Young Justice (Spoilers)

[Zevox]

So, am the only one who noticed what they accomplished ? They weren't exactly trying to keep it a mystery there, they showed it outright.

Spoiler

They had stolen that piece of Starro that survived from the Atlantis episode with Black Manta.

Zevox

[slayerx]

Originally Posted by Zevox

New episode:

Spoiler

Honestly though, I'm no longer entirely sure why Doctor Fate is being as obstinate as he is. With Kid Flash and Aqualad it made sense, as neither of them would want to serve as a long-term host for him, and Kid Flash in particular would make a poor host, but Zatanna or Zatarra are another story. Surely he doesn't need to be in control of his host all of the time - if he'd just discuss the matter with them, I'd wager he could get them to agree to bring him out whenever he's needed, as long as he'd allow them their own life in between such instances.

Zevox

Spoiler

Simple. The needs of the many out way the needs of the few. the needs of a single person is not as important as the lives of thousands. With all the crap that goes on in the world on any given day. What logical reason is there for there NOT to be a superhero 24/7. Think of how many superman might save if he never spent any time as Clark; or if billy didn't go to school and just flew around as Captain marvel all day. There is no telling how many crimes and accidents that are missed when a leaguer is off the clock. A Constant vigil is the best way to ensure the peace and order for everyone...

Originally Posted by Devonix

Also shouldn't The Light be actually pissed off at Klarion. Ok sure they got their secret gadget whatsit.

But UM... Doctor Fate is back Full time.

The light really only has themselves as whole to blame
The moment the heroes got their hands on the helmet of fate, doctor fate's return was inevitable. The fact that he has only been active part time is really just part of the league's own desires. At any time when the helmet was used it could have meant the full time return of fate. If they really wanted to prevent doctor fate's return they would have had to make getting that helmet a priority, which it seems they did not.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Zevox

So, am the only one who noticed what they accomplished ? They weren't exactly trying to keep it a mystery there, they showed it outright.

Spoiler

They had stolen that piece of Starro that survived from the Atlantis episode with Black Manta.

Zevox

Spoiler

Oh, was that what it was? I just thought it was a weird purple tentacle deal.

Still, Starro VS Fate? Not really sure who'd win that one, but then I'm not that familiar with their canons.

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally Posted by Zevox

New episode:

Spoiler

Well, that was quite good. Creative way to do a "world without adults" story, and creative solution with Captain Marvel. Also very nice to see Zatanna joining the team fully, I look forward to seeing more of her.

Honestly though, I'm no longer entirely sure why Doctor Fate is being as obstinate as he is. With Kid Flash and Aqualad it made sense, as neither of them would want to serve as a long-term host for him, and Kid Flash in particular would make a poor host, but Zatanna or Zatarra are another story. Surely he doesn't need to be in control of his host all of the time - if he'd just discuss the matter with them, I'd wager he could get them to agree to bring him out whenever he's needed, as long as he'd allow them their own life in between such instances.

Zevox

New episode

Spoiler

That was quite good, and a creative use of Captain Marvel.



Maybe this version of Doctor Fate is just an arse. I mean, I'm no expert on the DCU or anything, and my exposure to him stems only from the other animated versions, but, this version seems to be borderline villain, whether that's normal for him, I dunno. 'Cos, y'know, forcing people to be his body is really kinda evil, frankly. And if he's going to do that, he ought to at least get himself put on one of the bad guys or something, since he's clearly able to completely and perfectly over-write the will of whoever's body, so he should have no problem with maintaining control safely. And even from his practical "world needs me" attitude, it'd give a net plus one hero. Unless he's so arrogant he thinks he's the only one the world needs; in which case, I refer to my earlier "arse" with a strong side-helping of "is actually evil, regardless of what side he's fighting on, or what he thinks he is" and he deserves as good a kicking as the rest of the villains. (And no, being fed-up with being used as a weapon when it suits people is not a valid excuse, were he to try that one...)

[Devonix]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

New episode

Spoiler

That was quite good, and a creative use of Captain Marvel.



