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Old 09-17-2011, 06:17 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
ShneekeyTheLost
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Default Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

Well, if you're reading this, odds are you're interested about Magic of Incarnum. Either you've heard rumors about 'an amazing two level dip', or just wanted to check out this really different way of doing things. I'm here to explain some things, dispel a few myths, and either confirm or deny some rumors.

What is Incarnum?


This comes from the book Magic of Incarnum. The mechanic is as follows:

An incarnum-using class has a given number of soulmelds he can use, which provide various benefits. He can also 'shape' some of them to item slots, which provides additional benefits, at the cost of eating up either a magic item slot or a feat (feat can be used to remove the magic item limitation). The number he can use and shape is dependent on his class level. It's in the relevant class chart.

An incarnum using class has access to ALL soulmelds his class has access to. There's no funny business about 'soulmelds known' or none of that nonsense.

You may only shape soulmelds after 8 hours of rest, much like preparing spells for the day. You may have heard rumors about Incarnum being 'Schrodinger's characters because they can change their class abilities on the fly'. This probably got started somewhere by someone NOT reading this limitation on meldshaping. Or probably got started when someone mentioned how flexible an Incarnum character can be because they can shift around their essentia to change their focus very rapidly.

Mind you, Incarnum characters are still very flexible, but they may NOT change out their soulmelds on the fly.

Only one Soulmeld may be used per chakra slot, however some soulmelds have multiple chakra slots. The exception to this is the funky Totem chakra that the Totemist get. You cannot shape a soulmeld to the Totem chakra, you must shape it elsewhere, then bind it to the Totem chakra.

For example, if I take Girallon Arms as a 2nd level Totemist and bind it to my Totem, I would first have to shape it to my Arm slot, as that is the only one you can shape it to, then bind it to my Totem chakra. That means I could not then shape Riding Bracers, because the arm slot is already taken up by my Girallon Arms soulmeld.

As another example, if I take Girallon Arms and shape it to my Arm slot and bind it to my Totem slot, I can still shape my Totem Avatar, which has several options. However, I cannot bind my Totem Avatar to my Arms to gain Improved Grapple, because it's not shaped there, even though it theoretically can be bound there, due to the Girallon Arms taking up that slot. But I could shape it to my Shoulders and bind it there for an increase in the damage of my natural attacks. Which actually synergizes pretty well with all the natural attacks I just picked up from the Girallon Arms in my totem slot shaped to my arms.

The feat Double Chakra allows you to have two soulmelds in the same slot, and even bound to the same slot. But must be purchased *PER SLOT*.

Meldshaping Class Levels DO NOT STACK. If I have Totemist2/Incarnate6, then I have Meldshaper level 2 for Totemist binds, and Meldshaper level 6 for Incarnate binds. You don't get to add them together.

You are limited to a number of shapes equal to Con-10. Yea, this is hidden away on page 20, Abilities and Meldshapers. That means unless you have a stellar Con score, you won't shaping many melds. Fortunately, Con is the only score a Meldshaper really needs to worry about, so it's probably not going to be a big problem. But it can be an issue in hybrid or dip builds.

Essentia Essentials


An important part about soulmelds is Essentia. All Incarnum classes gain essentia according to their class charts. You can also gain essentia with certain feats found in the book. Certain PrC's also have unique methods of increasing your Essentia pool.

Essentia can be invetsed into Soulmelds so that they can provide an increased benefit. Certain feats, class abilities, items, or racial features may also have essentia invested in them to enhance them. You may invest Essentia as a Swift action. This allows you to shift the focus of your character rapidly, however essentia invested in feats are stuck there until the next time you rest for 8 hours.

You have a cap on the maximum amount of Essentia you may invest in anything, based on your character level. This is where a lot of the legends about Incarnum classes are great multiclassers... because even though you may only have two levels of Totemist, your entire character's set of levels count for purposes of determining how many essentia can go into any given effect. You do *NOT*, however, gain any additional essentia by multiclassing. Therefore, a Totemist2/Barbarian1/Fighter2/Ranger7 might be able to invest up to 3 essentia in any given meldshape, by virtue of being 12th character level, and even be able to invest 4 essentia into his Totem chakra, by virtue of his Totemist2 class ability, he still only has 2 essentia to play with, unless he picked up more via feats.

