Young Justice (Spoilers)

[kpenguin]

Apokolips seemed to provide tech and the Sphere in the first season, five years ago, but the Light referred to this new partner as.. well... new.

Savage, in the season one finale, mentioned something about the Earth taking its rightful place among the cosmos. It doesn't seem unreasonable for him to be making multiple off-world contacts.

As a side note, manipulating the metagene is well in line with the Invasion! comics storyline and the aliens behind it, the ones who were master geneticists looking at human meta potential, was neither the Kroloteans nor the Reach, but the Dominion

[SecondRevan]

Apokolips seemed to provide tech and the Sphere in the first season, five years ago, but the Light referred to this new partner as.. well... new.

That's something I forgot. The Light have some sort of connection to Apokolips, as the Light have been using boom tubes in Bialaya. That is interesting, considering the Light and Intergang don't seem to be allies.

As for Apocalypse, unlikely. They will likely play a major role in the season, but I do'nt think they're present yet. (at rleast not by themselves)

Spoiler

If they follow the comics, Godfrey is an Apokolyptian god

[smuchmuch]

Spoiler

If they follow the comics, Godfrey is an Apokolyptian god

Ah I didn't knew that but that's very interesting.

Originally Posted by kpenguin

Savage, in the season one finale, mentioned something about the Earth taking its rightful place among the cosmos. It doesn't seem unreasonable for him to be making multiple off-world contacts.

More than that, he make sure earth became notorious and even percievd as a threat to a point with the 'sixteen hours' thing.

Actualy, relistening to the episode, it's 'its rightfull place at the center of the cosmos'

And he also said the Light needed the justice league for the 'phase two' of their plans (that being after they were infected so the 'sixteen hours' were already o their way).
And they really wanted a clone of superman at the very least.

And he did mention his absolute belief in the survival of the fittest.
I get the impression the Light play for big stakes here, but ti's not just the world or destroying the justice elague here (mostly because they could have done that easy at the end of the first season.)

They seem to be manipulating different aline races into trying to unlock a metagen that gives human lots of powers. (I mean Neutron was definitively strong)

it's kind of a big stretch and pretty much pure speculation a this point, but it make me seriously wonder if the Light big plan is not

Spoiler

to eventualy atempt to kill (Goad him into invading, use the justice league to kill him. ), possibly usurp Darkseid, just that.

(and possibly turn Earth into a new Apocalypse, might really explain the ash and cinders future'. or their plan blew in their face, quite likely a possibility too when Darkseid is involved).

Frankly would you put Savage or Luthor past that kind of plan

[SecondRevan]

Originally Posted by smuchmuch

Actualy, relistening to the episode, it's 'its rightfull place at the center of the cosmos'

And he also said the Light needed the justice league for the 'phase two' of their plans (that being after they were infected so the 'sixteen hours' were already o their way).
And they really wanted a clone of superman at the very least.

And he did mention his absolute belief in the survival of the fittest.
I get the impression the Light play for big stakes here, but ti's not just the world or destroying the justice elague here (mostly because they could have done that easy at the end of the first season.)

They seem to be manipulating different aline races into trying to unlock a metagen that gives human lots of powers. (I mean Neutron was definitively strong)

it's kind of a big stretch and pretty much pure speculation a this point, but it make me seriously wonder if the Light big plan is not

Spoiler

to eventualy atempt to kill (Goad him into invading, use the justice league to kill him. ), possibly usurp Darkseid, just that.

(and possibly turn Earth into a new Apocalypse, might really explain the ash and cinders future'. or their plan blew in their face, quite likely a possibility too when Darkseid is involved).

Frankly would you put Savage or Luthor past that kind of plan

Spoiler

I don't think the Light want to create an 'ash and cinders' future. They want what they perceive is best for humanity. I also don't think it will be something as simple as 'overthrow Darkseid' They want to do something that will give Earth global power.

I think it will probably be forcing another race to invade (which could end up being Darkseid) and using the metagene to win, then use it as a way to allow humanity to enter the galactic society, and take control (as the metagene makes them more powerful than any other race). The only problem is that I don't know what role the League have in this. Maybe they are planning to sabotage the trial to create an inciting incident for the invasion? But considering Darkseid's probable involvement, that seems unlikely as Darkseid is hardly the person who would be involved at the League's trial.