Maybe this version of Doctor Fate is just an arse. I mean, I'm no expert on the DCU or anything, and my exposure to him stems only from the other animated versions, but, this version seems to be borderline villain, whether that's normal for him, I dunno. 'Cos, y'know, forcing people to be his body is really kinda evil, frankly. And if he's going to do that, he ought to at least get himself put on one of the bad guys or something, since he's clearly able to completely and perfectly over-write the will of whoever's body, so he should have no problem with maintaining control safely. And even from his practical "world needs me" attitude, it'd give a net plus one hero. Unless he's so arrogant he thinks he's the only one the world needs; in which case, I refer to my earlier "arse" with a strong side-helping of "is actually evil, regardless of what side he's fighting on, or what he thinks he is" and he deserves as good a kicking as the rest of the villains. (And no, being fed-up with being used as a weapon when it suits people is not a valid excuse, were he to try that one...)

Part of the deal with Nabu is that he's not human he's a cosmic being, and sees humanity as sort of this weak and precious thing that needs to be protected and that he's one of the only ones able to fully handle the responsibility.

Nabu's one of the cosmic forces thats allways been there maintaining the balance of the universe. But he can only take control of a willing host you have to let Fate in, though he doesn't have to let you out.

Oh and powers wise Fate > Starro unless the show's nerfed him and buffed Starro.

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally Posted by Devonix

Part of the deal with Nabu is that he's not human he's a cosmic being, and sees humanity as sort of this weak and precious thing that needs to be protected and that he's one of the only ones able to fully handle the responsibility.

Nabu's one of the cosmic forces thats allways been there maintaining the balance of the universe. But he can only take control of a willing host you have to let Fate in, though he doesn't have to let you out.

Oh and powers wise Fate > Starro unless the show's nerfed him and buffed Starro.

So my latter statement stands, really then...! (And it sounds like he's only a dangerous few moral steps away from making that fatal claim that he's "beyond such petty concerns as good and evil", the mere utterance of which irrevocably proves the speaker is, in fact, evil...)

[Devonix]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

So my latter statement stands, really then...! (And it sounds like he's only a dangerous few moral steps away from making that fatal claim that he's "beyond such petty concerns as good and evil", the mere utterance of which irrevocably proves the speaker is, in fact, evil...)

Sort of though when i t gets down to it he cannot make that claim as being beyond good or evil. he's a doesn't have such opinons because he's not a mortal being and cannot take those steps because then he would cease to exist.

The Specter and Nabu had a fight spanning galaxies with each one tossing everything they had into it. Planets shook and it was the stuff of nightmares to those who witnessed it. actually killing Nabu was the whole reason the Specter got slapped down and forcefully bonded to a human host. Fate allways has and allways will exist He's a Universal Constant, and Specter removing him from the equation for a time was a biiiiig no no.

[The Bushranger]

'Good' and 'Evil' actually don't concern Nabu, actually, I believe. He is a Lord of Order, not a Lord of Good.

It just so happens that Order and Good usally coincide (and Chaos/Evil likewise, see also: Klarion).

[Devonix]

Originally Posted by The Bushranger

'Good' and 'Evil' actually don't concern Nabu, actually, I believe. He is a Lord of Order, not a Lord of Good.

It just so happens that Order and Good usally coincide (and Chaos/Evil likewise, see also: Klarion).

Well he's never been shown in the comics to ever aid an evil act just to maintain order so you could say the morality of a host helps in that. which is why such beings need mortal hosts.

[kpenguin]

I suspect Dr. Fate is less powerful in Young Justice than in some other incarnations, if only because the Young Justice verse tends to power down the superhumans and bring them closer in line to original power levels.

While Dr. Fate seems like a trump card, remember that each time he's been used he's been hardly a win button. Fate was losing against Klarion the first time they fought, until Fate exploited the weakness of Klarion's cat (which was more due to Klarion's carelessness than anything else). When Fate appeared during the fight against the Injustice League, he dueled evenly with Wotan, even with a slight disadvantage with Wotan's preperation. And when Fate appears here, he required the help of the rest of the team to pierce Klarion's shield and his bind was quite easily broken by Klarion when all's said and done.

Fate will be more powerful now that he has a proper host, and he's probably more powerful than all of the individual leaguers, but he's not equivalent to all of them on his own. Remember, even when Kent Nelson held the mantle he had to team up with the rest of the Justice Society for the big threats. And Golden Age heroes are, by and large, not as powerful as modern ones.

