Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[LansXero]

Originally Posted by iyaerP

So I am currently reading the horus heresy books, and despite enjoying the first four and blazing my way through them, I ground to a halt on Fulgrim. It is just so.... boring. I don't care much about the pursuit of perfection of the pretty boy marines, and I have to ask of the mechanical curdled dairy cog disk if the book gets better and picks up like the previous novels did, or if I should just skip ahead to the next book and pick up the details by inference.

It gets a lot better eventually. Also, Tarvitz is awesome.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

More like a lot of little differances that add up. Sometimes Daemon Princes are just implied to be chosen that got so many chaos gifts they stopped being human anymore (literally in the case of the second third ed codex) but managed not to lose their minds and become chaos spawn.

Sometimes Chaos Spawn are described as 'failed' daemon princes or that spawndom is a punishment but its also suggested that to a chaos god's inhuman mind both daemon princedom and spawndom are equally great rewards.

Different sources imply that Daemonhood is a specific gift in itself.

It's possible for a powerful (human) warlord to accumulate more Powers, Gifts and Mutations than some Daemon Princes possess (compare Abaddon or Ahriman to some of the low-cost combinations available in the Codex) and yet they still don't turn into Spawn or become regarded as Daemon Princes until their Patron God specifically declares them so.

Some may see this as the fluff contradicting itself (and certainly contradicting the crunch) but I prefer the way you put it - it's ultimately down to the whims of insane evil Gods, and to my mind it would probably be a bad sign if it made sense to us.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by iyaerP

So I am currently reading the horus heresy books, and despite enjoying the first four and blazing my way through them, I ground to a halt on Fulgrim. It is just so.... boring.

That's a common reaction. Fulgrim (and Legion) are very polarising books in that you love it or you hate it. And that kind of polarising nature continues throughout the book, certainly, Fulgrim is (in)famously known for its ending, which is either a cop-out, or something amazing.

That being said, Fulgrim is not a strong book to follow Flight of the Eisenstien. FotE is a hard act to follow. FotE is often regarded as one of the best books an entire series of 19 novels (20 in a few weeks).

Originally Posted by LansXero

It gets a lot better eventually. Also, Tarvitz is awesome.

Garro is the greatest Space Marine.

[LansXero]

They should animate the whole series once the novel line is finished. The Isstvan parts would be amazing to watch.

Also: Ferrus Manus :(

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by iyaerP

So I am currently reading the horus heresy books, and despite enjoying the first four and blazing my way through them, I ground to a halt on Fulgrim. It is just so.... boring. I don't care much about the pursuit of perfection of the pretty boy marines, and I have to ask of the mechanical curdled dairy cog disk if the book gets better and picks up like the previous novels did, or if I should just skip ahead to the next book and pick up the details by inference.

Skip away, sir, skip away. Fulgrim is among the weaker books in the series (at least IMO. It's something of a love-it-or-hate-it, apparently, since some people do seem to enjoy it), and if you aren't liking it now you'll probably never like it. While it is occasionally broken up by interesting bits, the novel maintains the same pace and awfulness throughout.
If you need the important bits:

Spoiler

Fulgrim picks up a sword from a race of Chaos-worshipping aliens, which eventually causes him to become Possessed by a Greater Daemon when he kills Ferrous Manus at Istavan IV. Everyone else either dies or goes Slaaneshi, and Lucius betrays the last of the Loyalists and kills them. At some point the Eldar tried to stop Fulgrim from doing all of this, Edlrad only
knows why they try to intervene with this Primarch instead of Horus who might have mattered. That's really it, as far as what affects the overall story of the books. It's pretty skippable.

[Tiki Snakes]

Now, here's a question for you guys;
I'm joining a Deathwatch campaign, (it's already been going for some time) and the GM is playing the setting fast and loose. That's kind of his thing, but the current players don't really realise this yet.
One of the players, in the last section of the game, ended up being taken captive Via Teleporter, seperated from his armour and got stuck talking to an AI.

Now, this player isn't the sharpest tack in the tool-box, so he ended up telling the Computer more than he probably should have. He was teleported back to the rest of the group, sans all of his wargear and under questioning freely admitted that he'd ended up giving away their mission.

