Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Issabella

1- Konrad Cruze the Primarch says something disturbing to Fulgrim, who runs off and tells Dorn? Dorn calls out Konrad for his behavior and gets Mauled? (this was word of mouth, was trying to find a source, did Cruze physically assault Dorn?)

Dorn and Fulgrim call out Curze for War Crimes. Curze is imprisoned on the Phalanx. He subsequently Batmans his way out ('Batman' is a verb now). Curze attempts to kill Dorn. Dorn doesn't fight back. He is only saved by Sigismund. The Dark King.

It is unclear how far Fulgrim is along in his particular journey at this point.

Curze is the only thing in the galaxy that Dorn is afraid of. Because there is no reason to his actions. Dorn starts to wonder what it would take for him to turn against Dad, and he begins to accept that his brothers might not be his brothers anymore. Becoming resolute they they aren't his brothers anymore in Deliverance Lost.

3- During the Drop site massacre he fights Corax forcing him to flee?

Saving Lorgar.

Otherwise, I have nothing to add.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

Also, to add a bit on, what is it in Chainswords that makes the blade spin? Since I don't think it says anywhere.

I believe it depends on the version of chainsword. Some are essentially weaponised chainsaws, with the teeth rotating round the blade constantly, while others just oscillate the teeth back and forth to achieve the same cutting effect.

As for the actual thing that makes them move, probably a motor, with possibly a fan belt for the first version.

[Cheesegear]

Didn't see this post.

Is there anywhere I can find out about this star child theory? I keep finding mentions of it but no actual explanation.

Would it be killing the emperor if the star child theory is true, turning off the machine? I doubt the theorists believe it is.

This is currently the only thing you're likely to find on the subject, and the following link to the Sensei Knights. The subject hasn't been seen in 15 years and is considered no longer canon because all books it appears in are no longer printed.

Where can I find super-marines? Are they somewhere between Primarchs and Terminators?

...Super Marines is just a term I used because I couldn't think of another term that would suit. They're in the later parts of Deliverance Lost. Corax gains the original genetic code the Emperor had in the ruins of the Primarch Labs. They grow to full size in a matter of weeks, 'geneseed compatibility' is not an issue allowing any and every child to become a Marine with no risks (albeit a Raven Guard as Corax inserts his DNA). They then proceed to put all other Marines to shame with their prowess.

...Then bad stuff happens.

Also, Terminators are just regular Marines with better armour.

So, all sorcerers are psykers, all psykers are psychics? But not all psychics are psykers or sorcerers?

The Grey Knights Codex is retarded and equates the two.

The RPGs (Dark Heresy and similar) make a distinction similar to Spontaneous and Memorising Casters from D&D. Sorcery must be learned, from books and knowledge from tutors and Pacts with Daemons. Often from forbidden texts. As 'Joe Imperial' should not be allowed to learn sorcery, as he doesn't have the knowledge to use it properly and shouldn't deal with daemons..

Psykery is something you're born with, and mastery of the warp is done through willpower alone. If you're good at Psykery, picking up Sorcery is easier than if you weren't a psyker.

I though they were different because in 40K, nurture trumps nature?

It appears that it's a bit of both.

Also, to add a bit on, what is it in Chainswords that makes the blade spin? Since I don't think it says anywhere.

The motor? You can clearly see it on models.

[Hazzardevil]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Didn't see this post.

...Super Marines is just a term I used because I couldn't think of another term that would suit. They're in the later parts of Deliverance Lost. Corax gains the original genetic code the Emperor had in the ruins of the Primarch Labs. They grow to full size in a matter of weeks, 'geneseed compatibility' is not an issue allowing any and every child to become a Marine with no risks (albeit a Raven Guard as Corax inserts his DNA). They then proceed to put all other Marines to shame with their prowess.

Psykery is something you're born with, and mastery of the warp is done through willpower alone. If you're good at Psykery, picking up Sorcery is easier than if you weren't a psyker.

