Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by LansXero

Arent Hive World economies run by smugglers and black market dealers anyways? Id assume DH prices are "official" listings that are a pipe dream and most people get their stuff far, far cheaper.

Wouldn't smugglers and black marketeers would be marking their prices up usually. I figured the DH prices were the underworld/black market economy prices, because Inquisitorial henchpeople wouldn't be able to draw from standard Imperial supply lines or vendors on-the-job, particularly for stuff like weapons. So the same as your hypothesis, but reversed - for the average civilian, costs are cheaper.

[Feriority]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Wouldn't smugglers and black marketeers would be marking their prices up usually. I figured the DH prices were the underworld/black market economy prices, because Inquisitorial henchpeople wouldn't be able to draw from standard Imperial supply lines or vendors on-the-job, particularly for stuff like weapons. So the same as your hypothesis, but reversed - for the average civilian, costs are cheaper.

Smugglers mark their prices up for goods you can't purchase elsewhere; they have a monopoly, and they have to cover their risks.

For goods you *can*, though, the black market still has to compete with the normal market. If you increase the costs on food, nobody will buy from you (because the official sources are cheaper). Even if the official sources are underproviding, you still have the problem, as mentioned, that nobody can afford anything. If you charge two days' wages for a single meal, you won't be selling much because people won't be able to buy much. Not to mention your customers all die, and dead customers aren't repeat customers.

The flipside of that is that between the increased risk, the cost of actually doing your illegal actions, and the need to have lower prices, black market goods available to the hab dwellers are probably going to be significantly worse in quality, because the cost has to be cut somewhere. Not that your customers complain much, because you're their only viable source of food, no matter how bad.

This may well be more thought than was put into the pricing system, though.

[Squark]

So, read Nightbringer today. Overall, a fun read, and I felt the need to cheer for several of the background characters who died particularly heroically. But I can't help noticing... Did McNiel kill off half the fourth company in his first short story and novel?

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Feriority

Smugglers mark their prices up for goods you can't purchase elsewhere; they have a monopoly, and they have to cover their risks.

For goods you *can*, though, the black market still has to compete with the normal market. If you increase the costs on food, nobody will buy from you (because the official sources are cheaper). Even if the official sources are underproviding, you still have the problem, as mentioned, that nobody can afford anything. If you charge two days' wages for a single meal, you won't be selling much because people won't be able to buy much. Not to mention your customers all die, and dead customers aren't repeat customers.

The flipside of that is that between the increased risk, the cost of actually doing your illegal actions, and the need to have lower prices, black market goods available to the hab dwellers are probably going to be significantly worse in quality, because the cost has to be cut somewhere. Not that your customers complain much, because you're their only viable source of food, no matter how bad.

This may well be more thought than was put into the pricing system, though.

Where you're going to have Black Market goods be cheaper is when you have stuff like high tariffs/Sales Tax, quality regulations, or a state-backed monopoly (Or the government setting a minimum price). In the first case, Black Marketeers sell for cheaper because they're not paying the taxes. In the second case they can cut corners official sources won't allow, and in the third case they're competing against an artificially inflated price.

[Hazzardevil]

Quick question. Did the Emperor name every chapter of space marines?
Because the names seem too random to have been made by one man, but I can't think of anyone else of sufficient rank to have named all of the chapters after the heresy.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

Quick question. Did the Emperor name every chapter of space marines?
Because the names seem too random to have been made by one man, but I can't think of anyone else of sufficient rank to have named all of the chapters after the heresy.

Pendantic, but the Emperor didn't name any chapters - they were Legions when he was around, and split into Chapters afterwards. I think the names were given by the High Lords of Terra and/or the leaders of the new chapter when a new Founding is declared, usually a derivative of the original chapter/legion's name.

[Tome]

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

Quick question. Did the Emperor name every chapter of space marines?
Because the names seem too random to have been made by one man, but I can't think of anyone else of sufficient rank to have named all of the chapters after the heresy.

