The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

[Iamyourking]

This will be the last bump, just to remind you to go to the link if you want to read it since it has gotten too long for the forum. Comments are fine either here or there, but if I don't get any more here I'm going to let the thread die and update entirely via the Google Document (Although of course I am more than happy to continue posting here assuming that anybody else shows interest). I remain mostly interesting in mechanical comments, since I have plenty of ideas but am unclear as to how good of a job I did representing them, although I certainly won't turn down setting based ideas. Most of all though I am looking for DMs who are willing to use this in their campaigns and can provide commentary on what their players thought and how well my adventure hooks worked out.

(Pokonic, you have my thanks for your contributions in both mediums; if it wern't for you I would have given up under the assumption that nobody cared about my work)

[SamBurke]

I believe this is within the Thread Posting time limit, if not, my apologies.

IF YOU ARE THE PLAYER FROM HEROES AND HISTORY, AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, NO FURTHER, PLEASE.




I will say that this is a FANTASTIC piece of work, if dauntingly long at first glance. Looking through it, though, it's very fun to read, and can be put in most campaign settings, albeit with a bit of handwaving.

I do intend to use it in my campaign, Heroes and History (log in sig), but I may scale some things down. The hints I dropped about an ancient race are more eight to 12 foot sized, as opposed of the 15 of the Avvim. That said, it's good to have them all.

Question: you mention one of the chars as a Warblade, but don't have his maneuvers. Was this intentional?

PEACHing:

One thing I'd do is break up the text. Whilst it does flow nicely enough, I'm used to reading big text. People will look at it more if you space out those paragraphs, and have a break every time a new idea, person, or thought is introduced. I'd double-enter every time there's a paragraph, to give the illusion of more space.

I may also introduce a section of "how to use this in your game", somewhere near the beginning, as a way to draw in DMs and encourage them to take parts or all of the setting and ideas.

[Iamyourking]

First off, I am overjoyed that not only is someone taking an interest in my work, but they are also interested in using it. You could make it fit your campaign perfectly well without any tweaking by saying that your giants are Gittim (Or perhaps Gittite-Avvite hybrids) who fled persecution; thereby providing a potential adventure hook for the players as they follow the ancient records left behind back to Hinnom (Or what's left of it, as I mentioned two ways it could be destroyed and hinted at a few others). I'll try to read your campaign log and get back to you with a more specific response once I know more of the details.

If you want clarification on some minor point that I didn't mention, don't hesitate to PM me; thinking of answers for these things helps me expand my grasp of the concept. In return, I'd like it if you (Which includes anyone who might want to use it) asked me before making changes for your campaign. I probably won't be offended, after all it's meant to be used and I certainly can't stop you, but I'd like to at least know how people are using my work.

Originally Posted by SamBurke

Question: you mention one of the chars as a Warblade, but don't have his maneuvers. Was this intentional?

I'm unsure what you mean, the only Warblade I mentioned is the Dawn Guard; but they are a group, not a character, and I listed their maneuvers. "Most Dawn Guard know the Charging Minotaur, Leading the Attack, Moment of Perfect Mind, Mountain Hammer, and Wall of Blades maneuvers at Initiator Level 10 and the stance Leading the Charge." I did mention that companies of Avvite warriors are led by Rephaite warblades, but that is also not a character and these things are almost never statted; e.g. how most entries for Humanoids in the Monster Manual include ones with class levels in their Organization section.

Originally Posted by SamBurke

One thing I'd do is break up the text. Whilst it does flow nicely enough, I'm used to reading big text. People will look at it more if you space out those paragraphs, and have a break every time a new idea, person, or thought is introduced. I'd double-enter every time there's a paragraph, to give the illusion of more space.

Done, it was an unfortunate relic of how these forums don't like paragraph breaks and of course it wouldn't seem as dense to the author.

Originally Posted by SamBurke

I may also introduce a section of "how to use this in your game", somewhere near the beginning, as a way to draw in DMs and encourage them to take parts or all of the setting and ideas.

Edit: Ok, done. Is there anything else you think it needs?

Overall, keep it up. You've already become the second most helpful contributor and I wouldn't consider it impossible for you to surpass Pokonic.