The Assault Marine immediately declared him a heretic and chainsworded him into chunky salsa.
If it helps, the Player who was killed was of a chapter they were not familiar with, and the assault marine is a black templar.

How closely does this mesh with the Fluff? What could such marines expect to happen in the aftermath of a mission in which that happened?

Additionally, previously in the same mission, the player (who was playing a tech marine) failed to reprogram the machine spirit of a set of defences that had been co-opted by the enemy into being unable to properly recognise friend from foe. The Assault Marine declared both the Machine Spirit/computer and the Tech Marine Heretical, but was talked out of executing the tech marine in that occaision in exchange for being allowed to troubleshoot the computer (with his chainsword).

How closely does this incident mesh with the fluff, and does it have any noteworthy bearing on the former case?

I've tried to look into the issue online, via various wiki's and resources but not really come up with anything dealing with the topic, so I figured you guys might have an interesting and well informed take on the subject.

Any thoughts?

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Different sources imply that Daemonhood is a specific gift in itself.

It's possible for a powerful (human) warlord to accumulate more Powers, Gifts and Mutations than some Daemon Princes possess (compare Abaddon or Ahriman to some of the low-cost combinations available in the Codex) and yet they still don't turn into Spawn or become regarded as Daemon Princes until their Patron God specifically declares them so.

Some may see this as the fluff contradicting itself (and certainly contradicting the crunch) but I prefer the way you put it - it's ultimately down to the whims of insane evil Gods, and to my mind it would probably be a bad sign if it made sense to us.

Daemons are more limited than mortals, in some senses. Black Crusade, the RPG, covers this. There are various potential outcomes, the best being you leading a Black Crusade, like Abaddon. Becoming a Daemon Prince isn't quite as good, and becoming a Spawn is a failure.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

One of the players, in the last section of the game, ended up being taken captive Via Teleporter

Plausible, though extremely risky - the most sophisticated and well maintained teleporters in the Imperium are owned by the Space Marines, and even they sometimes integrate their own guys into the scenery.

seperated from his armour and got stuck talking to an AI.

Vaguely plausible - teleporter technology has never been stated as being so specific - but very, very unlikely. Least of all, because there's a very blurred edge as to where the Marine ends and the suit begins, thanks to the Black Carapace.

Now, this player isn't the sharpest tack in the tool-box, so he ended up telling the Computer more than he probably should have.

Extremely out of character. A Marine's default reaction to having all his gear removed and interrogated, is to smash everything with his bare hands - and as a Space Marine, he'd still succeed. Conversing with his captors - let alone giving away his mission statement - would only occur via something like a Psyker mind-controlling him into a blubbering lobotomised mass.

He was teleported back to the rest of the group, sans all of his wargear and under questioning freely admitted that he'd ended up giving away their mission.

As a brotherhood of Space Marines oathsworn to the Deathwatch, he would not be inclined to keep secrets. Although this isn't something that he would be flippant over....

The Assault Marine immediately declared him a heretic and chainsworded him into chunky salsa.
If it helps, the Player who was killed was of a chapter they were not familiar with, and the assault marine is a black templar.

The Assault Marine is totally justified.
The GM might have been generous and let the 'naive' Player in on what he had done wrong before finalising it and given him a chance to retcon himself, but that would have been a courtesy; IC, a quick death is the best he could have hoped for.
Doubly so for the Black Templar - he is completely in character. If he wanted to be nice as a Player he could have offered an OOC discussion with his other player to confirm what he was about to do, but if the Black Templar hadn't kicked off at what he'd just been told, something would have been horribly wrong.

How closely does this mesh with the Fluff? What could such marines expect to happen in the aftermath of a mission in which that happened?

Officially, the Black Templar would have been vindicated, although his Squad Mates may or may not remain his 'friends' depending on their own Chapters' view of AI technology (Iron Hands) or 'unknown' Chapters (Space Wolves reaction vs. Ultramarines).

