Young Justice (Spoilers)

[Hopeless]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

I agree that is indeed a difficulty. I'm not sure Darkseid would need to be the sole villain. I suspect the Light will be around for the full run of the show.

Your point about plot resolution in Invasion is a fair one, and I like your idea overall on a magic-based season. I still can't see them working in Darkseid into this season but perhaps the writers will change my mind once we are further into the season. I can't say they haven't been pleasantly surprising me throughout the run so far.

I'd have a clip of him being introduced as the ending scene of the last episode of this season making it clear he's been manipulating behind the scenes so that Young Justice defeats the Lights schemes to prepare for Darkseid's coming in such a way that either they know someone else is involved and only we know who it is or neither side actually knows he's involved and I'm not sure which bit would be scarier!

[smuchmuch]

(Just one thing, for the people who are familiar with the Flash:
I noticed it's implied Kid flash, is what I meant to say and what I alway said despite any quote of the contrary, is less fast than the Flash and apparently impulse too. does that means he's got an inferior version of super speed or it's the way he uses it ?)

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by smuchmuch

(Just one thing, for the people who are familiar with the Flash:
I noticed it's implied Speedy is less fast than the flash and apparently impulse too. does that means he's got an inferior version of super speed or it's the way he uses it ?)

That would be because Speedy doesn't have super speed. Seriously, though, I don't know, someone more comic savvy will have to answer that.

[SecondRevan]

Originally Posted by smuchmuch

(Just one thing, for the people who are familiar with the Flash:
I noticed it's implied Kid flash, is what I meant to say and what I alway said despite any quote of the contrary, is less fast than the Flash and apparently impulse too. does that means he's got an inferior version of super speed or it's the way he uses it ?)

I think it was a choice by the show. In some of the publicity fodder season 1 they mentioned Kid Flash wasn't as powerful as the Flash. Just took them until season 2 to actually show that

[smuchmuch]

Well its pretty clear that apocalypse was the light's partner in the first season; that's how they got all that tech.

Apokolips seemed to provide tech and the Sphere in the first season, five years ago, but the Light referred to this new partner as.. well... new.

(Actualy rewatching, the first season, in 'Bereft', batman implies the sphere crashed on Earth. And the only direct large use of Apocalypse tech is by intergang (in 'Disordered'), wich is one of the few episodes where the last moments doesn't imply a link to the Light. (instead we get superboy getting psychoterapied)

I don't think the Light was ever allied with Akropolys. And it's whatever akropolytian tech (someoen mentioned boom tubes, I don't remember when) they've been using was either reverse engineered from the Sphere or taken/bought from Intergang.)

I think it was a choice by the show. In some of the publicity fodder season 1 they mentioned Kid Flash wasn't as powerful as the Flash. Just took them until season 2 to actually show that

Ah okay.
doesn't make much sense to me (nor that flash superspeed would be geneticaly transmited for that matter) since they're supposed to get their power from an accident (I remember Wally mentioning it in first season; the episode when he put Dr Fate's helmet.), but maybe it's the way the show's hinting there's more to it than that (I mean the whole peisode being called 'bloodlines' and talkign about metagene and all.)

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

I think it was a choice by the show. In some of the publicity fodder season 1 they mentioned Kid Flash wasn't as powerful as the Flash. Just took them until season 2 to actually show that

Actually, they sort of show it in season 1. Back in the episode where Wally had to run that heart cross-country for the transplant it was mentioned that his top speed was just under the speed of sound. I know a few people in this thread commented on that being odd afterward, which is why I remember it. Apparently the Flashes are normally capable of far more than just that, so for those familiar with them, it stood out.

Zevox

[SecondRevan]

Originally Posted by smuchmuch

Ah okay.
doesn't make much sense to me (nor that flash superspeed would be geneticaly transmited for that matter) since they're supposed to get their power from an accident (I remember Wally mentioning it in first season; the episode when he put Dr Fate's helmet.), but maybe it's the way the show's hinting there's more to it than that (I mean the whole peisode being called 'bloodlines' and talkign about metagene and all.)