[Iamyourking]

Well, this marks the 1-year anniversary of starting the project (Really, check the time). I was expecting this to be a quick side work to give me something to do while taking a break from Gates of Heaven, but it's ballooned into a quite substantial project by itself. A few months ago it broke the text limit for a given post, and pasted into Microsoft Word it comprises 22 single spaced pages and 13,775 words. To commerate this I've added an acknowledgements section for everyone who has played a role in getting it this far; both on and off this forum. However, I remain disappointed in how few people have posted anything to say. Is it because the Google Documents format makes it difficult to see when I've made changes and where the changes are, or am I and my work really that uninteresting? Anyways, here's hoping that I get this finished before another year has passed and that I get more than five people to show an interest in it in the future!

Edit: Shoot, the little clock at the bottom doesn't actually move forward when I'm in a posting window. Sorry, one year and eight minutes!

[Tanuki Tales]

5 weeks by my count, so this shouldn't be necromancy.


My comments:

• Why is the Spell Resistance so low on the sample Rephaite Soldier? It's usually 11+HD, but this seems to be 1+HD. In fact, by Natural Sorcery, they should have SR 26.
• The Kohen doesn't have its hit dice split between racial and class hit dice. And its SR is off as well. Also, things are usually rounded down, not up, so these guys should have 16th level casting, not 17th.
• You didn't mention the Level Adjustment or Racial HD in the Racial Traits.
• I don't know if 3 levels in Warblade is worth a +4 CR bump.
• Still working on the Ammi?
• Why don't the Horim have a racial stats write up?
• Since the needs of the varying races are so high, how do they provide for themselves in the unforgiving landscape they call home? More importantly, how do they support the hedonism of the Nephilim?
• How did orcs kill a Rephaite?
• What are the Ba'al exactly?
• So Janni aren't Outsiders if this setting is used? Since you speak of them more like Tieflings or Aasimar in your write up.
• Shouldn't Marruspawn Abominations (one of my favorite Sandstorm creatures to be honest) be beefed up to be at least equals to any Nephilim if this setting is used?
• How exactly are Efreeti weaker? With a slave caste of non-Genies they can unleash their innate reality editing powers at their leisure.
• Who does Azazel replace in the Lords of the Nine?
• How do the varying good realms view Hinnom? What about the Underdark?
• What happens if a bound outsider enters Hinnom? Something Gated in would be fine, but what about Planar Binding?

Overall, I really like this setting, but then again I love any adaptations of mythology.

[Iamyourking]

Originally Posted by Troll Brau

Why is the Spell Resistance so low on the sample Rephaite Soldier? It's usually 11+HD, but this seems to be 1+HD. In fact, by Natural Sorcery, they should have SR 26.

Fixed and Natural Sorcery beefed up. I may tinker with the numbers after testing how well it stands up to a level appropriate caster.

The Kohen doesn't have its hit dice split between racial and class hit dice. And its SR is off as well. Also, things are usually rounded down, not up, so these guys should have 16th level casting, not 17th.

I didn't split them because they were both D8 and that's how I've always seen it done. Done anyways, with spell resistance and casting fixed.

You didn't mention the Level Adjustment or Racial HD in the Racial Traits.

Fixed

I don't know if 3 levels in Warblade is worth a +4 CR bump.

Three levels in an associated class and elite array isn't worth +4? What would you suggested instead?

Still working on the Ammi?

Yes, I was holding off on some of the mechanical aspects until I got more attention, especially since I don't like preparing spell lists.

Why don't the Horim have a racial stats write up?

I forgot and wasn't really expecting anyone to want to play them. They have one now.

Since the needs of the varying races are so high, how do they provide for themselves in the unforgiving landscape they call home? More importantly, how do they support the hedonism of the Nephilim?

I guess I wasn't totally clear about that, but the area in which they actually live is basically Egypt from a climate standpoint; it's relatively cool compared to the open desert and the rivers provide rich silt. Combine that with the fact that the mages in Semyaza's school have access to spells that grow plants and animals and promote fertility (Plant Growth for one, plus some custom spells that go unstatted because they are useless in combat) and the other mages can do similar things with the sun, clouds, and earth and you've got plenty of ability to grow crops and livestock. As for the Nephilim, there's at most five of them actually still living among their children; they consume a lot but they aren't that big of a drain. I may remove the whole eating Heroes Feasts for appetizers thing though, since it's kind of silly in retrospect.

How did orcs kill a Rephaite?

