That episode was originally going to be the finale for season 2, before they got 10 more episodes. They then expected this episode to be the final one before the last hiatus, instead of Depths (though Depths was another good choice)
It is hilarious how things work out, if frustrating
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Yeah, that's pretty much the story of being a fan of this show. We're on the third or fourth such hiatus now (I've honestly lost count), and they're always frustrating as heck, as they never come at a logical stopping point in the story. As mentioned, this particular one especially, as there seems to be absolutely no logic behind this one.
Zevox
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I did get a chance to watch 210 "Before the Dawn" before it was scrubbed, and considering how it ties to 209 "Darkest" it makes sense to put in on hiatus between them. Think of it sort of like the mid-season break for network T.V. They cut a two-part arc in half so that you have to come back to finish it when the hiatus ends. It's a basic t.v. network strategy, sort of like ending a season of a show with a cliffhanger that you have to pick up when the new season starts. And if they are relaunching DC nation in January like a lot of people in here are suggesting, they'll just premiere it with them. Pulling it last minute was a strategic choice that we would have never known about had it not been for the snafu with itunes. I'm bummed that we won't get anything new until next year however.
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Errrr...not exactly, no, seeing as the show just came off hiatus two episodes prior and the abrupt hiatus was announced before the whole iTunes thing.
This, pretty much. Cartoon network went "Hey guys, Young Justice is doming back in January! Isnt tha cool dood!". On a like, friday. The episode was due saturday. On twitter. Tv planners and guides were not informed, of course. It was literally a day before another episode coming out thats been ready for about a year. And it bot moved three months forward for a reason not yet said. And also, young justice did this about 3 times in the first season and aurhgkefkvlb. The paaain
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Cartoon network went "Hey guys, Young Justice is doming back in January! Isnt tha cool dood!". On a like, friday. The episode was due saturday. On twitter. Tv planners and guides were not informed, of course.
I see. I was unaware that this is what happened. I was unaware that they had pulled this kind of stuff in the past too. Now i'm angry at CN too... And here I was giving them the benefit of the doubt...
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Cartoon Network tweeted it would return in January Saturday afternoon, after hours of the internet raging. It was apparently a very poor attempt at damage control.
Also did anyone actually get to watch the episode, before it was scrubbed off your itunes? Just curious.
Yes. And when you see it you will be even angrier.
Because, see... doing a hiatus NOW makes no sense at all. Doing a hiatus after THAT, especially if they were planning a time skip? THAT makes some degree of sense
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I managed to see it, and it is the perfect episode to enter a hiatus on. Great twist at the end that will make the second half of the season very interesting. And yet CN didn't think it was a good idea to start a hiatus after an episode that would have created heavy speculation on what the ending will mean for the team?
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So after watching a bunch of more episodes....
Meh.
Im seriously bugged by having this sort of "Rebellious kids overcome the stupid adults" thing going.
Especially since the stupid adults are the justice league.
I don't like any of the little snots. They are all this generally single bland line of "Rebellious teen defeating the stupid adults MAAAAAAN" thing going.
With some variation.
Especially since I recently watched the justice league animated series and its GREAT.
I love the Justice league so much, and having them be portrayed as these doofuses is just...annoying.
Its the worf effect. Their supposed to be competent... Somewhere offscreen.
Im also not a fan of the power ballooning.
"Our Martian is like...A BAJILION more times powerful then that old boring martian guy! Shes even got telechenisis! "
The show itself is trying so hard to be HIP and COOL. And EXTREME! And rebellious against those stupid parent NARK people! And trying to focus more on a kid demographic. Thats why the show feels like a halfway teen drama.
And it ends up missing out on the the type of stuff that made the DC animated universe feel so lively and fleshed out.
Its missing the special scenes. The crucial scenes that made JCA so much more then just a zip zap zop show.
You think they are going to rough him up or give him the batglare...But no... Flash just calms him down.
The way the Trickster talks in combination with how flash addresses him makes you really sympathize with the guy. Its such a great break from all the other brutal fighting.
And the show is filled with that kind of stuff.
