stitched, dreaded, and thread

[drack]

OK, quiet ye old disturbing rambling and take it here where the good old folks won't need to hear it no more

My post

Spoiler

I'm speaking bold again

Originally Posted by qube

first Im gonna wait for the DMK
scorching ray? ... hmmm I did forget touch attack spell
what about touch attacks?
sry 'bout that. no offence intended.
It's cool
i fail to see how a some midlevel character (lvl10) being able solo encounters intended for an entire party of end levelers (CR20) (while most can't), would be a problem of the CR system, and not of the build
No-no, bridgar's not talking about just that, he's talking about how a CR5 could beat a CR15 or prove so much more challenging, true you can always play the number game too, but that only adds to it. Once you string things together and make better or worse builds that gap forms and CR stops helping as much
you really believe that???. turn undead. a couple of spells or hits of a +1 weapon. (it only has 26 hp, with maybe 10 temp)
While an ogre mage or 12 headed pyro hydra would decimate your average lvl 3 party.
He's thinking about in an epic scenario, not a level 4 one
doesn't fix it. them to can be broken.

What if we make characters which can't solo a pair of great wyrm force dragons (as you boasted your character probbably could)
- which btw are the toughest monsters I found in statted the ELH SRD.

lets say devistation centerpede or a couple of iron collossusses might be a good challenge.
musta missed demilich, always level 21+ mage though I think the 'advanced dragon' (essentially everyone goes beyond great wyrm) is the toughest I'm not sure it's in the SRD... anywho I think he's talking about if they're not really fighting back or skillfully played in the least, and really he was boasting the sheer damage/round, and someone brought up their HP being around it, DR, AC, ect wasn't factored in. (any DR over 20 attacks builds up)
to proof the fault in your analogy. you said level 30 massively broken as he should not be able to stand his own against a level 10,
misinterpreting what he's saying, but as I'm not him I don't feel like speaking in his stead least I say it wrong. (I think it may be a typo, or him catching your typo, or a silly twist on your logic to over-embellishment it's illogical nature, ect. it could be a few things)
You jugde a lvl 30 as broken by the capabilities of a lvl 10 (but as pun pun fighter 4 is a level 10, by your example any lvl 30 is broken)
I judge a lvl 10 as broken by specifying he shouldn't be able to do encounters intended for his entire party, in 10 levels.

I did not miss that. I think its messed up. horribly.

So you really think I should be able to baleful polymorph you into a newt as I may to an inept village boy who defiles my home? if that was the case epic wouldn't really mean much... I mean it's like saying that you want to keep your AC low so that the goblin has a chance to kill you
euh, no. that CR 29 would be easy challenge for 4 such PCs.
According to Qube's logic. it would be á point.
Can you two lay off the petty arguments including but not limited to putting words in each others mouths, just saying it's messed up or extremist examples just to drill down points, it's not helping.

Now I'd say the level 11 that would fit in this game is 'high op', than there's 'mid op' which entails anything between low and high op (a wide range with differences in power, but honestly how much does it really matter that you can each kill each other, there are plenty of ways to kill anyone), than there's 'low-op' the favorite for people new to epic who have played non-epic and like the big numbers but don't quite know what to do with them, the favorite of DMs that want a nice mellow epic game in which the players can be 'as strong as the gods' without actually being close, and the favorite to those who hate big numbers or wish that they were playing a lower level game.

Now I don't mean to judge, but you strike me as one opposed to big numbers, and as one who missed the old days of nobody making their save against the strongest spell around... "Fireball"... *gasps of awe* Now I know that you could probably handle some optimization, but you want that lower level excitement over the common things back. Now that their fire immunity blocks your scorching ray and their saves block your spells rather than reaching to creativity to blow the branch over their head off the tree and onto their head you want that simplicity back. Am I wrong? If not I must say that lowering numbers to try to be new to epic again won't do it any more than pretending that you've never heard of anything stronger than fireball. If that's the case I suggest a lower level game of planer expansion. It will have new discoveries around each bend, and there will be that mystery back with your basic spells still working as they used to with saves around 20

Reply to bridgar's post

Spoiler

I'm Bold, other is bridgar
No. An Ogre Mage couldn't even take a level 3 barbarian... ehh, debatably

On the point of turning an Allip, it's improbable for a level 3 Cleric to turn an Allip, which has 4 HD. Even if the Cleric succeeds in turning the Allip, it returns in one minute to kill the party. There's nothing that a level 3 party can do to stop an Allip. I've faced those darned thing... trick is to keep out of range of their ability it's a 3rd level encounter if you can do that

Monsters are not a challenge to epic characters. It is extremely commonly know within the epic-gestalt community that DMs use monsters as a base and then give them PC classes to make them competent. No epic-gestalt DM worth his salt uses a monster straight out of a book.I'd say it's doable.


On the topic of level 10 OK, lets get our story right, are we talking about one optimized to the point where it's macho muscles don't let it use the can, or the run of the mill that a DM would allow in their level 10 game?

[Bridgar]

Originally Posted by qube

... so, we're talking about balance and you bring up high-tier classes?

if it falls under Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party. i DEFENATELY say broken.

They're 40% of core... you just want to ignore them?

a broken on perhaps, but a normal one?
Change shape/invis for supprize, sleep (DC 14,save-or-'die') or cone of cold (DC 18,9d6) if the barbarian loses init I can't see him recover
and otherwise its simple numbers (assuming the ogre doesn't cheat (fly regen reach)
barbarian +8 vs 18 for about 18 damage requires 3 hits
ogre +7 vs 14 for about 17 damage requires 3 hits with better hit chance

I've made this Barbarian for another game and he's ECL 4, but it'll do. I put all of five minutes into this build and it's all core.

If the Barbarian goes first, he rages and charges for 3d6+16 damage at a +12. This about kills the Ogre Mage, but not entirely. On his turn, the Ogre Mage has no choice but to 5' step back and use an SLA. If it uses Sleep or Charm Person, the barbarian's boosted Will will block it. If it uses Cone of Cold, the 9d6 will not kill the Barbarian on average, especially not while raging. Barbarian 5' steps and gets the kill.

If the Ogre Mage goes first, he uses invisibility. Barbarian rages, forcing the Ogre Mage to use it's only worthwhile SLA left, Cone of Cold. Again, doesn't kill the Barbarian. Barbarian charges, nearly killing Ogre Mage. Since Cone of Cold is 1/day, the Ogre Mage is now forced into melee combat, where it most likely loses.

because both are monsters. they will never fight. an allip vs the party makes the cleric and wizard shine, an ogre mage is good for the barbarian.

That's a cop-out. If CR measures power, the higher CR creature (the more powerful one) should win in a fight. Never ever, ever, ever, ever will an Ogre Mage or Hydra kill an Allip. Allip wins hands down every time.