There is a cute little quirk about essentia, however, in regards to multiclassing and essentia capacity. Some classes grant an essentia capacity bonus, such as Incarnum. However, they only apply to that class's binds. Therefore, an Incarnate6/Totemist2 would have increased soulmeld capacity for anything bound as an Incarnate, or for the Totem chakra when binding as a totemist, but other totemist binds would not be affected by this.

Chakras, Shaping, and how it works

Meldshaping classes also have a column on their chart labeled 'chakra binds'. They also have class abilities which read something like 'Chakra Binds (x and y)'. There's a lot of confusion how they work together. Let's clear up that confusion, and figure out how it works.

First off, the number on the chart tells you how many meldshapes you can *bind*. The first number on the chart 'soulmelds' is how many you can *shape*. You need to shape it to bind it, and you may only bind it where you shape it.

EXCEPTION: If you are a Totemist, you cannot shape anything to your Totem chakra, it has to be shaped elsewhere, then bound to your Totem chakra.

Notice how small that number of binds is? Yea.. that's because binding it can give you some *REALLY* cool nifty tricks. For example, the Crystal Helm. If you just shape it, you get a bonus to resist charms and compulsions. if you invest essentia into it... you get a Deflection bonus to AC. Now that's a pretty dang handy class ability... means not needing a Ring of Protection or finding a Cleric to cast something on you for a Deflection bonus to AC. But wait... bind it to your Crown chakra (one of the first an Incarnate unlocks), and your melee attacks gain the Force descriptor, meaning you never miss incorporeal targets. So it's basically a free +1 equivelant enhancement (ghost touch), in addition to your deflection bonus to AC from your essentia and a bonus on save vs being your enemy's bi... er... pet.

However, such power does come with a price. If you bind a soulmeld to a chakra, you cannot wear a magic item in that slot. So if you have bound your Crystal Helm to your Crown chakra, you cannot then put on and gain use out of a Headband of Intellect.

Mind you, ONLY binding blocks magic item slots. Merely shaping it has no effect. So I could shape my Totem Avatar to my feet, and I could still wear Boots of Speed if I wanted to. As long as I don't bind it there, I'd be good.

The Totem chakra, again, works funky, because the totem chakra doesn't relate to an item equip slot. So if you had Girallon Arms shaped to your arms, and bound to your totem, you could still wear Bracers of Dexterity since it's not bound to Arms, it's bound to Totem.

There's a feat that allows you to bypass this restriction, however it must be purchased *PER SLOT*. So keep this in mind when planning your character's gear and soulmeld selection.

Incarnum Classes


There are two... well, technically there are three, but there are only two worth bothering with... incarnum base classes. Incarnate, and Totemist (Soulborn is the failed attempt at making a paladin-esque meldshaper class, and ended up not only NOT doing a good job, but actually ending up WEAKER than a Paladin).

Incarnate - More melds than you can shake a stick at
Spoiler


Totemist - "What's the scariest thing you ever ran into? Yea, I can do that too"
Spoiler


Soulborn - The Trap

Spoiler


PrC's

Incandescent Champion - Trap

Spoiler


Uses? With all the decent abilities strictly limited to a couple times a day... I got nothing.

Incarnum Blade - Highly situational
Spoiler


Uses: It does have *some* use, I suppose. It's a five level PrC, so at least it doesn't eat too many levels. If you have an Imperious Command build, the Throat chakra might make this worthwhile to go into, perhaps go all the way to double-bind so you can get your improved initiative along with it. Just... don't use this in conjunction with a Meldshaper. They don't play nice.