This show lacks it, and that wouldn't bother me as much if it wasn't so kiddishly rebellious.
Could you give me some examples of the rebellious kids stuff, outside of Red Arrow (and please note that there is a good reason I am excluding Red Arrow. I'm not just trying to restrict your choices)?
Also, I heavily disagree with your idea that the Team is supposed to be better than the Justice League. A key plotline with Superboy in season 1 is that he only has half of Superman's powers, and Kid Flash is no where near as fast as Flash, though it isn't bought up often until Season 2. And with Miss Martian? A big problem with your analysis of her is that you are comparing her to the Justice League Manhunter, not the one on the show. Martian Manhunter has TK just like Miss Martian, and other abilities, like density shifting, that Miss Martian doesn't have until season 2. Miss Martian is a more powerful natural telepath, but they also make it very clear she doesn't have the training that Martian Manhunter has. The only person you could argue is more powerful than their mentor is Aqualad, since he has his sorcery, instead of just punching stuff. Part of the problem is, and this is one of my big criticisms of season 1, that they don't use the Justice League enough. Since the focus is on the Team, we only get to see the Justice League when they are publicly fighting the Injustice League's attack, or the Ice Fortresses. I really wished they at least gave a few episodes where one of the leads could work alongside their mentor.
Young Justice is missing scenes like the one in Flash and Substance. It comes from the fact that JLU is a show about whatever superheroes they wanted it to be for that episode, while Young Justice is a show about a covert ops group. THerefore, the Team is never used in situations like the one in Flash and Substance.
And I would argue that Young Justice has other moment to make up for it. Part of the reason I loved the penultimate episode of season 1 was for one of those moments
Spoiler
Superboy, Miss Martian and Artemis each reveal the secrets they have been keeping, because they didn't know how others would react and how it would affect their relationship with the others. And the rest of the Team don't care, because they are their friends
THere are a couple of other scenes like that throughout the show, or similar stuff where the characters get to shine through. Season 2 has quite a lot of great character moments, actually, usually involving Aqualad in some way.
I agree it is a shame we don't get the sort of moments like that scene in Flash and Substance, in the scene with Batman and Ace in Epilogue, but sadly the show, with its emphasis on covert ops, kind of restricts it. Doesn't make it bad, just means it misses one of the things that makes JLU great
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Last edited by SecondRevan : 11-04-2012 at 03:12 PM.
Could you give me some examples of the rebellious kids stuff, outside of Red Arrow (and please note that there is a good reason I am excluding Red Arrow. I'm not just trying to restrict your choices)?
The Jl always grounding the Team, and then they sneak out and then they end up solving what the JL couldn't do. Worf effect.
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A key plotline with Superboy in season 1 is that he only has half of Superman's powers
Which doesn't matter at the end of the day. Supermans power fluctuates so much that I count this really. As long as he has his power of "Punching" hes good.
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and Kid Flash is no where near as fast as Flash
Which isn't quantifiable. Its just TOLD to you. Not realy acted.
If you see a person going 500 miles an hour and a person going 400 miles an hour, you don't see a difference. Just a Blur.
I saw him using his powers in less creative ways...Does that count?
Also who calls themselves Kid flash? That sort of dooms you to be under somebodies shadow.
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And with Miss Martian? A big problem with your analysis of her is that you are comparing her to the Justice League Manhunter, not the one on the show.
True.
I should try to detach myself more.
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big criticisms of season 1, that they don't use the Justice League enough.
Didn't watch past it.
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Young Justice is missing scenes like the one in Flash and Substance. It comes from the fact that JLU is a show about whatever superheroes they wanted it to be for that episode, while Young Justice is a show about a covert ops group. THerefore, the Team is never used in situations like the one in Flash and Substance.
By Covert you mean "Make our shirts Dark". Seriously after like 10 missions everybody should be eyeing them (The villains I meant).
Its not really "Covert" if its not covert at all.
Also: Why didn't the Justice leage immediately fall On Cadmuses ass? Their explanation didn't realy make sense considering they knew where the 30 stories low base was.