[slayerx]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

I don't recall Darkseid ever being involved in meta-gene tech though, and I was thinking that the Light's mysterious new partner was somehow connected to Apocalypse. Hmm. Will be interesting to see who it is.

Well based on comicbooks/other tv shows, the light's new partneer is most likely

Spoiler

The Reach who are a race of Aliens who are the true source of Blue Beetle's scarab tech. This is why the krolo's ran when blue beetle showed up; why one of the krolo's claimed to be attacked by the "competitor" (they were attacked by blue beetle early in the episode); and why the light's partner, the one with sportsmaster possessed a similar sonic weapon as blue beetle.

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

What about what's his face from episode 1, Lobo or whatever? Which aliens is he supposed to be associated with?

I would say it was the competitors who wanted to expose the Krolo's so that earth forces would work on getting rid of them.

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

That's something I forgot. The Light have some sort of connection to Apokolips, as the Light have been using boom tubes in Bialaya. That is interesting, considering the Light and Intergang don't seem to be allies.

Well its pretty clear that apocalypse was the light's partner in the first season; that's how they got all that tech. However the intergang episode of season 2 makes me suspect that it's possible that the light and darksied have dropped their alliance which is why the Light has a new partner while darksied continues to work through intergang... though can't be sure; nothing stopping the light from having multiple partners; intergang may have stolen the tech from the light when they left.

[smuchmuch]

Spoiler

I don't think the Light want to create an 'ash and cinders' future. They want what they perceive is best for humanity.

Spoiler

Ah but remember savage words (around ) he does talk about survival of the fitest' and how the league protecting humanity form disaster does hamper it's evolution.
It's quite possible a dystopia is what he percieves to be the best for humaity (and remember we only saw a tiny part of the future, it's quite possible 'ash and cinders' is only a small part of it where the ex neutron and impulse lives while most of the population and the mighty overlords are in a floating city somewhere above; Pretty sure that would sitll be a fututre impulse wouldn't like to return too.)

It's also quite possible they bit on more than they could chew and their plans just turned against them (Neutron and impulse int he future were talking exactly like the people behind the screen were ('crash', 'mode') wich may point out at some sort of alien cultural influence/dominance.

Spoiler

I think it will probably be forcing another race to invade (which could end up being Darkseid)

Spoiler

I think it's the most likely from what we know at the moment. (wich admitedly is not much seeing as were only six episodes in.)

However if Goedfrey is already an Akropolytian, seeing how he seems to be trying to turn people against the JLA, and taking in count dessad himself was in eaisode in first season and so, it's possible the Akropolyitna are already planning an invasion anyway, the Light just making sure they are prepared for it/plan to take advantage of it.

Spoiler

I also don't think it will be something as simple as 'overthrow Darkseid'

Spoiler

Why not ?
Think about it, the Starro plan, boiled down to it's essentials, was pretty simple after all 'create an ultimate mind control tech, take over the league by surprise witht he help of a mole, pave the way for phase 2" it's the details that were pretty elaborate.
I think it might be the same here. Besides if you consider season 1 was part of the overall plan, and the hugeness of the task, I'd say it's not really "that simple"

[kpenguin]

Going to go ahead and drop the spoilers. I think its been long enough...

If I might reiterate the theory I made just after the end of Season One:

Originally Posted by kpenguin

So, running off the fumes of my totally correct prediction as to the identity of the mole, here's my guess as to what The Light's Phase Two is:

Spoiler

Basically, my theory is based on three things

• Next season is going to be about a coalition of alien races invading Earth, with the first indicator being the arrival of the bounty hunter Lobo
• The Light's end goal is to force accelerated evolution and development in humanity .
• The Light sent six members of the League.... somewhere. With what it looks like was Boom Tube, so likely somewhere off world.

I believe that the Light used those six League members for sixteen hours to have them hop around the galaxy attacking alien inhabited planets of different alien civilizations. Their end goal? To incite an alien invasion in the hopes that the stress of fending off the invasion causes human advancement to accelerate and for Earth to "take its place among the cosmos"

This explains why the Light wants the League alive. They don't want the aliens to win, because the aliens actually winning and destroying/subjugating Earth would be bad. So, they keep the League alive, but under their control, to defend Earth and repel invaders.