Ironsoul Forgemaster

Spoiler


Uses: If you want to be a party tank who can have some interesting abilities, there's worse places to go to be able to say 'no'. I'd probably want to back it up with something that gives Mettle, but it's some ways to get some solid defenses to some commonly used attacks.

Necrocarnate - Massive essentia potential, but beware the pitfalls
Spoiler


Uses: You're evil. And you don't do too bad a job of it. You almost ignore the limited essentia through a couple of exceedingly useful abilities, and even expand your capacity even further. This makes for a very suitable Boss Battle

Sapphire Hierarch - Divine/Meldshaper hybrid class + Stick Up Pigu
Spoiler


Uses: If the alignment matches (must be LN for this to work), and you're a Cleric who wants some extra abilities (not being satisfied with being a T1 class already), it can be a way to get some meldshaping without too much of a loss. It really doesn't work too well going the other way, because you lose too many Open Chakra to really consider yourself a Meldshaper with some Cleric backup.

Soulcaster - Meldshaper/Arcane hybrid class. Better than MT, but not by much.

Spoiler


Uses: Give your arcane caster some useful Soulmeld abilities without hurting his spellcasting progression *too* much.

Spinemeld Warrior - Useful, but probably not for the reason you think.
Spoiler


Uses: If your GM doesn't let you normally have access to Magic-Marts, this lets you do it anyways. Also works well with ToB classes, by virtue of how IL is calculated. Probably not worth it to go 7 levels for the Bluesteel Bracers, though.

Totem Rager - You know how I said Incandescent Champion wasn't quite the worst PrC in the book? Guess what, we're here.
Spoiler


Uses: Don't. WhirlingPounceBarian1/Totemist x is in every way superior to this piece of garbage. And that's only because you want the haste and pounce so you don't have to bind Sphinx Claws.

Umbral Disciple - Useful dip if you're wanting Hide in Plain Sight, but don't want the enormous feat tax Shadowdancer demands. But beware the traps, young padawan.
Spoiler


Uses: 3 level dip for concealment and HiPS with relatively low prerequisites. But for the love of Pun-Pun... stop there. Please.

Witchborn Binder - Another failed attempt at a wonderful archetype
Spoiler


Uses: one-level dip for a Totemist if you want Detect Magic and invest essentia into your saving throws. Other than that... big massive trap that fails at what it is suppose to do.

Soul Manifester - Psi-incarnum 'gish'.
Spoiler


Good for making a different sort of King of Smack, I suppose. Not bad for imping some Meldshaping into your psionic build, anyways.

The Debates

As with any rule book published by WoTC, there's a few... ambiguous interpretations, let's say... inherent in the rules. I'm not going to stand out and state which side I'm on, but attempt to portray each side equally so you and your GM can come to an agreement.

Open x Chakra

Side 1 - the most restrictive interpretation: Basically, it opens the chakra, but unless you already HAVE binds, it's completely worthless. This means you actually need levels in a Meldshaper class in order to bind anything, despite the open chakra. All it does is grant you access to a chakra slot, not the ability to bind there.

Side 2 - a more liberal interpretation: It lets you bind to the chakra in question as well. Thus, if you picked up Open least Chakra (Crown), you could bind something to the Crown chakra separately from your other binds. Thus a level 6 Totemist would purchase this feat for the Hand chakra, and can then bind Sphinx Claws there, in addition to his Totem Bind and one other bind of choice.

Side 3 - the most liberal interpretation: You get a free bind with your open slot, but it doesn't need to be in that slot. Yea... I try to be impartial, but I just don't get this one. I don't see how opening up your hand chakra can let you bind something in your shoulder slot.

The Binds


Okay, so what CAN you do with it? Well, here is a good start.

Totemist Totem binds by slot they are shaped in can be found here

Here is a post containing soulmelds categorized by class and slot.
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Old 09-17-2011, 06:31 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Lateral
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

Nice! This actually cleared up some questions about Incarnum that I didn't actually know I had. Thanks.
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Old 09-17-2011, 08:48 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

It's good for what it covers. You don't seem interested in a meld by meld analysis of options, which is fine. It's probably worth noting in your multiclass section that class features which increase essentia capacity only apply to soulmelds from that class: an Incarnate 6/Totemist does not get the Incarnate bonus to essentia capacity to Totemist soulmelds. This rule is hidden on page 20, in the class section but before the classes.