I think the idea in the normal DC universe is that the Flashes had the genetic potential to be speedsters but the accident was required to activate the metagene. I'm not sure if that is true in either comics or the show, but if so it can explain why Bart inherited it and Wally's is weaker

[Devonix]

Part of it is the Metagene and part of it is the Speedforce. Speedforce abilities are seperate from speedsters having powers from metagene. Wally here doesn't have full access to the Speedforce yet which limits his powers.

Also in the comics when Wally was Kid Flash he had to limit his speed because his powers without speedforce protection were killing him.

[The Bushranger]

Originally Posted by smuchmuch

(Actualy rewatching, the first season, in 'Bereft', batman implies the sphere crashed on Earth.

Batman doesn't know what we do: we were explicitly shown the Sphere arriving via Boom Tube in Biyala.

[otakuryoga]

wow first comment on today's episode?

Spoiler

they got me...they got me good
i was still thinking that aqualad was on a deep cover mission
--right up until he killed Artemis..so much for that theory

and then they turn around and show i WAS right

[ThePhantasm]

Depths:

Spoiler

So Caldur is in fact deep undercover. It made a nice twist, and proved me wrong about him being a villain. I still think having him be a villain would have been more interesting, but this works too I guess. I'm not sure what I think.

Some great lines this ep, including "There's no static on a psychic link!" That one made me laugh out loud.

Having (most) of the old team back in the game was fun to see too. We now know what's up with Superboy and Megaan, and that's good stuff... best part of the ep in fact IMHO. Seems these two characters always get the best development, and I'm looking forward to where they go with this... especially Megaan's new psychic viciousness.

All in all a good ep, but I need to let these plot developments sink in.

[Flickerdart]

Megaan is becoming the party Batman Wizard more and more, down to "the mindrape spell fixes all problems".

[Elrik]

Spoiler

I liked the most recent episodes, but I'm still reeling from the time skip. As a comic book fan, I'm naturally skeptical and worried of sudden change.

I'll admit that the plot twists, such as Aqualad not actually working for Black Manta and Artemis not actually dying in this episode, coupled with all of the other twists, makes me weary. It's a Greg Weisman show thoug, so I guess it's to be expected. I'm also looking forward to the inevitable fight with Apokolips and the Reach.

Additionally, I was convinced Artemis was killed because her comic book counterpart was killed off in a ridiculous way recently, I wouldn't have minded if she died; would've brought alot of tension among the team. Most of them are still convinced she's dead though, except for Aqualad, Nightwing, and Wally, who know she faked it. So there could be some development around that.

Also not a fan of M'gann after her dialogue with Superboy. Here's hoping she sees the error of her ways soon before doing something else questionable. I'm kind of appalled that, if Conner is telling the truth, Miss Martian would be so petty as to invade his mind over a relationship issue.

Also, no Vandal Savage by default makes me dislike an episode. NEEDS MORE SUPER INVULNERABLE CLASSY CAVEMEN!

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Megaan is becoming the party Batman Wizard more and more, down to "the mindrape spell fixes all problems".

I thought Batman (at least in the comics) was against that kind of control tactic; Zatanna used it on him and Dr. Light a few years ago and he didn't take it well, but I guess this is a different universe, and I've missed the last few episodes. I haven't seen him try that kind of stuff in the show yet unless I missed something

[blackspeeker]

About the Artemis thing

Spoiler

Did anyone else feel cheated, when SB said Nightwing was seeing Wally to tell him I teared up a little. And then a minute later that was pulled from me. Well, at least it didnt last a whole season

and I love this Godfrey guy, I hope he is affiliated with darkseid like people say/speculate, it's kind of cool that he would have a guy in his employ that is a 24 hour talking head type.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Two for two on being right this Saturday, admittedly only one is for here.

Originally Posted by blackspeeker

and I love this Godfrey guy, I hope he is affiliated with darkseid like people say/speculate, it's kind of cool that he would have a guy in his employ that is a 24 hour talking head type.

I sometimes forget that most people still don't pop open a tab find out all there is to know about someone.

Seriously its not even a question of how Godfrey is working for Darkseid. He's always worked for Darkseid.