It also means that the appearance of the Main Man in next season's premiere will likely to bring in at least one Justice Leaguer, dead or alive, to answer for crimes committed while under mind control. Not that he'll say that, precisely.

Of course, with Apokolips involved, you gotta account for Darkseid. The Lord of Apokolips probably has his own angle on things, but I'm not sure what.

And if this really is the Light's plan, then they're playing with fire. Its a very audacious and, well, risky scheme. One with very high stakes for their world.

Now, of course, my prediction about the Light sending the six members off world via boom tube to attack aliens was completely right. I was wrong about why Lobo appeared (he was there to expose the krolos, not to bring in a member of the Justice League), but I believe my theory about what the Light's Phase Two still holds some water.

The Light wants to incite an alien invasion on Earth and force humanity's development to accelerate from the stress. they, of course, want to repel the alien invasion when it comes, not have humanity subjugated or eliminated, which is why Savage wanted the Justice League alive at the end of season one. If the Krolo's competitors and the Light's new partner, likely the Reach, are tampering with humanity's metagene, I suspect the Light is also looking to jumpstart humanity's potential through genetic manipulation as well.

If Impulse and Neutron's bad future is any indication, and if my prediction is true, then the Light bit off more than they could chew. They underestimated the response of the alien invaders, or overestimated humanity's ability to fend them off.

I predict that the Light's partner will betray them and that they will be instrumental to defeating humanity and its metahuman protectors.

[SecondRevan]

Originally Posted by smuchmuch

Spoiler

Ah but remember savage words (around ) he does talk about survival of the fitest' and how the league protecting humanity form disaster does hamper it's evolution.
It's quite possible a dystopia is what he percieves to be the best for humaity (and remember we only saw a tiny part of the future, it's quite possible 'ash and cinders' is only a small part of it where the ex neutron and impulse lives while most of the population and the mighty overlords are in a floating city somewhere above; Pretty sure that would sitll be a fututre impulse wouldn't like to return too.)

It's also quite possible they bit on more than they could chew and their plans just turned against them (Neutron and impulse int he future were talking exactly like the people behind the screen were ('crash', 'mode') wich may point out at some sort of alien cultural influence/dominance.

Spoiler

Even if Savage thinks a dystopia is best for humanity, I can't see the other members agreeing. Why would Lex Luthor or Ra's Al Ghul want to destroy the Earth? I think the future is supposed to show that the Light are out of their league and will mess everything up if they aren't stopped.

Spoiler

I think it's the most likely from what we know at the moment. (wich admitedly is not much seeing as were only six episodes in.)

However if Goedfrey is already an Akropolytian, seeing how he seems to be trying to turn people against the JLA, and taking in count dessad himself was in eaisode in first season and so, it's possible the Akropolyitna are already planning an invasion anyway, the Light just making sure they are prepared for it/plan to take advantage of it.

Spoiler

That's actually a good idea. The Light knew Darkseid was coming, so they started a plan to stop him. To do this, they alert galactic society to the metagene, allowing the Light to gain the technology needed to make the necessary discoveries.

Spoiler

Why not ?
Think about it, the Starro plan, boiled down to it's essentials, was pretty simple after all 'create an ultimate mind control tech, take over the league by surprise witht he help of a mole, pave the way for phase 2" it's the details that were pretty elaborate.
I think it might be the same here. Besides if you consider season 1 was part of the overall plan, and the hugeness of the task, I'd say it's not really "that simple"

Spoiler

The Light didn't take control of the Justice League because they could. They did because they had a goal that required them to do that, at least for 16 hours. If the Light's plan is to overthrow Darkseid, they need a better reason than to simply overthrow him. It has to somehow build on what their goals are. If it is because they know Darkseid is about to attack and want to stop him before he can destroy Earth, that fits, especially if they use it as a staging point to allow Earth to enter galactic politics. But the Light aren't going to attack Darkseid because they can

[The Bushranger]

Originally Posted by smuchmuch

As for Apocalypse, unlikely. They will likely play a major role in the season, but I do'nt think they're present yet. (at rleast not by themselves)

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

If they follow the comics, Godfrey is an Apokolyptian god

Also, while Godfrey is extremely likely but not confirmed to be in league with Darkseid (after all, in the DCAU he seemed to be just a muckraking talk show host and nothing more), we have already explicitly seen an Apokalyptian on Earth-16: Desaad.

