Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS

[DougTheHead]

I'm sure I'm not the first to point this out, but this storyline has really underlined something about the Order of the Stick that had been hinted at, but never really deeply investigated up to this point: The three human members of the Order all share a similar relationship with their parents. Roy, Hayley, and Elan all have troubled relationships with their fathers, all of whom disappoint them in some way, and have idealized relationships with their mothers, all of whom seem to form the basis for their self-image.

The fathers all seem to disappoint their children by trying to force Roy, Hayley, and Elan into their own worldview. Eugene, in addition to considering Roy a failure for becoming a fighter, mostly seems to see his son as a way to break his blood oath. Ian continues to see Hayley as a supporting character in his struggle against Tarquin. Tarquin is, strangely enough, the closest thing to a good father- he's at least willing to let Elan be a hero, and is willing to tolerate their philosophical differences- but even that boils down to him using Elan, seeing him as the final piece of a story that will immortalize Tarquin forever.

By contrast, each of the human characters' mothers are loving, supportive, and generally let their kids go off into the world to let them grow up. Roy spent most of his childhood around his mother, she seems to have given him the desire to become a fighter with her stories of his grandfather, and the only things she asks of him are basic mother-things: settle down, have some kids, etc. Elan's mother obviously gave him his alignment, and based on the few times we've seen her, she seems to have given him his cheerful spirit and unique singing style, and the fact that Elan calls her his "mommy" suggests that he tends to idealize her the way a child would (and it's not just his intelligence or silliness that makes him do it- he doesn't address anyone else in such infantile terms). Hayley's mother is perhaps the most extreme example of a saintly mother- she died when Hayley was a little girl, so Hayley never had any adolescent conflict with her mother. Like Elan, she still sees her mother from the perspective of her childhood, and she's obviously taken her mother's dying words to heart- Hayley's character arc throughout the webcomic is basically her learning to become a better person than the circumstances in which she was raised would dictate.

There are other hints that this is a near-constant tendency in the OOTS-verse: Redcloak says "This one's for you, Mom" right before attacking Azure City, the former Bandit Leader blames himself for his daughter becoming a terrible person, and the relationship between Eugene and Horace doesn't seem to have been particularly happy either. That last comic even lampshades the trope a little bit: "I have nothing to say to my father." "Neither do I, yet you keep showing up."

What I'm wondering is, does anybody else think there's any greater significance to this? Is Burlew using a well-known trope, or does this pattern have some greater meaning? Are there any instances of it I missed? Also, why are all the mothers depicted as young while the fathers are usually shown as old men? Is it another way of showing that the main characters all have a child's view of their mothers and an adult view of their fathers?

[Cizak]

Regarding Redcloak,

SoD

Spoiler

We've enver actually seen RC's dad. The "This is for you, mom" is there because RC's mom was murdered by paladins a few feet in front of RC. So when he finally can attack Azure City, that revenge is specifically for his mom.

[Bulldog Psion]

It does seem to be a near-constant, yes. Even if the mothers aren't entirely saintly, the fathers are 100% jackass 100% of the time.

Which is kind of odd, I agree. I don't know what significance it has, though.

[ThePhantasm]

The same was pretty much true of LOST. Not all the mothers were saintly, but there were lots of daddy issues. It is popular in a lot of fiction.

[Flame of Anor]

Do note that Roy's grandfather is (was) a nice guy. And Hinjo's uncle was a pretty chill dude.

[hamishspence]

That said, his long period of "senility" followed by the big reveal that he was faking it all the time- might qualify Shojo as a "disappointing father figure" for Hinjo (while not Hinjo's father, some of the strips (bonus strips included) do seem to present a father-son dynamic.)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Originally Posted by DougTheHead

Is Burlew using a well-known trope, or does this pattern have some greater meaning?

Yeah, it’s called Steven Spielberg.

Originally Posted by hamishspence

That said, his long period of "senility" followed by the big reveal that he was faking it all the time- might qualify Shojo as a "disappointing father figure" for Hinjo (while not Hinjo's father, some of the strips (bonus strips included) do seem to present a father-son dynamic.)

Yeah, I don’t recall if it was ever addressed in-comic, but it would appear that at some point Hinjo’s parents left the picture, and Shojo took over in raising Hinjo for them. I would assume that was before he started the whole senile act.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

Do note that Roy's grandfather is (was) a nice guy.