As for being awesome, what can I say Jack Kirby knew what he was doing writing the 4th World.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Elrik

I thought Batman (at least in the comics) was against that kind of control tactic; Zatanna used it on him and Dr. Light a few years ago and he didn't take it well, but I guess this is a different universe, and I've missed the last few episodes. I haven't seen him try that kind of stuff in the show yet unless I missed something

A Batman wizard is called that because they solve all their problems with just the right spell, and since they're a wizard, their spells tend to be disproportionate to the scale of the problem.

[Elrik]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

A Batman wizard is called that because they solve all their problems with just the right spell, and since they're a wizard, their spells tend to be disproportionate to the scale of the problem.

Ah, my mistake.

Additionally, Glorious Godfrey is one of the most annoying New Gods in comics, but he came off as a likeable irritant of a villain so far. Desaad also isn't a cowardly spineless igore, like usual.

[The Bushranger]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Seriously its not even a question of how Godfrey is working for Darkseid. He's always worked for Darkseid.

...except in the DCAU, where he was nothing more than an annoying late-night talk show host. Hence the caution in saying he's for-certain an Apokalypitic Minion on Earth-16 until Word of God says so.

EDIT: Also, nice continuity nod: that's a star sapphire in Carol Ferris' necklace isn't it?

[Mutant Sheep]

And also pink lipstick.

[SecondRevan]

Spoiler

Very good episode. I wasn't surprised that Artemis survived. Not only did all the publicity make me suspicious, but the fact that they had the flash forward to Artemis being declared dead made it certain. Though I have to say, a very good payoff and it will be very interesting to see what happens next. Though they should have explained who exactly Artemis is supposed to be disguised as. Black Manta trusts Kaldur and is a surprisingly good father, but I'd be surprised if he would let Kaldur bring just anyone to the fleet. Is Artemis supposed to pretend to be Kaldur's boyfriend or something.

I have to say I love Tim Curry as Godfrey. He is brilliant. Also good that we saw Nightwing get some action, since he has spent so long as mission control (especially because I thought that was Mal's role). And nice advancement of the Superboy/Miss Martian subplot

I have to say, I like how Lagoon Boy was captured, because it helps build up the risk and show that the team isn't invincible and they can be hurt (especially considering this episode featured Artemis faking death). It also added to Kaldur's story, considering how often double agents like him usually have a habit of escaping difficult decisions like that. But I wish they gave Lagoon Boy a focus episode first. If we knew his character better, we would care more that he has been captured.

...except in the DCAU, where he was nothing more than an annoying late-night talk show host. Hence the caution in saying he's for-certain an Apokalypitic Minion on Earth-16 until Word of God says so.

He may be that in the DCAU, but it seems unlikely that would be the case here. If they wanted to show public distrust against the league, why not use established character Cat Grant instead of introducing Godfrey. Also, he seems to be doing far too much to merely just a talk show host. If he isn't from Apokalypse, I doubt you will get a satisfying payoff to the subplot. Especially considering it doesn't look like any subplot in Invasion except Godfrey is not in some way connected to the main plot.

[The Bushranger]

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

Spoiler

Though they should have explained who exactly Artemis is supposed to be disguised as.

Spoiler

She looked familiar, although I can't place it...

He may be that in the DCAU, but it seems unlikely that would be the case here. If they wanted to show public distrust against the league, why not use established character Cat Grant instead of introducing Godfrey. Also, he seems to be doing far too much to merely just a talk show host. If he isn't from Apokalypse, I doubt you will get a satisfying payoff to the subplot. Especially considering it doesn't look like any subplot in Invasion except Godfrey is not in some way connected to the main plot.

Oh, I completely agree with you there. Just pointing out that we can't say for 100% certainty yet. (And I suspect Grant is supposed to be a more sympathetic figure as a reporter...)

Spoiler

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention: it was nifty seeing Superboy in the classic blue and red.

[blackspeeker]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

I sometimes forget that most people still don't pop open a tab find out all there is to know about someone.

Seriously its not even a question of how Godfrey is working for Darkseid. He's always worked for Darkseid.