Allip makes nothing shine. Wizard gets 50% miss chance on all of his spells and cleric becomes useless for the rest of the game, having his Wis dropped below casting levels.

Ogre Mage is good for everyone. Wizard can incapacitate it quite easily due to it's low Ref and Will. Barbarian can kill it because it sucks at combat. Rogue could snipe it because skill items will give a Rogue of that level considerably higher than +10 hide and move silently. Druid could have his animal companion kill it or he could kill it with spells or he could summon a monster that can kill it or he can basically do anything and it dies. Ogre Magi are completely incompetent. A Monk could kill an Ogre Mage!!!

I also noticed that you completely ignored the Allip's impact on the party after the battle.

Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same allip’s babble for 24 hours.

That's assuming that you're only fighting 1 Allip. If players fight intelligently, why don't creatures? 1 Allip goes in and drains the wis of everyone until it dies. The rest go in and kill them when they're susceptible to Babble.

they broke lvl 1 commoner, they can brake ANYONE.

So everything should be banned because anything can be broken? I don't see your point here...

specify "a level 10"
ANY level 10? or specific build of level 10? or only not broken ones (at which point you're simply stating the obvious - but still have not defined what broken is)

I have defined broken. Broken is anything with infinite or effectively infinite loops or abilities. They supersede numbers and thus are overpowered in any level of optimization, even op-contests.

Your definition of broken, on the other hand, is ambiguous. Being able to take down something intended for a party 10 levels higher than you is an extremely variable definition.

By your definition, any level 20 with immunity to mind-affecting is broken. Genius Loci, a CR 30 creature, can literally do nothing but tickle you with its gelatinous arms if you have immunity to mind-affecting. It can barely move and a level 20 NPC warrior could eventually kill it with a bow. Hell, a bunch of level 1 peasants with immunity to mind-affecting could throw rocks at it until it dies.

yes. indeed.
(SRD) Challenge Rating: This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty.

balanced, by RAW.

The EL system is less reliable and accurate than the CR system!!! It takes the failures of the CR system and then magnifies them. According to EL, A level 2 Barbarian is incapable of taking down a CR 1 Krenshar without help. It says that a level 1 Barbarian cannot kill a single orc without assistance. It says that A level 9 Barbarian cannot kill an Ogre Mage without help, a feat that I have shown a level 4 Barbarian can do.

[qube]

Originally Posted by Bridgar

They're 40% of core... you just want to ignore them?

ignore? nothing of that sort. I want to be realistic.

You can't say something is underpowered, because someone "Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing" does it better then you. It says the other guy is overpowered.

Originally Posted by Bridgar

I've made this Barbarian for another game and he's ECL 4, but it'll do. I put all of five minutes into this build and it's all core.

so? core isn't equivalent to not-broken (candle of invokation combo is also core)

Originally Posted by Bridgar

If the Ogre Mage goes first, he uses invisibility. Barbarian rages, forcing the Ogre Mage to use it's only worthwhile SLA left, Cone of Cold. Again, doesn't kill the Barbarian. Barbarian charges, nearly killing Ogre Mage. Since Cone of Cold is 1/day, the Ogre Mage is now forced into melee combat, where it most likely loses.

eeeuh ... you always play your ogre mages incompetent? Why did he cast invis? Invis is great to use to force a supprize round, or as escape spell. I'ts useless as first spell in combat (as it dissappears the next round).

- Opening with cone of cold might kill your barbarian if the rolls slightly above average damage: refl+1 vs DC 18 to get you 9d6 (av. 32.5 while you have 36 hp) (a.k.a. it would have killed the ECL3 barbarian)
- Opening with sleep is 55% save or die (or 60% for the ECL3 variant)

Oh, and I noticed your barbarian can't fly ... or an ability to detect Change Shaped or invisible creatures. (giving the ogre mage a good chance on a supprize round ,even before init is rolled)

Originally Posted by Bridgar

That's a cop-out. If CR measures power, the higher CR creature (the more powerful one) should win in a fight.

It's not cop out, it's the definition of CR.

Challenge Rating: This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty.

Why would CR measure interNPC combat? (especially, as those end with the DM who decide who wins)

Originally Posted by Bridgar

That's assuming that you're only fighting 1 Allip.

moving the goalpost much? I don't recall you ever speaking of a second allip until now?

Originally Posted by Bridgar

So everything should be banned because anything can be broken? I don't see your point here...

no, that was never my point. I was saying a character shouldn't be able solo to take on challenges intended for his party in 10 levels (I quote "Tarrasque or something"). You're the one who started with banning entire classes for their possible power.

[drack]

I reclaim my bold speaking

... so, we're talking about balance and you bring up high-tier classes?
low tier can be just as easily broken, but you continue to mention them in your ideal party, so why wouldn't we?
if it falls under Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party. i DEFENATELY say broken.
no-no-no, I don't like the tier system, tier 3 do one thing, but usually do it better, lets say you're into necromancy. Any epic undead legion, especially a tier 3 can crush the world, for that matter a level 15 could probably even raise such an army. If you can manage to cover your bases in 3rd tier or below than you may even be better than a first tier party.
a broken on perhaps, but a normal one?

because both are monsters. they will never fight. an allip vs the party makes the cleric and wizard shine, an ogre mage is good for the barbarian. Wait, monsters never fight each other... all this time I thought hell and the abyss fought, I didn't know that they just assembled armies and waited for humans to come

specify "a level 10"
ANY level 10? or specific build of level 10? or only not broken ones (at which point you're simply stating the obvious - but still have not defined what broken is) well I saw you commonly refering to 'a level 10' as what we should measure things against... where does a level 10 stand in that regard. Basically are we talking overpowered, underpowered, what?


(SRD) Challenge Rating: This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty. I always give my parties a few extra CR when I use monsters (or I just make better monsters as bridgar said with classes, templates, and advancement)

I feel that its messed up that the only way to use baleful polymorph, is to break the system. What if I wanted to play a baleful polymorpher? no luck for me. well if you turn everyone to a newt and stomp their brains out it becomes an auto-kill... do you really want a game in which people with power reviling the gods are easily auto-killed?

IMHO big numbers are fine. big differences aren't.
Yes and no, I can always challenge parties with even un-optimized level 10s if I have numbers on them, trust me the creative solution is always best.

That's a cop-out. If CR measures power, the higher CR creature (the more powerful one) should win in a fight. Never ever, ever, ever, ever will an Ogre Mage or Hydra kill an Allip. Allip wins hands down every time.ehh, everything has it's strengths and weaknesses. Allip is tough, but a level 3 party that is ready for it has a decent chance. (I don't have a 5-min character t illustrate the point.

Allip makes nothing shine. Wizard gets 50% miss chance on all of his spells and cleric becomes useless for the rest of the game, having his Wis dropped below casting levels. nope, 50% miss isn't life threatening, the cleric should be able to find another who can heal him, or just keep some distance.