You could talk about the argument about Open X Chakra: the least beneficial reading of the feats is that they open a chakra but do not provide an extra bind so that they are useless without at least 2 levels of Incarnate or Totemist to provide one bind. Another reading gives the ability to bind a soulmeld to that chakra independent of a class progression, which is the interpretation I prefer. The most permissive reading would open a chakra and offer +1 binds, which I feel goes against the spirit of the feat: Open Least Chakra: Hands shouldn't let you bind something to your shoulders when you didn't have the binds needed before, generally.

You could mention Double Chakra as an exception to "one soulmeld per chakra".

Did you want to talk about PrC's?
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Old 09-17-2011, 09:36 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
ShneekeyTheLost
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
It's good for what it covers. You don't seem interested in a meld by meld analysis of options, which is fine.
Thanks, I appreciate that. This is just a 'basic incarnum mechanics' thread, because the book was so dang confusing. I may do another post with a meld by meld analysis.
Quote:
It's probably worth noting in your multiclass section that class features which increase essentia capacity only apply to soulmelds from that class: an Incarnate 6/Totemist does not get the Incarnate bonus to essentia capacity to Totemist soulmelds. This rule is hidden on page 20, in the class section but before the classes.
Done.

Quote:
You could talk about the argument about Open X Chakra: the least beneficial reading of the feats is that they open a chakra but do not provide an extra bind so that they are useless without at least 2 levels of Incarnate or Totemist to provide one bind. Another reading gives the ability to bind a soulmeld to that chakra independent of a class progression, which is the interpretation I prefer. The most permissive reading would open a chakra and offer +1 binds, which I feel goes against the spirit of the feat: Open Least Chakra: Hands shouldn't let you bind something to your shoulders when you didn't have the binds needed before, generally.
Done

Quote:
You could mention Double Chakra as an exception to "one soulmeld per chakra".
Done

Quote:
Did you want to talk about PrC's?
Erff.... I suppose I should, since most of 'em are traps.
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Old 09-17-2011, 10:48 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

Obligatory link to Person_man's soulborn fix?

This should be snap-acceptable to any DM who understands ANYTHING about MoI.

It's worth mentioning for someone who'd like to use the SB fluff and wishes they weren't unplayable.
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Old 09-18-2011, 12:04 AM   Top  -  End  -  #6
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

Quote:
Open x Chakra

Side 1 - the most restrictive interpretation: Basically, it opens the chakra, but unless you already HAVE binds, it's completely worthless. This means you actually need levels in a Meldshaper class in order to bind anything, despite the open chakra. All it does is grant you access to a chakra slot, not the ability to bind there.
This was supported by CustServ back when the original Soulborn Handbook was up on Gleemax (it's since been lost to time and space, but probably not Google).

Quote:
Side 2 - a more liberal interpretation: It lets you bind to the chakra in question as well. Thus, if you picked up Open least Chakra (Crown), you could bind something to the Crown chakra separately from your other binds. Thus a level 6 Totemist would purchase this feat for the Hand chakra, and can then bind Sphinx Claws there, in addition to his Totem Bind and one other bind of choice.
This is supported by the book itself. See CMoI page 108, last sentence in column 1. CustServ is filled with people who have never read the books in their lives, and just ask someone who DMs regularly, so this may be the actual intent behind the feats.

Quote:
\Side 3 - the most liberal interpretation: You get a free bind with your open slot, but it doesn't need to be in that slot. Yea... I try to be impartial, but I just don't get this one. I don't see how opening up your hand chakra can let you bind something in your shoulder slot.
Likewise, it's supported by 1 line. However this is a very poor interpretation since it requires you to completely ignore a word in the feat itself.