[SecondRevan]

Yeah, I had forgotten about Desaad at first, though smuchmuch reminded me.

I have to say, it will be interesting to see what happens if there is a third season, considering that there are few things in the DC Universe that can top Darkseid. This is a guy who, at his most powerful, nearly destroyed the universe by existing

[Flickerdart]

Desaad who?

[ThePhantasm]

I'm beginning to feel that Darkseid will be more of a season 3 villain. Adding him to this season would be almost one villain / side too many.

[slayerx]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Desaad who?

The real creepy cloaked guy who appeared in season one in the episode where the new gods came to visit, superboy learned about the truth about sphere, and the team got psyco analyzed

[SecondRevan]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

I'm beginning to feel that Darkseid will be more of a season 3 villain. Adding him to this season would be almost one villain / side too many.

The only problem with this is that it would make Season 3 very similar to Season 2. And I don't think adding him would cause too many issues, as so far the only villains are the Light and the Reach, and they are currently allied. Darkseid could create a nice three way war

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

The only problem with this is that it would make Season 3 very similar to Season 2.

I don't think so. They are two very different sets of villains. Just because they are both offworlders doesn't mean they'd be exactly the same.

[The Bushranger]

Indeed. Darkseid doesn't invade. He destroys.

[smuchmuch]

I'm beginning to feel that Darkseid will be more of a season 3 villain. Adding him to this season would be almost one villain / side too many.

Possibly but I don't think so. (If Godfreey is Akropolyptian, he appears way too much; between him and intergang with Akropolytan tech reappearing in episode 3, it feels a bit too much to be simple foreshadowing for the next season.)
I think more probable some of the already present villains are going to get eliminated mid/three quarter season to show us the new ones mean buisness. (kinda like the krolo were) it's an old narrative device but still pretty efective when well done.

Indeed. Darkseid doesn't invade. He destroys.

Pretty much every DCAU series having featured him so far disagree. (As well as final crisis, I think ?)
Generaly he's shown invading first and only start with the mass destruction when he encounters too much resistance.

[Rake21]

Originally Posted by The Bushranger

Indeed. Darkseid doesn't invade. He destroys.

Lord Darkseid on conquest:

"They resist. They have hope. Such a pointless novelty. I shall burn their world to ash until the choke on their dead. When they plead for mercy, I will offer none but endless pain. They will learn that hope is a lie, while Darkseid IS."

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

I'm beginning to feel that Darkseid will be more of a season 3 villain. Adding him to this season would be almost one villain / side too many.

As I think it rather evident the Kroloteans are not going to be the Big Bad of the season and the Light may well be working with Apokolips I'm not sure how you get there.

[SecondRevan]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

As I think it rather evident the Kroloteans are not going to be the Big Bad of the season and the Light may well be working with Apokolips I'm not sure how you get there.

The kroloteans are certainly not the big bads but the Reach certainly have that potential. It is very unlikely that the Competitor and the Light's new partner is not the Reach. Therefore Apokolypse has to exist in a story with both the Light and the Reach.

I believe they can fit in, but I understand the Phantasm's concern

[The Bushranger]

Perhaps what happens is that when the Reach gets out of hand, the Light decides it's time to Summon Bigger Fish...

[ThePhantasm]

Here's what I perceive as the problem. Say you guys are right, and the Season 2 host of leading villains includes The Light, Cadmus, the Kroloteans, the Reach or the Dominion, AND on top of all that, Darkseid and Apokalypse. What the heck do you do then for season 3? What sorry band of villains has to take over?

I suspect that while season 1 and 2 provide lots of setup / foreshadowing for Darkseid, he won't be a major villain this season. There's no room. It would be plot overload.