I'll assume you mean the founding Legions, not Chapters.

No, no he didn't.

The names by which you know the various Legions are all ones given by their Primarchs. They had other names before the Primarchs were found, though there's no indication if those were actually given by the Emperor or (more likely) came from some other source like Malcador or the Legion itself.

Chapters are named either by the High Lords or by the Chapter itself.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Tome

The names by which you know the various Legions are all ones given by their Primarchs. They had other names before the Primarchs were found, though there's no indication if those were actually given by the Emperor or (more likely) came from some other source like Malcador or the Legion itself.

Huh.

Is there a canonical list of all the pre-Founding Legion names?

[Tome]

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

Huh.

Is there a canonical list of all the pre-Founding Legion names?

This may be a helpful resource for that question.

We only know the original names of five out of the original twenty Legions. The First (Dark Angels), War Hounds (World Eaters), Dusk Raiders (Death Guard), Luna Wolves (Sons of Horus/Black Legion) and the Imperial Heralds (Word Bearers). The Luna Wolves are something of a special case, as Horus was with the Emperor pretty much from the start and the name may thus have been Horus' choice. The Emperor's choices otherwise appear to be fairly indicative of what the legion actually did (the Dusk Raiders attacked at dusk etc).

[hamishspence]

I'm wondering just how big 40K ships get? Some references are a bit more vague- like the Phalanx being the size of a "small moon".

From the Horus Heresy book A Thousand Sons: approximate size for a mass conveyor:

page 469:

Set high on the rear quarter of the Cypria Selene, the dome provided a commanding view over the vast superstructure of the mass conveyor. Its hull stretched away from them for sixty kilometres, ending in a blunt wedge of a snout. For a vessel intended to carry vast quantities of war materiel, troops and bulk items of warfare and compliance, it was handsomely appointed.

putting it at between 60 and 80 km- given that the dome is somewhere on the "rear quarter" of the ship.

Quite a lot bigger than the Universe class mass conveyor from Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus.

[Platinius]

That's massive ship, even by even by 40k standards of Beyond the impossible, in fact it is as big/bigger than a few (important) nations I can think of.

[hamishspence]

In the 5E rulebook timeline, a troopship (Emperor's Faithful) has a crew size of 200,000 and a passenger capacity of 5 million.

Compared to the 60,000 crew and 500,000 passengers of the 12 km long Universe class (Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus)

so- there is some support for the notion of ships bigger than the aforementioned Universe class.

[Silus]

Hey, question regarding the Chaos Gods for this fic I'm writing.

How would they react to Lovecraftian abominations from beyond the universe and sanity? Would they be able to beat them, or would they be so beyond their comprehension as to make them nothing more than a deity powered super snack?

We're not talking about the low tier things like Cthulhu, but rather the Lovecraftian overdeities like Azathoth and the like. Like that level of stuff vs Chaos Gods.

[Tychris1]

Chaos Gods are entities of emotions and concepts, within a plane that with it's full force cannot be contained and warps all around it. The lack of a mortal coil by itself grants them an advantage. And they are powered by humanity and everything with a brain and personality of some kind.

They'd rival them pretty easily (If not trump them with their endless horde of chaos daemons and beasts).

[GolemsVoice]

Well, the Chaos gods are basically such beings themselves, especially Tzeentch, since they, too, are in the end more or less beyond mortal comprehension. Also, given that those kind of beings are already around (although in smaller form), they probably would accept it and try to react to any danger. I mean they live in the Warp, which is formed by human emotions, but incredibly strange.

[Tome]

Originally Posted by Silus

Hey, question regarding the Chaos Gods for this fic I'm writing.

How would they react to Lovecraftian abominations from beyond the universe and sanity? Would they be able to beat them, or would they be so beyond their comprehension as to make them nothing more than a deity powered super snack?

We're not talking about the low tier things like Cthulhu, but rather the Lovecraftian overdeities like Azathoth and the like. Like that level of stuff vs Chaos Gods.