Additionally, previously in the same mission, the player (who was playing a tech marine) failed to reprogram the machine spirit of a set of defences that had been co-opted by the enemy into being unable to properly recognise friend from foe. The Assault Marine declared both the Machine Spirit/computer and the Tech Marine Heretical

By failed, you mean he made a dice-roll and didn't succeed? Or just didn;t think to do it? The first is unfair; an Assault Marine does not know what talking to AI's should entail, so he has no point of reference as to what the Tech Marine did or did not do. The second is more just mean; again, the Assault Marine doesn't know what it takes to sort out an AI, though he does have a right to be peeved if he gets shot to bits by an automated turret and is later told "Oh yeah, by bad - should totally have done something about that, I guess."

Declaring the guy heretical for it, however, is extreme - again, the Assault Marine should not know what it takes to interface with AI's and other technology, as the Tech Marine is as much a religious appointment as it is a military one.
He might as well be arguing religion with his Chaplain - he does not have the right to do it, and he'd be utterly shouted down not only by the Tech Marine but the rest of his squad if he tried it. An accusation like that would require some seriously pursuasive evidence to even be considered; doing it lightly and on the fly like that is a good way to get himself executed for offending the Omnissiah

but was talked out of executing the tech marine in that occaision in exchange for being allowed to troubleshoot the computer (with his chainsword).

Conversely - Smashing the computer definitely is Heresy in the eyes of the Tech Marine. Technically it's also sacrilege and iconoclasm; the computer is, as far as he is concerned, the manifest will and avatar of the Omnissiah who, for all intents and purposes (as far as the non-Tech Marines know) is also that of the Emperor.

How closely does this incident mesh with the fluff, and does it have any noteworthy bearing on the former case?

The Black Templar guy seems to be in character, if on the impetuous side. On principle his character is doing what it should be doing, though he (the Player) should not be encouraged to stab up his team-mates so readily; especially the same guy twice, as that just sounds mean and could upset the Role Play regardless of what system they're running.

[Brother Oni]

With regard to the armour separation, it's easier than you think. If the power pack for the armour is disabled, the marine is essentially wearing dead weight, so would have to strip it off section by section (slowly and with a great deal of effort) so he can just move around.

I believe this happened to Lexandro D'Arquebus in Chaos Child, so there's some canon basis for it.

[Wraith]

Hmm, possibly depends on the generation of armour they're wearing?

There's a picture on Codex..... I think it's Space Marines? That shows someone being welded into their suit of armour by a dozen acolytes and servitors. Getting out of the thing unassisted would presumably be just short of impossible, especially without damaging the armour itself.

Still, that's taking off the armour. Being 'beamed' out of it, when it is still powered and plugged into his central nervous system via a Matrix-style plug into his spine.... There's not enough written about the nature of Imperial Teleporters to suggest that this is impossible, but given that they can't always get a guy AND his suit onto the floor without exploding I would err towards the unlikely.

[Squark]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Now, this player isn't the sharpest tack in the tool-box, so he ended up telling the Computer more than he probably should have. He was teleported back to the rest of the group, sans all of his wargear and under questioning freely admitted that he'd ended up giving away their mission.

The Assault Marine immediately declared him a heretic and chainsworded him into chunky salsa.
If it helps, the Player who was killed was of a chapter they were not familiar with, and the assault marine is a black templar.

Totally in character for the Black Templar. The best that guy could hope for after a screw up like that is getting sent on a suicide mission like attacking a Dark Eldar fortress all by his lonesome, and that's assuming he survived long enough to get to sentencing. However, given the Imperiums views on true AI, the appropriate reaction to finding one is, correct me if I'm wrong, chainsaw maintenance. I suspect part of the problem is the Tech Marine's player needs a better primer on the setting, and the GM should probably remind him of little details that would fall through the cracks like True AIs being forbidden. For that matter, Negotiation is not a Space Marine's first plan. Or their second. Usually, it isn't even their third.

Additionally, previously in the same mission, the player (who was playing a tech marine) failed to reprogram the machine spirit of a set of defences that had been co-opted by the enemy into being unable to properly recognise friend from foe. The Assault Marine declared both the Machine Spirit/computer and the Tech Marine Heretical, but was talked out of executing the tech marine in that occaision in exchange for being allowed to troubleshoot the computer (with his chainsword).

