Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

[Mathis]

Originally Posted by Anderlith

He passed out guns, that's it. He did not coordinate everyone into a line or have them surround the barn. He walked up alone & opened the gates. The others joined in after. They were forced into a life or death situation.

Please, they were never in danger, there wasn't anything life or death about it. It might all have looked dramatic because that's what a show is supposed to do, but if that situation had been real they'd not be in any real danger. Like Reverent-one said, they were prepared well enough and would only had been in danger if they had all put their weapons down and turned to look another way. Don't over-dramatize this thing or make it out to be something it wasn't.

[Anderlith]

Originally Posted by Mathis

Please, they were never in danger, there wasn't anything life or death about it. It might all have looked dramatic because that's what a show is supposed to do, but if that situation had been real they'd not be in any real danger. Like Reverent-one said, they were prepared well enough and would only had been in danger if they had all put their weapons down and turned to look another way. Don't over-dramatize this thing or make it out to be something it wasn't.

He released a pack of dangerous creatures with only himself between them & the group of bystanders. Yes, some of them had weapons, but none of them were standing there ready to fire. 5 armed people to 10 unarmed people is a bad ratio when dealing with an immediate attack. Especially when you have a zombie on a leash that could spring free if it isn't being held in check.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by Anderlith

He released a pack of dangerous creatures with only himself between them & the group of bystanders. Yes, some of them had weapons, but none of them were standing there ready to fire. 5 armed people to 10 unarmed people is a bad ratio when dealing with an immediate attack. Especially when you have a zombie on a leash that could spring free if it isn't being held in check.

It takes all of two seconds to go from with a loaded gun, not ready to fire, to with a loaded gun, ready to fire, all they have to do is lift the gun and point it. And as the episode showed, 5 people vs X number (it was greater than 10, I think) of unarmed people is only a bad ratio for the unarmed people, especially when they're coming out of a gap only 2 or so can get through at a time.

[Mathis]

Originally Posted by Anderlith

He released a pack of dangerous creatures with only himself between them & the group of bystanders. Yes, some of them had weapons, but none of them were standing there ready to fire. 5 armed people to 10 unarmed people is a bad ratio when dealing with an immediate attack. Especially when you have a zombie on a leash that could spring free if it isn't being held in check.

I can agree that this would have been a problem had the walkers been able to run. Alas, as their name implies they cannot and are forever doomed to walk at a slumbering, non-threatening pace. You can pick out details that -could- have made this a more dangerous situation than it was, but no matter how much you pick and poke at it, it really wasn't the life or death situation you claim it was.

[Anderlith]

Originally Posted by Reverent-One

It takes all of two seconds to go from with a loaded gun, not ready to fire, to with a loaded gun, ready to fire, all they have to do is lift the gun and point it. And as the episode showed, 5 people vs X number (it was greater than 10, I think) of unarmed people is only a bad ratio for the unarmed people, especially when they're coming out of a gap only 2 or so can get through at a time.

No, I meant that there are 10 humans without guns, not walkers.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by Anderlith

No, I meant that there are 10 humans without guns, not walkers.

Ah, in that case, I'll say that the ratio of armed to unarmed people is an absolutely worthless thing to consider if the total number of armed people is enough to handle the danger. If you only need one armed person, it doesn't matter if there's 1 or 100 unarmed people there too as long as the armed person is close enough to do the job.

[Anderlith]

Originally Posted by Reverent-One

Ah, in that case, I'll say that the ratio of armed to unarmed people is an absolutely worthless thing to consider if the total number of armed people is enough to handle the danger. If you only need one armed person, it doesn't matter if there's 1 or 100 unarmed people there too as long as the armed person is close enough to do the job.

If the others had not taken up positions the walkers would have overwhelmed Shane. Then they would have gone after Hershel & Rick. Rick would have lost control of the leashed walker. The situation would have gotten worse from there.

Shane had no conviction that the others would take up positions. In his mind it was him versus every walker in the barn. He would have lost that battle had the others not stepped up.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Anderlith

If the others had not taken up positions the walkers would have overwhelmed Shane.

That is incredibly unlikely. Shane is the best shot of the group, and the walkers were coming through one or two at a time. As long as the others didn't shoot him, he would have been able to handle himself fine so long as his ammo didn't run out.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by Anderlith

If the others had not taken up positions the walkers would have overwhelmed Shane. Then they would have gone after Hershel & Rick. Rick would have lost control of the leashed walker. The situation would have gotten worse from there.

Shane had no conviction that the others would take up positions. In his mind it was him versus every walker in the barn. He would have lost that battle had the others not stepped up.

If we ignore Flickerdart's point and assume that Shane couldn't handle them, yes, if everyone with guns just turns and walks away, bad things would happen. But the characters are not suicidal like that, so that's a moot point. You might as well say that Shane put them in danger by giving them guns since they could then all shoot themselves. It's literally true that they could, but there's no reasonable reason to believe they would.

