Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Wraith

That's why Inquisitors get Combi-plasmaguns and Refractor Fields, while bits of the 'Guard still have steam-powered tanks.

It's worst than that - some of the Guard still ride animal mounts into combat.

[The Glyphstone]

Sometimes those animal mounts are crazy souped-up battle cyborgs, though.


Schizo Tech has always been one of the Imperium's hats. The cherubs and skulls get antigravity devices because A) they still have the blueprints for said antigravity devices, and B) they're an oppressive religious theocracy. The tanks run on internal combustion engines because A) they don't have the blueprints for grav tanks, and B) see above.

[Tome]

There's another reason they use the combustion engines on some of the tanks - the Leman Russ can run on firewood and dried leaves if they have to. That's a pretty major logistics advantage.

[GolemsVoice]

I'm not actually questioning the logic (or lack thereof) behind this, I just find it amusing, and I guess it must be incredibly frustrating when the tiny skull that is just there to serve as a torch for the high official visiting your regiment contains technology more advanced that anything your men can muster.

[Zorg]

There's also the reason that a low tech engine is easier to maintain in a wider variety of environments and supply situations.


-


Also, Koronus Gazetter Issue #2 (big pics):

Spoiler

[Maquise]

I just found a trailer for the next Horus Heresy book, Know No Fear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vGuR...74RVAAAAAAAADQ. I know it's about the Ultramarines against the Word Bearers. Anyone else know anything? (I've read up to Flight of the Eisenstein and Fulgrim)

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Maquise

I know it's about the Ultramarines against the Word Bearers.

It's the Battle of Calth. One of the key points in the Horus Heresy that meant Chaos actually had a chance at Terra (if Istvaan wasn't enough). It's also what allowed Guilliman to maintain most of his Legion and come out of the end of the Heresy with the most political power.

Yeah. Battle of Calth. Its a thing. You can look it up. I'm not particularly a fan of the Heresy books that tell me things I already know. Flight of the Eisenstein is still - IMO - one of the better ones because I didn't know the end before I started reading it. First Heretic and Dark Mechanicum were also very good.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

What does Cain do without his reputation, surrounded by people who hate him, stuck in one of his worst nightmare situations without Jurgen by his side?

Cain's time in a "eldar reiver slave pit" - mentioned in passing on one or two occasions, would be a perfect bit of backstory to expand on, in this context.

Cain's reputation wasn't really in play in Death or Glory- in fact, it was that event that earned him much of it. Though he did have Jurgen then.

[Silus]

Question regarding Chaos fluff:

Lucius the Eternal can come back, more or less, from the dead if he is killed and his killer feels one squick of triumph from the act.

What happens if he's killed by a Necron (Who are, I believe, emotionless can cannot feel triumph over the act)? Or a Tyranid that gets reabsorbed into the Hive Fleet?

[Knight13]

Presumably it means that he wouldn't be able to posses his killer and would die permanently. Which, if you think about it, makes his ability kind of weak, since there's lots of ways in the W40K universe for him to be killed without his killer feeling any triumph over it. Besides all the mindless creatures like necrons and tyranids, he could get hit by an artillery round or a lascannon blast and whoever fired it wouldn't even know that they killed him.

[Wraith]

You could conceivably get around it by how you define "satisfaction". Or even "killed".

Tyranids notoriously eat what they kill, so even a tiny moment of satisfaction (pleasing taste, sating their hunger) might qualify for the former.

A Necron Lord sends 2,000 mindless Warriors to wipe out a Chaos Army and, when they return victorious, is satisfied that they have fulfilled their duty. In a sense, that Lord has 'killed' Lucius by using his army as the 'weapon' for the latter.

Given that we're talking about a particularly fickle Chaos God doing the choosing, either are perfectly plausible.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, it's not like Slaanesh plays fair to begin with.

[Silus]

Originally Posted by Wraith

You could conceivably get around it by how you define "satisfaction". Or even "killed".

Tyranids notoriously eat what they kill, so even a tiny moment of satisfaction (pleasing taste, sating their hunger) might qualify for the former.

A Necron Lord sends 2,000 mindless Warriors to wipe out a Chaos Army and, when they return victorious, is satisfied that they have fulfilled their duty. In a sense, that Lord has 'killed' Lucius by using his army as the 'weapon' for the latter.

Given that we're talking about a particularly fickle Chaos God doing the choosing, either are perfectly plausible.

