Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[hamishspence]

The old Necron Codex called them The Talismans of Vaul- Vaul being the Eldar god of the forge.

In the Eye of Terror campaign, Eldar is sucked into the Corrupted infinity circuit of one of them.

Suggesting some Eldarish nature to them.

I did wonder if this might be retconned- with it instead being a tesseract labyrinth, and with the Blackstones being used by the Necrons to shatter the C'tan.

On humans- while when the Old Ones were beaten, and the Necrons went into stasis, 60 million years ago, the humans were only shrewish-looking proto primates, the Old Necron codex said the Pariah gene in humans was the result of "a terrible crop planted in ages past" by "the Devoured Ones"- seems like a hint at Necron meddling.

Maybe with the new codex saying the Triarch Praetorians were awake all that time, it now makes more sense that they were the ones meddling with humans, much later on.

[DontEatRawHagis]

So I was talking to a friend and he said how much he hates how their are a crap ton of Space Marines and not enough color schemes for the other races. Here is my 2 minute research:

300 Still Loyal
69 Chaos Space Marines
10 Lost
12 left blank on the Lexicanum
5 with ???? according to the Lexicanum
4 Renegade (1 of which still supporting the Imperium?)
2 Expunged, because they are from the lost primarchs

That's about 349 chapters.

Necron Dynasties and Dark Eldar Kabals are a crap ton. Though less than Space Marines.

Imperial Guard a crap ton of Regiments as well, too much to count.

Tau 22 colonies and one Homeworld.

Tyranids three main hive fleets and 19 minor ones.

Five Major Craftworld and 20 minor ones for Eldar.


Orks?
9 clans including Speed Freaks and Feral.

Any of these numbers surprise anyone? I'm pretty surprised about the Orks, but then again, I'm biased.

[Squark]

So, I finally got around to finishing the Ultramarines Omnibus. Overall, I like the characters and found it fairly engaging, although I wish Warriors of Ultramar had spent more time dealing with how Space Marines deal with what they gave up by becoming space marines, but I can understand why that might hurt the narrative flow some. Black Sun, Dead Sky (Might be the other way arround) was a lot of fun, although I think my favorite characters were the Unfleshed; There's just something strangely sad and yet heroic about all they've gone through, and it still hasn't dashed their faith in the Emperor.

Spoiler

I really thought Ardaric Vaanes was going to come back for a heroic redemption. I wonder if McNiell deliberately channeled Han Solo's line in A New Hope there to mislead readers.

[Borgh]

Originally Posted by DontEatRawHagis

So I was talking to a friend and he said how much he hates how their are a crap ton of Space Marines and not enough color schemes for the other races. Here is my 2 minute research:

300 Still Loyal
69 Chaos Space Marines
10 Lost
12 left blank on the Lexicanum
5 with ???? according to the Lexicanum
4 Renegade (1 of which still supporting the Imperium?)
2 Expunged, because they are from the lost primarchs

That's about 349 chapters.

Necron Dynasties and Dark Eldar Kabals are a crap ton. Though less than Space Marines.

Imperial Guard a crap ton of Regiments as well, too much to count.

Tau 22 colonies and one Homeworld.

Tyranids three main hive fleets and 19 minor ones.

Five Major Craftworld and 20 minor ones for Eldar.


Orks?
9 clans including Speed Freaks and Feral.

Any of these numbers surprise anyone? I'm pretty surprised about the Orks, but then again, I'm biased.

Woohoo, back to screaming at the top of my lungs about fluff! I've missed this.
(note: the following is not yet screamed at the top of my lungs.)
I'm fairly sure the numbers are quite a bit larger then what you thought of in here. I'm sure for starters that the BRB states somewhere that there are around a 1000 chapters of loyalists at most times and then there are the infinite number of Chaos warbands, possibly each with their own heraldry. Add this to all the chapters who got lost over time and might crop up though "the warp did it" shenanigans you have several thousand possibilities.

The Dark eldar are indeed a crapton and I'd argue there is more variety then in the Space marines as there are possibly billions of dark eldar, ranging from the greatest Kabals to minor raiding-unions, not even including the garishly coloured Wych cults, jetbike teams and other more individually oriented bits. so several thousand possibilities at the least here.