What was wrong with them all being part of the ravenguard? Does it make them more susceptable to chaos?

Is psykery and being a psychic the same thing?

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

The Grey Knights Codex is retarded...

Damn right.

Spoiler

Also, Re: Starchild... some of the stuff is considered canon, but it may or may not be considered true. They are theories that Inquisitors and similar have. I believe the Thorian Sourcebook is still available on the GW website, for instance. It never states that it's either right or wrong, which is how I like things. It also makes it somewhat confusing about whether or not Thorians are Puritans or Radicals.

[Zorg]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

The subject hasn't been seen in 15 years and is considered no longer canon because all books it appears in are no longer printed.

*coughfemalemarinescough* ;)
Though Sensei Knights and all that is mentioned in the Inquisition War trilogy, which I think is still available (though I've no idea what the 'editing' has done to it).


So nobody can look at the timeline in the BRB? Anyone? Beuller?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Zorg

So nobody can look at the timeline in the BRB? Anyone? Beuller?

What am I looking for? I've lost track of the thread.

[Kris Strife]

What are the limits on time displacement due to Warp travel?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Kris Strife

What are the limits on time displacement due to Warp travel?

There aren't any. You can arrive before you left. You can arrive years from now. Time displacement is a matter of plot.

[Voidhawk]

Originally Posted by Kris Strife

What are the limits on time displacement due to Warp travel?

The warp is inherently chaotic and unpredicatable, it can theoretically acheive anything at all, so there is no absolute limit at all to how far back it could send you.
Theoretically.

In practice though it'd take a ridiculous quantity (even by 40k standards) of energy to power, and would be about as accurate as warp travel without a navigator. And that's presuming the Chaos Gods (read: Tzeentch) would tollerate you to going back in the first place.

Pretty much the only thing Warp Strom powered time travel is good for is amusing antics, driving Farseers insane, and getting the heroes there on time no matter how long they spend faffing about on route.

It also helps excuse the rubbish GW passes off as a timeline of events. Seriously, could someone please explain to me in detail when the Eldar Empire was around please? It always seems to clash with the Pre-Emps Human galactic civilisation. Everytime I try and work it out, Slaanesh ends up being born at the same time the Iron-Men are rebelling for some reason...

Anyway, back to time travel. The only time I can remember that someone went back and achieved anything they wanted to out of it, was an Ork Warboss (one of my favoirite stories). His Waaaargh! fell through (read: piloted into screaming joyously) a Warp Storm, and found itself several years in the past. Realising what had happened (I think they ended up at a war they'd already fought), the Boss invaded his own planet, had his Waaargh! attack itself, and dueled himself to the death... so he could have two copies of his favoirite gun.

Oh yeah, and for some reason Matt Ward thought letting Necron SCIENCE! have access to reliable time travel was cool though. Of course it was only one dude who got it, and he is their End-Game-Win-Condition, Orikan the Diviner.

[Squark]

Originally Posted by Voidhawk

Oh yeah, and for some reason Matt Ward thought letting Necron SCIENCE! have access to reliable time travel was cool though. Of course it was only one dude who got it, and he is their End-Game-Win-Condition, Orikan the Diviner.

To expand on this, the main issues with Orikan's time travel are twofold; One, the unintended consequences of his meddling are often disastrous (In order to ensure one of his prophecies was fulfilled, he went back in time and had a Silver Skulls taskforce ambushed to ensure they wouldn't show up at the battle he predicted his current overlord would win. It worked... But the retaliatory strike from the angry Silver Skulls left the tomb world in ruins), and he's embroiled in some sort of shenanigans that he needs kept secret*... And the revelation that he has access to even a semi-reliable time travel method would draw way too much attention.


*It's deliberately ambiguous right now what Orikan is up to, but his empowered stat line is suspiciously identical to that of a C'tan shard.

In other news, the second Ultramarines Omnibus was released recently *checks* Err... It's still only available for Advance Order on the GW website. Does this mean someone screwed up and put it out for purchase early at the store I got it from?