[Devonix]

Originally Posted by kpenguin

I suspect Dr. Fate is less powerful in Young Justice than in some other incarnations, if only because the Young Justice verse tends to power down the superhumans and bring them closer in line to original power levels.

While Dr. Fate seems like a trump card, remember that each time he's been used he's been hardly a win button. Fate was losing against Klarion the first time they fought, until Fate exploited the weakness of Klarion's cat (which was more due to Klarion's carelessness than anything else). When Fate appeared during the fight against the Injustice League, he dueled evenly with Wotan, even with a slight disadvantage with Wotan's preperation. And when Fate appears here, he required the help of the rest of the team to pierce Klarion's shield and his bind was quite easily broken by Klarion when all's said and done.

Fate will be more powerful now that he has a proper host, and he's probably more powerful than all of the individual leaguers, but he's not equivalent to all of them on his own. Remember, even when Kent Nelson held the mantle he had to team up with the rest of the Justice Society for the big threats. And Golden Age heroes are, by and large, not as powerful as modern ones.

Typically with fate when the Host is in charge he's weaker In the comics with Nabu in control he's shown far more powerful which seems to be how they're leaning.

Also those fights allways had some limiting factor on fate. IE a host body not quite used to magic, not being a fully willing host, or such as in the recent one with Fate's essence trapped between two planes. But yeah I agree he's most likely not as strong as his comics counterpart. But remember Klarion in this continuity is also a Lord of Chaos and as such is up on the same tier.

[Cheesegear]

Very nice use of Billy/Marvel. Although, was Rob Lowe not voicing this episode? It didn't sound like it.

[ThePhantasm]

Hmm, it was not a bad episode, but I felt a bit underwhelmed. I have to admit thinking "sorcerers... again?" and "Dr. Fate... again?" At least now we have a more permanent Dr. Fate around so the helmet won't keep getting passed to and fro. I thought the fight / action sequences were mediocre compared to prior eps.

Spoiler

That said, Zatarra taking Zatanna's place as Dr. Fate was very touching. I also liked Marvel's ability to go back and forth between each dimension... that was cool.

[Devonix]

I would love to see them telling stories about Zatara and remembering the past.

Batman can talk about him searching out to train with him and used the secret identity of John Smith

At the same time Superman can talk about the time he went to train with him using the secret identity of John Smith

And then they can laugh that neither of them knew that the other was training with him and Zatara kept it secret from both.

[The Bushranger]

John Smith? Nah, Batman's alter ego would of course be Matches Malone.

[Devonix]

Originally Posted by The Bushranger

John Smith? Nah, Batman's alter ego would of course be Matches Malone.

Implying that Batman has one alias silly.

But no I would love to DC reference that comic crossover.

Also fun fact people Superman and Zatana both debuted in Action Comics #1

[9mm]

this episode makes me very sad, think meg'an has self confidence issues? whoo boy, Zatana is in a whole nother league.

Also Lord of Order Nabu being a jerk ass is nothing new; he's always been this heartless and uncaring. I expect an epic speech calling him out sometime in the future. Maybe leading to the Fate most people remember, the man who wields both chaos and order together.

[kpenguin]

Hurm. I'm not sure if the Hector Hall Agent-of-Balance Fate is the one most people remember. At least for me, Kent is the Fate that sticks out in my mind.

[9mm]

Originally Posted by kpenguin

Hurm. I'm not sure if the Hector Hall Agent-of-Balance Fate is the one most people remember. At least for me, Kent is the Fate that sticks out in my mind.

True. However, despite the parallels to Zatara's death in the comics, the show has been building up the wearer of the helmet as much as the light conspirisy. I doubt we've seen the last of Fate; and attempts by Zatana to get her dad back. Also did anyone reconise the force bubble girl during the montage of "care for your young'ns" speech?

[slayerx]

Originally Posted by 9mm

Also did anyone reconise the force bubble girl during the montage of "care for your young'ns" speech?

I believe that was Rocket

[Lord Seth]

I wish the series had at least tried some kind of hand wave for how all of the innumerable plane crashes would have been thwarted due to the adults disappearing.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

I wish the series had at least tried some kind of hand wave for how all of the innumerable plane crashes would have been thwarted due to the adults disappearing.

Autopilot? Magical superhero autopilot?