Ogre Magi are completely incompetent.
that's what they're there for
I also noticed that you completely ignored the Allip's impact on the party after the battle. you heal it or avoid the drain.



That's assuming that you're only fighting 1 Allip. If players fight intelligently, why don't creatures? 1 Allip goes in and drains the wis of everyone until it dies. The rest go in and kill them when they're susceptible to Babble. I don't see much in terms of tactics there...

I have defined broken. Broken is anything with infinite or effectively infinite loops or abilities. They supersede numbers and thus are overpowered in any level of optimization, even op-contests. sure, but i think you can get a few more broken things even without. So lets also consider things that can only be defeated by such powers broken.

mind-affecting. It can barely move and a level 20 NPC warrior could eventually kill it with a bow. Hell, a bunch of level 1 peasants with immunity to mind-affecting could throw rocks at it until it dies. Let it id effect something else to kill them

It's not cop out, it's the definition of CR. still, my cleric contros an allip.... now is it not broken?

Challenge Rating: This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty. depends on the party, usually a good range of what 8CR firs a party?

Why would CR measure interNPC combat? (especially, as those end with the DM who decide who wins) well it could certainly pertain to the PCs, like my pet allip for instance?

moving the goalpost much? I don't recall you ever speaking of a second allip until now? well was there more than one party member before now?

no, that was never my point. I was saying a character shouldn't be able solo to take on challenges intended for his party in 10 levels (I quote "Tarrasque or something"). You're the one who started with banning entire classes for their possible power. Doesn't matter who started the argument, I'll finish it All classes and levels of optimization are balanced before a good DM, but a good DM will ban stuff for the sake of the party so that they are less killed later

[qube]

Originally Posted by drack

no-no-no, I don't like the tier system

OK, but I used it as example, to show that comparing with a wizard or so doesn't neccecairly mean the other guy is underpowered.

all this time I thought hell and the abyss fought, I didn't know that they just assembled armies and waited for humans to come

a tree falling in the forest ...

well if you turn everyone to a newt and stomp their brains out it becomes an auto-kill... do you really want a game in which people with power reviling the gods are easily auto-killed?

of course not, and there's always the problem of immunity, but that aside, I'dd like a chance to play what I want - isn't that what roleplay games are about?

Yes and no, I can always challenge parties with even un-optimized level 10s if I have numbers on them, trust me the creative solution is always best.

true, one of the funnest I DMmed was when my level 14's needed to fight lvl 2 kobolds. However, what I don't like is being the low-opt lvl 5 in a party of high-opt lvl 10's.
Basically, I agree with our previous DM in saying everyone should be awesome. If the DM can compensate for number differences there's no problem. - but those compensations lose a lot of strength when PvP is allowed (the highest opt guy intimidating the rest of the party in what he wants).

> I also noticed that you completely ignored the Allip's impact on the party after the battle.
you heal it or avoid the drain.

or get the NPC that hired you to pay the bill :)

[quote]> It's not cop out, it's the definition of CR.
still, my cleric controls an allip.... now is it not broken?[quote]probably. But that has nothing to do with CR. - but with turn resistance and stuff.

> moving the goalpost much? I don't recall you ever speaking of a second allip until now?
well was there more than one party member before now?

when talking about interparty balance, 2 of them. when talking about CR an entire party.

All classes and levels of optimization are balanced before a good DM

Agreed. but if PvP is allowed, the DM must not forget to also balance those.

See, I don't mind one bit if my companion has double my attack/defenses/..., as long as that doesn't affect my awesomeness, and as long as my companion doesn't turn on me.

[Bridgar]

Originally Posted by qube

ignore? nothing of that sort. I want to be realistic.

Ignoring 40% of the unsupplemented game is not realistic...

You can't say something is underpowered, because someone "Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing" does it better then you. It says the other guy is overpowered.

That's exactly what I'm saying. If the generalist is better at doing your job than you, the specialist, you are incompetent.

so? core isn't equivalent to not-broken (candle of invokation combo is also core)

No, but if you're saying that 40% of unsupplemented Dnd is broken, you need to play another game.

eeeuh ... you always play your ogre mages incompetent? Why did he cast invis? Invis is great to use to force a supprize round, or as escape spell. I'ts useless as first spell in combat (as it dissappears the next round).

Fine, he opens with Cone of Cold. It still doesn't kill the barbarian on average.

- Opening with cone of cold might kill your barbarian if the rolls slightly above average damage: refl+1 vs DC 18 to get you 9d6 (av. 32.5 while you have 36 hp) (a.k.a. it would have killed the ECL3 barbarian)
- Opening with sleep is 55% save or die (or 60% for the ECL3 variant)

It's basically whomever goes first wins. Doesn't that say something about your beloved CR system if an unoptimized ECL 4 Barbarian can take down a CR 8 monster if he goes first? If the barbarian has just 1 more level, he wins every time. His Con goes up to 20, giving him 4 more hp and he gains 11 from leveling. That puts him at 51 hp. Cone of Cold's max damage is 54 for Ogre Mage.

Even if the Ogre Mage goes first, Cone of cold does average 33 damage, dropping the Barbarian to 18. Barbarian rages, gaining 8 hp back (26 hp now) and charges. He deals an average 27 damage, dropping the Ogre Mage to 10. Ogre Mage's turn, it goes back up to 15 and does... nothing that can deal 26 damage. His max melee damage is 25. He can't win.

Oh, and I noticed your barbarian can't fly ... or an ability to detect Change Shaped or invisible creatures. (giving the ogre mage a good chance on a supprize round ,even before init is rolled)

So running away constitutes winning now? A surprise round does nothing because the only thing that the Ogre Mage can do is its 1/day Cone of Cold. If it uses any other SLA, it has a 50/50 shot of it working (rage raises your will) and then dies the next round.

It's not cop out, it's the definition of CR.

Challenge Rating: This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty.

Why would CR measure interNPC combat? (especially, as those end with the DM who decide who wins)

Because they're not NPCs if you play them? If CR measures power, an Allip under my control shouldn't be able to defeat a 12-headed hydra under the DMs control.

You're avoiding admitting the flaws in the CR system.

moving the goalpost much? I don't recall you ever speaking of a second allip until now?

I'm not moving the goalpost. 1v1 ~ 4v4, does it not?

no, that was never my point. I was saying a character shouldn't be able solo to take on challenges intended for his party in 10 levels (I quote "Tarrasque or something"). You're the one who started with banning entire classes for their possible power.

Because that's what people using your arguments are arguing for, banning tier 1s/powerful things. They have this idea that power=broken, which it does not. Power is relative. Brokenness is not relative, it is absolute. Something that is broken will be broken in every situation that you present to it.

I noticed again that you picked and chose what arguments to respond to. You have yet to explain why Ogre Magi and Hydras have higher CR than Allips when Allips have a much more significant impact on the party post-battle. Also, you have yet to address my issues with the EL system. Do you think a level 1 Barbarian should be able to take on an Orc alone? Or is he broken?