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Spoiler
Superboy, Miss Martian and Artemis each reveal the secrets they have been keeping, because they didn't know how others would react and how it would affect their relationship with the others. And the rest of the Team don't care, because they are their friends
And by moments I meant Quiet smart moments. Or loud smart moments. Or CHILLING moments. Or just impressive moments.
Since I didn't care about the characters (They are generally one note. Or two note at best. They don't feel well rounded) , I didn't care about their team scenes.
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I agree it is a shame we don't get the sort of moments like that scene in Flash and Substance, in the scene with Batman and Ace in Epilogue, but sadly the show, with its emphasis on covert ops, kind of restricts it. Doesn't make it bad, just means it misses one of the things that makes JLU great
I agree. Except its covert ops angle is also terrible. Its so loud and bombastic that the "Covert" aspect is laughable.
Superheroes don't do covert well unless its low power levels.
I don't think anything can top JLU as it did everything at a little bit.
Its characters weren't much fleshed out as they where well rounded and you FELT them. You didn't know everything about them but you FELT what they where about and how they would act.
So Im not as much faulting it for not being like JLU, but for faulting at what it chose to be. Then not making up for it.
Which isn't quantifiable. Its just TOLD to you. Not realy acted.
Except it is, if you'd actually watch the show. At one point, the Flash and Kid Flash are both running away from an explosion, and the Flash actually has to carry his sidekick because that's the only way he doesn't die. He uses the goggles (and Flash doesn't) for the same reason - that his powers aren't as developed - and the ice fortress episode practically revolves around him trying to fill in for Flash with a crappier power.
Nobody is going to spend pilot primetime explaining exactly how their cast is crappier than the secondary cast, and in what ways, and then demonstrating it repeatedly until everyone figures it out.
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The Jl always grounding the Team, and then they sneak out and then they end up solving what the JL couldn't do. Worf effect.
That happened only like twice... first time in the first episode and the second time being when they went to track down red tornado. Nearly every episode they are either acting under orders from the league or taking on actions during their downtime.
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Which doesn't matter at the end of the day. Supermans power fluctuates so much that I count this really. As long as he has his power of "Punching" hes good.
Superboy is not only not as strong as superman, he also lacks the super speed, the flight, the eyes and the breath... really the only powers superboy has is super strength, durability and healing. This is furthar emphasized later in the season when he actually DOES (temporarily) gets superman's abilities and you cna see the instant difference it makes in a fight.
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Which isn't quantifiable. Its just TOLD to you. Not realy acted.
If you see a person going 500 miles an hour and a person going 400 miles an hour, you don't see a difference. Just a Blur.
I saw him using his powers in less creative ways...Does that count?
There's another power that wally lacks; the one that allows flash to vibrate his body so fast that he can move through solid matter. This becomes a problem for Wally when he finds himself trapped like he did when they went up against T.O. Marrow's robots.
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Also who calls themselves Kid flash?
DC comics.
Did you have a problem with the name in teen titans?
He has that name because he was a sidekick... its only when side kicks grow up and become their own heroes that they rename themselves' like red arrow did and what Robin eventually does.
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By Covert you mean "Make our shirts Dark". Seriously after like 10 missions everybody should be eyeing them (The villains I meant).
Its not really "Covert" if its not covert at all.
With their "covert ops" they are not trying to conduct actions behind the backs of the villians; they are trying to conduct actions behind the public. For instance, when they went to Bialya their actions ran the risk of becoming a Public Relations nightmare if the public found out what they were up too; Queen Bee certainly knows they were their, but the rest of thee world has no idea those fights ever even occurred.
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Also: Why didn't the Justice leage immediately fall On Cadmuses ass? Their explanation didn't realy make sense considering they knew where the 30 stories low base was.
maybe for similar reasons as to why they didn't just storm cadmus in JLU. They may no where cadmus is and may no they are up to no good, but unless they can prove it, they can't make a move on a government run organization... which is why they can use a Covert Ops team, since the team has no official connection to the league and thus can take on actions that the league can not
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And by moments I meant Quiet smart moments. Or loud smart moments. Or CHILLING moments. Or just impressive moments.