[Aotrs Commander]

I dunno, I think it kinda was better that they didn't. Like the parachutes in 1980s cartoons, it would have felt like far too much of a cop-out had they drawn attention to it, rather than keeping it quietly in the background. (I mean, the casuality rate would have to have been enormous, because I very much doubt that all the children in the world could be rescued by the superheroes. It's very dark, but I have to - for once - say that it is a realistic consequence of a plot that big and heinous.)

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well technically... the planes that crashed would be mostly empty so strictly numeric casualties would be vastly reduced. That said quality over quantity. There's really no way to bring up how this issue without basically making it unacceptable for airing.

That said this episode I think would have been improved by not taking a cop-out, a very good dose of realism you ask me. Not that like they would really do it though.

[Lord Seth]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Well technically... the planes that crashed would be mostly empty so strictly numeric casualties would be vastly reduced. That said quality over quantity. There's really no way to bring up how this issue without basically making it unacceptable for airing.

Some mention of how a bunch of the flying superheroes sprung into action to have the planes land safely would've been a way to do it and make it acceptable for airing.

[Flickerdart]

Regarding the new episode:

Spoiler

That seemed extremely pointless. Who builds flying fortresses capable of freezing over an entire continent just to knock off a 10 year old? Why wasn't there an organ bank closer than across said continent? It seems like the only point of the episode, despite some very minor and heavy-handed character development for Wally, was to show that Hugo Strange is crooked, which we already knew.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Regarding the new episode:

Spoiler

That seemed extremely pointless. Who builds flying fortresses capable of freezing over an entire continent just to knock off a 10 year old? Why wasn't there an organ bank closer than across said continent? It seems like the only point of the episode, despite some very minor and heavy-handed character development for Wally, was to show that Hugo Strange is crooked, which we already knew.

Yeah,

Spoiler

I don't understand why the villains would pour millions of dollars into a simple diversion like that. That plot twist was kinda ridiculous.

The ep was still fun in places though. But not the best.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Some mention of how a bunch of the flying superheroes sprung into action to have the planes land safely would've been a way to do it and make it acceptable for airing.

You. Are. Not. Thinking. It. Through.

There is no one to do this. We've got who... M'gann, Rocket, and some super-vehicles as flight capable. One of which needs M'gann to operate. For hundreds (if not thousands) of aircraft worldwide.

We are also fairly low on who else might be out there and applicable, given the case of Roy, from the source material. I think the only one supportable might be Wonder Girl who has been talked about off screen I understand. We can even infer Supergirl doesn't exist based on her cousin's actions.

The only solution is some variety of A Wizard Did It.
Obviously the adult side with all the adult pilots is just fine.

[slayerx]

Spoiler

I thought it was a really great episode. What i thought they handled really well is the fact that they managed to make me believe TWICE that wally had failed. Now that's some excellent use of tension building.

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Regarding the new episode:

Spoiler

That seemed extremely pointless. Who builds flying fortresses capable of freezing over an entire continent just to knock off a 10 year old? Why wasn't there an organ bank closer than across said continent? It seems like the only point of the episode, despite some very minor and heavy-handed character development for Wally, was to show that Hugo Strange is crooked, which we already knew.

Things to consider

Spoiler

First off this is a Queen we are talking about. Bumping her off would mean bringing an entire country under their fold. An entire country could more than recoup them for their losses.

Second, If they did not use such an elaborate distraction, that heart could have had the escort of actual justice leaguers. Instead of dealing with Kid Flash, they may have been dealing with the real flash, or superman. They might have even had a member or two watching over the hospitol as added protection.

Third, I might also point out that the effects of the fortresses knocked out the zeta tubes, which would have allowed the league to instantly transport the heart in just a few minutes.

And Really not every episode has to have a lasting effect and contribute to the light's end game. I mean like the halloween episode... that didn't have any real point to the larger storyline except for the character develop and the interests that the episode held on its own. This episode is no different. Character development for wally and a fairly well directed story

[The Bushranger]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

I think the only one supportable might be Wonder Girl who has been talked about off screen I understand.

I'm pretty sure Wonder Girl/Cassie Sandmark is supposed to join the team in Season 2. (They wanted her from the start but had a Wonder Woman-version of the Bat-Embargo to deal with.)