As has been said, Assault marines have no more place criticizing tech marines for their work than they do arguing with a Chaplain on matters of faith, which is something a Black Templar should have drilled in to them during their days as a neophyte. You may want to give the Tech Marine player a crash course in 40k lore if he needs it, and if he's new to the system, there's no shame in lending him a hand with learning his role.

Ultimately, it sounds like the Black Templar player might want to tone down his combativeness a little; If the entire group is okay with it, intraparty conflict can be fun, but... This article is pretty good on the subject. Basically, an RPG is a game first; The important thing is that everyone have fun.

The teleporter thing... It's in the realm of possibility, but the odds make 1 in a million seem like a sure thing. How much of a 40k lore buff is the GM?

[Tiki Snakes]

The GM knows his way around the fluff, but he's also pathalogically incapable of playing it straight if he's the one running the setting. His personal version of it is a deliberate subversion in many senses (though none of the bits the players or player characters would have known about or interacted with at any point in or out of game would be significantly different from the standard fluff.

Specifically, one of his central ideas is that the golden-age of man and it's technology, right at the high-point is basically inspired by the whole "The Culture" thing and the ship/ai that was doing the teleport-shenanigans would basically have been Culture level tech.

(It gets incredibly fruity at times).

Specifically the issue of Marine on Marine conflict, ignoring the wierder elements of the GM's own mad campaign was what I was wondering about as the question doesn't really seem to come up very often (fluffwise for obvious reasons, I suppose).

Interesting to note that in such situations that parts of those events weren't actually too far out. I had half expected the idea of killing another Marine would be more of a major taboo than that, all things considered.

The Tech Marine player is a decent enough chap, but largely beyond help. He was only supposed to be playing the tech marine (previously an npc) temporarily because his own character had recently managed to get both his own legs blown off. And yes, he failed to reprogram the machine spirit in the sense of having been directly instructed to and rolled badly (possibly was a difficult or near-impossible task, even).

[Acanous]

as has been said before, first case, the templar was justified, second he was not.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Hmm, possibly depends on the generation of armour they're wearing?

There's a picture on Codex..... I think it's Space Marines? That shows someone being welded into their suit of armour by a dozen acolytes and servitors. Getting out of the thing unassisted would presumably be just short of impossible, especially without damaging the armour itself.

With Lex, he had help from others and they essentially had to carve it up to get him out. Since their numbers included a Squat (Tech priest in the re-write), so with enough time, I'm sure they could get him out of it.

I agree that getting out of the armour without compromising its sealed environment capabilities would require specialist help, but it must be possible for SMs to get out of their armour since in most novel depictions, they don't wander around in their armour at all times, not to mention it makes the regular checkups by the Apothecaries damn near impossible.

I'm not sure what generation of armour Lex had, but considering the age of the novel, I'm guessing Mk.7 since that's what he trained in as a neophyte and I've never seen a SM Captain in Mk.6 in the novel's time frame.

That said, all types of power armour seems to have an integrated backpack of some sort, which suggests that this is the power source for the armour. I'm sure that a correctly placed attack would disable it, regardless of version.

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Specifically, one of his central ideas is that the golden-age of man and it's technology, right at the high-point is basically inspired by the whole "The Culture" thing and the ship/ai that was doing the teleport-shenanigans would basically have been Culture level tech.

So the game is essentially set during the Dark Age of Technology?

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Interesting to note that in such situations that parts of those events weren't actually too far out. I had half expected the idea of killing another Marine would be more of a major taboo than that, all things considered.

Space marines are the elite of the Imperium, with less than 15 minutes every day during their daily routine for personal time (and some Chapters even cut this out as a frivolous waste of time).

This leads to incompetence being unacceptable, especially in a case like this where the Techmarine potentially gave up all operational and intelligence security.
Since the usual way this happens is being chaos tainted and/or turning traitor (as a Marine being completely inept is unlikely at best), any Marine would be excused for killing him, but a Black Templar? I'm surprised he waited that long.