Since I didn't care about the characters (They are generally one note. Or two note at best. They don't feel well rounded) , I didn't care about their team scenes.
Young Justice has plenty of of those
I mean, in one episode the entire team goes thought a great deal of trauma and in the next episode we get to get a look into how it effected them... one bit I liked was how responded to it; what makes that statement more significant is that in a later episode Batman makes a comment about Robin that in a sense echos what Robin said. And in season 2 you look at the actions Robin makes and you can think back to how he felt in the first season, as it seems like he starts doing what he did not want to do.
There is much more that i'm having trouble where to start listing them. The characters also have slow build ups in the developing relations between them. I also thought the Halloween episode was also fairly chilling when you figure out the one shot villian's origin. They even manage to pull a good death fake out here and there. Hell the season final can be quite a shocker when Vandel Savage makes his big move; and its only made better with the idea that such a big move was only one step of a bigger scheme. The series is filled with this kind of stuff and it can be more intense when you get into season 2 when they are dealing with traitors and secret missions.
Really you can have a lot of faith in the writing since they got Greg Weismen leading this show and he was the man behind Gargoyles and Spectacular Spiderman.
If you don't care about the characters, I won't argue about that with you. That is entirely your opinion, and I will admit that some of the mains only became really interesting later. I didn't care for Aqualad until Season 2 (where all the main characters become a lot more complex).
THough I'm interested by what your problems are with the plot? Nothing I ever saw didn't make sense to me. THere may be unanswered questions, but that's what happens when you subplots to the degree that Young Justice does.
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Of course anyone who sees them will know they are connected to the Justice League, but that isn't the point. There job is to do the stuff that the Justice League, as the public face, can't do, as they are too busy fighting that giant dinosaur that appeared in Manhatten or something. Having a covert team allows the League to do missions without having people complain about why the League aren't X, Y, Z. THey know that Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad aren't on the League, and they don't even know Superboy, Miss Martian and Artemis exist, so they don't have any expectations, freeing them up to do more low key missions. Honestly, the way I see it, people learning about the Team would limit their ability to act, but it wouldn't cause any problems. The only possible controversial thing they have done involves their missions in Bialya, but Queen Bee knows she can't admit that, because that would mean admitting her own crimes
Cadmus is a very different entity in Young Justice than in JLU. In JLU, it was a government conspiracy made to control the Justice League if they go rogue. In Young Justice, like in the comics, it is a genetics lab run by Lex Luthor, nothing more. Unlike JLU, they are a public entity and everyone believes they are legal. Unlike JLU, where they were responsible for several plots against the Justice League, the only villainous thing Cadmus has done is make a bunch of clones for the Light, and all they have to do to hide the evidence of their actions is hide the source DNA. They might even have permission for the 30 basements, especially considering their owner is infamous for his corrupt business practice. Oh, and it isn't an alien army, it is an assortment of genetically modified lifeforms, which are well within Cadmus' role as a genetics lab.
One thing I would suggest when watching Young Justice (and any adaption) is make sure you don't compare it to JLU or the comics or whatever until you have worked out exactly what the differences are, as it is very easy to take a group like Cadmus and make two very different entities which can't be compared. Honestly, the Light are closer to the JLU version of Cadmus than the YJ version
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Of course anyone who sees them will know they are connected to the Justice League, but that isn't the point. There job is to do the stuff that the Justice League, as the public face, can't do, as they are too busy fighting that giant dinosaur that appeared in Manhatten or something.
Again I don't get it. What your implying is a lack of manpower, not anything to do with hidden stuff.
I mean "Justice League stops selling of venom" wouldn't make anybody mad.
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Having a covert team allows the League to do missions without having people complain about why the League aren't X, Y, Z.
Again I don't get it.
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low key missions
Which low key missions? They stuff they do is pretty high key and the Justice league would take a fall anyway if something went wrong/
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Cadmus is a very different entity in Young Justice than in JLU. In JLU, it was a government conspiracy made to control the Justice League if they go rogue.