Drack: You can't get rid of Ability Drain until your cleric is at level 7 and can cast the level 4 spell, Restoration. Oh, wait, that involves him having a Wis Score of 14. So, even if you survive the battle, your Cleric is crippled for the next four levels and is still useless, depending on how much he got drained.

On the taking on Allips if you're prepared thing... no. Just... no. I'm in an All-Casters arena that started at level 1 and is at level 4 now. I'm a wizard and we had, at the time, a cloistered cleric, Shapeshifter Druid, and a Dread Necromancer. The Dread Necromancer failed the save vs being stunned, all my spells missed with the 50% miss chance, the cleric got horribly ganged up on and went insane from loss of Wis and the Shapeshifter Druid died the same way. It was 4v2 and we lost. We were most certainly prepared, as we were all optimized out the ___. Even if you're prepared for Allips, they'll beat you. We ended up running away and having to buy obscure scrolls like Corpse Candle to kill them. We lost half our party and the players ragequit. They were optimizers that weren't used to getting slaughtered so badly.

[drack]

"of course not, and there's always the problem of immunity, but that aside, I'dd like a chance to play what I want - isn't that what roleplay games are about?"
you you're OK with immunity to everything but not high saves?

"true, one of the funnest I DMmed was when my level 14's needed to fight lvl 2 kobolds. However, what I don't like is being the low-opt lvl 5 in a party of high-opt lvl 10's.
Basically, I agree with our previous DM in saying everyone should be awesome. If the DM can compensate for number differences there's no problem. - but those compensations lose a lot of strength when PvP is allowed (the highest opt guy intimidating the rest of the party in what he wants)."
my un-optimized level 10s can kill bridgar and his mother. Yours can too. That aside I certainly believe in balance among your group, but I prefer to think of this as multiple groups. If anyone gets too strong they nurf themselves so that they don't die, and if you're too weak you can up yourself or not. After all even bridgar can't fight everyone at once. plus you can always hire mercenaries or put a price on his head if you're that intimidated.

"probably. But that has nothing to do with CR." doesn't it? (Allip &cleric topic)

"Agreed. but if PvP is allowed, the DM must not forget to also balance those." it's simple enough to kill someone stronger than you I could probably ward a stray gobblin and equip it to kill him You could too. It's rather pricey, but it works, and your army works better.

"You can't get rid of Ability Drain until your cleric is at level 7 and can cast the level 4 spell, Restoration. Oh, wait, that involves him having a Wis Score of 14. So, even if you survive the battle, your Cleric is crippled for the next four levels and is still useless, depending on how much he got drained." NPC, don't get hit, or have more than 14 Wis when you fight them... preferably all 3

"wizard" I frown at you. No but honestly I'd have liked to try that

[Bridgar]

Originally Posted by drack

NPC, don't get hit, or have more than 14 Wis when you fight them... preferably all 3

"wizard" I frown at you. No but honestly I'd have liked to try that

Having an NPC cast Restoration after the battle, if you happen to find an exactly level 7 Cleric willing to do it, will cost 280 gp per person.

Not getting hit is... just about impossible when fighting something incorporeal.

Having more than 14 Wis during the battle means nothing. You're still not level 7.

It's leveling up kind of quickly and I'm getting my chances to shine.

[drack]

hmm, are they really that fast that you can't give ground faster than they cover it? (can't undeads not run)

[Bridgar]

Originally Posted by drack

hmm, are they really that fast that you can't give ground faster than they cover it? (can't undeads not run)

They have fly 30 perfect and only zombies can't run.

[drack]

mounted casting

[Bridgar]

Originally Posted by drack

mounted casting

Yes, if you build the character with the sole purpose of killing an Allip, you can take them on. I've never, in all the years that I've played Dnd, seen a level 3 mounted spellcaster. Not once. I think you know how unrealistic that is, drack.

[drack]

you've never seen a mounted caster? What about a mounted archer than? they're equally likely, but the archer's less likely to run out of ammo at those levels.

(honestly how couldn't you have? )

[Bridgar]

Originally Posted by drack

you've never seen a mounted caster? What about a mounted archer than? they're equally likely, but the archer's less likely to run out of ammo at those levels.

(honestly how couldn't you have? )

Level 3 mounted caster? Really? You've made one? You have to waste feats, prolong PrCs, and blow skill points for a minor convenience that is quickly obsolete through your built-in class features. I've never seen one.

It's not as likely as a mounted archer. Archers have abilities that coincide with those involved in riding and don't gain the ability to teleport, fly, or conjure steeds. Archers have a reason to be mounted.

Edit: Your horse succumbs to Babble. You can't ride away...

[drack]

babble has a close range, I stay just barely within range of my spells. No I haven't made one... yet... it's really tempting... but the idea it's self isn't so outlandish, a mage that can cast spells from a horse it's mostly that you're defiantly gonna need some good concentration, good ride, and maybe a feat or two if you wanna be better at it, but my horse is much faster and allows me to pick off your stuffs with magic horse running puts 240' between you, Allip covers 120'/round, therefore full move every other round allowing the horse to be still while you cast, and easily keep space. And horses have enough wis to survive for one round

Edit: Now I must ask, how many teleporting level 3 magi have you made

[Bridgar]

Originally Posted by drack

babble has a close range, I stay just barely within range of my spells. No I haven't made one... yet... it's really tempting... but the idea it's self isn't so outlandish, a mage that can cast spells from a horse it's mostly that you're defiantly gonna need some good concentration, good ride, and maybe a feat or two if you wanna be better at it, but my horse is much faster and allows me to pick off your stuffs with magic horse running puts 240' between you, Allip covers 120'/round, therefore full move every other round allowing the horse to be still while you cast, and easily keep space. And horses have enough wis to survive for one round

Edit: Now I must ask, how many teleporting level 3 magi have you made

Babble's 60 ft and at level 3, all of your combat spells are close range. Sorry, you have to go within range.

It's not that they can teleport at level 3, it's that you know they will be a able to teleport later on and thus don't invest in things like mounted casting.

[qube]

Originally Posted by Bridgar

Ignoring 40% of the unsupplemented game is not realistic...

again, i don't know where you get I want to ignore stuff - not to mention 40 percent.

(q: if we talk about ignoring, how many percent spells have DCs?)

That's exactly what I'm saying. If the generalist is better at doing your job than you, the specialist, you are incompetent.

then you can't deny you say everyone except punpun is broken. because he is a generalist who does it better.
I hope you see the folly of your quote.

No, but if you're saying that 40% of unsupplemented Dnd is broken, you need to play another game.

I never ever said that. in fact I said that everything (not 40%) CAN be broken.

Fine, he opens with Cone of Cold. It still doesn't kill the barbarian on average.

only thanks to your last level. he kills the ECL3 variant - and since we're talking about ECL3 thats good enough for me.