As for necron, their worlds are pretty much everywhere and I'd say each world and possibly each royal court has its own heraldy so lots of variety there as well.

IG, yup, billions of guardsmen in millions of regiments in an infinity of campaigns will provide every variety you can think of.

Tau I don't really know but don't they use camouflage?

The Tyranids are stated to adapt to circumstance and, biologically, one of the easiest things to adapt is colour. This means that there are as many Tyranid coulour schemes as here are times the hive mind went "maybe bright blue is not that great as camo"

For the Weaklings you need to include the Maiden and Exodite words. This somewhat enlarges their number but it still isn't many.

So I'd aggue there is an almost infinite number of paint schemes that you can make Canonically correct without any effort at all.

[Squark]

I have a question about how a new chapter is founded; Is all the base geneseed of that chapter from a single founding chapter? Also, does a newly founded chapter consider itself a successor of the first founding chapter it shares its geenseed with, or could, for example, you have a Black Templars successor chapter?

[DaedalusMkV]

As to where the Geneseed comes from, it depends on how and when the Chapter is being founded. There are basically two ways for a new Chapter to be founded; directly by a parent Chapter, or at the order of the High Lords of Terra from the Adeptus Mechanicus and Inquisition Geneseed stores. The former happens when a Chapter has enough neophytes and Marines that it's exceeding the Codex organization and enough Geneseed stores for rapid recruitment, all in-house. In this case, the Geneseed all comes from that Chapter's pool, and would be considered a Successor to that Chapter directly, and to that Chapter's First Founding Legion indirectly. So, if the Crimson Fists had an excess of Marines (not that they do), they might Found a new Successor Chapter, who would be considered Crimson Fists Successors first, Imperial Fists Successors roughly equally and spiritual followers of Dorn.

The other route, as exemplified with the Cursed Foundings, uses Geneseed from only the Inquisition and Mechanicus knows where, with Chapters that mostly don't even know which Primarch their Gene-stock comes from, with rumours that leftover Geneseed from Traitor Legions was used for, say, the Minotaurs (I think).

In practice, there are already two Black Templars Successors (probably), the White and Red Templars, though the Whites are unconfirmed because the BT don't exactly share much with the rest of the Imperium. At least the Red Templars were merely a gesture to appease the Inquisition and attempt to look like a Codex chapter. In short, there's nothing preventing you from having a Successor to whatever Chapter you want, as long as it's not a Cursed Founding Chapter.

[GolemsVoice]

And even then. Aren't some chapters rumoured to be Cursed Foundung successors?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

Aren't some chapters rumoured to be Cursed Foundung successors?

No. All of the Cursed Founding Chapters have extremely poor geneseed integrity and retention and have enough trouble keeping their own Chapters at fighting strength, let alone founding a new Chapter.

[Lord_Gareth]

In a slightly related question, how are new orders of the Adeptas Sororitas formed? What, precisely, causes some to swear vows of chastity and not others and, finally, what kinds of orders see active combat duty?

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

No. All of the Cursed Founding Chapters have extremely poor geneseed integrity and retention and have enough trouble keeping their own Chapters at fighting strength, let alone founding a new Chapter.

What he said. Basically, the Cursed Founding was a resounding failure on all counts. The Chapters that were part of the Founding suffer universally from massive issues with their Gene-stock, whether that be as Cheesegear said Chapters with extreme issues maintaining a pool of functional Geneseed to maintain their numbers or horrible impurities in the gene-stock causing mutations (Black Dragons, Blood Gorgons) and aberrant behavior (Minotaurs, Lamenters). Either of these problems outright eliminates their ability to Found new Chapters, either because of lack of numbers or straight-up Imperial bans on spreading their mutation-causing Geneseed.

In other words, when Fabius Bile looks at your work and says "Hey, when did the Imperium start listening to me? You guys want to swap notes?" (Paraphrased), you know that there's something wrong with it.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

In a slightly related question, how are new orders of the Adeptas Sororitas formed? What, precisely, causes some to swear vows of chastity and not others and, finally, what kinds of orders see active combat duty?

Sororitas Convents are pretty much wherever any decent Schola Progenium is, where resources also allow ready acquisition of Bolters and Power Armour. Sororitas are basically picked out, similar to Commissars, Assassins and other kinds of Imperial Agents.