Quote:
Essentia from multiple classes do not stack. If you have Totemist2/Incarnate6, then you have 2 essentia to spend on Totemist melds, and 6 essentia to spend on Incarnate melds. Bonus essentia from feats or other sources... gets complicated. Double check with and come to an agreement with your GM about how it works.
Actually, that character would have a flat 8 essentia. The pools do not distinguish between classes. See page 19, paragraph 1 of column 2.

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Old 09-18-2011, 12:58 AM   Top  -  End  -  #7
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

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Originally Posted by Big Fau View Post
Actually, that character would have a flat 8 essentia. The pools do not distinguish between classes. See page 19, paragraph 1 of column 2.
Actually, that is the phraseology which describes how class-based essentia and non-class based essentia (such as racial and feat-obtained) interact. The correct cite should be Page 20, 1st-3rd paragraphs of column 1.

Having said that, updating to reflect actual relationships.
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Old 09-18-2011, 01:05 AM   Top  -  End  -  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
Thanks, I appreciate that. This is just a 'basic incarnum mechanics' thread, because the book was so dang confusing. I may do another post with a meld by meld analysis.
Want me to repost my meld-by-meld? I've gotten a good deal of the Totemist done already, and the organization is a lot better than the book's.
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Old 09-18-2011, 01:15 AM   Top  -  End  -  #9
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Want me to repost my meld-by-meld? I've gotten a good deal of the Totemist done already, and the organization is a lot better than the book's.
Oh... that would be quite phenomonal. Or rather, link it, save the copypasta, and I'll make sure to link, highlight, bold, center, and "READ THIS NOW" in glowing neon letters around it.

Well, maybe not all that, but... well, you get the idea.

Moreso if it actually lists what it does when you BIND it to a given chakra. All the list did in the book was say what it did when you shaped it... which of course never changed depending on where you shaped it. If it had, instead, told you what it did when you BOUND it to a given chakra, it would make a much more useful tool.
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Old 09-18-2011, 03:19 AM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Godskook
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

I'm still working on it, but here's the thread. Since that kinda died off other than me, I guess I'll just start posting the meld lists here then.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214858
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Old 09-18-2011, 04:02 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
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Quote:
Only one Soulmeld may be used per chakra slot, however some soulmelds have multiple chakra slots. The exception to this is the funky Totem chakra that the Incarnum get. You cannot shape a soulmeld to the Totem chakra, you must shape it elsewhere, then bind it to the Totem chakra.
This was kinda a confusing read. I assumed it was a typo, as that doesn't make any sense, but...yea. Similarly, in the Totemist section on only being able to bind one thing to the Totem, you mention binding Girallon Arms to the "Chakra", not specifying which one.

As far as the soulborn bit, I'd like to note that open chakra/shape soulmeld aren't fighter bonus feats, which you seem to suggest they are in that section.

Just a few things you'd probably want to clean up

Edit: Also, thank for giving me a resource to show to everyone when their inevitable "what do I want to play" question gets answered with "PLAY SOME INCARNUM."
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Old 09-18-2011, 04:46 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
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This was kinda a confusing read. I assumed it was a typo, as that doesn't make any sense, but...yea. Similarly, in the Totemist section on only being able to bind one thing to the Totem, you mention binding Girallon Arms to the "Chakra", not specifying which one.
Yeah, he's talking about Totemist there. And Girallon Arms can only be bound to two Chakras. Your Totem and your Arms.
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Old 09-18-2011, 06:54 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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For my personal reference I made a list of all of the soulmeld effects for binding also. It's in a text format right now, but I think I could make a chart out of it w/o too much trouble if that would be helpful.
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Old 09-18-2011, 01:35 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Yeah, he's talking about Totemist there. And Girallon Arms can only be bound to two Chakras. Your Totem and your Arms.
Fix'd typo. I'm working on a list of binds by class and slot.
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Old 09-18-2011, 01:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Fix'd typo. I'm working on a list of binds by class and slot.
Did you check the stuff I put in the other thread?
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Old 09-18-2011, 01:45 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Did you check the stuff I put in the other thread?
I saw the totem bind chart, and some of the Totemist binds by slot.
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Old 09-18-2011, 01:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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Just got Magic of Incarnum recently. This is very helpful!
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Old 09-18-2011, 01:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
I saw the totem bind chart, and some of the Totemist binds by slot.
Is that what you're looking for(and thus, do you want me to at least finish Totemist), or are you doing your own?
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Old 09-18-2011, 02:20 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
ShneekeyTheLost
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