It's basically whomever goes first wins. Doesn't that say something about your beloved CR system if an unoptimized ECL 4 Barbarian can take down a CR 8 monster if he goes first?

unoptimized? lol. i hope you're not serious?
what is Spirit Lion and what is Half-Ogre if not optimizing?

Even if the Ogre Mage goes first, Cone of cold does average 33 damage, dropping the Barbarian to 18

Grog has 36 hp, not 52. he gets dropped to 4. if he does this during supprize(thx invis/change shape) or flight, Grog dies during round 1 of actual melee combat.

If CR measures power, an Allip under my control shouldn't be able to defeat a 12-headed hydra under the DMs control.

what does Allip under my control have to do with the CR of the Allip?

I'm not moving the goalpost. 1v1 ~ 4v4, does it not?

no, it doesn't
(4 Grogs DEFFINATELY can't take 4 cone of cols (36d6)

Because that's what people using your arguments are arguing for, banning tier 1s/powerful things. They have this idea that power=broken, which it does not.

perhaps. but Im against banning in a void.
banning builds? sure. banning çombos? why not.
but if you maka a balanced PC as DvR0 paragon? sure, go ahead.

I noticed again that you picked and chose what arguments to respond to. You have yet to explain why Ogre Magi and Hydras have higher CR than Allips when Allips have a much more significant impact on the party post-battle

because post-battle is usually waved away. (like the party usually happens to find a cleric who can cast raise dead/ressurection, if a beloved PC died - and some NPC patron is willing to pay for it if *next quest*).

Also, you have yet to address my issues with the EL system. Do you think a level 1 Barbarian should be able to take on an Orc alone? Or is he broken?

what has the EL system to do with that?

either way, as long as the limitation is "build a lvl X character", you can't do much about levels.

you you're OK with immunity to everything but not high saves?

yes and no. saves make you immune to a lot of stuff.
I'm ok with 'this guy happened to be immune to fire'
(pyromancer vs fire immune? look, it happens)
I'm ok (but to a lesser extend) with 'this guy happened to be immune to fortitude attacks'
I'm ok with 'this golem happened to be immune to magic'
they are antiwizard. it happens.

I'm not ok with wizards who can get to DC35, and enemies who's weakest save is around +40. that indicates a flaw in the game system.

when you ask, what should be the normal save of a monster (or PC if pvp is allowed), then it should be one that a normal spellcaster could get.

"probably. But that has nothing to do with CR." doesn't it? (Allip &cleric topic)

I mean, if the entry would say CR100 instead of 3, that wouldn't change anything. he can still as easely be controlled.

Yes, if you build the character with the sole purpose of killing an Allip, you can take them on. I've never, in all the years that I've played Dnd, seen a level 3 mounted spellcaster.

I played a lvl 1 once.

you've never seen a mounted caster? What about a mounted archer than?

at lvl 1, itsn't that the same ?

[drack]

I return to the bold

Originally Posted by Bridgar

Babble's 60 ft and at level 3, all of your combat spells are close range. Sorry, you have to go within range.
Magic missile, the iconic spell has 100+10/level... I don't see where you're getting this...
It's not that they can teleport at level 3, it's that you know they will be a able to teleport later on and thus don't invest in things like mounted casting.
So what's a few ranks in ride, maybe you're getting the iconic dragon mounted caster later

Originally Posted by qube

(q: if we talk about ignoring, how many percent spells have DCs?) About as many as insta-kill on a save, about as many as deal decent damage, as many as allot of things. The thing to remember is that in high epic you don't forsake all spells with DC, you just minimize the attack ones with saves. you find plenty of lower level NPCs that they work great on, you find plenty of utility spells that are still open, and your new attack spells are about as good. It essentially just hinders PVP... didn't you say that you wanted it more balanced in that regard? Also it's not as if your functionality is really dropping...

what does Allip under my control have to do with the CR of the Allip? That I now have a CR3 creature versing a CR-X creature and it becomes relevant that they are different CR and the one is better

"DvR0 paragon" Yes, but players balance to their own code, that's why DMs ban, to line the codes up better

yes and no. saves make you immune to a lot of stuff.
I'm ok with 'this guy happened to be immune to fire'
(pyromancer vs fire immune? look, it happens)
I'm ok (but to a lesser extend) with 'this guy happened to be immune to fortitude attacks'
I'm ok with 'this golem happened to be immune to magic'
they are antiwizard. it happens.but if I happened to have DC60 saves and that wizard couldn't insta-kill me it's more broken than were I immune to magic as a whole?

I'm not ok with wizards who can get to DC35, and enemies who's weakest save is around +40. that indicates a flaw in the game system. One that is easily worked around, wizards are meant o think of these things, what else to they go to their arcane universities for?

when you ask, what should be the normal save of a monster (or PC if pvp is allowed), then it should be one that a normal spellcaster could get. define normal, and how does me being able to kill you with this spell and that one rather than me being able to kill you with that one balance you? True the latter tends to do less, but isn't that you just being strong enough to need more powerful magic to down you?

at lvl 1, itsn't that the same ?
Mostly

[qube]

Originally Posted by drack

I return to the bold

the bold band the beau... undead

I twart your boldliness with my PURPLE! ha!...

That I now have a CR3 creature versing a CR-X creature and it becomes relevant that they are different CR and the one is better

obviously, but game-technically, that doesn't change much (not any more then having a pink allip with yellow polka dots)

as said, CR is never intended as a universal measurement but as an party-vs-monster measurement.

"DvR0 paragon" Yes, but players balance to their own code, that's why DMs ban, to line the codes up better

obviously. its like speed limits: you don't need to like them, but they are there for a reason.

but if I happened to have DC60 saves and that wizard couldn't insta-kill me it's more broken than were I immune to magic as a whole?

no, if you happen to be an anti-wizard (like a golem). golems can be taken down using other means. I don't care if golems are immune to magic or just have high saves.

it becomes a problem if you're a anti-everything-except-one-and-Im-not-gonna-tell-you; because then basically, you re as powerful as a anti-everything.

One that is easily worked around, wizards are meant o think of these things, what else to they go to their arcane universities for

wizards yes. players no. - I tried getting in to Hoggwart but they arrested me in the trainstation for continuously trying to run through a wall ...

when you ask, what should be the normal save of a monster (or PC if pvp is allowed), then it should be one that a normal spellcaster could get.
define normal,

the first or the second normal ?

- the first is the save of the virtual average monster that would be considered a moderate challenge for the party (average monster, because as said, a moderate challenge antiwizard could have higher saves)

- the second is defined by the level of optimalisation that is not considered cheesy.