Anyway, Killing Ground was a fun read.

[Zorg]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

What am I looking for? I've lost track of the thread.

If the timeline has any info on the Emp's birth.

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

I believe the latest one was he was formed in the 3rd millenium out of the combination of all of some kind of special psychics souls merged together through mass cyanide tablets. If this is true, the emperor can't be ST. George

3rd Millenium BC.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

What was wrong with them all being part of the ravenguard? Does it make them more susceptable to chaos?

Not that they're Raven Guard; more to do with it being Corax - a Primarch - attempting to take the Emperor's work and alter it for his own ends. It's nothing to do with genetics, just the simple fact that Corax (or, arguably, anyone else since) was not as good a geneticist as the Emperor.

Is psykery and being a psychic the same thing?

If you mean "psychic" in the sense of being able to read minds or see into the future, then the answer is "kind of".

Being able to read minds or predict the future, means that you must be a psyker (or, in far, far more rare circumstances, receiving a vision directly from the Emperor). Not all Psykers are able to read minds or predict the future, however.

Originally Posted by Voidhawk

Seriously, could someone please explain to me in detail when the Eldar Empire was around please? It always seems to clash with the Pre-Emps Human galactic civilisation. Everytime I try and work it out, Slaanesh ends up being born at the same time the Iron-Men are rebelling for some reason...

Slaanesh was 'born' when the Eye of Terror opened. This is about Ten-Thousand years ago, so approximately somewhere around the 29th to 31st millenium, just prior to the Great Crusade.

Presumably, the turmoil in the Warp that closed off the proto-Imperium from it's frontiers was caused by Slaanesh being 'formed', and afterwards - with the generated power spent and the danger concentrated into one small area - the Warp calmed and the Emperor was able to make his move.

[bluntpencil]

The pre-Fall Eldar Empire was largely where the Eye of Terror is now... which is a different part of space to pre-Unification Mankind's galactic civilisation.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Presumably, the turmoil in the Warp that closed off the proto-Imperium from it's frontiers was caused by Slaanesh being 'formed', and afterwards - with the generated power spent and the danger concentrated into one small area - the Warp calmed and the Emperor was able to make his move.

I think the original explanation was that the warp storms were caused by the Eldar (either due to them surpressing their emotions in the original version or by their excesses in the current version). Wiping out most of the Eldar is what carmed it down.

Sometimes Slaanesh is blamed but the sort of Jungian combined psychic unconciousness of the pre-fall Eldar and the embyronic form of Slaanesh are pretty much the same thing.

Even now Slaanesh still isn't fully detatched from the Eldar, hence the soulstones and the Dark Eldar having to top themselves up as their souls naturally get pulled into Slaanesh.

Originally Posted by Voidhawk

It also helps excuse the rubbish GW passes off as a timeline of events. Seriously, could someone please explain to me in detail when the Eldar Empire was around please? It always seems to clash with the Pre-Emps Human galactic civilisation. Everytime I try and work it out, Slaanesh ends up being born at the same time the Iron-Men are rebelling for some reason...

The height of the Eldar and the Dark Age of Technology were more or less concurrent. The Iron Men thing happened way before the birth of Slaanesh. Since as I say above, the fall into decadence of the Eldar caused the warp storms that cut off terra, so the Human and Eldar golden ages end at pretty much the same time, though its a bit less dramatic in the Eldar case as its more of a cultural decline than everything suddenly going bad.

15th millenium
Dark Age of Technology starts, humans colonise the galaxy and have the iron men as their army

25th millenium
Warp storms start to rise, ending the Dark Age of Technology and causing the Age of Strife. The Iron men have already been discontinued by this point.

30th millenium
Fall of Eldar, birth of Slaanesh, Eye of Terror forms. Great Crusade begins.

41st millenium
Current timeframe.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Zorg

If the timeline has any info on the Emp's birth.

What page? The timeline I have only goes back to M18 and the Dark Age of Technology.