Yeah. I know. Thats my point
"We where almost killed by a bunch of crazy alien monsters (I call them aliens because dammit I like them as aliens! ())
Cloned, brainwashed and a whole slew of other crazy ****!
They are creating a huge mega army of horribleness!"
On thing leads to another and the the Light crashes faster then a elephant without a parachute.
Again I don't get it. What your implying is a lack of manpower, not anything to do with hidden stuff.
I mean "Justice League stops selling of venom" wouldn't make anybody mad.
Actually at least in the YJ universe Santa Prisca is under Bane's (and later Kobra's) control, I am not sure if they are recognized by international community; but if they are them the Team incursion could make an international scandal.
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Again I don't get it. What your implying is a lack of manpower, not anything to do with hidden stuff.
I mean "Justice League stops selling of venom" wouldn't make anybody mad.
Again I don't get it.
Which low key missions? They stuff they do is pretty high key and the Justice league would take a fall anyway if something went wrong/
I'm not saying lack of manpower. I'm saying the need for a separate team. In this case, the seperate team is made up of sidekicks, but it could just as easily be made out of adult heroes who were accepted into the Team instead of the League.
Also, while people wouldn't have a problem with the Justice League stopping Venom production, they would have a problem with the Justice League invading a nation (this is one of the other moments, like Bialya, where the actions are illegal, but the people in power won't admit it). It might be for a legitimate purpose, but if the Justice League did that, the next thing you know, the JLU version of Cadmus would suddenly appear to make sure htat never happened again. Therefore, they sent the Team in to do recon first (which is a low key mission), to confirm the threat and therefore legitimize the Justice League's actions. The fact that the Team ended up having to blow stuff up was due to unknown information that meant they had to adapt.
Also, by the public wanting to the Justice League to do X, Y, Z, part of that was the political stuff, like Santa Prisca and Bialya. But a large part of that is just looking like they are doing something. If Batman took six leaguers and disappeared to infiltrate Santa Prisca or Bialya, people would complain that the Justice League aren't protecting them, because those Leaguers aren't doing things like patrols. If Batman disappears from Gotham, and isn't on League business (and covert missions don't count as no one knows about them) people will complain Batman is failing everyone.
Therefore, it would be best to have a secret team not made up of Leaguers who don't have to deal with that (and remember, in season 1, the only known sidekicks are Aqualad, Robin, Kid Flash and Rocket, and, as sidekicks as well as non leaguers, people will care a lot less about what they do than what Batman or the Flash does).
Also, on your comment about how none of their missions are low key, they actually are. They may have lots of explosions, but that doesn't mean they aren't low key. None of them are highly public, and many of them have minor starts. If I look through Season 1, the missions given to the Team were
Recon on Santa Prisca
Security Team on AMAZO
Bodyguards of a scientist
Investigation of an Ex-JSA member's disappearance
Tracking down Clayface
Investigation of an energy surge in Bialya
Undercover work in Belle Reve
Investigation of reports of armed animals in India
Attacking the Injustice League (this was major, but it was necessary due to the plan they were using, and out of the public spotlight)
Assisting the Justice League against the ICe Fortresses (Once again, major. But they are backup, and considering the focus is on the Justice League, the nonpublic members of the Team are unlikely to lose cover)
Investigate why the president of Qurac has been turned to Queen Bee's side
Hunt down Sportsmaster
All very low key missions, with a two exceptions, both justified. Nearly all of them involve staying out of sight unless something happens that requires them to act, and being an action show, that usually happens
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Yeah. I know. Thats my point
"We where almost killed by a bunch of crazy alien monsters (I call them aliens because dammit I like them as aliens! ())
Cloned, brainwashed and a whole slew of other crazy ****!
They are creating a huge mega army of horribleness!"
On thing leads to another and the the Light crashes faster then a elephant without a parachute.
They had no idea the Light exists at that point. So what would actually happen would be what happened in the show. THe Justice League arrives, sees everything is wrong and arrests the leadership. You could argue that Cadmus should have been closed down (a minor loss for the Light, as Cadmus had already done the really important thing), but I am willing to overlook that considering what actually happened was pretty reasonable (giving control of Cadmus to Speedy/Red Arrow's uncle, who is trusted by the League).