[Kris Strife]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

I agree that getting out of the armour without compromising its sealed environment capabilities would require specialist help, but it must be possible for SMs to get out of their armour since in most novel depictions, they don't wander around in their armour at all times, not to mention it makes the regular checkups by the Apothecaries damn near impossible.

*snip*

Space marines are the elite of the Imperium, with less than 15 minutes every day during their daily routine for personal time (and some Chapters even cut this out as a frivolous waste of time).

On a related note to the first one, what do they wear when not in their armor? Is there a generalized garb or does it vary from Chapter to Chapter, or even within certain Chapters?

And on the second one, is that the universal amount, or is that the Codex Astartes ordered schedule?

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Interesting to note that in such situations that parts of those events weren't actually too far out. I had half expected the idea of killing another Marine would be more of a major taboo than that, all things considered.

As with most of the things in 40k, it all depends on who the victim is.
Killing a member of his own Chapter without irrefutable proof of corruption would be unthinkable, and is worthy of dishonourable execution as punishment. Killing a member of a different Chapter without a good reason is frowned upon, and might cause more bloodshed in the long run if you're being silly about it, but it's far from forbidden.

And yes, he failed to reprogram the machine spirit in the sense of having been directly instructed to and rolled badly (possibly was a difficult or near-impossible task, even).

Being stabbed In Character for failing an Out Of Character dice roll, as Acanous said, is not cool.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Kris Strife

On a related note to the first one, what do they wear when not in their armor? Is there a generalized garb or does it vary from Chapter to Chapter, or even within certain Chapters?

I think I've seen robes mentioned in the novels.

Originally Posted by Kris Strife

And on the second one, is that the universal amount, or is that the Codex Astartes ordered schedule?

It was in the 3e army book I think- not sure if it's standard for most chapters though.

[Kris Strife]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

I think I've seen robes mentioned in the novels.



It was in the 3e army book I think- not sure if it's standard for most chapters though.

Are robes standard for every chapter, or would Marines whose Fortress Monasteries are on ice worlds dress more warmly than those who come from temperate worlds while those who come from volcanic or hot deserts would dress for higher temperatures when not in their armors?

Also, is that fifteen minutes of alone time or just fifteen minutes when not training/contemplating their duty/servicing their weapons?

[GolemsVoice]

Are robes standard for every chapter, or would Marines whose Fortress Monasteries are on ice worlds dress more warmly than those who come from temperate worlds while those who come from volcanic or hot deserts would dress for higher temperatures when not in their armors?

I'd say they would likely be influenced by the chapter's theme (like graeco-roman robes for Ultramarines, or more monk-like garb for Dark Angels) and maybe the local culture, like Space Wolves wearing pelts, but I think marines can exist in most natural environments without caring for the cold or the heat, so they could make a show/test of endurance of wearing a simple robe in the freezing cold.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Kris Strife

Are robes standard for every chapter, or would Marines whose Fortress Monasteries are on ice worlds dress more warmly than those who come from temperate worlds while those who come from volcanic or hot deserts would dress for higher temperatures when not in their armors?

There are a couple of Graphic Novels that show the Blood Angels wearing robes that look not unlike that of a Catholic Bishop or Monk. Codex: Space Wolves says that the 'recruiters' that they send out to meet the feral natives of Fenris pass as large, tough, but otherwise 'normal' strangers, which suggests that they are wearing typical 'Eskimo'-style clothing needed for that climate, rather than their Power Armour.

So, yeah. It varies by where they live, but when appropriate Space Marines seem to wear ordinary, if conservative, clothing

Also, is that fifteen minutes of alone time or just fifteen minutes when not training/contemplating their duty/servicing their weapons?

Of the examples I can remember, the former. There is time specifically allocated to Prayer and weapon maintenance, and though it isn't stated as being necessarily communal the descriptions of how Chaplains perform their duties suggests that they are at least supervised.

[hamishspence]

I suspect Blood Angels get a certain amount of time on artistic pursuits, and Wolves a certain amount of time on carousing- not necessarily an exact amount though.

[Squark]

I remember reading on TvTropes that Salamanders wear only a loin cloth while on Vulkan. The Ultramarines books make references to the Uriel and Pasinius wearing robes while they're traveling aboard a ship, as well.