[SecondRevan]

I have a feeling that season 3 is going to have something to do with magic. If not, they could do time travel, especially since Invasion has introduced it.

My issue with Darkseid in season 3 is 'Last season, the Team managed to save Earth from several alien invasions. But now, the Team have a new challenge... yet another alien invasion'

Darkseid in season 3 makes season 3 stale and unchanging. One of a great things about Invasion is how they have evolved the show. Even if you don't like the time skip or some of the changes to characters, you have to appreciate how they have done the whole invasion, creating a plot that is distinct from season 1. But I don't see how you can do Darkseid in Season 3 in a way that isn't repeating Season 2 without devastating the world, which is something I don't think they want to do.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

The kroloteans are certainly not the big bads but the Reach certainly have that potential. It is very unlikely that the Competitor and the Light's new partner is not the Reach. Therefore Apokolypse has to exist in a story with both the Light and the Reach.

I believe they can fit in, but I understand the Phantasm's concern

And I'm sorry for what I may have missed but the Reach are in this because?

I mean obviously Blue Beetle means they exist, and I remember some "Oh Crap Its the Reach" looks, but that's doesn't actually make them involved since they don't exactly have a good rep.

[SecondRevan]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

And I'm sorry for what I may have missed but the Reach are in this because?

I mean obviously Blue Beetle means they exist, and I remember some "Oh Crap Its the Reach" looks, but that's doesn't actually make them involved since they don't exactly have a good rep.

Whenever the Kroloteans see Blue Beetle, they recognise him as 'the Competitor'. As Blue Beetle is wearing the armour of the Reach, the Competitor must be the Reach. This 'Competitor' is also the Light's new 'Partner', and whenever an agent of the 'Competitor/Partner' is shown doing anything, he uses a weapon very similar to Blue Beetle's sonic weapon (destroying the golem, knocking out Batgirl.) With all that foreshadowing, it is hard to see it as anything except the Reach

[kpenguin]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

And I'm sorry for what I may have missed but the Reach are in this because?

I mean obviously Blue Beetle means they exist, and I remember some "Oh Crap Its the Reach" looks, but that's doesn't actually make them involved since they don't exactly have a good rep.

In Alienated, Blue Beetle and Bumblebee, with the help of Bibbo Bibbowski, attempt, and fail, to apprehend a Krolotean.

Later, on the Krolotean base on Malina Island, a Krolotean mentions to another that it saw a Competitor armor attack it and it suspects its Competitor was behind Lobo exposing them in Earthlings. Competitor with big C. The implication is that this was the Krolo who escaped earlier in the episode and that the armor referred to was Blue Beetle.

At the end of the episode, when Black Manta reports to the Light, Vandal Savage mentions their new partner as the Krolotean's competitor. Whether ornot there's a big C or a little c there is unknown, no subtitles, but I think that provides some clue that the Reach are the Krolotean's Competitor and the Light's new partner.

in the next episode, Salvage, we "meet" a mysterious shadowed partner of Sportsmaster. While very little is known of his partner, the silhouette, particularly the shoulders, mildly resemble a bulked up Reach armor and the wave-attack used by the partner to destroy the golem mildly resembles Blue Beetle's sonic blasts.

The evidence is, of course, all circumstantial. And the show has been known to be misleading before. See: Artemis and the Mole. However, there are sufficient clues for me, and others, to suspect the Reach is involved.

[The Bushranger]

You could even say it's not a reach to suspect the Reach.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

My issue with Darkseid in season 3 is 'Last season, the Team managed to save Earth from several alien invasions. But now, the Team have a new challenge... yet another alien invasion'

Well, the series is called "Young Justice: Invasion" now. (Maybe its just this season, but I'm thinking its a name change like JL:Unlimited)

But I think Darkseid is quite qualitatively different than the alien invasions we've seen thus far. On one level, Darkseid is more emphasized as a sort of proto-mythological figure than just an extra-terrestrial. He thinks he is a god, lives on a hell-like world, and has parademons to boot. Not to mention his enemies on New Genesis further the mythological angle. The difference is enough that I doubt any viewers would go, "oh, but we already had an invasion from offworld, see, so this is redundant." I can't see that happening.