You go to school, you're female, and some Inquisitor/Senior Sororitas likes the cut of your jib. You get drafted. I'm unclear whether or not you're allowed to turn down the offer. Other times you just get left at the convent and you're raised as a Battle Sister. I understand that the majority of Sisters come from Orphanariums.

What causes you to swear vows? Guns to your head, personal trauma that you need to fix, choosing the life of a badarse. Why do people join nunneries in the real world? Don't answer that. It's rhetorical. 'Nuns with Guns' isn't far off the mark.

The Sisters are divided into four Orders;
Order Militant - The Battle Sisters that you're familiar with.
Order Hospitaller - Medics and Nurses. Not uncommon for them to see combat duty (and positions as an Inquisitor Acolyte). But they're equally as likely to be in a Hive or some well-funded Medicae that has the resources to acquisition Sororitas.
Order Dialogous - Diplomats
Order Famulous - Teachers and Chaplains. In the sense of a real-wrold Chaplain, not in the Space Marine sense. Typically these ones tend to be older, retired versions of the above three, but not always.

Only the first two are likely to see combat.

[Kris Strife]

Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV

What he said. Basically, the Cursed Founding was a resounding failure on all counts. The Chapters that were part of the Founding suffer universally from massive issues with their Gene-stock, whether that be as Cheesegear said Chapters with extreme issues maintaining a pool of functional Geneseed to maintain their numbers or horrible impurities in the gene-stock causing mutations (Black Dragons, Blood Gorgons) and aberrant behavior (Minotaurs, Lamenters). Either of these problems outright eliminates their ability to Found new Chapters, either because of lack of numbers or straight-up Imperial bans on spreading their mutation-causing Geneseed.

In other words, when Fabius Bile looks at your work and says "Hey, when did the Imperium start listening to me? You guys want to swap notes?" (Paraphrased), you know that there's something wrong with it.

Is there a stated reason why the Black Dragons are still allowed other than that their geneseed somehow passes the purity standards? Or a definitive reason how it does so?

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

I understand that the majority of Sisters come from Orphanariums.

Is this actually the official IoM term?

[Squark]

Originally Posted by Kris Strife

Is there a stated reason why the Black Dragons are still allowed other than that their geneseed somehow passes the purity standards? Or a definitive reason how it does so?

According to Lexicanum, while the Black Dragon's geneseed tithes do pass the purity tests, the inquisition suspect they're stealing it from other sources.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Kris Strife

Is this actually the official IoM term?

Schola Progenium is the name for the places where orphans of Imperials tend to be sent.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Originally Posted by Squark

According to Lexicanum, while the Black Dragon's geneseed tithes do pass the purity tests, the inquisition suspect they're stealing it from other sources.

That, or they have a separate farm of pure geneseed that they use for tithes, and a corrupted geneseed that they actually use for recruits.

The Black Dragons are my favourite chapter.

[Mattarias, King.]

Ooh, ooh! Sisters discussion! Kinda!

What do you guys think of the Living Saints being called Daemons of the big E? It doesn't seem like that far off of a description to me, though phrasing it that way is likely a bad idea.

Then again, I'm not quite sure HOW Saints are granted their power, other than "The Emprah did it!"

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Schola Progenium is the name for the places where orphans of Imperials tend to be sent.

Schola Progenium means school.
Orphanarium is a type of Schola for orphans.

[GolemsVoice]

Aren't all people in the schola orphans, though? Or is that just commissars?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

Aren't all people in the schola orphans, though? Or is that just commissars?

In an Orphanarium, yes. Not necessarily in others.

[GolemsVoice]

Ah. First time I heard of an Orphanarium as a subset of Scholas. Ok.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King.

Ooh, ooh! Sisters discussion! Kinda!

What do you guys think of the Living Saints being called Daemons of the big E? It doesn't seem like that far off of a description to me, though phrasing it that way is likely a bad idea.

Then again, I'm not quite sure HOW Saints are granted their power, other than "The Emprah did it!"