Also, Space Wolves don't follow the codex, so they don't have to follow the same rules about free time.

[hamishspence]

Even Codex Chapters might adjust or modify the Daily rituals routine- changing things around to keep them from getting overly settled in it:

Daily Rituals

[Kris Strife]

Alright, thanks. Just some little things I was wondering about.

[Platinius]

30 min for maintenance? That's just about enough time to clean a single gun for functionality, let alone for the white cotton swab test (a test which the techmarine would definitely put to shame with his precision tools). If the marines clean their own basic equipment alone by hand with varies brushes, rags, water and oils they would at least need 2 hours.
However, given that it is training at their home base, I am ready to believe that they have varies tools and machines for the specific parts (imagine a dishwasher for gun parts or a shower room not unlike a car washer to get the breastplate nice and shiny again, etc) that cut down time.

Though what really makes me smirk are the 15 min downtime, I'll put it like this, what would you do in that quarter of an hour? The only family and/or friends that you have left are with your right there, you can talk with them during training, meals and maintenance. It's not remotely enough for a good game of poker or any other game in general or more productive things like studying a craft or painting an icon to express your faith and so on and so forth.
Taking that time away would make no difference, giving more however would (and not in a bad way, see Salamanders).
At this point I like to imagine that veterans (generally speaking) get more free time as they have generally mastered all standard ways of space marine warfare AND have proven both their skill and dedication and should be allowed to get more creative with their time and get that considerable amount of experience to work. All within reasonable amounts of course, you don't want them to develop any heretical thoughts.

(hmmm, this post became longer than I thought at first)

[GolemsVoice]

30 min for maintenance? That's just about enough time to clean a single gun for functionality, let alone for the white cotton swab test (a test which the techmarine would definitely put to shame with his precision tools). If the marines clean their own basic equipment alone by hand with varies brushes, rags, water and oils they would at least need 2 hours.
However, given that it is training at their home base, I am ready to believe that they have varies tools and machines for the specific parts (imagine a dishwasher for gun parts or a shower room not unlike a car washer to get the breastplate nice and shiny again, etc) that cut down time.

I think that may be just a "ritual" that helps the SM forge a connection with their wargear and makes them humble before their weapons. The ACTUAL cleaning, oiling and repairing is probably done by techmarines and chapter serfs.

[Brother Oni]

I agree that the Daily Rituals is probably a standardised routine for a new recruit during training to help with the indoctrination of becoming a marine, and more senior marines and officers have different duties or more free time.

For example, strategic analysis of the current status of the Imperium, along with intelligence and political briefings and simply getting along with the locals would be something that occupy most of the officers' time.

That said, I would expect them to all put in a certain number of hours training or be able to consistently meet certain standards.

While a marine would be able to know his weapons inside out, I don't think the senior marines do their own cleaning - either chapter serfs, artificers or servitors do all the routine stuff, with the Marine doing just enough to keep their skills up to scratch.

[Hazzardevil]

I have a rather complex question about the imperium.
Supposing the Emperor just died, how much would life change for most of the imperium?
I can imagine warp travel becoming impossible, but that would just leave Space Marines going out on their crusades to destroy Xenos. I imagine that the Imperial Guard would just disband and join the PDF of wherever they were at the time, and the inquisitorial sectors would simply take up civilian life. Other peoples thoughts?

[GolemsVoice]

The Imperium would fall into anarchy pretty soon, because it relies on interstellar transports for many things, ranging from the least problem (actually ATTACKING folks) to more important ones, like supplies of industrial goods, weapons and other stuff and of course, the impossibility to send aid to struggling systems. Also, stuff like a galaxy-wide government just wouldn't work anymore, but since warp-travel might be possible for short distances, like they did before the Emperor, I'd say systems would stabilize somewhere at the subsector level, each region jealously guarding what ressources it has. But divided, the enemies of the Imperium (everybody else) would likely pick the isolated worlds off one by one.

So all in all: they're screwed.

[Brother Oni]

Agreed. You have the industrial and hive worlds starving to death because they're almost fully supplied by the agri-worlds, who also regress back technologically as they don't have anybody supplying them with replacement tech or spare parts.