[drack]

I twart your boldliness with my PURPLE! ha!... Bold shall prevail!
obviously, but game-technically, that doesn't change much (not any more then having a pink allip with yellow polka dots)

as said, CR is never intended as a universal measurement but as an party-vs-monster measurement.
So my level 4 that commands an Allip (with a Phylactery of Undead Turning rebuking) means that a CR8 should be too tough and the CR3 is ignored as part of party strength?
obviously. its like speed limits: you don't need to like them, but they are there for a reason.
Yes, but in a world where people rarely listen to them just not making race cars works just as well
no, if you happen to be an anti-wizard (like a golem). golems can be taken down using other means. I don't care if golems are immune to magic or just have high saves.
So as long as the divine mandate says I can't be affected you don't care, but if I'm just not affected there's beef?
it becomes a problem if you're a anti-everything-except-one-and-Im-not-gonna-tell-you; because then basically, you re as powerful as a anti-everything.
I'm not talking about that, I'm just talking about high saves. (so if you wanna exaggerate, assume I roll all 20s), than you know exactly what won't work, and honestly if your DM makes up a new type of golem you don't know that it's a golem and immune to magic or what, you can only guess and try. I'm pretty sure bridgar's leaving more than one weakness...
wizards yes. players no. - I tried getting in to Hoggwart but they arrested me in the trainstation for continuously trying to run through a wall ...
don't listen to them, they're just jealous No but in all honesty read the book once (or just the spell section) and you'll have a fare arsenal, learn through experience what works and what doesn't. put thought into preparation, or be something without those constraints if you don't wanna.
the first or the second normal ?

- the first is the save of the virtual average monster that would be considered a moderate challenge for the party (average monster, because as said, a moderate challenge antiwizard could have higher saves)

- the second is defined by the level of optimalisation that is not considered cheesy.
You said that they should both be around the same, so what should we consider average in say a level 30 game?

and where does a lvel of optimization become cheesy?

[qube]

back in black

Originally Posted by drack

So my level 4 that commands an Allip (with a Phylactery of Undead Turning rebuking) means that a CR8 should be too tough and the CR3 is ignored as part of party strength?

no. that would mean you're broken (irrelevant of the CRnumber of allip)

So as long as the divine mandate says I can't be affected you don't care, but if I'm just not affected there's beef?

hmmm basically yes, because the DMs priority is the story/game fun/... and your's isn't

I'm not talking about that, I'm just talking about high saves. (so if you wanna exaggerate, assume I roll all 20s), than you know exactly what won't work, and honestly if your DM makes up a new type of golem you don't know that it's a golem and immune to magic or what, you can only guess and try.

indeed, but as stated, the DMs priority is the story/game fun/...
in PvP the objective is usually to win.

I'm pretty sure bridgar's leaving more than one weakness...

which realistically can be found and used before he minces me to chopsticks?

so what should we consider average in say a level 30 game?

if pvp is allowed? what other players have

and where does a lvel of optimization become cheesy?

thats for the DM to decide.


btw, sideQ: know a way for a wilder to get energy missle (normally Kineticist only)

[Bridgar]

Originally Posted by qube

again, i don't know where you get I want to ignore stuff - not to mention 40 percent.

(q: if we talk about ignoring, how many percent spells have DCs?)

Sorry, 36.36%. I missed one of the classes in my count, somehow. 4/11 base classes in the PHB are, in your words, tier 1 and broken. You say that we cannot use them as an example because they're broken. What do you say we do with them, then?

then you can't deny you say everyone except punpun is broken. because he is a generalist who does it better.
I hope you see the folly of your quote.

PunPun has infinite loops. What part of infinite loops are broken and should be thrown out did you miss?

only thanks to your last level. he kills the ECL3 variant - and since we're talking about ECL3 thats good enough for me.

Alright, then. ECL 4 wins half the time and ECL 5 wins all the time. This still illustrates the failures of the CR system.

unoptimized? lol. i hope you're not serious?
what is Spirit Lion and what is Half-Ogre if not optimizing?

That isn't optimized... Optimized would be Feral Half-Dragon Half-Ogre with 1 level in Barbarian.

Grog has 36 hp, not 52. he gets dropped to 4. if he does this during supprize(thx invis/change shape) or flight, Grog dies during round 1 of actual melee combat.

ECL 5 Grog has 52 hp. ECL 5 Grog wins every time against the CR 8 Ogre Mage. Can you explain that to me?

no, it doesn't
(4 Grogs DEFFINATELY can't take 4 cone of cols (36d6)

Yes, because having a party of 4 glass cannons totally makes sense...

No, Grog's Party would consist of a Rogue who dodges the Cones of Cold for no damage, a wizard who wouldn't rush into battle and get hit, and a Cleric who would heal Grog from afar, ensuring his victory. Don't forget, Grog would also have buffs on him from his fellow party members.

because post-battle is usually waved away. (like the party usually happens to find a cleric who can cast raise dead/ressurection, if a beloved PC died - and some NPC patron is willing to pay for it if *next quest*).

I'm astounded. What's the point of battle if it has no consequences??? What DM in their right mind would wave away the consequences of a battle? That defeats the purpose of the game. If you always win, no matter how terrible you are, what's the point???

what has the EL system to do with that?

This:

Originally Posted by Bridgar

According to EL, A level 2 Barbarian is incapable of taking down a CR 1 Krenshar without help. It says that a level 1 Barbarian cannot kill a single orc without assistance. It says that A level 9 Barbarian cannot kill an Ogre Mage without help, a feat that I have shown an ECL 5 Barbarian can do.

The EL system says that A level 2 Barbarian cannot kill a horse without help, as it is a "very difficult encounter" and he "must pull out all the stops."

[drack]

back in black Bold all the way

no. that would mean you're broken (irrelevant of the CRnumber of allip) well I would have said level 6 when you can auto-command it anyways, but than it's slightly less relevant that it's just the allip against the hydra or whatever it was because my point was illustrating how that could be important.

hmmm basically yes, because the DMs priority is the story/game fun/... and your's isn't No, mine is, otherwise I wouldn't be nurfing my character when lower op come out and beefing it up when they don't, Personally I care more for the fluff and just don't see why everyone has such a problem matching any party level.

indeed, but as stated, the DMs priority is the story/game fun/...
in PvP the objective is usually to win.
which realistically can be found and used before he minces me to chopsticks? Well there are two ways to do this: bridgar will likely have Regeneration, now you could look at his sheet, but besides that your two methods are:
A) send in a bunch of people to hack at him till he gets knocked out, and have them keep hacking while you try various methods.
B) trap him in a magic circle... ...forever... or discover his weakness while he's contained. As I said don't underestimate armies, they easily triumph over any enemy, and so even a bunch of low op have that much more power especially once banded togather.

if pvp is allowed? what other players have
So far that's a little outside the range most spellcasters can achieve, so what's the problem with it?
thats for the DM to decide.
yup, but I'm asking you

btw, sideQ: know a way for a wilder to get energy missle (normally Kineticist only)
Bridgar may be able to answer this better...