I certainly wouldn't want to bet anything I wasn't prepared to lose on Horace being a better father to his son, Eugene than Eugene was to Roy--as Doug already addressed, and you just ignored.

And Hinjo's uncle was a pretty chill dude.

...Really? His lack of respect for his nephew was staggering.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Originally Posted by DougTheHead

What I'm wondering is, does anybody else think there's any greater significance to this? Is Burlew using a well-known trope, or does this pattern have some greater meaning? Are there any instances of it I missed? Also, why are all the mothers depicted as young while the fathers are usually shown as old men? Is it another way of showing that the main characters all have a child's view of their mothers and an adult view of their fathers?

Ah, serious literary analysis. This will be an interesting thread to say the least.

One reasoning could be akin to Freud and his Oedipus Complex. What it basically means is that sons compete with their fathers for their mothers love. Obviously this doesn't apply to Haley directly (since she's a girl) but it applies to Roy, Elan (if somewhat latly manifested), Eugene and possibly Redcloak.

There could be a bit of the author manifesting himself, either conciously or subconciously, into his work. I am not saying Rich has daddy issues, but it is possible and that may be the case.

Unfortunatly, since the strip is not over, any literary analysis we do now is incomplete due to insufficient data. But, in general, if the parents of the character aren't going to be perfect, its usually the dad that fails at parenting and the mother who is idealized.

As for women depicted as young and fathers depicted as old, this is two fold. We have only seen the mothers through flash-backs from when they were young or in a celestial plane where they can choose their form. And what women wouldn't want to look like their 19 year old selves? Inversly, the men are shown alive and in the present and thus subject to turmoils of old age. This last one does not apply to Eugene as he's kinda dead. But as Roy's mom points out, they appear as they view themselves. If Eugene views himself as a crotchy old man, well theres a pretty good chance he's a crotchy old man.

Just my $0.02 for now.

[jidasfire]

Yeah, this is pretty common in fiction, and certainly in OOTS as well, but at least here it's more complicated than just bad dad/good mom. Eugene is probably the most prevalent example, but even he has his moments, mostly those seen in Start of Darkness, where he puts his family over his vengeance on Xykon, though he would never admit it. As for Ian, he actually seems like a good man and a loving father, with a few serious blind spots based on his rampant paranoia. Oddly enough, Tarquin is very loving and supporting of Elan, despite being an absolutely ruthless dictator.

As for the rest of the Order, whose parents we haven't seen, I imagine Durkon's family being fairly normal and stable as dwarves go. He seems to hold his paternal figures in high regard. And Belkar, well, we certainly can't say, as he gives very little in the way of background (and there's no way to know if what he's actually given is true), but I suspect that Belkar comes from a perfectly loving and happy family, in which he was the psychotic, murdering black sheep. And V? Well, we know V's parents were rangers, and they occasionally took him/her camping, much to his/her chagrin, so it's likely that they didn't quite get Vaarsuvius. Anyway, that's all speculation, but it seems to fit with what we know.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Originally Posted by jidasfire

Yeah, this is pretty common in fiction, and certainly in OOTS as well, but at least here it's more complicated than just bad dad/good mom.

I think a distinction should be made between a disappointing dad and a bad dad.

A disappointing dad is a dad that has a number of good qualities—things that give him the potential to be a really excellent father. However, that potential is never realized, and he lets his flaws overshadow his strengths. It is disappointing because a child can have so much hope only to be let down time and time again. That is what disappointment is: the failure to fulfill one’s hope.

A bad dad is just a terrible father all around. There is nothing to be disappointed in, because there is no hope to lose.

Mind you that I would suggest the line between these categories can move. After all, one can only be disappointed so many time before one refuses to replace all that lost hope.

[Psyren]

Originally Posted by Kish

...Really? His lack of respect for his nephew was staggering.

It's justified though. He knew (rightfully, as it turned out) that Hinjo was a paladin first and his nephew second.

Not to mention, he can't have had much faith in his nurturing skills after how Miko turned out.

[Dr.Epic]

Originally Posted by DougTheHead

There are other hints that this is a near-constant tendency in the OOTS-verse: Redcloak says "This one's for you, Mom" right before attacking Azure City

That just means he...

a) Loved his mother which is a pretty common thing for people to do

b) Was getting revenge for the slaughter of his people

relationship between Eugene and Horace doesn't seem to have been particularly happy either. That last comic even lampshades the trope a little bit: "I have nothing to say to my father." "Neither do I, yet you keep showing up."