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Is that what you're looking for(and thus, do you want me to at least finish Totemist), or are you doing your own?
Well, it's certainly one hell of a start, but ultimately, I'd like to have both incarnate and totemist soulmelds listed by bind slot. It's... a fairly work-intensive project, but hey, I guess that's what I've gotten myself into.
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Old 09-18-2011, 02:24 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

I hate to nitpick, but I was with you until the Soulborn part, then you lost me. You're right that the Soulborn sucks, but the justifications are a stretch (and this is a case you really don't need to stretch to make).

The Soulborn does get some really nice soulmelds - Thunderstep boots' sonic damage is useful for pouncers, and their stun effect would be downright nasty with meaningful ML or DCs; Mauling Gauntlets would be handy on a better platform (on an Incarnate, they could be +16 to trip/unarmed damage); Fearsome Mask is a free action mass-Shaken, which would be amazing for fear-stacking builds if it didn't have to deal with the Soulborn's abysmal shaper level or DCs. It's the class itself that makes the melds awful.

Your examples of Fighters out-meldshaping Soulborns doesn't really work because the Fighter can't actually out-meldshape Soulborns. Even houseruling the Fighter to allow its feats to advance Meldshaping, it would take 8 feats to match the Soulborn's shapes and binds, and 13 more to match its essentia; the Fighter isn't even in the ballpark. The Incarnum 2/Fighter 18 example also neglects essentia difference. Essentia matters - it's why Bonus Essentia is featured in nearly every meldshaper build.

A Meldshaping class being better than the Fighter at Meldshaping is hardly redeeming, but it does make your argument against the Soulborn ring false. IMO, it would be more convinving to look at the Soulborn's low ML (especially with the SR:yes quality of all soulmelds), its low essentia capacity, the class's late and lackluster bloom, or how little 13 essentia can actually do than it is to try to bash it with bizarre Fighter comparisons.

Last edited by Jude_H : 09-18-2011 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 09-18-2011, 03:40 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
Godskook
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
Well, it's certainly one hell of a start, but ultimately, I'd like to have both incarnate and totemist soulmelds listed by bind slot. It's... a fairly work-intensive project, but hey, I guess that's what I've gotten myself into.
Alright, so I'll finish the Totemist ones then, you can start the Incarnate, and first done starts the Soulborn?

Reposting:
Spoiler

New:
Brow Chakra binds:
Spoiler

Should Chakra binds:
Spoiler

Throat Chakra binds:
Spoiler
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Old 09-18-2011, 06:19 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
ShneekeyTheLost
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

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I hate to nitpick, but I was with you until the Soulborn part, then you lost me. You're right that the Soulborn sucks, but the justifications are a stretch (and this is a case you really don't need to stretch to make).

The Soulborn does get some really nice soulmelds - Thunderstep boots' sonic damage is useful for pouncers, and their stun effect would be downright nasty with meaningful ML or DCs; Mauling Gauntlets would be handy on a better platform (on an Incarnate, they could be +16 to trip/unarmed damage); Fearsome Mask is a free action mass-Shaken, which would be amazing for fear-stacking builds if it didn't have to deal with the Soulborn's abysmal shaper level or DCs. It's the class itself that makes the melds awful.
The shapes can be purchased via feats if they absolutely are what you want.