As for being awesome, what can I say Jack Kirby knew what he was doing writing the 4th World.

There's no need to jump on me.

Actually I had, thanks for the link anyway, especially since it discredits you a bit since it States when Godfrey makes his appearances in Justice League that isn't confirmed he is affiliated with darkseid within the confines of the show. Although I do believe they're one in the same you don't need to jump on people who aren't experts on comics, don't appear to know anything about comics, or may not agree with you. Although maybe I don't get your sarcasm/humor /whatevs

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

I sometimes forget that most people still don't pop open a tab find out all there is to know about someone.

Yes, many people don't do that. They often have good reasons not to.

Maybe they would prefer to speculate and theorize and experience the show on its own rather than to spoil potential plot twists. There's a number of characters that I, though well versed in a great deal of DC lore, am not overly familiar with - Aqualad, Artemis (actually all the Arrows tbh), Red Tornado. I don't look at the wikis for clues on these characters because I want to be limited to speculating based on clues within the show (which itself doesn't assume its audience is well versed in DC knowledge or wiki-trawlers). I want to be surprised by plot twists.

Sometimes people can lean too heavily on wikipedia like a crutch. I prefer not to use wikipedia that often. I like to learn / experience / enjoy things on my own, as they come, slowly, like people did in the days when wikipedia didn't exist.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, just caught up on the last two episodes after my holiday...

And all I can say is:

Crikey.

I think the tone of this series is darker than the previous DCAU, and yet managed to be triumphantly heroic at the same time.

Damn, they actually really had me going there for a minute! Hats off to the ladies and gentlemen, that was very convincingly done.

I am REALLY coming to like Megan's ruthless streak. It's given her a real edge, and it makes a nice change of pace as I am of the opinion that there is room for gradients between "never kill anyone ever, even if the deserve it" and "the Punisher." Ms M might be erring a bit on the heavy side, but it is at least a bit of a contrast. (Mind you, I'm used to the dictomy of the X-Men's (prior) "X-Men never kill" with "except if it's Wolverine, in which case he'll kill you all the time...")

Her taste in boyfriends is not so good, though... Lagoon Boy is the only member of the team - the whole, expanded team - that I dislike, and I dislike him heavily. Can't say I was sorry to see him get kidnapped.



Also Nick Stokes is the Flash. This is awesome.

[Prime32]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

Her taste in boyfriends is not so good, though... Lagoon Boy is the only member of the team - the whole, expanded team - that I dislike, and I dislike him heavily.

I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be annoying.

[lord_khaine]

I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be annoying.

He is very good at what he is doing.

Besides that, Awesome episode, thats really some quality character development and plot twisting we are seing, i really like whats happening with Megan and Superboy.

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by Prime32

I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be annoying.

If so, they're doing that quite well. He was only in this episode for a few scenes but they still managed to work in several fish puns and "By Neptune's X" lines. Though why they'd want him to be that annoying I cannot fathom. At this point all it has accomplished is making me not care that he got captured.

Anyway, the episode (I had to catch it on youtube this week - woke up too late Saturday, had to work Sunday morning, else I'd have posted sooner). Good to know that they haven't ruined Aqualad's character, though abusing the time skip to make us think that they did isn't anything I'll ever have kind words for either. Also good to learn what's up between Superboy and Miss Martian, though it would have been nice to see how Megan took this much darker turn rather than being informed of it long after the fact this way.

Yeah, even when the episodes are good, as this one certainly was, I just keep getting more reinforcement for my total dislike of the time skip out of them. It's really quite annoying having that hanging over this season . Oh well, we'll see where things go from here I guess.

Oh, I did like that Ferris Air was the company launching that satellite, considering Carrol Ferris' rather close connections to space travel and extraterrestrials. (For those not aware, she's the on-again off-again girlfriend of Green Lantern Hal Jordan, as well as the original Star Sapphire/leader of the new Star Sapphires in the comics.)

Zevox

[SecondRevan]

Originally Posted by Zevox

Yeah, even when the episodes are good, as this one certainly was, I just keep getting more reinforcement for my total dislike of the time skip out of them. It's really quite annoying having that hanging over this season . Oh well, we'll see where things go from here I guess.