Read this really nice fic once where Kharn offed Lucius then offed himself via self chain-axe decapitation. That might be the only way to do it...

[Wraith]

Suicide before the 'curse' kicked in would probably be the most likely way of killing Lucius forever.

There are other ways to do it that I could think of, perhaps. One would be for him to encounter someone so immensely powerful that they could barge through him and not even notice. Say, Kaldor Draigo sees M'Kar on the other side of the battlefield and just crushes everything in his path like so many insects. The guy beat down a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch and a Greater Daemon of Khorne with a broken sword, so something as trivial as Lucius while in full Optimus Prime-mode might not even get noticed let alone appreciated.

Or something like the Avatar or a C'Tan could do it - they're not human, they're vaguely even mortal, but they possibly aren't so 'mindless' as to be considered 'tools', like Necron Warriors. Whether they're even capable of emotion at all, let alone satisfaction as we understand it, is debatable; The Avatar in particular, being a living incarnation of Anger and Aggression, probably isn't able to 'feel' anything else.

[The Glyphstone]

Really, though, all that will accomplish in the end is Slaanesh reincarnating him personally. It's not like s/he is above cheating when random bad luck (according to Tzeentch's plan, of course) killed off hir champion.

[Wraith]

Maybe. Slaanesh is all about emotion, and provoking a reaction of some kind. If It's "Champion" isn't able to get someone to care enough about killing him, would he still be worthy of the title?

I'd more likely expect It to recruit a new Champion with an even more exotic/creepy ability.

[Acanous]

Someone more adept at inspiring emotion. Someone with a reputation. Someone recogniseable..like Cain.

[Alex Knight]

Lucius: "Go ahead, strike me down and your soul will be the fuel for my reincarnation! You'll be part of my armor for eternity, like the rest of the damned!"

Overlord: "What....a pity then....that I.....have no soul."

[The_Final_Stand]

Who was that guy with a stasis bomb for a heart? If he went and lost against Lucius, then that would quite nicely qualify, since Lucius isn't dead.

Or one could drop him into a Tesseract Labyrinth. Or any other system that seals him into a can. There are plenty of ways of getting rid of someone that don't involve killing them.

[Cheesegear]

So, despite my Cain hate, I went and bought myself Emperor's Finest. I was extremely disappointed. Death or Glory and Traitor's Hand still remain the best ones by far, and I still think the series should have ended with Cain's Last Stand. Maybe it did? But the cash cow that it was, wasn't allowed to die?

So, E'sF. None of it was funny (since that's what the thread told me Cain was for). Or, it may have been to some, but it was the same tired 'jokes' that I've already read six times (at least once in every novel so far, that is). The only time I did chuckle even a little was at a reference to Horatio Bugler. But, that's a "It's funny because it's a reference" joke, not because Cain himself is funny.

Spoiler

Tyranids and Orks. Again. At this point is just seems lazy. And I'm starting to realise why the Cain villains are the villains - because Mitchell is lazy (I could point to the formulaic stories for proof but I wont...Err...Too late). Orks, Tyranids, Necrons and Khornates don't need characterisation, Cain doesn't need a reason to fight them - and vice versa. The fact is, those guys are evil and they have to be killed. Why? Doesn't matter. They're Orks. Kill them. They're Tyranids. Kill them. The Khornate guys are trying to kill us. Kill them.

...But that's not what Cain is for, you ask? Well, wouldn't it be better if it was? But then it wouldn't really be Cain anymore! That's the point.

The only real surprise in the book was that Mira (the girl who wouldn't leave Cain alone, ever) actually didn't turn out to be a Hybrid trying to infect Cain. Fact is, she was simply annoying for no reason. Thanks for writing that rubbish character that had no impact on the plot and taking up page space. That was awesome.

And the Space Marines! When you're writing a human-centric PoV, you have to make well, the Emperor's Finest absolutely awesome! See Atlas Infernal for a perfect example. Not in a Cain book! The Terminators - you read that, Terminators - drop like flies whilst Cain is able to fend off at least two Genestealers at a time without even a scratch.

The sad, sad truth is that I probably will end up at some point reading Last Ditch because I wont have anything else to read. You could say, that Last Ditch will be a Last Ditch.

[Wraith]

I don't know an awful lot about Emperor's Finest, but by the sounds of it the book details the time that Cain spent among the Relictors?

A shame, really. My favourite parts of the books were always when he was being a Commissar to an Imperial Guard force. Kasteen and Broklaw were good characters, and seeing the day-to-day life of a soldier in the 41st millenium made for a good story. That Cain was actually their Devil's Advocate actually made him a more realistic, sympathetic character.