That's a case of letting the rules slide for the sake of drama; I figured they hacked his legs out from under him with a few dozen blows from their great axes and then did the same to his head. I'll try and change it to something more plausible; the point was more to get Anak in charge of both cities without having to conquer them.

What are the Ba'al exactly?

Basically just Rephaim as old and pure-blooded as the Melquarts, but who went into magic instead of the sword. Unfortunately, the way the system works means that they have barely any reason to share power with the Melquarts, so I'll have to think of something to do about that.

So Janni aren't Outsiders if this setting is used? Since you speak of them more like Tieflings or Aasimar in your write up.

Ok, that was just a stupid mistake on my part. I just reference the SRD if I need to check the core rules since my physical copies are falling apart and I thought that because they live on the material plane and have the Native subtype that they wern't actual Outsiders. It shouldn't be too hard to fix, since it doesn't effect their relationship too much.

Shouldn't Marruspawn Abominations (one of my favorite Sandstorm creatures to be honest) be beefed up to be at least equals to any Nephilim if this setting is used?

I guess you could, but I'd advise against it. The Nephilim are mostly in the mid to late 30s CR wise, with Raamah breaking 40; and if they decided to get up and starting doing things there is basically nothing that could stop them. If there was something at that level of power who actually wanted to destroy Hinnom it would probably already be destroyed, either by the Abomination or through the collateral damage of stopping it. That said, advancing an Abomination to 31 HD and making it Huge would make it a credible, but not insurmountable, threat to the Rephaim.

How exactly are Efreeti weaker? With a slave caste of non-Genies they can unleash their innate reality editing powers at their leisure.

Because they're CR 8 and the Ba'als are CR 24 and Wish aside have barely a fraction of the arcane might of their Rephaite contacts. You have a point though, in that having that free of access to Wish has definite setting breaking powers. I blame Pokonic, since including them was his idea.

Who does Azazel replace in the Lords of the Nine?

Nobody, he's an Arch-Devil not a Lord. I suppose I should explain; Arch-Devil is the title given to exceptionally powerful and unique Devils (And other Lawful Evil outsiders allied with Baator) who don't really fit into the regular hierarchy. They can be deposed former Lords like Geryon, Gargauth, Adremmalech, and Sammael; totally unique entities that nobody is really sure how to handle like Lixer and Glasya (and Fierna to a lesser extent due to her status as formal co-ruler of Phlegthos but practical subservience to her father); and people that Asmodeus wants to keep an eye on and occasionally call in favors from without having them formally affiliated with him like Eblis and the other Semyaza (This is where Azazel falls).

How do the varying good realms view Hinnom? What about the Underdark?

I'll add a section on the Underdark, but the opinion of the various good realms is up to the DM who uses it; since it's supposed to be insertable into a pre-existing campaign as sort of a lost land where the players can adventure without having to worry about adapting it too much to their campaign. Would it be sufficient to add a bit about how most common races would think about it?

What happens if a bound outsider enters Hinnom? Something Gated in would be fine, but what about Planar Binding?

I'm not sure. Just letting it in would be going against the spirit of the rule, which is to prevent Outsiders from entering; but on the other hand they don't have any trouble entering anti-magic fields, which also prevent the spell from being cast. I think I'll go with allowing them to enter but the binding will be broken if they spend too much time in there. Part of the idea was to make Gate less awesome, but I suppose you can have a Gated outsider if you go to the trouble of bringing it in outside of Hinnom and then travelling conventionally to where you need it.

Overall, I really like this setting, but then again I love any adaptations of mythology.

I'm glad to hear it. I'll be sure to add you to the credits and do what I can to implement your suggestion.

[Pokonic]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

I blame Pokonic, since including them was his idea.

Hisssssss.

[Tanuki Tales]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

Three levels in an associated class and elite array isn't worth +4? What would you suggested instead?

I never personally agreed with the elite array giving a +1 bump in the first place, but that's one of the reasons I'm a Pathfinder man over a 3.5 man. I suggest that you get some kind of playtest to see if the bump as it is right now is appropriate. I find that the CR adjustment guidelines aren't as realistic as they should be (5 levels in Fighter is not a +5 CR bump. -_- )

I guess I wasn't totally clear about that, but the area in which they actually live is basically Egypt from a climate standpoint; it's relatively cool compared to the open desert and the rivers provide rich silt. Combine that with the fact that the mages in Semyaza's school have access to spells that grow plants and animals and promote fertility (Plant Growth for one, plus some custom spells that go unstatted because they are useless in combat) and the other mages can do similar things with the sun, clouds, and earth and you've got plenty of ability to grow crops and livestock. As for the Nephilim, there's at most five of them actually still living among their children; they consume a lot but they aren't that big of a drain. I may remove the whole eating Heroes Feasts for appetizers thing though, since it's kind of silly in retrospect.