Could I ask what your issues with the time skip are? Because I have to say, I love that they did the time skip and feel it was necessary from a narrative standpoint, and that Invasion wouldn't be so strong without it.

On your points about Aqualad and Miss Martian though, even without a time skip they would have pretended that Aqualad was evil. They will have shown him 'turning' evil, but they would never reveal that he was a mole until it was necessary to the plot to reveal that he was the mole, like they have done in Invasion. It would have worked just like how Depth's made us think Artemis had died until the end of the episode, except they wouldn't have revealed it at the end because unlike Artemis' survival, it wasn't necessary to know about it until later.

And we have been shown Miss Martian taking a darker turn. All throughout this season we've seen her mind raping kroloteans etc. The only stuff that disobeyed 'show, don't tell' was when she tried to do it to Superboy

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

Could I ask what your issues with the time skip are?

Everything about it. Because of it, important developments got skipped over and have to be told to us in retrospect (see most of the most interesting parts of the last episode), rather than giving us those stories. A ton of new characters got added to the show all at once rather than being gradually introduced, resulting in a lot of dilution of screen time and very little development for most of them (really, the only new member who has gotten anything like development so far is Blue Beetle; maybe Beast Boy, depending on how much weight you place on the little we got of him in the second episode). Zatanna and Rocket got dumped as a result, the former irritating me because I liked her and was hoping they'd rectify the problem that developed where she did nothing after joining the team in season 1, the latter being annoying because it rendered her completely pointless given she did nothing at all important in her very brief time in season 1.

Also, we still have no idea why Wally and Artemis retired. Unless that was all part of their plan with Aqualad and Nightwing to begin with, but if so why weren't we told in this episode?

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

On your points about Aqualad and Miss Martian though, even without a time skip they would have pretended that Aqualad was evil. They will have shown him 'turning' evil, but they would never reveal that he was a mole until it was necessary to the plot to reveal that he was the mole, like they have done in Invasion.

I would hope not, but frankly even if that were the case, it would still be much better, because seeing him "turn evil" would at least go further towards making it credible than what we got. I seriously thought they had just ruined the character for a while there, which irked me quite a bit since I like Aqualad.

Originally Posted by SecondRevan

And we have been shown Miss Martian taking a darker turn. All throughout this season we've seen her mind raping kroloteans etc. The only stuff that disobeyed 'show, don't tell' was when she tried to do it to Superboy

You missed what I meant. We've seen her abusing her ability a couple of times before, yes, but it's another thing that changed in between seasons. I wanted to see what caused her to take that turn, as it's a pretty drastic shift in her character, especially since it went so far that she'd actually attempt to alter Superboy's memories, which is just downright disturbing and evil.

Zevox

[slayerx]

Originally Posted by Zevox

I would hope not

if they showed us NW and Aqualad formulating this plan from the beginning this whole thing with him being a mole would have been BORING

The best thing i thought that came out of this episode was how it was able to pull me a long... My thought process for this episode...

Spoiler

-Artemis dead? Dark way to start, but they're telegraphing so she's gonna be fine
-Aqualad... wait, could have saved Lagon's life with that move; could he be a mole afterall?
-Holy crud Aqualad just mortally stabbed artemis! too real for him to be faking, he's totally evil
-Okay, okay artemis is "dead", now what de ex machina are they gonna pull to save her
-...
-Oh crud they didn't save her... shippers are gonna be pissed
-It was all a fake out!? they got me! Again...

Ya i'm not the only one who was fooled by all this... a lot of other fans were totally taken in. Despite having enough meta knowledge on how things usually play out they managed to fool my expectations. The acting of the characters and the tension of the scene was all enough to defy my expectations and draw me into the scene. Really, i would not have felt this way if I had I already known Aqualad was a mole...


If fact that's how the writers have been using the timeskip to create a lot of tension and mystery... I am left hanging on how things developed, forced to try and piece together what happened in these past 5 years, and that is providing me with no end to intrigue. Fan speculation on the characters on this series is very high in a large part from those trying to piece together what happened before the show gives us the answer.