petty and mean-spirited, with poor in-world reasoning to back it up. That was kind of my point from the beginning.
Well geez, should we just not allow our villains to engage in sadism? Why are you taking a comment about what a fictional character would do to other fictional characters so seriously?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightDisciple
Oh, because Draken himself hates good guy characters).
Sounds to me like you hate bad guys unless they fit your preferences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightDisciple
I'm sure Draken was trying to be funny. I didn't find the 'offhand comment' funny.
Why do you feel the need to announce that you thought something wasn't funny or in good taste?
Silence doesn't always mean agreement. It can also mean you don't care for something. If you think Draken was just thinking "eh whatever" when he wrote something why don't you just respond with "eh whatever"?
Last edited by nothingclever : 09-12-2011 at 01:41 PM.
Well geez, should we just not allow our villains to engage in sadism? Why are you taking a comment about what a fictional character would do to other fictional characters so seriously?
Maybe due to my beliefs the thought, even fictional, of someone mauling a soul is pretty disturbing.
But the main thing was that it seemed like it was Draken talking. He and Horngeek have occasionally had friction due to their tastes in characters in the past, and the way that was worded it seemed less like "yeah, this is SOP for VG" and more "haha see what I think of your Hayashis!".
Quote:
Originally Posted by nothingclever
Sounds to me like you hate bad guys unless they fit your preferences.
Well, technically, bad guys are there to hate on.
But to address the actual thrust of this comment: There are certain types of villains I'd rather not see appear in this game. The evil candy Callos played in the last one is one such villain. Von Geister casually mauling souls is borderline for me. Is it wrong that there are certain thematic elements I'd rather not have involved in the collective story I'm helping write?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nothingclever
Why do you feel the need to announce that you thought something wasn't funny or in good taste?
Silence doesn't always mean agreement. It can also mean you don't care for something. If you think Draken was just thinking "eh whatever" when he wrote something why don't you just respond with "eh whatever"?
...Because I wanted to say something about it?
I mean, this is no different than you making a comment about Kaito's attitude or anything.
As for "silence doesn't mean agreement", I never said it did. In retrospect, this should have been PMs. Whatever.
Maybe due to my beliefs the thought, even fictional, of someone mauling a soul is pretty disturbing.
But the main thing was that it seemed like it was Draken talking. He and Horngeek have occasionally had friction due to their tastes in characters in the past, and the way that was worded it seemed less like "yeah, this is SOP for VG" and more "haha see what I think of your Hayashis!".
Well, technically, bad guys are there to hate on.
But to address the actual thrust of this comment: There are certain types of villains I'd rather not see appear in this game. The evil candy Callos played in the last one is one such villain. Von Geister casually mauling souls is borderline for me. Is it wrong that there are certain thematic elements I'd rather not have involved in the collective story I'm helping write?
...Because I wanted to say something about it?
I mean, this is no different than you making a comment about Kaito's attitude or anything.
As for "silence doesn't mean agreement", I never said it did. In retrospect, this should have been PMs. Whatever.
I don't hate good guy characters, I just like messing with them.
As to why Von Geister would do that? Simple. It has nothing to do with how the Hayashis can pose a threat. It has nothing to do with if they keep their memories or powers from past reincarnations or whatever.
It is out of spite. It is because he can and because it would hurt the rest of the family emotionally in a very personal manner if/when they found out that the soul of X had simply gone missing, denying Soul Society of potentially powerful shinigami in the future is a bonus.
Never was it stated that he wouldn't do something similar to other families. I have just not been informed of quirky details about any of the other families that would give me the tools for fitting evil poetics.
Either way, it was more of an implication of possibility than anything.
It is also not about Horngeek. He just gave a detail and I found a way to be evil with it. Throw me an idea. I will think of a way to twist it horribly.
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A.)But we're also explicitly going to let them learn how to not do that.
B.)As a group, they don't embrace that, enjoy that, etc. Some may not even realize it happens. Destroying souls gives them no pleasure.
Horngeek can correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing suggests remembering their past Shinigami incarnations. The fact that they have the option to not be adopted means they at most remember their Mortal life (and the text doesn't suggest that's absolute).
For instance, I think Izumi's supposedly a former powerful member of the Shinigami family. But she doesn't remember a single thing about it. I mean, she knows she's a Substitute Shinigami, but nothing more than that.
Looping back to the question, I'd imagine they can't remember because the reincarnation memory wipe is an absolute thing. Those souls get a completely fresh start, period.
This is correct. The transition from Soul Society to Mortal World is a complete memory wipe. Abilities might be able to carry over (although this is one of the most chancy things in the entire Reborn universe, IMO), and Chiyoko would be an example of that. But yeah, their rememberance rate of their lives in Soul Society once they're reborn in the Mortal World is the same as anyone else. i.e. nil.