I assumed something of the sort, it just wasn't spelled out.

That's a case of letting the rules slide for the sake of drama; I figured they hacked his legs out from under him with a few dozen blows from their great axes and then did the same to his head. I'll try and change it to something more plausible; the point was more to get Anak in charge of both cities without having to conquer them.

I mean, if there was a legendary Orc who could go toe to toe with one the Rephaim, that'd be one thing. But just a random bunch of orc bandits?

Basically just Rephaim as old and pure-blooded as the Melquarts, but who went into magic instead of the sword. Unfortunately, the way the system works means that they have barely any reason to share power with the Melquarts, so I'll have to think of something to do about that.

Alrighty. Was curious because they were more mentioned in passing than anything.

Ok, that was just a stupid mistake on my part. I just reference the SRD if I need to check the core rules since my physical copies are falling apart and I thought that because they live on the material plane and have the Native subtype that they wern't actual Outsiders. It shouldn't be too hard to fix, since it doesn't effect their relationship too much.

I didn't assume it would be one, it was just something that stuck out when I was reading.

I guess you could, but I'd advise against it. The Nephilim are mostly in the mid to late 30s CR wise, with Raamah breaking 40; and if they decided to get up and starting doing things there is basically nothing that could stop them. If there was something at that level of power who actually wanted to destroy Hinnom it would probably already be destroyed, either by the Abomination or through the collateral damage of stopping it. That said, advancing an Abomination to 31 HD and making it Huge would make it a credible, but not insurmountable, threat to the Rephaim.

Well, the Abominations are supposed to be civilization enders who are chained in dark places that have no names and are never meant to ever again see the sky above. And there is only supposed to be one, with rumors of more existing. So I don't see how Hinnom would cease to be if they came after the chaining of the creature(s). And it'd be a neat hook if the Abomination(s) are hidden evidence that the Grigori had spread their seed prior to the creation of the Nephilim.

Because they're CR 8 and the Ba'als are CR 24 and Wish aside have barely a fraction of the arcane might of their Rephaite contacts. You have a point though, in that having that free of access to Wish has definite setting breaking powers. I blame Pokonic, since including them was his idea.

Maybe the Nephilim have some potent artifact that prevents Wish or Miracle spells from functioning properly or something to that end?

Nobody, he's an Arch-Devil not a Lord. I suppose I should explain; Arch-Devil is the title given to exceptionally powerful and unique Devils (And other Lawful Evil outsiders allied with Baator) who don't really fit into the regular hierarchy. They can be deposed former Lords like Geryon, Gargauth, Adremmalech, and Sammael; totally unique entities that nobody is really sure how to handle like Lixer and Glasya (and Fierna to a lesser extent due to her status as formal co-ruler of Phlegthos but practical subservience to her father); and people that Asmodeus wants to keep an eye on and occasionally call in favors from without having them formally affiliated with him like Eblis and the other Semyaza (This is where Azazel falls).

Ah; I'm not that deeply versed in the Nine Hells. I just could have sworn that the term "Arch-Devil" only applied to the Lords of the Nine.

I'll add a section on the Underdark, but the opinion of the various good realms is up to the DM who uses it; since it's supposed to be insertable into a pre-existing campaign as sort of a lost land where the players can adventure without having to worry about adapting it too much to their campaign. Would it be sufficient to add a bit about how most common races would think about it?

I meant more like the Seven Heavens and such. But a bit about how common races would think of Hinnom would be cool to see.

I'm not sure. Just letting it in would be going against the spirit of the rule, which is to prevent Outsiders from entering; but on the other hand they don't have any trouble entering anti-magic fields, which also prevent the spell from being cast. I think I'll go with allowing them to enter but the binding will be broken if they spend too much time in there. Part of the idea was to make Gate less awesome, but I suppose you can have a Gated outsider if you go to the trouble of bringing it in outside of Hinnom and then travelling conventionally to where you need it.

I'm just devil advocating the limits on magic you've imposed since Hinnom is inserted into a greater world as a whole and is not a plane onto itself. So natural curiosity would stem from where it's rules and laws collide with those of the world around it.

