Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Knight13]

I'm pretty sure he wasn't killed- the head shape (horselike, after injury + cosmetic surgery) was specifically mentioned.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Heldane
Quote from the book?

Okay, just got home and dug out my Eisenhorn omnibus. I was wrong about Heldane getting his head blown off, that was a different character. He did come pretty close though, here's the quote:

The marble deck of the bridge cracked and parted underneath Heldane like solid ground split by an earth tremor. One of his feet slipped into the crack and he swayed.

Cherubael snorted with glee and clapped his hands. The deck quaked and the crack closed again, like a vice.

Heldane screamed. He screamed the terrible howl of the damned. He was pinned into the deck by his crushed leg. Cherubael advanced.

Heldane slashed with his sword in terror. The blade melted. The inquisitor's clothes caught fire. Ablaze from head to foot with green flames, he screamed again. On fire, upright, fixed to the spot, he looked just like a heretic burning at the stake.

Cherubael looked away from his prey, bored with it now that it was dying. It surged forward and floated towards me.

Get pinned in place and then set on fire by a daemonhost sounds pretty final, but in the epilogue it mentions that he survived, though he lost the leg and spent many years recovering from his injuries. Then he was killed on Menazoid Epsilon in 765.M41. He was mentioned as a interrogator for Inquisitor Voke in the first Eisenhorn book in 240.M41, meaning he was over 500 when he died.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Funnily enough, the Cain books have at least one Shout Out to Sharpe - when two people quote a song:

"The Emperor points and we obey"
"Through the Warp and far away"

I suspect the same song is referenced in the Gaunt books as well.

However I know the Cain books aren't taking themselves seriously when they have a Tau sympathiser, with face half painted blue, start the "Freedom!" speech from Braveheart.

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

Do you mind if I ask why?

Basically, his writing style rubs me the wrong way. The way he describes things, the way his characters interact, the basic tone of the book all just aren't my cup of tea. While I liked Eisenhorn from a purely "This is showing me things I've never seen before" perspective, even that wasn't terribly enjoyable. His prose feels very cold and by-the-numbers, and I personally feel that he has an unfortunate tendency to ratchet up the despair and Grimdark beyond my usual tolerance point (See: Ravenor). I stopped reading Gaunt's Ghosts after the first novel, and I sincerely doubt I'll read anything else he writes at this point.

I can accept that he's not the worst writer Black Library employs. Not even close, given the likes of Goto. I just personally do not enjoy the stories Abnett tells, which is why I do not read his books any more.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV

[A number of excellent and reasonable points]

I do admit that he does ratchet up the despair and Grimdark a little high (there's a scene in Necropolis which makes me go "whoa, that's a little too far"), but the first two Gaunt books are a little slow and it isn't until the third book that I feel he really hits his stride as a 40K author.

I haven't read Ravenor, so can't comment, but you've given them a fair try, you don't like them, so fair enough.

[Hazzardevil]

I've been thinking, Power Weapons are better than Chain Weapons right? So why do space marines use chain weapons over power weapons?

[GolemsVoice]

Because power weapons are high-maintenance weapons, and even though they aren't as rare as other weapons, they are still really rare. Chain weapons, as far as I know, can still be mass produced.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

I've been thinking, Power Weapons are better than Chain Weapons right? So why do space marines use chain weapons over power weapons?

They're rare, presumably. Carrying a power weapon is a mark of status or rank in most cases, chain-weapons are for the rank and file. They're probably easier to maintain/repair/replace as well.

[Tome]

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

I've been thinking, Power Weapons are better than Chain Weapons right? So why do space marines use chain weapons over power weapons?

What the other folks said. Power Weapons are rare and hard to make, whereas Chainswords can be mass-produced. For the cost of a single Power Sword, you can give the entire squad Chainswords, going by the prices in the rpg books.

Chainswords aren't really all that much weaker than a Power Sword most of the time, unless your enemy is wearing really heavy armour, so it's simply more cost effective to give everyone Chainswords.

[Knight13]

Pretty much every power weapon I can think of that was mentioned in any of the books I've read was some one-of-a-kind work of art that was custom made for some person of importance.

[Zorg]

There's a scene in the novel Space Marine when the Tyranids come in force and one guy decides to sacrifice himself to hold them back so the others can escape. He does so by grabbing an officer's power sword - apologising as he does so - to wail on the 'nids.
The text notes that he should be executed for his disrespecting his CO by stealing his fancy sword (but they let him get killed so he dies a hero instead).