Or Eugene is just a jerk as we've seen demonstrated and he never cared for his father making it difficult for his father to relate to him.

[HandofShadows]

Originally Posted by Dr.Epic

Or Eugene is just a jerk as we've seen demonstrated and he never cared for his father making it difficult for his father to relate to him.

I would say this is right on the money. Take a look at his "dead" form. Old and mean. It seem he was that way on the inside even when he was young.

[Squark]

We've never seen what Horace and Eugene's relationship was actually like, so we don't know if Horace was merely unable to connect with Eugene at all, or if he was little better than Eugene.

As for Durkon... All I can recall is he has mentioned his mother was still alive when he left, but his father got no such mention. Could be wrong about that, though.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I would like to suggest that what we know of Horace and Eugene’s relationship has come almost entirely from Horace. So the picture may be a tad biased.

[Snails]

Both "bad dads/good moms" and "good dads/bad moms" are not exactly rare in fiction, even if the former is more common (probably because insulting motherhood is taboo).

As OotS seems somewhat close to a classic male coming of age story in terms of genre, the problems with fathers taking center stage is the more obvious choice.

Haley is, in fact, learning to love and be loved by the, stereotypically speaking, least macho regular character in OotS. Dare we say that Elan is often downright effeminate?

[Math_Mage]

Subjective interpretation supporting the OP:
Durkon's apparently paternalistic order threw him out;
V makes a pretty terrible 'father', his spouse makes a great 'mother', and the closest thing he has to a father figure is Aarindarius...
and Belkar is Belkar, so can't delve into that too deeply.

[Holy_Knight]

Interesting topic. As additional points to some of what's already been said, some of the other characters mentioned also fall into this pattern in certain ways. For instance:

Belkar: The only relatives he's mentioned by name are "Mama Bitterleaf" (seemingly referenced with affection or admiration) and "Aunt Judy", both females.

Hinjo: Shojo is his maternal uncle, as is implied by his saying "I'm just glad that mother didn't live to see this" when he discovers Shojo's deception. This doesn't necessarily mean there was anything bad about his father, but he is connected to his world and station primarily through his mother.

Vaarsuvius: Vaarsuvius himself is a disappointing father to his children, in contrast to Inkyrius who is more idealized in terms of relationship to their children. And even if you think V is female, V still represents the more traditionally masculine parental role in terms of being absent from the home and pursuing a career, while Inkyrius embodies the traditionally feminine role of staying home and taking care of the kids. So the two of them can be seen as an example of this, too.

[Gift Jeraff]

We also know a bit about V's parents. They were rangers (OtOoPC), and V seems to dislike the ranger-ish activities they did such as camping.

And what about the Nale-Tarquin relationship? That's far a bigger indicator of what kind of father Tarquin is than his relationship with Elan (who is basically a total stranger to Tarquin).

Originally Posted by Holy_Knight

Hinjo: Shojo is his maternal uncle, as is implied by his saying "I'm just glad that mother didn't live to see this" when he discovers Shojo's deception.

Not just implied, Shojo calls her his sister right after that.

[veti]

How would you rate Samantha's dad? I'm thinking "well-meaning failure".

And for all that biological fathers are 'disappointing', proxy fathers are even worse. Consider:

• (As previously mentioned), Durkon's order threw him out
• Kubota's betrayal of Therkla
• Shojo's treatment of Miko and Hinjo - even though Shojo was a pretty cool dude as we saw him, his treatment of his all-but-adopted-children was very shabby

[squidbreath]

BUT Yik-Yik was a GOOD father despite his alignment!

[thereaper]

Sometimes, a door is just a door.

[Psyren]

*insert baseless speculation on the Giant's relationship with his own forebears*

[Palthera]

Originally Posted by veti

How would you rate Samantha's dad? I'm thinking "well-meaning failure".

And for all that biological fathers are 'disappointing', proxy fathers are even worse. Consider:

• (As previously mentioned), Durkon's order threw him out
• Kubota's betrayal of Therkla
• Shojo's treatment of Miko and Hinjo - even though Shojo was a pretty cool dude as we saw him, his treatment of his all-but-adopted-children was very shabby

I don't think Durkon's order counts as a proxy father. The High Priest of Thor only gets rid of him for what he thinks to be a very good reason. Besides, if I don't consider a job to be a proxy father, even if said job is a religious calling.