The Chaos Gods and the Outer Gods are basically the same sort of entity, it's just that everyone in 40K is so much more badass than anyone in Lovecraft's works.

The Chaos Gods might be a little weaker in some respects than Azathoth, but combined they probably stand equal with him if he were actually awake. They certainly wouldn't have any problems understanding him, particularly Tzeentch.

Anything less than an Outer God is just another horrifyingly powerful entity in a Galaxy filled with the damn things. They'd be no more of a threat than a C'Tan - and the Necrons at least have proved they know how to kill those. Anyone able to deal with the warp would likely have few problems handling their alien natures as well.

[Silus]

Originally Posted by Tome

The Chaos Gods and the Outer Gods are basically the same sort of entity, it's just that everyone in 40K is so much more badass than anyone in Lovecraft's works.

The Chaos Gods might be a little weaker in some respects than Azathoth, but combined they probably stand equal with him if he were actually awake. They certainly wouldn't have any problems understanding him, particularly Tzeentch.

Anything less than an Outer God is just another horrifyingly powerful entity in a Galaxy filled with the damn things. They'd be no more of a threat than a C'Tan - and the Necrons at least have proved they know how to kill those. Anyone able to deal with the warp would likely have few problems handling their alien natures as well.

How about a "weakened" Chaos God vs something of an Azathoth level?

Fic based stuff

Spoiler

The idea for the tail end of the fic (Which kinda left serious canon behind around chapter.....8-10. Too much serious canon following was killing the rule-of-cool vibe I was trying to go for) is that the protagonist (A guardsman) ascends to something like an uber-champion, getting his power directly from Tzeentch (With the mission to directly off the other three God's center of power over a world). We're talking about taking on Khorne demons more or less bare handed (Until he gets his hands on a Bloodletter's sword, then things take a turn for the cool) while supercharged with Chaos energy. Near the very end of the fic, he'll have discovered how to leech the divine energy off of Tzeentch to further the God's goals (Like using said power to force an Imperial ship into a position to fire a Lance strike on a Great Unclean One, all from the ground).

One of the two endings I've in mind (with the Lovecraftian monsters) is that the protagonist has leeched so much divine energy that Tzeentch is a few pegs down on the deity totem pole and the hero is just short of Demigod status. Using the power and the precog-powers that come with the deity energy (At least from Tzeentch), he manages to anticipate what will happen at the end, leeches MORE power, and uses it to rip the warp open and get the attention of a Lovecraftian over-deity (Note really Lovecraft, but the same sort of flavor). Tzeentch, now weakened from the power leech, gets eaten by the horror due to existing on a higher plane of existence than the mortal protagonist. Like a bird spotting a cockroach and ignoring the ant next to it. The horror then retreats, leaving a gaping hole in reality which sucks in the protagonist, taking him to the next story (And, since Tzeentch is gone, draining all the divine energy from him).

The other ending is that Tzeentch takes the power back, congratulates the hero, then warpstorms him and his squad to another time and place (The next story).

[Tychris1]

Well, it's a fanfic. Tzeentch could be the secret emperor with a evil goatee and mustache for all that matters (While Gork and Mork just turn out to be Nurgle's butt cheeks). But if you really want to stay truish to the fluff then you should know that Tzeentch is an all knowing being, he knows what everyone (Except the other chaos gods) is going to do 1 millenia before they even think about doing it. A champion of Tzeentch couldn't possibly hope to manipulate him without either getting royally screwed (Such as Tzeentch going "Lol, that was just you siphoning the power of all these orphaned children destined to become the next primarchs and save the galaxy. Now i'm going to have to turn you into a pink horror. Kthnxbye") or getting tricked into screwing themselves over. And you couldn't "swallow him whole" because to do so would be to swallow fate, destiny, planning, pure chaos, change, magic, and thought. You can't quite swallow concepts up.