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revlid
And so it was that Zaeed, Aang, Winry, Ezio, Sadoko and Snow White all set out on their epic journey to destroy The Empire.
God I love Exalted.
Exalted Week Avatar by Kasanip.
Thank you very much!
In any case, Draken, I'm okay with it, as long as you keep in mind that he wouldn't have gotten many souls, to be honest. The Hayashi look after their own when it comes to spiritual matters, in this world and the next, and they'd have specifically tried to protect members of the family as soon as they realised he was going after their family.
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revlid
And so it was that Zaeed, Aang, Winry, Ezio, Sadoko and Snow White all set out on their epic journey to destroy The Empire.
God I love Exalted.
Exalted Week Avatar by Kasanip.
Thank you very much!
In any case, Draken, I'm okay with it, as long as you keep in mind that he wouldn't have gotten many souls, to be honest. The Hayashi look after their own when it comes to spiritual matters, in this world and the next, and they'd have specifically tried to protect members of the family as soon as they realised he was going after their family.
Frankly speaking, I would not have expected more than 2-4 souls to get "caught" in that way. Von Geister would need to know they were Hayashis and be nearby immediately upon death to make a nice little potted plant out of them.
A.)But we're also explicitly going to let them learn how to not do that.
B.)As a group, they don't embrace that, enjoy that, etc. Some may not even realize it happens. Destroying souls gives them no pleasure.
I was saying that in response to Von Geister not having his just desserts. If necessary, someone can destroy his soul forever.
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Is it wrong that there are certain thematic elements I'd rather not have involved in the collective story I'm helping write?
No, but it's sort of wrong to complain about things that are basically inherent to the setting. Souls can be turned into swords. Souls can be destroyed by Quincy arrows. Souls can be eaten by hollows. Souls can be used as fuel for abilities. Geister is the ultimate evil of our setting and you're against him doing his own evil form of soul manipulation even though it's in character and souls are plenty manipulable in this setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightDisciple
...Because I wanted to say something about it?
I mean, this is no different than you making a comment about Kaito's attitude or anything.
Actually it is different. You accused him of being petty and mean spirited and then said you bet he was "just joking."
All I did was point out how I find it funny that you once said you were disappointed that Ken wasn't interacting more with the other guys when Kaito has always given him a hard time and the other two core guys initially were Ken and Kaito's friend Nakahiro.
Last edited by nothingclever : 09-12-2011 at 05:07 PM.
Normal Hollows would have an Aspect of Death, determined by how they died - that's where Arrancars inherit theirs from. This might affect their powers and form, but since weak Hollows can't learn Necromancia, it's not too influential.
As for Vizards (the traditional kind, Shinigami-slash-Hollow), it'd make sense to have one too - afterall, they're dead. In which case it'd be whatever aspect they would've had as Hollows. (Read: whatever killed them.) For the record, I've played Hannibal for a long time with the idea that he does, indeed, have one. Since it doesn't affect its powers, it's not very influential. See if you can guess it, though.
For other Hollow hybrids, it'd depend on whether they've actually died. Sora, for example, did die, if only momentarily - so, he might have one. Others, who knows? If they've somehow inherited their powers from an existing Hollow, they might share an aspect with it.
For everyone but high-tier Arrancars, it's more of a character theme or personality thing than a matter of powers, though.
Ah that's cool. No worries, wasn't asking for the sake of Necromancia, just a theme/personality tie-in thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran
Wow you can tell I was half-asleep when I was making that. Going back to finish it/tidy it up.
Frozen and I are at least working under the assumption that vizards have an aspect of death (Hannibal's being one Genoveva can take) and Frozen's write-up of the hollow life-cycle suggests that menos at least have aspects and suggests regular hollows do as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran
Okay, NOW Aki is done. Opinions and thoughts?
Looks good even if its written when you're half asleep actually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgva8889
I'm confused now. Rouga's new aura, the one that Nicklance suggested, is actually just someone using their reiatsu to do this except worse. Since everyone could theoretically do that, what does this Fundamental Aura even do? The previous version at least did something special and different. Also the new version, I think, fits less with Rouga's Aspect of Death. It makes them copy him, it doesn't make them feel leadership. There's a strong difference to me.
I was trying for a different flavor of leadership, one that isn't inspired by any positive but more of a bullying kind.
I don't think they can actually be turned into swords. You mean the zanpakutou spirit? I always treated those as fragments of the shinigami's own souls and little else.
Edit: Or do you mean blanks? If you mean blanks then yeah, souls can be used for freakin' anything. Even ammo.
Also. I am running on the assumption that shinigami have no such thing as an aspect of death. Vizard could have one, I guess.
But it really is something that should only be relevant to menos class hollows.
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