Kubota was a right royal thingummywhatsit, Therkla was a minion, just one he happened to be training. She was fond of him, but I don't think he ever had any real affection for her.

And I think you're being unfair to Shojo really, both his "adopted children" are well and truly adults. They're supposed to be taking care of themselves and since he himself had a very different philosophy on the world than they did I'm not surprised he felt it reasonable to deceive them. It's a "one adult to another" thing, not a "parent lying to children" thing. I've found that once you get to a certain age, any reasonable adult treats you as a fellow adult, even if you're a couple of generations below them.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Originally Posted by Palthera

I don't think Durkon's order counts as a proxy father. The High Priest of Thor only gets rid of him for what he thinks to be a very good reason. Besides, if I don't consider a job to be a proxy father, even if said job is a religious calling.

The great thing about father figures is that it doesn’t matter what anyone other than the person seeking said figure thinks about their attempted proxy. In other words, if Durkon thought of certain clergy members as appropriate father figures, then that is what they were.

The one problem with that, is sometimes the father figure doesn’t quite realize what the father-seeker thinks of him or her. As such, that makes it so much easier to disappoint the father-seeker.

Kubota was a right royal thingummywhatsit, Therkla was a minion, just one he happened to be training. She was fond of him, but I don't think he ever had any real affection for her.

As above, it doesn’t matter whether or not Kubota reciprocated as long as Therkla may have considered him a father figure.

You know, it is kinda like how not showing any fatherly affection doesn’t make someone stop being a father. It just makes them a bad or disappointing father.

I've found that once you get to a certain age, any reasonable adult treats you as a fellow adult, even if you're a couple of generations below them.

Treating one like an adult and treating one like a son or daughter are not mutually exclusive.

[Concept]

Adventurers don't have stable, normal family situations. I'm just glad they're not all orphans of destroyed villages. Having troubled pasts to interact with adds a lot to the story.

But the fact that they're all male seems a little unbalanced, but might be a statement about the society. All the important relations are male; the mothers get a happy flashback and are dismissed as irrelevant to the story. But, as you already pointed out, the non-humans don't have the overwhelming father-issues tendency.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Even putting Oedipus Rex aside, overcoming or surpassing one's father is an extremely common part of the heroic fantasy archetype - part of the Hero's Journey, if an unofficial one (although Haley vs. Ian might be the first time I've seen it applied to a heroine). OotS is very intentionally following the conventions of heroic fantasy, so it's not really a surprise that the more traditional Hero characters have this kind of parental conflict.

As for the idealization of the mothers, what I find more interesting than that is that characters' mothers or mother figures have only been seen in flashbacks or the afterlife. Another part of the Hero's Journey (and adulthood, really) is being separated from a mother's love and protection, so that's not too surprising.

Actually, when I put it that way, both the disappointing fathers and idealized but not-present mothers are due to the fact that heroic fantasy is fundamentally about the Hero(es) becoming functional adults, independent of their parents. Parents in a story like this are either in conflict with their children somehow, or not present somehow. Why this distinction is evenly divided between male and female parents for Roy, Elan, and Haley, I'm not sure though.

Perhaps it's simply a conscious or subconscious commentary on the part of the author about how society discourages men from being good parents, but rather encourages them to pursue their own goals or provide for their family while remaining distant, while actual emotional and physical affection is (in terms of social expectations) reserved for mothers. Or perhaps I'm projecting a pet peeve of mine onto the story.

[Snails]

Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama

Perhaps it's simply a conscious or subconscious commentary on the part of the author about how society discourages men from being good parents, but rather encourages them to pursue their own goals or provide for their family while remaining distant, while actual emotional and physical affection is (in terms of social expectations) reserved for mothers. Or perhaps I'm projecting a pet peeve of mine onto the story.

Looking at the same kind of problem from multiple points of view does not need to be intended as a theme which comments on society itself, it could simply be that the author has decided this topic is a worthy of exploration.

"Worthy" only means "interesting". Reading too much in is very easy.

[Ancalagon]

It's the same in Babylon 5. Lots of father-conflicts, no mother was really dealt with. Curious thing.