The second ending would be more fitting for a budding Chaos Lord (Because that's what I assume you mean by "Uber-Champion, but it's Tzeentch so you might mean sorcerer) on the cusp of true warp power (With an edit of having Tzeentch stuck in a violent and chaotic fight between him and the Outer God). Also, to absorb so much power from Tzeentch to the point that you physically weaken him would mean your protagonist probably wields ultimate arcane power, can drive men insane/traitorous schemers with a glance, and can even cover whole planets in a writhing swarm of pink horrors and flamers of tzeentch.

[Silus]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

Well, it's a fanfic. Tzeentch could be the secret emperor with a evil goatee and mustache for all that matters (While Gork and Mork just turn out to be Nurgle's butt cheeks). But if you really want to stay truish to the fluff then you should know that Tzeentch is an all knowing being, he knows what everyone (Except the other chaos gods) is going to do 1 millenia before they even think about doing it. A champion of Tzeentch couldn't possibly hope to manipulate him without either getting royally screwed (Such as Tzeentch going "Lol, that was just you siphoning the power of all these orphaned children destined to become the next primarchs and save the galaxy. Now i'm going to have to turn you into a pink horror. Kthnxbye") or getting tricked into screwing themselves over. And you couldn't "swallow him whole" because to do so would be to swallow fate, destiny, planning, pure chaos, change, magic, and thought. You can't quite swallow concepts up.

The second ending would be more fitting for a budding Chaos Lord (Because that's what I assume you mean by "Uber-Champion, but it's Tzeentch so you might mean sorcerer) on the cusp of true warp power (With an edit of having Tzeentch stuck in a violent and chaotic fight between him and the Outer God). Also, to absorb so much power from Tzeentch to the point that you physically weaken him would mean your protagonist probably wields ultimate arcane power, can drive men insane/traitorous schemers with a glance, and can even cover whole planets in a writhing swarm of pink horrors and flamers of tzeentch.

Well not so much with the budding Chaos Champion thing. Part of the "deal" was that the hero stay un-mutated, if only to maintain the appearance of a regular human to further Tzeentch's goals. And of course the hero has his own goals that probably run counter to Tzeentch's, hence the double cross via Lovecraft.

But yeah, I think the "canon" ending for the fic will be option #2 with #1 being a sort of "Bonus Chapter". And I'd figure "eating" Tzeentch would just eliminate the divine manifestation of those concepts, not the concepts themselves.

[Tychris1]

The divine manifestation of those concepts is the concepts. Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle, and Slaanesh have been and always will be. Since the first sentient being manifested, it felt anger or violence, it felt decay and death, it felt pleasure and excess, and it felt destiny and planning of some kind. They can't be "Removed", since removing them would be the equivelant of removing ones brain and lungs.

And while physical mutation could be held back for a time (if the lord of change willed it) but it would not last long, but mental mutation (Insanity and reverence for Tzeentch) would not most likely be stopped. As the warp just passively eats away at ones mind, like maggots on a carcass.

[houlio]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

The divine manifestation of those concepts is the concepts. Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle, and Slaanesh have been and always will be. Since the first sentient being manifested, it felt anger or violence, it felt decay and death, it felt pleasure and excess, and it felt destiny and planning of some kind. They can't be "Removed", since removing them would be the equivelant of removing ones brain and lungs.

And while physical mutation could be held back for a time (if the lord of change willed it) but it would not last long, but mental mutation (Insanity and reverence for Tzeentch) would not most likely be stopped. As the warp just passively eats away at ones mind, like maggots on a carcass.

Wasn't Slaanesh canonically born from the Eldar being all opulent and excessive? And aren't they also canonically creating a new god to go kill Slaanesh? And weren't the previous Eldar gods (Khaine, Asuryan, Kurnuous, and company) all killed by Slaanesh?

Seems to me like Chaos Gods can have a beginning and an end without ending the things they represent. It simply is that in order to make sure that another Slaanesh 2.0 or whatever showed up, you'd have to remove all pleasure and excess from the universe forever.