[Hazzardevil]

Originally Posted by Zorg

There's a scene in the novel Space Marine when the Tyranids come in force and one guy decides to sacrifice himself to hold them back so the others can escape. He does so by grabbing an officer's power sword - apologising as he does so - to wail on the 'nids.
The text notes that he should be executed for his disrespecting his CO by stealing his fancy sword (but they let him get killed so he dies a hero instead).

This I must remember forever and tell friends about space marines.

[Platinius]

Indeed, there are simply not enough to go around and there are also soldiers that prefer more rugged equipment, usually more reliable than high-speed gear. I'd like to share an interesting observation and comment on a related topic. Eisenhorn described his powersword as having no physical blade (it's basically a starwarsian lightsaber) and that it is much more advanced compared to contemporary powerweapons because of it, I for one say that it is merrily more sophisticated (though it is likely lost tech), but not necessarily the better weapon. It is definitely more suited for his use as Inquisitor who often need to conceal weapons. A regular space marine would take it (power weapons are rare enough), but would prefer one with a phyisical blade, because 1. at no point has the blade-less been described as more powerful and 2. if dear old Eisenhorn runs out of power(packs) for his weapon, all he has is a puny little rod, the SM however still has huge badass razor-sharp sword.

To summarize (and explain if I wasn't clear enough), the chainsword is the Ak-47 of the 40k melee weapons, strong enough shredding for most enemies, rugged, reliable, comparatively easy to produce and repair. The more sophisticated gear is, the more flimsy in combat, the more difficult to build, maintain and repair. (I could go on about the quality and logistics of military gear in 40k or otherwise for hours, but I think this is enough for today and I hope I didn't offend or bore anyone with my long explanations)

I do have questions though, what is the quality of targeting systems used in the Imperium of Men and how often do nukes get used in the setting? (and I don't mean for Exterminatus)

[Knight13]

I honestly can't think of any examples of nuclear weapons being used. If Imperial forces need massive, burn-it-to-the-ground-and-salt-the-ashes destruction in a particular area, they usually go with orbital bombardment.

[The Glyphstone]

Atomics are a forbidden ,ancient technology no one remembers how to make anymore. The only canon time I can think of them being used was in one of the Wars for Armageddon.

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Atomics are a forbidden ,ancient technology no one remembers how to make anymore. The only canon time I can think of them being used was in one of the Wars for Armageddon.

Krieg nuked themselves to oblivion as well. That said, Atomics are neither forbidden nor something nobody knows how to make. They can be made, and there is nothing preventing their manufacture or use. In fact;

Originally Posted by Rogue Trader: Into the Storm p. 163

In the age of the Imperium, however, atomics have since fallen out of favour. Simply put, the militant Adepta and the Imperial Inquisition have better ways to destroy worlds. Cyclonic torpedoes and virus bombs can slay whole planets in a matter of hours, or even minutes. On the other hand, even hundreds of atomic warheads will not destroy a world outright—instead polluting the biosphere and slowly choking life with palls of intensely radioactive soot.

In effect, the imperium doesn't use nuclear weapons because they have more efficient means of accomplishing anything a nuke can do. From virus bombs and cyclonic torpedoes for planetary destruction to plasma warheads and vortex bombs for tactical destructive weapons to lance arrays and starship macrobatteries as city-destroying terror weapons, the Imperium just doesn't need Atomics and thus sees no reason to use them.

As for targetting systems, in true Imperial fashion it varies immensely from crude non-computerized systems to extremely effective cogitator-assisted systems that are slightly better than what we have today. They're not as well-off as the Tau, who have stunning technical equipment that vastly outperforms anything we have today, but that's what you get when you mistrust and destroy anything that looks even vaguely like an AI.

[The Glyphstone]

Huh. I could have sworn they were considered archaeotech. I guess not.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV

In effect, the imperium doesn't use nuclear weapons because they have more efficient means of accomplishing anything a nuke can do.

For rebelling planetary governors and such forces that will use anything they can get their hands on, atomics are still used. I think there was a recorded detonation in the first Gaunt book, and Gaunt recognised the explosion pattern, suggesting that they still teach about it or use them enough so that people can recognise them.

Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV

They're not as well-off as the Tau, who have stunning technical equipment that vastly outperforms anything we have today, but that's what you get when you mistrust and destroy anything that looks even vaguely like an AI.

I'm sure all the candle wax and incense smoke doesn't help matters as well.