[Johel]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

That is incredibly unlikely. Shane is the best shot of the group, and the walkers were coming through one or two at a time. As long as the others didn't shoot him, he would have been able to handle himself fine so long as his ammo didn't run out.

This and the fact that even if it did ran out, he wouldn't have been the only target of the walkers.
said targets would then have run or open fire in self-defense anyway.
The whole thing was just him forcing the decision on others as a power play against Rick.

While not planned, the fact that the missing girl was among the walkers will only reinforce the impression that he did the right thing :
People might have kept searching for her for weeks, wasting times and resources while also risking their lives in the process
Now, they know and they can make the choice to leave without any real guilt.

Shane will look like the perfect leader, as he get the job done every single time, taking the difficult but right decisions when needed.
Not the guy you wish to follow so much that the guy you need to follow, though.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by Johel

Shane will look like the perfect leader, as he get the job done every single time, taking the difficult but right decisions when needed.
Not the guy you wish to follow so much that the guy you need to follow, though.

Except it wasn't Shane who was able to do what needed to be done for Sophia, it was Rick. While everyone else was standing there dumbfounded, Rick was the one who made the tough call and took care of her.

[Carry2]

Originally Posted by Anderlith

Shane had no conviction that the others would take up positions. In his mind it was him versus every walker in the barn. He would have lost that battle had the others not stepped up.

I don't think so. I believe his purpose was to force the others to step up. To realise they live in a different world. Same way he (apparently) left dealing with Sophia for Rick.

Frack, that was a punch to the gut. It adds up, though. Where else could she've been hiding?

...Also, that quicksand barrier explains a lot about how the farm managed to survive intact so long.

[Anderlith]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

That is incredibly unlikely. Shane is the best shot of the group, and the walkers were coming through one or two at a time. As long as the others didn't shoot him, he would have been able to handle himself fine so long as his ammo didn't run out.

Yes, Shane is a great leader, *rolls eyes
& everyone is expendable!

[Flickerdart]

Great leader? No. Great sharpshooter? Absolutely.

[Tyndmyr]

I agree that a group of armed people is quite capable of taking on lots of unarmed people...that's not the thing.

It's that they were forced, at the penalty of dying if they didn't do so, to engage the zombies. In short, instead of talking his way through it, he forced everyone to do things his way. This is not a sign of competence. It's a sign of arrogance and a willingness to risk your life to get his way.

It doesn't matter if the man knows you can probably take a tiger if he looses a tiger on you...that's still not a thing people should do to each other.

The proper way to handle it would be more or less what Rick was doing. Acknowledge that it's Hershel's place, and either accede to his conditions or, if you can't resolve your differences diplomatically, move on. Hershel was quite fair with them and helped them plenty.

[Reverent-One]

No one was arguing that Shane was acting like a great leader there, we were just saying that he didn't put them in any serious danger by forcing the choice of obeying Herschel's request or slaughtering the walkers.

[Tyndmyr]

Originally Posted by Reverent-One

No one was arguing that Shane was acting like a great leader there, we were just saying that he didn't put them in any serious danger by forcing the choice of obeying Herschel's request or slaughtering the walkers.

The danger was the forcing.

There was no reasonable choice to obey Herschel's request at all. Doing so would have led to being eaten by walkers. Hence the danger.

He wasn't forcing a choice. People had chosen. He was forcing them to his position.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr

The danger was the forcing.

You going to make up your mind on this at some point?

I agree that a group of armed people is quite capable of taking on lots of unarmed people...that's not the thing.

There was no reasonable choice to obey Herschel's request at all. Doing so would have led to being eaten by walkers. Hence the danger.

So he was protecting the group by not letting Rick make the group go along with Herschel's sucidal request then? Again, you're not being consistent.

He wasn't forcing a choice. People had chosen. He was forcing them to his position.

No, Rick had chosen, that doesn't mean everyone agrees with Rick.

[Folytopo]

I think that is game, set, match. Next episode it will be interesting to see how they take being kicked off the farm. If they use force to stay or take supplies.

[Karoht]

Originally Posted by Folytopo

I think that is game, set, match. Next episode it will be interesting to see how they take being kicked of the farm. If they use force to stay or take supplies.

I predict demoralization, followed by an arguement or 3. Lots of crying from someone. Finger pointing. Much finger pointing. Angry finger pointing.
Maybe someone will lose a finger?

[Flickerdart]

Well, Shane has guns and Hershel doesn't. That;s one option.

[Anderlith]

Open the barn & free the walkers (who could kill you) is better than keeping them penned up where there is only a possibility that they will get free....? Doesn't make sense.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by Anderlith

Open the barn & free the walkers (who could kill you) is better than keeping them penned up where there is only a possibility that they will get free....? Doesn't make sense.

No, it's open the barn and slaughter the walkers with no real risk to yourself, or leave them there for something to potentially go horribly wrong in the future.

Originally Posted by Karoht

Maybe someone will lose a finger?

All the better to point with.