Yes, because having a party of 4 glass cannons totally makes sense...

No, Grog's Party would consist of a Rogue who dodges the Cones of Cold for no damage, a wizard who wouldn't rush into battle and get hit, and a Cleric who would heal Grog from afar, ensuring his victory. Don't forget, Grog would also have buffs on him from his fellow party members. Do we get to customize the monster team too?

I'm astounded. What's the point of battle if it has no consequences??? What DM in their right mind would wave away the consequences of a battle? That defeats the purpose of the game. If you always win, no matter how terrible you are, what's the point???
It digs a deep hole in your pocket making your party weaker in the future, and there will likely be level loss

Ah yes, and for the record I only have marginal faith in the CR system in that good DMs can make almost anything work, but I nitpick, and bridgar's ego can take it.

[qube]

Originally Posted by Bridgar

Sorry, 36.36%. I missed one of the classes in my count, somehow. 4/11 base classes in the PHB are, in your words, tier 1 and broken. You say that we cannot use them as an example because they're broken. What do you say we do with them, then?

you can still play with them, but a tier1 class can per definition be better then all other tier classes.
f you work with extremes (ignoring entire classes) and say "qube says you should ignore 40% becuse they are broken"
the reverse is "Bridgar says you should ignore 60% becuse they are underpowered"

In the end, my point is, you basically say a wizard does it better.- not really a good criterium for balance, as a wizard does EVERYTHING better (as per definition of tier1).

PunPun has infinite loops. What part of infinite loops are broken and should be thrown out did you miss?

the fact that you don't consider. near-infinite-loops and it-might-as-well-be-considered-infinite-loops

once you need to fumble to fail a save, it does not matter if you have reflex 40 or 4000000.

Alright, then. ECL 4 wins half the time and ECL 5 wins all the time. This still illustrates the failures of the CR system.

or that you have a overpowered or specialized or lucky build. (if you didn't have reach, the ogre mage would obliterate your barbarian).

there is a reason why I opted to use a CR+10 difference.

That isn't optimized...

odd. I'dd say the half ogre is the optimized version of the half orc.

ECL 5 Grog has 52 hp. ECL 5 Grog wins every time against the CR 8 Ogre Mage. Can you explain that to me?

what happened to ECL3 Grog !? seriously, this is almost litterly moving the goal post!
- ecl3 baribarian can take on ogre mage with ease.
- no wait, I got an ecl4 right here.
- look, an ecl5 could beat him!

Yes, because having a party of 4 glass cannons totally makes sense...

1vs1 tilde 4vs4, right?

I'm astounded. What's the point of battle if it has no consequences??

no consequence? you saved the world !?
(you don't dm much, do you?)

According to EL, A level 2 Barbarian is incapable of taking down a CR 1 Krenshar without help

book? page?

thats for the DM to decide.
yup, but I'm asking you

if i were DMming? I would consult the players an loop for common grond.

[drack]

Originally Posted by qube

qube

... I feel ignored...

Anywho BLASTER:
OK, I'll tell you beforehand that I think this is a bit strong for a few reasons, and people here can toss it around, and you may defend your class fare enough?
link for the benefit of everyone else http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...0#post12061490
SO I'll speak underlined for this section

BAB+15 for a blaster seems a bit high...


spells: the blaster doesn't prepare or cast like a normal caster. he does not expend any of his spells by casting them. to cast a spell, he must have it shaped. casting a spell is normally a standard action, though certen augments can be added to shorten or increase this time. after the blaster casts the spell, the spell is unusable for an amount of rounds equal to its ESL -1 per five blaster levels. the DC for spells cast by the blaster is equal to 10+the ESL+the blasters highest mental score. the blaster's spells are affected by arcane spell failure.
So basically infinite spells from an unspecified list which get augmented, after all spell level-1/5levvels gives quite a few, I mean cast for 20, time stop to recover, rinse and repeat. or is this essentially a glorified warlock with an un-elderich blast? If so I'd word it more clearly.

damage type
all elemental damages>physical damages (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing)>force>untyped, not subject to any DR, resistance, or immunities.
meta magic feats can be added to the spell, at their normal cost in spell levels.

Soul power: due to the magic inherent in the blaster, any spells granted by classes other than blaster deal untyped, not subject to any DR, resistance, or immunities damage to the blaster equal to the blasters blaster level.
OK, I do not believe that I have heard of damage unaffected by DR, immunities, and resistance... now I've heard of some rather obscure energy forms from which there is little or no resistance/immunity, but this one smells funny.

speed shape:the blaster can shape spells as a standard action at 7th level, a move action at 13th, a swift action at 16th, and a free action at 20th.

with

spell mine:starting at 14th level, a blaster may create special spells. these spells can be placed with a set of triggering conditions, that when met, cause the spell to be cast in a way you predetermined. a spell shaped in this way can't have its casting time changed to raise or lower the spells level. creating this spell uses spell levels normally required to shape the spell. you can't shape other spells with these spell levels until the spell is triggered. this can not be done with spells prepared from scrolls, or any other way other than normal spell shaping.

and

spell field:starting at 17th level, a blaster can make a variation on a spell mine. the spell feild makes a number of the spell mine equal to a quarter of the blasters blaster level. these all have the same spell imbedded in them as the orgional spell mine. they only take up as a group an amount of spell levels equal to the original spell. all of these spell mines trigger simultaneously when one of them meets the triggering conditions. making a spell field takes one round per spell mine.

(and of course soul power)

with 2d6/spell level. lets say I have 4 level 20 spell mines that I set to go off when I cast a non-spell-mine spell, so I cast them as a free action, a level 20 as a standard and a free action, and cast one as 10 for a swift and free action so here I get (34d6)*4+34d6+10d6 of this untyped damage, or if I empower all but the last I get (2400damage that ignores DR and immunities+10d6 of the same) Now you knock out bridgar with a level 20 without any real effort, in fact you may even knock out his one that 'doesn't have a weakness'. (I don't think I heard the exact HP, but 2400+ isn't shrugged off quite so easily...) Anyways my point is that's a bit much damage for a level 21 no?


In the end the class is too strong in some areas and as gaping holes in others. for instance you can't touch any epic rogue.

[qube]

Originally Posted by drack

... I feel ignored...

then stop tying things I can't disagree with!

lets give it a closer look

whatever it was because my point was illustrating how that could be important.

I never said that the abscence of a allip was unimportant, but irrelevant to the CR of the allip. Basically the allip gives you a way to one-up every animal(-like) monster. cool, but that's not really relevant to how much of an effort the allip is to an average party of PCs ...

No, mine is, otherwise I wouldn't be nurfing my character when lower op

nerving, by ... for example lowering your save so I could hit you ?

A) send in a bunch of people to hack at him till he gets knocked out, and have them keep hacking while you try various methods.
B) trap him in a magic circle... ...forever...