Edit: So I've been playing around with the lyrics for 'Over the Hills and Far Away' and surprisingly little has to be changed to make it fit into the 40K universe (guess it goes to show that soldiering is pretty much universal everywhere).

It doesn't help that Cain's version goes "The Emperor points and we obey/Through the Warp and far away" while Gaunt's is "Over the skies and far away".
I'm going to chalk Gaunt's as the original Tanith version, and Cain's to a newer song with updated lyrics after 200 years (other IG regiments that served with the Tanith during the Sabbat campaign, learning it and taking it with them).

Anyway, suggestions (especially on the planet names and money amount) would be welcome. As you can tell, I'm not a song writer - give me a nice technical document any day.

Spoiler

Here's 40 Thrones on the drum,
For those who volunteer to come,
To 'list and fight the foe today,
Through the Warp and far away

[Chorus]
Through the warp and through the stars,
Through Typhon, Cadia and Mars,
The Emperor points and we obey,
Through the warp and far away

When duty calls me I must go,
To stand and face another foe,
But part of me will always stay,
Through the Warp and far away

[Chorus]

If I should fall to rise no more,
As many comrades did before,
Then ask the fife and drums to play,
Through the Warp and far away

[Chorus]

Then fall in lads behind the drum,
With our banners blazing like the sun,
Along the road to come what may,
Through the Warp and far away

[Chorus]

[Isak]

So... I'm finally getting back into the Gaunt's Ghosts series. I've read up to Straight Silver, and I'm currently on the last book of "The Saint", with the entirety of "The Lost" still on the line...

And while poking through Barnes and Nobles; I noticed "Know No Fear" is out... Suffice to say, I have lots of reading ahead of me

Anyone else pick up "Know No Fear" yet? I've become a big fan of Word Bearers ever since reading "The First Heretic" and "Aurelian"... Seeing them slap around the Ultrasmurf's should be pretty good... even though it seems as if the novel is much more based around the Ultra's than the Bearers...

[Squark]

So, some space wolf related questions;

1) Lone Wolves are the sole survivors of packs that have otherwise been wiped out. What happens if a relatively understrength group looses one of it's last few members not through casualties, but through promotion to wolf guard? For example, say one of the last two members of a squad of long fangs does something truly heroic, and is promoted to wolf guard. What happens to the other guy?
2) Is there an age restriction on Lone wolves, or do they include blood claws, grey hunters, and long fangs alike?
3) Since Lone wolves are not wolf guard, why can they take terminator armor?
4) How big do space wolves packs start?

[Wraith]

1) Presumably, the same thing. Their entire pack has been wiped out save one, who is now serving as a prime example of what SHOULD have been achieved while the last guy languishes alone.

In some ways, you could consider that extra shameful - all of his friends have died, but he's still not good enough to get a promotion despite the fact that it's just been proven that there's nothing holding him back but his own abilities.

2) Nope. The entry for Lone Wolves in the Codex specifically mentions "Grey Hunters and Long Fangs". It seems that anyone can become a Lone Wolf, circumstances pending.

3) Tradition, mostly. It seems to be treated as a sacred rite, to become Wolf Guard or die trying; If that guy says, "I want to do it wearing Terminator armour", the roles of honour and kin among Space Wolves say that he probably shouldn't be refused. Not even the Great Wolf would refuse the request of an applicant.

4) Space Wolves have Blood Claws where ordinary Chapters have Scouts, so from the Codex' point of view a new pack will contain up to 15 individuals.
Presumably within the fluff, this is dictated by the recruitment rate and the number of successful neophytes which make it back to the Fang after being implanted; If only 12 make it back, for example I'd expect them to be collected into one pack of 12 Blood Claws. If 18 make it back, they could be made into two squads of 9 or whatever other configuration that the local Wolf Priest thinks is a good idea.

[Timberwolf]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

Spoiler

Here's 40 Thrones on the drum,
For those who volunteer to come,
To 'list and fight the foe today,
Through the Warp and far away

[Chorus]
Through the warp and through the stars,
Through Typhon, Cadia and Mars,
The Emperor points and we obey,
Through the warp and far away

When duty calls me I must go,
To stand and face another foe,
But part of me will always stay,
Through the Warp and far away

[Chorus]

If I should fall to rise no more,
As many comrades did before,
Then ask the fife and drums to play,
Through the Warp and far away

[Chorus]

Then fall in lads behind the drum,
With our banners blazing like the sun,
Along the road to come what may,
Through the Warp and far away

[Chorus]

Well, since you're rewriting this, I think it's only fair to say that there's about a million versions of this fine song, depending on the period, but if you want some extra verses that really fit, this was the theme tune to "Sharpe", that excellent piece of British filmmaking. /British propaganda. John Tams, who also played Rifleman Hagman, sang a verse at the end of each episode.