Quote:
Your examples of Fighters out-meldshaping Soulborns doesn't really work because the Fighter can't actually out-meldshape Soulborns. Even houseruling the Fighter to allow its feats to advance Meldshaping, it would take 8 feats to match the Soulborn's shapes and binds, and 13 more to match its essentia; the Fighter isn't even in the ballpark. The Incarnum 2/Fighter 18 example also neglects essentia difference. Essentia matters - it's why Bonus Essentia is featured in nearly every meldshaper build.

A Meldshaping class being better than the Fighter at Meldshaping is hardly redeeming, but it does make your argument against the Soulborn ring false. IMO, it would be more convinving to look at the Soulborn's low ML (especially with the SR:yes quality of all soulmelds), its low essentia capacity, the class's late and lackluster bloom, or how little 13 essentia can actually do than it is to try to bash it with bizarre Fighter comparisons.
Perhaps you missed where I compared it unfavorably to a Totemist HALF it's level?

And I'm sorry, but a Fighter IS a better shaper than a Soulborn. It has the same ML, can pick up his binds EARLIER, and can end up with more essentia. The build with Incarnate2/Fighter18 has more essentia than a Soulborn... by level 3. That's before the soulborn even GETS the first meldshape.
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Old 09-18-2011, 06:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
Jude_H
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And I'm sorry, but a Fighter IS a better shaper than a Soulborn. It has the same ML, can pick up his binds EARLIER, and can end up with more essentia. The build with Incarnate2/Fighter18 has more essentia than a Soulborn... by level 3. That's before the soulborn even GETS the first meldshape.
Soulborn 20:
5 Soulmelds (ML 10 for all)
13 Essentia from class levels
3 Chakra binds

Incarnate 2/Fighter 18:
3 Soulmelds (ML 2 for all)
2 Essentia from class levels
1 Chakra Bind

I2/F18 with 2 Shape Soulmeld feats, 2 Open Chakra Feats, Bonus Essentia and 3 incarnum feats:
5 Soulmelds (ML 2 for 3, 10 for 2)
7 Essentia
3 Chakra Binds

Fighter 20 at its best:
5 Soulmelds (ML 10)
0 Essentia
2 Chakra Binds
{Soulmelds/Binds/Essentia can be arranged at a 1:1 rate, depending on what you're going for, but the count is lower than Soulborn regardless of the array}

The Fighter builds would still have 10-11 fighter feats to build up some combat shtick, compared to the Soulborn's 7 free feats (11-12:8 if Azurin), but even the Incarnate/Soulborn Fighter would still fall 6 essentia short.

Unless you consider the Dark Chaos shuffle practical op, I'm having a hard time seeing the Fighter coming out ahead.

Last edited by Jude_H : 09-18-2011 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 09-18-2011, 07:37 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

This makes me wonder at the validity of fighters who use feats to get meldshaping and ToB manuevers on top of ACFs. Using armored mage and Dungeoncrasher while focused on ToB, Binding, and Meldshaping....
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Old 09-18-2011, 08:50 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
Essence_of_War
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

Shneekey,

I think you mis-labelled the firs PrC you reviewed. I think that should be the "Incandescent Champion". You've duplicated it as the "Incarnum Blade".

Also, I think part of the analysis ended up outside of the spoiler tags.

Edit: Note about the ISFM. If you don't dip into crusader or fighter, straight incarnate doesn't get heavy armor proficiency so you can't live the dream of Adamantine Full Plate + Armor Bond. This might be worth mentioning as another reason to take the crusader dip you mentioned.

Last edited by Essence_of_War : 09-19-2011 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 09-19-2011, 07:14 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

Updated with PrC information. Most of them are traps, thanks to the way meldshaping and chakra binds work, but there's some things to be had here.
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #27
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

Should we list combinations possible, like builds?

Otherwise this is a neat guide.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:30 AM   Top  -  End  -  #28
Godskook
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Totem Rager - You know how I said Incandescent Champion wasn't quite the worst PrC in the book? Guess what, we're here.
I disagree. Totem Rager may not be 'great', but it isn't 'trap' either. Its decent enough and does well enough to at least be considered a proper Hybrid alongside Soulcaster and Mystic Theurge, even if it isn't up there with Arcane Hierophant.