Hopefully we'll see more of the Valhallan 597th.... But sadly, I doubt it.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Hopefully we'll see more of the Valhallan 597th.... But sadly, I doubt it.

The Last Ditch is about the 597th- it's set shortly after The Traitor's Hand.

"Genestealers tearing through Terminator armour like it was cardboard" appears in an early book, where Cain's remembering the events later outlined in The Emperor's Finest.

And I especially liked the little shout-out to a certain movie:

Spoiler

Capablanca

toward the end of The Emperor's Finest.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Wraith

I don't know an awful lot about Emperor's Finest, but by the sounds of it the book details the time that Cain spent among the Relictors?

Reclaimers. Relictors are a whole different kettle of fish. I wish Cain could spend time with Relictors. Grey Knights would show up and blow him away.

Originally Posted by hamishspence

"Genestealers tearing through Terminator armour like it was cardboard" appears in an early book, where Cain's remembering the events later outlined in The Emperor's Finest.

I don't mind that. Genestealers ripping apart Terminators is canon, it's a thing. What I do mind, however, is that Terminators are legitimately some of the best warriors Humanity has to offer. Or, rather, the best that Superhumanity has to offer. I mind that in the same scene where two Terminators are killed, Cain and Jurgen manage to kill a few (with las-weapons, not a Storm Bolter) and evade Genestalers in tunnels. Where Genestealers live. In tunnels.

It doesn't make Cain seem like a hero - we already know he is. It makes Terminators seem cheap, and if that's happening, somebody doesn't what Terminators do.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

I mind that in the same scene where two Terminators are killed, Cain and Jurgen manage to kill a few (with las-weapons, not a Storm Bolter) and evade Genestalers in tunnels. Where Genestealers live. In tunnels.

Cain's evaded Genestealers in tunnels before. Remember For The Emperor?

Genestealers are glass cannons. They have a carapace on a par with Imperial Guardsman armour- but once they're up close and personal, watch out!

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Reclaimers. Relictors are a whole different kettle of fish. I wish Cain could spend time with Relictors. Grey Knights would show up and blow him away.

Ah, thank you. I "almost knew" I had it wrong, but for the life of me couldn't remember why.

Originally Posted by hamishspence

The Last Ditch is about the 597th- it's set shortly after The Traitor's Hand.

....Oh. So I am going to be disappointed, by the sounds of things? That's a shame.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Wraith

....Oh. So I am going to be disappointed, by the sounds of things? That's a shame.

I thought you wanted to see more of the regiment? Before this one, The Traitor's Hand was the latest book, chronologically, that featured them.

Duty Calls was set between Caves of Ice and The Traitor's Hand.

Kasteen, Broklaw, Magot, and so on- these are all in The Last Ditch. which, while between The Traitor's Hand and Cain's Last Stand, is much closer to The Traitor's Hand.

Death Or Glory, and The Emperor's Finest are both set before For The Emperor, in which Cain is first assigned to the 597th.

If it's The Emperor's Finest that you're referring to when you say you might be disappointed, I can see why- but I thought Death or Glory was a pretty good book even though it didn't have the 597th, and that The Emperor's Finest had good moments.

[Wraith]

Yes I do, but that doesn't automatically make the book immune to the problems that Cheesegear listed.

I shall try to keep an open mind, but even I can admit that the Cain series hasn't been getting better as it goes on.

[hamishspence]

I'd be doubtful about the notion that it's got significantly worse though.

Cain's Last Stand showed us Cain in the role of mentor, not just Commissar.

Maybe later books will have a similar theme of getting Cain out of his main role? We know he goes to Valhalla, and to Terra, at some point in his life- maybe he'll be "on a mission from the Inquisition".

Or we could see "Cain as prisoner" (the "eldar reiver" incident mentioned in passing).

There's plenty of room for interesting variation on the theme, and I remain optimistic.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

and that The Emperor's Finest had good moments.

Having just read it, I feel I can safely ask; It did?

[Acanous]

Cheese, if you don't like the writing style, the characters or the plots, why do you buy the books? There's a whole universe of lore, and the Cain stuff is on the grey line of Canon. Just read the Gaunt's Ghosts stuff and be happy.
Personally, I enjoy the Cain series. Mostly because of the perspective from which it is written. The notations at the bottom of every other page are a nice touch.