Originally Posted by Wraith

Not that they're Raven Guard; more to do with it being Corax - a Primarch - attempting to take the Emperor's work and alter it for his own ends. It's nothing to do with genetics, just the simple fact that Corax (or, arguably, anyone else since) was not as good a geneticist as the Emperor.

No. Corax did absolutely everything perfectly. If you have any questions, read the blurb for Deliverance Lost, there's a massive spoiler right there on the back of the book which I complained about when the book was released...Which I was right to complain about, because what I predicted because of what the back of the book happened, happened.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

What page? The timeline I have only goes back to M18 and the Dark Age of Technology.

WAY back in 3rd/4th edition, at the back of the book there was a large box of text that thanked various people on behalf of the authors, along with a few design notes that readers might've found interesting.

On the page under that box - which was literally overlapping the text, not just placed in a seperate paragraph at the top of the page - there is an In Universe document written by an Imperial Scribe whose family has spent umpteen generations researching the life and origins of the Emperor.

The document is mostly obscured by the Designer's Notes box and a large red stamp from the Inquisition, declaring it to be Heresy of the highest order and all people involved were burned for their works, however if you look hard enough you can still make out a few details that have never before - or since - been stated as canon.

The Emperor is, apparently, Turkish. For example.

No. Corax did absolutely everything perfectly. If you have any questions, read the blurb for Deliverance Lost, there's a massive spoiler right there on the back of the book which I complained about when the book was released...Which I was right to complain about, because what I predicted because of what the back of the book happened, happened.

.....Holy crap, that *IS* a massive spoiler. I haven't read the book, but with just those two words Spoiler (Because I'm not a jerk, unlike the Black Library staff who thought that'd be a good idea...) Alpha Legion I'm pretty sure I can make an educated guess.

Having said that, it does explain perfectly why Corax murdered everyone, rather than employ them as expendable Shock troops, Death Company-style....

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Wraith

I'm pretty sure I can make an educated guess.

Super-duper Deliverance Lost spoilers...That you probably guessed just by reading the back of the book.

Spoiler

Due to the edict of Nikea (psykers no psyking!), Alpha Legion are able to infiltrate multiple Legions. Due to entire Chapters of Legions being separated during the Istvaan massacre, Alpha Legion basically insert themselves into the Raven Guard Legion. It's unclear how they actually do this...But it's handwaved along that Alpha Legion still use psychic powers to implant dead or dying Raven Guard personalities, memories and facial features onto Alpha Legionaries.
We're finally given a very brief example of what happens when a Marine eats something to gain its memories.

Alpha Legion 'Raven Guard' are taken by Corax to Terra. And we're not told until very late in the book who the Infiltrators are (I'll leave that part spoiler-free). Since it's all told from their point of view, and they all refer to themselves as Alpharius...Which does get really confusing, but, on some level, I can see how that may be the point...

Where they find out what Corax has been given, they simultaneously set out to wreck it and take it. Obviously if the formula was in the hands of someone...Say...That Emperor's Children fellow, Apothecary Fabius...The heretic side of the war could do great things...

Wait...None of that is in Lexicanum. Gav Thorpe is obscure. Nevermind. None of it happened. Right? Right?

EDIT: I think the interesting part about a lot of the Loyalist side books, is how pretty much all of them, at some point, make an issue of bringing back psykers, regardless of what the Emperor says.

[GolemsVoice]

The Emperor is, apparently, Turkish. For example.

Wasn't it pretty much confirmed that the Emperor was the product of a lot of powerful shamans uniting their souls somewhere in Anatolia?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Wraith

The Emperor is, apparently, Turkish. For example.

Only if he was born after 1100 AD. Wasn't any large population of Turks in anatolia until after the mongols and their opponents brought them in as mercenaries.

One of the ancient peoples of Anatolia were the hittites who left
this symbol around asia minor.

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

Wasn't it pretty much confirmed that the Emperor was the product of a lot of powerful shamans uniting their souls somewhere in Anatolia?