Well, faith powers are a real thing, but apparently are not the same as psychic powers. I always thought it was similar to the Ork manifestation of psychic power, since WAAGH does not seem to operate via the normal rules of warp-magics. But I'm just grasping here.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

In an Orphanarium, yes. Not necessarily in others.

Given that the usual method of qualifying for entry into a Schola is having one or both parents die in Imperial service, GolemsVoice's comment isn't too far off the truth.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah

Well, faith powers are a real thing, but apparently are not the same as psychic powers. I always thought it was similar to the Ork manifestation of psychic power, since WAAGH does not seem to operate via the normal rules of warp-magics. But I'm just grasping here.

Another theory I heard is that as demons are to the Chaos Gods, so Saints are to the Emperor.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

Another theory I heard is that as demons are to the Chaos Gods, so Saints are to the Emperor.

More like as marked/chosen are to the chaos gods, Saints are to the Emperor. Saints are born as humans, daemons are completely extradimensional matter given form by nightmares and emotional termoil.

In first ed the Sensei were explicitely said to bear 'the mark of the star child', a direct equivilant to 'the mark of khorne/slaanesh/etc", the star child being the Emperor's soul that fled his body to hide in the warp. When 2nd ed cut Sensei (probably for being the bastard son of Highlander and Star Wars) but fleshed out the Sisters of Battle it took a while for Saints to pop up in more detail in 3rd ed and the release of Inquisitor, which detailed the Thorian faction of the Inquisition that believe certain people can be empowered by the Emperor's absent spirit and through studying these people a method for reincarnating the Emperor in a new body could be discovered.

The comic story Daemonifuge also went into Sisters of Battle and oddly empowered servants of the Emperor.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

More like as marked/chosen are to the chaos gods, Saints are to the Emperor. Saints are born as humans, daemons are completely extradimensional matter given form by nightmares and emotional termoil.

In first ed the Sensei were explicitely said to bear 'the mark of the star child', a direct equivilant to 'the mark of khorne/slaanesh/etc", the star child being the Emperor's soul that fled his body to hide in the warp. When 2nd ed cut Sensei (probably for being the bastard son of Highlander and Star Wars) but fleshed out the Sisters of Battle it took a while for Saints to pop up in more detail in 3rd ed and the release of Inquisitor, which detailed the Thorian faction of the Inquisition that believe certain people can be empowered by the Emperor's absent spirit and through studying these people a method for reincarnating the Emperor in a new body could be discovered.

The comic story Daemonifuge also went into Sisters of Battle and oddly empowered servants of the Emperor.

Actually, mortals can become Daemons too. There are a lot of mortals that become Daemon Princes, for example, such as Angron.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

There are a lot of mortals that become Daemon Princes, for example, such as Angron.

Huge difference. When a mortal becomes a Daemon, they can't leave the Warp for long or often.

There is no real downside to being Chosen or a Saint.

[GolemsVoice]

Also, when mortals become deamons, this is because the Chaos gods infuse them with their power directly (or by some other external power source) wheras normal daemons just spawn by themselves.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Huge difference. When a mortal becomes a Daemon, they can't leave the Warp for long or often.

More like a lot of little differances that add up. Sometimes Daemon Princes are just implied to be chosen that got so many chaos gifts they stopped being human anymore (literally in the case of the second third ed codex) but managed not to lose their minds and become chaos spawn.

Sometimes Chaos Spawn are described as 'failed' daemon princes or that spawndom is a punishment but its also suggested that to a chaos god's inhuman mind both daemon princedom and spawndom are equally great rewards.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

There is no real downside to being Chosen or a Saint.

Except for the not always beneficial mutations in the chosens case and not being sure whether or not the next priest you meet is going to want to burn you or venerate you in the Saint's case.

[iyaerP]

So I am currently reading the horus heresy books, and despite enjoying the first four and blazing my way through them, I ground to a halt on Fulgrim. It is just so.... boring. I don't care much about the pursuit of perfection of the pretty boy marines, and I have to ask of the mechanical curdled dairy cog disk if the book gets better and picks up like the previous novels did, or if I should just skip ahead to the next book and pick up the details by inference.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Huge difference. When a mortal becomes a Daemon, they can't leave the Warp for long or often.

There is no real downside to being Chosen or a Saint.

Truedat. I never said they were the same, after all.