And here's the other thing: we already know Darkseid will show up at some point due to the foreshadowing throughout this season and the last one. So either way, he's invading. The only question is, do you have it happen in this already stuffed-to-the-brim season where he and apokalipse might, might be done justice? Or do you hold off until next season? Is low-level redundancy a bigger problem than an over-complicated plot and far too much ground to cover?

I do like the idea of season 3 being magic-focused, but I think we got a lot of that in season 1. Enough that people were complaining about Dr. Fate showing up every other episode...

[SecondRevan]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Well, the series is called "Young Justice: Invasion" now. (Maybe its just this season, but I'm thinking its a name change like JL:Unlimited)

But I think Darkseid is quite qualitatively different than the alien invasions we've seen thus far. On one level, Darkseid is more emphasized as a sort of proto-mythological figure than just an extra-terrestrial. He thinks he is a god, lives on a hell-like world, and has parademons to boot. Not to mention his enemies on New Genesis further the mythological angle. The difference is enough that I doubt any viewers would go, "oh, but we already had an invasion from offworld, see, so this is redundant." I can't see that happening.

And here's the other thing: we already know Darkseid will show up at some point due to the foreshadowing throughout this season and the last one. So either way, he's invading. The only question is, do you have it happen in this already stuffed-to-the-brim season where he and apokalipse might, might be done justice? Or do you hold off until next season? Is low-level redundancy a bigger problem than an over-complicated plot and far too much ground to cover?

I do like the idea of season 3 being magic-focused, but I think we got a lot of that in season 1. Enough that people were complaining about Dr. Fate showing up every other episode...

Darkseid has a great character etc, but is it enough to make a distinct season? They have to somehow fill out at least 20 episodes, if we assume season 3 is as long as season 2. THe only way I can think you could make Darkseid distinct as a villain, instead of repeating 'aliens infiltrate Earth' is to have an actual invasion and make season 3 a war. But if you do that, there is no going back and the setting can never recover. You would have to destroy cities and a lot of the 'normal life' detail will be gone. That won't necessarily be a bad thing, as it will also open up a lot of story telling possibilities, but the question is do Young Justice really want to get rid of the quasi-real world setting they have. Otherwise, it is very unlikely you could write an invasion plot that doesn't bear too many similarities to Invasion.

And I don't think Invasion is overstuffed. In fact, due to the change in how the plot works, it is probably less stuffed than Season 1. Season 1 was introducing new plot points every episode, and very few of them were followed up on until certain episodes bought everything together (not saying this is a bad thing, but that was the structure of Season 1). Season 2 doesn't have that, and instead only has only 3 plotlines that are slowly building, now that the krolotean plotline has been resolved/acted as the prologue to the Reach/Light plotline (the Reach/Light Alliance, Impulse's future and Apokolypse), with a couple of subplots like Red Arrow/Speedy and Aqualad. Considering how the Impulse plotline will feed into every other plotline this season, Darkseid only has to share the stage with the Reach/Light, which is perfectly reasonable.

And I wouldn't say Season 1 had too much magic. It had a fair amount of Doctor Fate and Klarion because it was necessary for the Zatanna subplot, but there is a difference between that and doing a season on magic, especially considering there was also a lot of science and cosmic elements in there as well. In fact, there was very little magic in season that didn't relate to Doctor Fate or Klarion. A season on magic would explore stuff like the Phantom Stranger, the Spectre and Madame Xanadu. I think there is a lot of potential in a magcal season, and it will provide a very distinct season from either season 1 or 2.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

Darkseid has a great character etc, but is it enough to make a distinct season? They have to somehow fill out at least 20 episodes, if we assume season 3 is as long as season 2. The only way I can think you could make Darkseid distinct as a villain, instead of repeating 'aliens infiltrate Earth' is to have an actual invasion and make season 3 a war.

I agree that is indeed a difficulty. I'm not sure Darkseid would need to be the sole villain. I suspect the Light will be around for the full run of the show.

Your point about plot resolution in Invasion is a fair one, and I like your idea overall on a magic-based season. I still can't see them working in Darkseid into this season but perhaps the writers will change my mind once we are further into the season. I can't say they haven't been pleasantly surprising me throughout the run so far.