[The Reverend]

There were infinitely better ways to handle the situation with just a little thought . Using a ladder to get up above the zombies from the outside and drop sharp heavy pointy things tied to ropes or chains on their heads while they are trapped in the barn. No ladder? Cut a small hole in the door so zeds can only get out one at a time on their hands and knees, two guys pin with pitchforks, one guy bashes with an ax or hammer, couple guys drag it out, and a whole bunch of folks stand by with guns in case. Everyone wears eye and skin protection to deal with blood spatter.

[Tyndmyr]

Originally Posted by Reverent-One

You going to make up your mind on this at some point?

There is no conflict. They were able to take the zombies, but only by doing things Shane's way. He forced them all to do what he wanted or die. That is an action like that of a hijacker or other hostile person.

After all, had they all opted not to fire against the zombies, it would have been a bloodbath, no?

So he was protecting the group by not letting Rick make the group go along with Herschel's sucidal request then? Again, you're not being consistent.

You are misunderstanding. Herschel's request was in no way suicidal. Not attacking the walkers was a very reasonable option UNTIL Shane opened the door. He made them an imminent threat when they were not previously so.

No, Rick had chosen, that doesn't mean everyone agrees with Rick.

And there had been a lack of talking and deciding. Rick's decision was quite reasonable, all things considered. Shane's was not.

Originally Posted by Karoht

I predict demoralization, followed by an arguement or 3. Lots of crying from someone. Finger pointing. Much finger pointing. Angry finger pointing.
Maybe someone will lose a finger?

Basically, yes. Eventually, they'll have to move on.

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Well, Shane has guns and Hershel doesn't. That;s one option.

A terrible option. Hershel's your doctor. That IS a valuable skill, and one that others seem to lack. In addition, Hershel is not entirely alone. His daughter, despite her differences with him, is unlikely to want to see Shane use or threaten to use a gun on him. Glenn probably doesn't want that to happen. Others will certainly object or refuse to follow him. It's likely to end in a bloodbath if he doesn't back down.

In addition to being very morally questionable, it's not a very pragmatic choice.

Originally Posted by Reverent-One

No, it's open the barn and slaughter the walkers with no real risk to yourself, or leave them there for something to potentially go horribly wrong in the future.

Or you could just leave. Which they'll probably have to do now anyway, only a fair bit lower on ammo, and having turned a potential ally against them.

Or, if you're going to be a jerk and ignore Hershel's request, you could have just efficiently killed them from the upper barn entrance at no risk whatsoever. Less ammo, less risk = win. Shane was not trying to be practical. Shane was grandstanding to be in charge.

[Karoht]

Originally Posted by Reverent-One

All the better to point with.

Yeup. That solidifies my prediction. Much angry finger pointing. Followed by a surprise to break up the arguement VS it getting to it's natural conclusion, so that the rest of the episode and at minimum the 3 after it, there is a palpable tension which could be solved if people just talked to one another and worked as a team.

It's formula, but it's surprisingly entertaining formula.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr

There is no conflict. They were able to take the zombies, but only by doing things Shane's way. He forced them all to do what he wanted or die. That is an action like that of a hijacker or other hostile person.

After all, had they all opted not to fire against the zombies, it would have been a bloodbath, no?

Maybe, maybe not. It's debatable whether Shane could have handled the walkers himself. It's a moot point anyway, since the characters aren't suicidal, so of course they're going to shoot at the walkers.

And there had been a lack of talking and deciding. Rick's decision was quite reasonable, all things considered. Shane's was not.

Or you could just leave. Which they'll probably have to do now anyway, only a fair bit lower on ammo, and having turned a potential ally against them.

Or, if you're going to be a jerk and ignore Hershel's request, you could have just efficiently killed them from the upper barn entrance at no risk whatsoever. Less ammo, less risk = win. Shane was not trying to be practical. Shane was grandstanding to be in charge.

Again, no one's arguing that Shane's choice was the best one, just that the walkers posed no real threat to the group.

[Silverraptor]

So, the season continues. And it starts off with a hell of an opening. Totally did not see that happening to those 2 guys.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Silverraptor

Totally did not see that happening to those 2 guys.

I did. I just thought it would happen in two episodes' time, and I thought Shane'd be the one to do it. But I like the way it turned out better.

[Tyndmyr]

Originally Posted by Reverent-One

Again, no one's arguing that Shane's choice was the best one, just that the walkers posed no real threat to the group.

Well, we've established that the group themselves thinks that the walkers did, and that they might not have been able to handle more. Thus, Shane most certainly is seen as a threat to the group BY at least part of the group*. This makes his actions not smart.

*And frankly, his aggressive, confrontational behavior is pretty obviously a warning sign to everyone.

Additionally, the fact that they missed actually headshotting them all indicates that no, this really wasn't an efficient clean-up. Almost lost someone to what should have been a remarkably easy job.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

I did. I just thought it would happen in two episodes' time, and I thought Shane'd be the one to do it. But I like the way it turned out better.

I admit I did think it would drag out much longer with stupidity. But no, killing them then and there was correct. They were *way* too intent on finding/going to their camp. Crazily so, IMO. You don't make friends like that.