I'm glad to hear it. I'll be sure to add you to the credits and do what I can to implement your suggestion.

I don't think I've contributed enough to deserve that kind of honor.

[Iamyourking]

I did this a few days ago, but for the sake of those who don't periodically check the document for updates I have boosted the power level of the Dawn Guard without increasing their CR. This may or may not be the last update until the 27th.

[Debihuman]

I have finally gotten around to reading this and am very impressed. Are you going to finish the Melquart or update the google document?

Debby

[Iamyourking]

First, I am pleased to have earned the approval of such a well-regarded reviewer. I do intend to finish the Melquart and Ba'al, and in fact had a stat-line that I ended up scrapping, but I still need to do the Kohen's spells and the Shedim before I get around to it. I am still updating the Google document, but it's been small, not easily noticed, things lately.

[Jormengand]

Very long read put me off slightly. It also needs a little bit more return key, but maybe that's just me.

What I will say is that, due to their high ratio of racial:class levels, I'm not sure that these creatures will actually challenge a party with a level equal to their CR. Sure, they have a lot of hitpoints and high saves... but their damage output is low enough to shrug off, and the DCs on their spells (if they have them) are going to be pretty low.

Horite Tribesmen, for example, also have a low enough will save to do some pretty nasty things to them easily. Of course, your players won't necessarily know this without metagaming, but it could still take it down quickly if they worked it out.

[Iamyourking]

Damage output seems fine to me, compare a Rephaite Warrior to a Storm Giant of more or less the same CR; without Power Attack a full attack does 129 damage to the Storm Giant's 105 and Power Attacking for full (Which it can easily do because of Shock Trooper) it's 215 to the Storm Giant's 189. The Avvite Warrior doesn't compare quite as favorably to the Frost Giant (32 vs. 47); but its superior durability makes it about equal and it also has a bit more room for Power Attacking. The Dawn Guard is an initiator, who usually have trouble matching the damage that comparably leveled things can put out with 3 or 4 attacks, but I think being able to break through things with Elder Mountain Hammer or make touch attacks with Emerald Razor is enough compensation. The Horite Tribesman has 10 damage over the Hill Giant and significently better saves, although Will is always a weakness of big beatsticks like this. Se'irm I'll give you if you can find a CR 11 monster that averages much more than 61 damage on a full attack and Avvite Bowman I'll certainly give you, but that's mostly because archery just isn't very good. The Shedim are still in progress, so I didn't count them.

Casting wise, the Kohen has the same save DCs as the Planetar, albeit with no 9th level spells, but I gave it a Periapt of Wisdom +6 anyways so now its best spells should be at DC 27. I'll admit that the Ammi needs work though, since DC 20 isn't too difficult for a level appropriate party.

Format, I've already split it up quite a bit; so I'd like to know where you think more spaces are needed. I suppose the length can be a bit daunting, but ~14,000 words isn't really all that much.

Overall I appreciate the commentary, even if it was negative, but I'd also like to know what you were using as a basis of comparison to determine that damage output was too low.

[Jormengand]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

Overall I appreciate the commentary, even if it was negative, but I'd also like to know what you were using as a basis of comparison to determine that damage output was too low.

This is just me going "How easy is it for a sorcerer, cleric, rogue and fighter of appropriate level to take this thing down?" I'll admit, I forgot about full-round attacks, but a magicked-up fighter can have enough AC to be getting along with the lower-BAB attacks.

[Iamyourking]

That's true, but since PCs can vary so much in power (For instance, the sample fighter in the DMG will be hit by the Rephaite Soldier on a 2, 2, 6, and 11 and will only hit on a 14, 19, 20 at a level where the Soldier presents a credible fight for the entire party; although of course said fighter is very weak for its level) I find it easier to compare them to already existing monsters that fill similar roles and don't have a reputation for being excessively over or underpowered.

Edit: Actually, I'll open it up to the other viewers to say what they think. Are these giants underpowered for their CR?

[Tanuki Tales]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

Edit: Actually, I'll open it up to the other viewers to say what they think. Are these giants underpowered for their CR?

It's been awhile since my first read and I don't have the time right this second to look at them again, but I will tell you that Giants, on the most part, are underpowered for their CR.

[Iamyourking]

Very well then, every monster has had its CR decreased by 2.