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Y'see, the problem is that it likes to pretend that it's a meldshaper class... but you only get Least and Lesser chakra binds. You also lose 2 meldshaper levels, when the Totemist already has trouble getting enough binds and shapes to be competitive.
And unless you're getting dispelled a lot, losing 2 manifester levels only sets you back 1 shape and 1 bind, and even then, only part of the time(The most notable time this happens is at level 20, actually. For most of the career, you're only behind a fractional amount, so at some levels you'll actually be 'even').

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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
Totem RAAAAAAGE. Wow, look at all the bonus essentia you get! Oh, wait... if I'd just gone straight Totemist, I'd probably have ended up with more than that anyways.
You're only right if you're talking Totemist 20. A totem rager wins here even against your later example of Barbarian 1/Totemist 19.

And thanks to the faster progression, you actually pull ahead on Essentia in the mid-late levels.

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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
Extra Rage/Extended Rage. Are combats that frequent and that prolonged that you *need* these? Maybe, I suppose, if you're trying to collect prerequisites, it might be a way to do so, but really... this tin is labeled 'fail'.
Extended Rage isn't anything useful, but Extra Rage actually is. Unless your DM is a fan of the 15-minute work day, you should be expecting 3-5 encounters per day. The barbarian dip only gave you 1 rage, and grabbing the extra rage feat only gives you 2. That means you're only covered for 3 of the average 4. The class given ones give you just enough rage to last through the 'standard', as well as one to spare. A decent thing for a Barbarian.

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DR/- that STACKS with your Barbarian class feature! Only you don't GET DR from Barbarian until Barb7. I don't know of too many builds that gets that far into it.
Its *DR*. That's a win right there for a front-liner who's definitely going to be taking hits left and right.

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Uses: Don't. WhirlingPounceBarian1/Totemist x is in every way superior to this piece of garbage. And that's only because you want the haste and pounce so you don't have to bind Sphinx Claws.
The Totem Rager has higher essentia, more raging(as opposed to only once), DR, and +10 HP(average improvement of a d10 compared to a d8).

Your proposal has 1 more chakra bind(only half the time), Totem double-bind, 1 more shaped meld(only 2/3rds the time), and slightly better resistance against dispel and unshaping attempts.

I'm not seeing it being that big of a difference, except if what you're wanting to play is more of a Barbarian than a Totemist, and in which case, its win.

And before you go into it, Throat, Waist and Heart have such lack-luster binds that a Barbarous meldshaper build would almost *NEVER* bind anything to any of those chakras, making the loss of the chakras meaningless. Its like complaining that Warblade doesn't get maneuvers that work well worth bows. There's a reason for that: Warblades aren't meant to use bows, and don't even have proficiency.

Oh, in other news, I finished the Chakra binds:

Waist Chakra binds:
Spoiler

Heart Chakra binds:
Spoiler

Soul Chakra binds:
Spoiler
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Old 09-20-2011, 01:13 AM   Top  -  End  -  #29
Tvtyrant
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

Perhaps we need a guide to the totem rager? :P
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Old 09-20-2011, 06:03 AM   Top  -  End  -  #30
Essence_of_War
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Default Re: Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide

Shneekey,

Do you want me to write up those Inc/SB binds by chakra also, or are you beyond the point of no return on that?

I already have them written up, I just need to put them in a table (or maybe a list would be easier?) I guess.

Edit:

Also, you may want to consider adding the Soul Manifester for PrCs. Because of the trickiness of the Ardent, I'd say it's a far better choice than the Soul Caster.

Edit 2: I hadn't heard from you in a while so I just did it:

Soulborn Soulmelds sorted/described by bind:
Spoiler


Incarnate Soulmelds Sorted/Described by Bind:
Spoiler

Last edited by Essence_of_War : 09-20-2011 at 08:57 AM.
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