In Realm of Chaos, which is full of a lot of stuff that is no longer cannon like 'daemons cannot leave the warp without a material body to possess'.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

Wasn't it pretty much confirmed that the Emperor was the product of a lot of powerful shamans uniting their souls somewhere in Anatolia?

Literally, you are correct. Anatolia is the archaic name for what we now call Asia Minor, which corresponds to the area between the Black, Mediterranean and Aegean Seas.
Which, strictly speaking, just means "Eastern Turkey". I was paraphrasing.

As to whether or not it was 'confirmered'..... Go figure.
The only document I know that states it outright, is 2 editions old, was IC declared Hereticus Extremis by the Inquisition, and is part of a greater text that says that only the Emperor knows the literal truth because He spent the first thirty thousand years of his life living in secrecy and what the contemporary 41st millenium knows is just rumour and folklore.

Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Only if he was born after 1100 AD. Wasn't any large population of Turks in anatolia until after the mongols and their opponents brought them in as mercenaries.

Good catch.
In which case, the answer is no - He was apparently born sometime in the 8th millenium B.C. and as such is pre-Hittite by a LONG shot; barely more than a prehistoric tribesman.

Turkish by region, if not ethnicity.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Super-duper Deliverance Lost spoilers

Hmm, okay.... Here's a bit of an odd question, but it's one that I've always wanted to know more about:

Spoiler

During this period, do you perceive that the Alpha Legion are depicted as 'evil' in what they do?
A lot of the history I've read - haven't yet got around to the Horus Heresy novels - depicts the Alpha Legion as teacherous back-stabbers, but some others more than imply that the Legion isn't just doing it for fun and are committing terrible acts in the name of a bigger goal.

What do you think? Are they genuine Traitors, or are they on their own side and just got lumped in with the loonies because they wouldn't openly support the Loyalists?

EDIT: I think the interesting part about a lot of the Loyalist side books, is how pretty much all of them, at some point, make an issue of bringing back psykers, regardless of what the Emperor says.

It's all part of the plan:

• Emperor forbids Psykery at Nikea.
• The Alpha Legion decide that this is a stupid idea, and starts up a scheme of guerilla warfare that provides a long list of reasons as to why Psykers are necessary.
• The Loyalists look at all these reasons, and slowly justify to themselves a way to get around (or just ignore) the edict.
• The Alpha Legion enacts.... something, that requires a lot of Psykers "for the good of the Imperium/For the lulz of Chaos".
• The Black Templars go apesh*t and kill everyone, ever.

....I have to say, the Black Templars are probably my favourite Chapter for all sorts of reasons, not just that one.

[Kesnit]

Here's a question that has been rattling around in my head since I first heard about this. (I have not read Deliverance Lost, so maybe it is addressed there...)

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Spoiler

Due to the edict of Nikea (psykers no psyking!), Alpha Legion are able to infiltrate multiple Legions. Due to entire Chapters of Legions being separated during the Istvaan massacre, Alpha Legion basically insert themselves into the Raven Guard Legion. It's unclear how they actually do this...But it's handwaved along that Alpha Legion still use psychic powers to implant dead or dying Raven Guard personalities, memories and facial features onto Alpha Legionaries.
We're finally given a very brief example of what happens when a Marine eats something to gain its memories.

Spoiler

If AL is infiltrating other Legions, wouldn't their armor give them away? They would either have to find dead Loyalists of approximately the same size as the infiltrators, or paint their own armor. Both of those would take time, and why would AL even have paint to match other legions anyway?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Hmm, okay.... Here's a bit of an odd question, but it's one that I've always wanted to know more about:

During this period, do you perceive that the Alpha Legion are depicted as 'evil' in what they do?

See; Legion. IMO, I'm not sure if Alpharius is being duped. But he's doing a lot of wrong things for the right reasons. In Deliverance Lost he recognises Erebus for what he is, and refuses to let Erebus speak to Horus for that particular scene.