OK, but (A) is not always applicable. If you're having a conversations to discussion to intimidate to combat.
(B) "If the called creature has spell resistance, it can test the trap once a day" paragon has (or could have) SR 55. don't think I can't get that high - and if I didn't know he was a paragon, It's now his turn. (after about half of his attack I recon my CON will be dropped to zero)

btw, sideQ: know a way for a wilder to get energy missle (normally Kineticist only)
Bridgar may be able to answer this better...

Bridgar?
(if you do? I can also make a more powerfull character, and then I can't complain as much )

OK, I do not believe that I have heard of damage unaffected by DR, immunities, and resistance

A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack deals 1d6 points of damage.

Anywho BLASTER:

haven't read it all, but I think it's kinda strange it doesn't use the normal rules. For example, quicken uses 2 spell levels. In spellcasting, it's 4 levels, in psionics it's 8 points (as a point is equivalent to a class level)

[drack]

Still underlining
then stop tying things I can't disagree with!
Ha-ha-ha-ha
lets give it a closer look

whatever it was because my point was illustrating how that could be important.
I never said that the abscence of a allip was unimportant, but irrelevant to the CR of the allip. Basically the allip gives you a way to one-up every animal(-like) monster. cool, but that's not really relevant to how much of an effort the allip is to an average party of PCs ...Ah, suppose that's fare enough...

No, mine is, otherwise I wouldn't be nurfing my character when lower op
nerving, by ... for example lowering your save so I could hit you ?
Yes, so you can hit it without me auto-failing my saves against your spells, in fact it'd probably still take awesome DCs to get un-optimized epics to fail them as saves naturally increase faster than spell levels So honest;y I'd be more likely to lower AC, but this character was actually built on a sliding scale so that it could easily adjust it's op up and down without changing much. I still don't see why you want insta-kills to work so well, I mean a 1/20 is fare against an epic player no?


A) send in a bunch of people to hack at him till he gets knocked out, and have them keep hacking while you try various methods.
B) trap him in a magic circle... ...forever...
OK, but (A) is not always applicable. If you're having a conversations to discussion to intimidate to combat.
Ever heard of a messenger, talking through magical means, or otherwise not being a foot in front of him? Even a nice big hallway works for that Or you could always have your army on standby while you're there and gate them in...

(B) "If the called creature has spell resistance, it can test the trap once a day" paragon has (or could have) SR 55. don't think I can't get that high - and if I didn't know he was a paragon, It's now his turn. (after about half of his attack I recon my CON will be dropped to zero)
you can't? lets see, CL+1d20>55, so CL 35-54, there are a few ways to do this, consumptive field gives *1.5, and 30*1.5=45, red wizard lets you raise it to 40 by giving up other spells/day, I hear nodes do it, but I haven't bothered to look them up, and there are plenty of little bonuses you can find (I can PM you some if you'd like), and if I recall sanctified ones get something too...


A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack deals 1d6 points of damage.
And now I have All the same I don't think that ignores DR, or the infamous immunity to damage

haven't read it all, but I think it's kinda strange it doesn't use the normal rules. For example, quicken uses 2 spell levels. In spellcasting, it's 4 levels, in psionics it's 8 points (as a point is equivalent to a class level) I thought so too, but I figured it's offset by not being able to use standard methods of lowering level costs of these abilities...

[qube]

Originally Posted by drack

I still don't see why you want insta-kills to work so well, I mean a 1/20 is fare against an epic player no?

well, truthfully, I don't. from a game-development POV insta-killing is IMO stupid.

However I want that fireball (well ... firestorm - to use the higher spell) / Horrid Wilting / <augmented psi power> / ... to be able to hit.

instagib is bad - but making over half(?) of the spells basically useless is also bad.

(which is why I usually opt for good*, but doable saves, and mindblank (no dominate junk) and death ward (most save or die junk) )

*as fighter , I like my protection from mages.

Originally Posted by drack

Ever heard of a messenger, talking through magical means, or otherwise not being a foot in front of him?

I'm usually face to face with partymemebers, and messengers are so ... associal

you can't? lets see, CL+1d20>55, so CL 35-54, there are a few ways to do this, consumptive field gives *1.5, and 30*1.5=45, red wizard lets you raise it to 40 by giving up other spells/day

know any psionic ways? :evil grin:

And now I have All the same I don't think that ignores DR, or the infamous immunity to damage

dunno. but it's only 1d6. no other modifiers. Not really wow for lvl 30

[qube]

found it
Epic Expanded Knowledge: any power, even not from class list

[Bridgar]

Originally Posted by qube

you can still play with them, but a tier1 class can per definition be better then all other tier classes.
f you work with extremes (ignoring entire classes) and say "qube says you should ignore 40% becuse they are broken"
the reverse is "Bridgar says you should ignore 60% becuse they are underpowered"

I'm not saying to ignore them. I have levels of Fighter, Monk, and Paladin in my build. I'm saying that if you're going to judge the

In the end, my point is, you basically say a wizard does it better.- not really a good criterium for balance, as a wizard does EVERYTHING better (as per definition of tier1).

Not true. My level 30 gestalt can kill any wizard that he gets within 10 feet of (not very difficult with his move speed). I don't have a single level in a tier 1 class.

once you need to fumble to fail a save, it does not matter if you have reflex 40 or 4000000.

Well made characters get luck rerolls and fumbles mean nothing to them.

or that you have a overpowered or specialized or lucky build. (if you didn't have reach, the ogre mage would obliterate your barbarian).

there is a reason why I opted to use a CR+10 difference.

odd. I'dd say the half ogre is the optimized version of the half orc.

Half-Orc is inherently unoptimized... It has a net loss to stats and no special abilities to its name other than the fact that it's weak to things that affect humans and things that affect Orcs. The Half-Ogre is the Half-Orc fix...

what happened to ECL3 Grog !? seriously, this is almost litterly moving the goal post!
- ecl3 baribarian can take on ogre mage with ease.
- no wait, I got an ecl4 right here.
- look, an ecl5 could beat him!

No, I haven't moved the goalpost, you just view my goals differently than I do. The CR system is still unreliable, which was my point. A Level 5 can defeat a CR 8 100% of the time. It only takes a few examples to prove that the system doesn't work.

no consequence? you saved the world !?
(you don't dm much, do you?)

The consequences of the battle, not the whole campaign. You don't DM very well, do you? As a DM, you use the CR system, which implies that you don't give character levels to monsters. That makes your games a breeze unless you ban everything worthwhile, in which case no one wants to play your games. Even if you go along with the whole 'I can't play anything competent' thing, it doesn't matter because you can never lose. After every battle, everything's put back to perfect condition because there's never any consequences to losing battles in your games. You could play a level 1 Commoner with 8 in every stat and still beat the campaign, losing every battle. What's the point?


The rules for EL, by the way, are on pages 48 and 49 of the DMG.