And anyway, nothing happened to the Light in any significant way by losing Cadmus. THe only people the Light cannot afford to lose are the members themselves, or the few operatives they have who actually know who the Light are. Everything is compartmentalized in a way that losing one thing won't affect everything else. Cadmus was useful, but its primary purpose in the Light's plan had already been achieved. Even Luthor isn't under threat, as he would certainly have made sure he can easily state that Cadmus had gone rogue and say a story about 'It was all my fault for not realising what they were doing and stopping it'.
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A: If the stuff is mostly unnoticed, why would anybody care that its the justice league?
B: If it is noticed, the Justice League gets in trouble anyway. Possibly more for trying to keep it secret (VERY poorly).
C: Who cares that its "Bananaman" fighting Dr: Stickeynote rather then Batman? An if they ask where batman is just tell them "Alternate dimesion" or "Another planet"
The Light:
Did they ask: Who commissioned this? Who funds this? What is this army for?
THOSE are the questions I expected them to ask. They didn't.
Those questions would leed them onto the trail of the light.
And Lex Luthor can bluff away poor healthcare, or a "Terrorist" selling his weapons to Kaznia.
For A and B, I think you were getting confused with what I was saying. I was justifying why the League couldn't do anything publicly. Therefore, they had to do a covert operation, which is why they sent their covert operations squad. And why is the covert operations squad separate from the League? Because they have a different role. You could argue that teh covert squad shouldn't be filled with sidekicks, but the idea the Justice League, who have a very different role in teh superhero community to the Team, should be doing covert ops is wrong. In Season 2, people refuse to join the Justice League, because they believe their services are better on the Team instead, despite being adult and not sidekicks. Both are distinct entities because they each have different roles.
And on C, neither of those tropes about why Batman has disappeared really work in Young Justice. So far, there are no uses of Alternate Dimensions (and I believe the fact that YJ is in the DC universe, unlike JLU, probably means there never will be) And YJ Invasion has shown that Earth has only just (as in season 1 finale) come into prominence on the galactic stage. The Green Lanterns and some of the aliens might leave Earth to do their duties, but the Justice League as an entity have no interaction with other planets. THey can't explain Batman disappearing easily. And, as I said before, the fact remains that Batman, as a Leaguer, has different duties.
But the important thing is the first part. You have two teams, each with different roles. You fill one team with who you want on that team, and fill the other team with who you want one the other
On Cadmus
Are you saying that Lex Luthor can't say 'Cadmus went rogue, and regretfully I did not put enough oversight on the company. What they did was highly wrong, and I am ashamed that I did not provide enough oversight to stop this from happening'. Combine that with the right structuring, and make Cadmus a subsidary of a subsidary of a subsidary or something so it looks reasonable that Luthor could ignore it as he focused on the important stuff, and Luthor could easily hide it. Combine it with the fact that, since Cadmus has abilities to influence minds, it would be very easy to make the people of Cadmus agree to whatever story Luthor wanted to promote... Remember, he isn't trying to bluff away 52 floors of bioweapons, only his involvement, and that is a llot easier to bluff his way out of.
It won't save Cadmus, but the worst that could happen is the Justice League could add it to the very large file of 'evil stuff Lex Luthor did that we can't prove'. And all of that is assuming that Cadmus is connected to Lexcorp, and that Luthor didn't use an army of shell companies or something specifically designed to make it impossible to track it back to him.
And when the League asked who commissioned and funded everything? Once again, teh Light wouldn't leave an obvious trail. Luthor could easily do everything in his power to obscure any paper trail, but considering the people involved int eh Light, it could very easily be funded in a way that doesn't leave a trail.
Also, note that the Cadmus creatures aren't bioweapons, they are designed for labour, which makes a difference
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Re: Young Justice (Spoilers)
At least I've other shows to watch while I wait.
And here I was giving them the benefit of the doubt...
))