[CN the Logos]

Originally Posted by Silus

Hey, question regarding the Chaos Gods for this fic I'm writing.

How would they react to Lovecraftian abominations from beyond the universe and sanity? Would they be able to beat them, or would they be so beyond their comprehension as to make them nothing more than a deity powered super snack?

We're not talking about the low tier things like Cthulhu, but rather the Lovecraftian overdeities like Azathoth and the like. Like that level of stuff vs Chaos Gods.

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

Well, the Chaos gods are basically such beings themselves, especially Tzeentch, since they, too, are in the end more or less beyond mortal comprehension. Also, given that those kind of beings are already around (although in smaller form), they probably would accept it and try to react to any danger. I mean they live in the Warp, which is formed by human emotions, but incredibly strange.

Originally Posted by Tome

The Chaos Gods and the Outer Gods are basically the same sort of entity, it's just that everyone in 40K is so much more badass than anyone in Lovecraft's works.

The Chaos Gods might be a little weaker in some respects than Azathoth, but combined they probably stand equal with him if he were actually awake. They certainly wouldn't have any problems understanding him, particularly Tzeentch.[...]

Going to give you a strongly dissenting opinion here, based on actually having read Lovecraft's descriptions of the entities in question.*

No, Chaos is not on the same level as the Outer Gods. Not even close. While the Chaos Gods are the manifestations of sentient life's collective consciousness, the Outer Gods (meaning the major entities; Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath, and Nyarlathotep, not Cthulhu et al.) are entirely independent beings, connected to things that existed long before life arose in the Milky Way galaxy and will continue to exist long after it dies out.

They aren't dependent on belief or worship in any way whatsoever. In fact, Lovecraft's Dream Cycle of stories actually contained "gods" formed by the collective subconscious of humanity similar in nature to 40k's warp entities; Nyarlathotep was openly contemptuous of them, although protecting them from mortals who would try to kill or coerce them seems to be part of his function. While the Outer Gods do seem to be loosely tied to concepts, they aren't concepts that can be defeated by refusing to acknowledge them or destroying their source: Yog-Sothoth is literally everything that exists, has existed or will ever exist, Shub-Niggurath is apparently the reason life exists and evolves, Nyarlathotep is entropy, and Azathoth seemingly exists to continually create universes. Plural.

Defeating say, Azathoth, would thus require the ability to leave the universe to travel to the Court of Azathoth, where the Lord of All continually plays his cracked flute that determines the entire laws of physics for what universes(s) are being formed based on whatever note Azathoth hits at the moment those universes come into being. Then you'd have to have some form of attack that could damage a being that constantly excretes the energy content of multiple Big Bangs with no ill effects to itself. And if it noticed you, let alone recognized you as a threat, you would then have to be able to survive a counter attack made with the energy of however many Big Bangs. And finally, if you did all that and somehow won, congratulations. Everything that exists is brought into existence by Azathoth, including you. There are easier ways to commit suicide. A fight with any of the other Outer Gods has more or less the same outcome, with only the particulars of your doom changing.

Meanwhile, the "Ruinous Powers" can't leave the dreamworld Warp, and are sort of maybe kind of the most pressing threat facing a single galaxy, which they don't seem to have any influence outside of. And they're based on the subconscious hangups of two sapient species, which last I checked could die, and are in danger of doing just that. The source of their existence being eaten by Giger-aliens is a legitimate threat to the Chaos Gods.

Understand, I'm not an apologist for Lovecraft's philosophy, nor do I have some sort of stake in his critters being the most powerful and scary critters. Lovecraft's belief that comprehending the true nature of reality would invariably drive anyone mad was more a product of his own neuroses than anything else. But misrepresenting the man's work for the sake of crossover fanfiction just seems... tacky.