• The Loyalists look at all these reasons, and slowly justify to themselves a way to get around (or just ignore) the edict.
• The Alpha Legion enacts.... something, that requires a lot of Psykers "for the good of the Imperium/For the lulz of Chaos".

Dark Angels and Raven Guard need psykers back for the same reason. To make sure that everyone in their Legion is on the up and up. What happened to each of their Legions only happened because psykers weren't allowed to read minds at random. Which is what they're for.

Daemons are involved in the Battle of Calth. And Guilliman tells his psykers to suit up near the end. Otherwise the planet was going to poop. And Guilliman says the first thing he's going to do when he gets back is get rid of the edict.
Timeline-wise, Garro is set near the end of the Battle of Calth, and independent of Guilliman, Garro tells a psyker to use his powers.

During the battle of Terra, things aren't going well. Dorn gathers all his remaining psykers and tells them that it's go time.

In Fear to Tread, the upcoming Blood Angels book (not-a-spoiler; Sanguinius survives that Bloodthirster on the front...Because he has to face Horus), it's rumoured that one of the subplots is that Sanguinius never even enforced the edict within his own Legion...Although that's a rumour.

[bluntpencil]

That does make the Space Wolves' attack on Prospero more interesting...

Until the books came out, I always imagined that Nikaea forbade sorcery as opposed to psychic powers. Of course, that's now not the case. Okay, we know the Space Wolves were duped, but even then, if they were still using Rune Priests, or started using them soon after, wouldn't they have realised their error, especially since they had listened to Horus of all people and burned Prospero?

Maybe the Emperor saw some psychic stuff as worse than others...

The Emperor>Navigators and Astropaths>Malcador>Librarians>Sorcerers being a scale of best to worst?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Until the books came out, I always imagined that Nikaea forbade sorcery as opposed to psychic powers.

Sorcery had always been banned.

Okay, we know the Space Wolves were duped, but even then, if they were still using Rune Priests, or started using them soon after, wouldn't they have realised their error, especially since they had listened to Horus of all people and burned Prospero?

Rune Priests don't push the limits and know the extent of the power and don't try for any more. Rune Priests and Space Wolves don't believe that their powers come from the Warp. A Thousand Sons.
For whatever reason, Space Wolves appear to be exempt from the Nikean Edict. Or just broke it immediately to deal with the Sons.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Sorcery had always been banned.



Rune Priests don't push the limits and know the extent of the power and don't try for any more. Rune Priests and Space Wolves don't believe that their powers come from the Warp. A Thousand Sons.
For whatever reason, Space Wolves appear to be exempt from the Nikean Edict. Or just broke it immediately to deal with the Sons.

That's what I don't really get. They broke the Edict to punish dudes for breaking that Edict.

And surely, with the Emperor preaching militant atheism, they'd realise it wasn't gods or spirits giving them magic, but the Warp?

Hmm.

Maybe the details of the Nikaean Council came up funny:

Psykers psyking get 10 years in prison.

Sorcerers get executed en-masse?

Space Wolves get more lenient treatment, on account of thinking the Nikaean Edict was a great idea.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Kesnit

Both of those would take time, and why would AL even have paint

Its just paint. Its not like its mithril.

Death Company repaint their entire armour the day before a battle.

[Kesnit]

Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Death Company repaint their entire armour the day before a battle.

But they paint it in their legion's colors, which they would have. As opposed to carrying around paint colors for other legions.

[Squark]

Originally Posted by Kesnit

But they paint it in their legion's colors, which they would have. As opposed to carrying around paint colors for other legions.

It's paint. I can't imagine, if you're planning for something like this, that paint is hard to come by.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Kesnit

But they paint it in their legion's colors, which they would have. As opposed to carrying around paint colors for other legions.

I doubt the Space Wolves have a cupboard on their battlefield full of salamanders green, but this is the Alpha Legion we're talking about. If it involves misdirection they've practiced to do it more efficiency than other chapter's practice reloading their bolters. Heck they can probably repaint their armour in the time it takes a Space Wolf to reload a bolter.