Linky

[Squark]

How is the Space Wolf series? And which would you recommend I read first, Ultramarines series, or Space Wolves (I know there's not any connection there, just asking which would be a better read for someone who hasn't read many of the novels)?

[Maquise]

I have another question:

I thought I read that Power weapons don't block one another, but destroy one another when they come in contact. So, how would one duel with power weapons?

[Squark]

Originally Posted by Maquise

I have another question:

I thought I read that Power weapons don't block one another, but destroy one another when they come in contact. So, how would one duel with power weapons?

Very carefully.

I've never come across that bit of lore, though, so I can't really say. To clarify, though, did it disrupt the power field, or destroy the weapon? Destroying the weapon would be very bad, but temporarily disrupting each other power weapons still leaves you with a really sharp sword to duel with. Also, given how deadly most power weapons are, it is probably best if one avoids being hit by one in the first place, or uses a special energy field (Storm shields and the projection on an iron halo or suit of terminator armor, for instance)

[Tome]

Originally Posted by Maquise

I have another question:

I thought I read that Power weapons don't block one another, but destroy one another when they come in contact. So, how would one duel with power weapons?

That's not quite right, if I recall correctly.

Power weapons destroy mundane weapons. You can only parry one with either another power weapon, or something more exotic like a Force weapon or Daemonsword or what have you.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf

Well, since you're rewriting this, I think it's only fair to say that there's about a million versions of this fine song, depending on the period, but if you want some extra verses that really fit, this was the theme tune to "Sharpe", that excellent piece of British filmmaking. /British propaganda. John Tams, who also played Rifleman Hagman, sang a verse at the end of each episode.

Linky

*Looks at his Sharpe boxset*

I'm well aware there's lots of different versions, but since the Gaunt's influence is Sharpe, I decided to modify that version of it.

One of the things I'm not sure about is the 40 shillings bit - according to some research, a farm labourer in the 1800s would earn 9 shillings a week, so a recruitment bounty of 40 shillings would be a fair chunk of money.
I've no idea how much purchasing power a throne has, as I don't have access to any of the 40k RPGs. Some threads I've found suggest that there isn't a single unified currency, with sectors and planets all using their own localised scripts and the Imperium itself just taxing in goods (manpower, vehicles, food, ore etc).

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Tome

That's not quite right, if I recall correctly.

Power weapons destroy mundane weapons. You can only parry one with either another power weapon, or something more exotic like a Force weapon or Daemonsword or what have you.

And the more powerful power weapons (relic blades and the like) have a chance of sundering even other power weapons- in the Deathwatch game.

[Tome]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

I've no idea how much purchasing power a throne has, as I don't have access to any of the 40k RPGs. Some threads I've found suggest that there isn't a single unified currency, with sectors and planets all using their own localised scripts and the Imperium itself just taxing in goods (manpower, vehicles, food, ore etc).

Yeah, there's a fair bit of variance across the Imperium, but Thrones are the most commonly accepted form, at least in certain sectors.

As for how much a Throne is worth, 1 Throne is worth a really cheap meal or 20 bullets. 40 Thrones will get you a pocketwatch, a fancy meal or a basic handgun to fire those bullets with.

Menial workers get paid 30 Thrones a month, while IG conscripts get 50.

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by Tome

Menial workers get paid 30 Thrones a month, while IG conscripts get 50.

Which is, of course, absolutely absurd. Menials literally cannot afford to feed themselves and have housing at the same time based on Dark Heresy's pricing system, much less afford clothing and raise children as well, or alcohol, or anything else, while Guard Conscripts have all that provided for them, meaning that just a year in the PDF or Guard will give you an amount of money to spend far in excess of what a whole hab block can hope to accumulate in their entire lifetime even if they don't have to pay for their housing. Best to just not look at it too closely and move on; Dark Heresy's economic system is at least as broken as D&D's, and possibly more so. The listed prices would only work at all if incomes were at least 50% higher across the board, and even then essentials are vastly overpriced in comparison to just about everything else.

[LansXero]

Arent Hive World economies run by smugglers and black market dealers anyways? Id assume DH prices are "official" listings that are a pipe dream and most people get their stuff far, far cheaper.