Anything less than an Outer God is just another horrifyingly powerful entity in a Galaxy filled with the damn things. They'd be no more of a threat than a C'Tan - and the Necrons at least have proved they know how to kill those. Anyone able to deal with the warp would likely have few problems handling their alien natures as well.

This I will concede. Cthulhu is probably not much worse than a pre-sharding C'tan.

[personalarmyfluffthatnoonecaresabout]In fact, I'm currently working on a Necron army and using this as my C'tan shard proxy... the idea being that Cthulhu is, in fact, a C'tan, with his form on Earth just being an especially large and powerful shard. The Shard of Cthulhu in the service of my 'Crons is hoping to manipulate them into putting him in a position to merge with other shards of his being and become whole again, whereupon he will turn the tables on the impudent creatures responsible for his current state.[/personalarmyfluffthatnoonecaresabout]




* Not meaning to imply that none of the others commenting have ever read any Lovecraft, but the relevant descriptions of the Outer Gods' rough power levels and abilities are found scattered throughout his Dream Cycle and The Fungi From Yuggoth, which are more obscure than most of his Cthulhu Mythos work. And the former really does add to the latter, in my opinion. In fact, I'd say The Fungi From Yuggoth is better than the vast majority of Lovecraft's prose.

[Knight13]

Originally Posted by houlio

Wasn't Slaanesh canonically born from the Eldar being all opulent and excessive? And aren't they also canonically creating a new god to go kill Slaanesh? And weren't the previous Eldar gods (Khaine, Asuryan, Kurnuous, and company) all killed by Slaanesh?

Seems to me like Chaos Gods can have a beginning and an end without ending the things they represent. It simply is that in order to make sure that another Slaanesh 2.0 or whatever showed up, you'd have to remove all pleasure and excess from the universe forever.

Yes and no. It's difficult to say exactly when the Chaos gods were "born". They probably existed in some sort of proto-form ever since the first sentient beings arose. They only gained independence and the ability to actively impose their will on the Warp once a certain critical mass of emotion was reached. The opulence and debauchery of the Eldar did indeed awaken Slaanesh, the event that also decimated the Eldar empire and created the Eye of Terror, but Slaanesh probably existed in some fashion even before that.

As for the Eldar gods, they were apparently normal Eldar that somehow ascended. Most of them were devoured by Slaanesh when he awakened, now there are three left: Kaela Mensha Khaine, who's soul was shattered and now exists in the infinity circuits and through his Avatars, Isha, who Nurgle kidnapped and keeps in his garden, and the Laughing God, who's probably off trolling the C'tan. The Craftworld Eldar believe that once all of their souls are joined in the infinity circuits it will give rise to a new god called Ynnead who will be able to kill Slaanesh.

[Silus]

Originally Posted by CN the Logos

Understand, I'm not an apologist for Lovecraft's philosophy, nor do I have some sort of stake in his critters being the most powerful and scary critters. Lovecraft's belief that comprehending the true nature of reality would invariably drive anyone mad was more a product of his own neuroses than anything else. But misrepresenting the man's work for the sake of crossover fanfiction just seems... tacky.

In my defense, I'm mostly using them as a "bigger fish" kinda thing ('cause there's always a bigger fish). Only thing I could think of that's more powerful than a Chaos God is something in the ranks of an Overdeity, and the only things persistent enough to be around after 40k years would be the Lovecraftian ones 'cause hey, they don't need worshipers.

'Sides, just picture Khorne trying to kill off Shub-Niggurath and its young. If anything, it would keep the God occupied for a good, long while.

But yeah, it is a bit tacky, which is why I'm probably just gonna stick it in a bonus chapter as a sort of treat to myself. Thanks for the feedback though. The guys I was asking earlier kept screaming that "it's not canon, it's bad and you should feel bad and you should just delete all your writings" Never you mind that I left strict canon behind at like chapter 10....

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Knight13

Yes and no. It's difficult to say exactly when the Chaos gods were "born". They probably existed in some sort of proto-form ever since the first sentient beings arose. They only gained independence and the ability to actively impose their will on the Warp once a certain critical mass of emotion was reached. The opulence and debauchery of the Eldar did indeed awaken Slaanesh, the event that also decimated the Eldar empire and created the Eye of Terror, but Slaanesh probably existed in some fashion even before that.

As for the Eldar gods, they were apparently normal Eldar that somehow ascended. Most of them were devoured by Slaanesh when he awakened, now there are three left: Kaela Mensha Khaine, who's soul was shattered and now exists in the infinity circuits and through his Avatars, Isha, who Nurgle kidnapped and keeps in his garden, and the Laughing God, who's probably off trolling the C'tan. The Craftworld Eldar believe that once all of their souls are joined in the infinity circuits it will give rise to a new god called Ynnead who will be able to kill Slaanesh.

Is it just me, or is Khaine not horribly similar to Khorne, Isha not linked to Nurgle terribly, being his mirror image, and the Laughing God basically the same as Tzeentch.

Of course, that makes Ynnead the parallel of Slaanesh, to be created by the Eldar.

I'm seeing horrible Aspects of the Chaos Gods here, and a good chance of the Eldar repeating themselves (history starts over?).

The Eldar are stupid. At least the Emperor was/is a badass (even if he was a terribly irresponsible father).

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Is it just me, or is Khaine not horribly similar to Khorne, Isha not linked to Nurgle terribly, being his mirror image, and the Laughing God basically the same as Tzeentch.

The Old Ones are not the Enslavers.
...And apparently there's two meanings to the word 'Enslaver', but in this case, it means Chaos Gods, rather than that plague...

Khaine is Gork, and Cegorach is Mork.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

The Old Ones are not the Enslavers.
...And apparently there's two meanings to the word 'Enslaver', but in this case, it means Chaos Gods, rather than that plague...

Khaine is Gork, and Cegorach is Mork.

Heh.

I was of the opinion that the Eldar Gods are basically ascended Eldar(sort of like the Emperor, but less bad ass), as opposed to Old Ones, beings that were possibly once mortals, but are now deities of a sort.

The surviving Eldar Gods appear to be slightly more benign (well, Khaine isn't, but he's controllable), ordered forms of the Chaos Gods. There are four (well, if you count Ynnead), and their areas of influence seem to match the Chaos deities in some way.

Considering weird time warping effects that the Eye of Terror has after the Eldar went and made it, I can see there being a link here. I've no idea what it could be, but I could have fun with it in an RPG, that's for sure.

Talking of the Old Ones, what relics of Old Ones technology are left lying around, and who has them? What do the Inquisition know?

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Talking of the Old Ones, what relics of Old Ones technology are left lying around, and who has them? What do the Inquisition know?

Blackstone Fortresses, Orks, Eldar, Joka(e?)ri, and maybe humans.

...And pretty much nothing. They did sort of lose a galatic battle-to-the-death a million years ago.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Khaine is Gork, and Cegorach is Mork.

According to what? Xenology? Isn't that somewhat unreliable due to who it turned out wrote it?

Gav Thorpe's Path of the Warrior suggests that, according to Eldar legend, Khaine is "a child of Khorne and Slaanesh, yet beholden to neither" though this raises chronology issues, since Slaanesh would have not awoken to consciousness back then.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

Blackstone Fortresses, Orks, Eldar, Joka(e?)ri, and maybe humans.

...And pretty much nothing. They did sort of lose a galatic battle-to-the-death a million years ago.

So did the C'Tan, but even they left phase swords...

I don't think the Old Ones actually made humans... they seem to be apart, and something special, actually.

The Blackstone Fortresses may not be made by the Old Ones either, they could be old Necron tech for killing C'Tan?

On another note:

The Emperor totally used sorcery to create the Primarchs, didn't he? If he used science, he could have just made more when they disappeared, right? Science doesn't create one-offs, after all. He made a pact with Chaos and managed a crappy draw at best, right?