Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten - Page 22

Cheesegear · 05-26-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kesnit

Spoiler

Unless you had pre-painted your armour black, before you landed on Istvaan. So that when you ran across loyalist Marines, you could be best friends and then shoot them in the back and then use psykers to take their memories and get them to faceshift you into the guy you need to look like.

Wraith · 05-27-2012, 01:07 PM

Or, potentially, have small hit teams finding dead Marines and having them steal his armour before the virus bomb goes off.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Alpha Legion had a stockpile of other Legion's Power Armour, so that they would look truley authentic when the time came to use it, and all the biological evidence would be vapourised or otherwise make unrecognisable by the bombardment.

Even if it weren't, it was a battlefield with pieces of Marine scattered everywhere and the Heretics won, so it's not like any of the Loyalists could go back and check if someone turned up in an escape shuttle a few days later, wearing the right armour and claiming to have barely escaped with his life.

Cheesegear · 05-28-2012, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wraith

Or, potentially, have small hit teams finding dead Marines and having them steal his armour before the virus bomb goes off.

Well, that, and my earlier post is essentially the plan.

So...Butcher's Nails. Pretty decent. I assume the idea behind the novella is to get us used to the idea that Angron and Lorgar are Best Friends Forever. One particular scene that I liked was Lorgar acting as Angron's chaplain, asking him about his rage. Also, Angron's puzzlement as to how and when Lorgar 'grew a backbone', since there aren't many who will stand up to Angron.

Obviously, now that we're convinced that Lorgar and Angron are BFFs, we're ready for Betrayer.

Spoiler

...Which appears to be ~~Sauron~~ Lorgar and Angron stomping all over ~~Mount Doom~~ Ultramar.

SocioWrath · 06-02-2012, 05:04 PM

Anyone got the new white dwarf, are there new rules for 6th edition in this one?

Cheesegear · 06-02-2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SocioWrath

Anyone got the new white dwarf, are there new rules for 6th edition in this one?

No. There are the new fliers. That's it. And this, really, is a question for the Tactics thread.

SocioWrath · 06-03-2012, 01:09 AM

My bad, local shop only got one copy, the manager thinks someone stole it and his rep said the issue is sold out

Priest33 · 06-03-2012, 10:27 PM

Never really liked Logar in the books, may have been the writter, however, in that Novela does he come across as more of a man and less of a child. Cheesegear?

Cheesegear · 06-04-2012, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest33

Never really liked Logar in the books, may have been the writer

Err...Aaron Dembski-Bowden is one of the three best writers BL are currently employing. I don't think that's the problem.

Quote:

however, in that Novela does he come across as more of a man and less of a child. Cheesegear?

There is a significant difference between whiny-little-b*-Lorgar, and soul-sucking-cancer Lorgar. Post-'Truth', Lorgar is an entirely different character, and that's often a surprise to everyone around him.

Acanous · 06-04-2012, 07:54 AM

I never really liked Lorgar's excuse for turning to Chaos. I mean, it makes the Emp look like a ****.
That'd be fine if the universe at that point was as conflicted and grimdark as it is now, but Emp is supposed to have been a pretty cool guy.

Cheesegear · 06-04-2012, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acanous

I never really liked Lorgar's excuse for turning to Chaos. I mean, it makes the Emp look like a ****.

Again. That's the point. 9 Primarchs didn't turn because they felt like it.

Squark · 06-04-2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acanous

I never really liked Lorgar's excuse for turning to Chaos. I mean, it makes the Emp look like a ****.
That'd be fine if the universe at that point was as conflicted and grimdark as it is now, but Emp is supposed to have been a pretty cool guy.

But an incredibly, incredibly, spectacularly, unbelievably bad father.

Priest33 · 06-04-2012, 10:27 PM

Oh my mistake, I enjoyed the book that ADB wrote, just never enjoyed the Logar character. If he has manned up then I will get the novella (or my hands on a copy some how) and give the character a second chance.

That said the other primarchs I have enjoyed are Horus, Alpharius (both of them), Fulgrim (in the end, great writting), Corax for his brief appearences so far (havent read the books/stories on the raven guard yet), Night Haunter, and Russ. The rest I need more info on, or more exposure I think.

Did not enjoy Logar and Lion, but that can always change

Cheesegear · 06-05-2012, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest33

Oh my mistake, I enjoyed the book that ADB wrote, just never enjoyed the Logar character. If he has manned up then I will get the novella (or my hands on a copy some how) and give the character a second chance.

I don't know what's wrong with Lorgar. He preferred rhetoric instead of violence to convert people. It took a while, but it always ended with 100% compliance. And that's okay by me. It was just by contrast, his brothers, who are all about fighting, tended to walk all over him. And, given the natures of a large number of people who frequent this hobby of ours, I can see why a lot of people might not like reading that character.
Not only that, but, in a Universe about fighting, the guy who doesn't fight, isn't going to look 'fun' or 'cool'.

Then he was humiliated and shown the 'error' of his ways by his father, and, by the brother he hated the most - Guilliman. And, then, he decided to cause more violence and bloodshed than the rest of his brothers combined...And he was really good at it. But, the thing is, Lorgar has a legit reason to to hate his father, and his Fall makes total sense. Aurelian makes it even better.

IMO; Horus and the Lion are the worst. Horus' Fall makes no sense. I mean, one moment he's a good guy, next he's bad, with no processes in between. I mean, Erebus contributes, but it's never really clear how Erebus was able to do that in the first place. Lion is just boring.

Fulgrim is okay. But the ending of Fulgrim has a lot of people raging. Which is explained in The Primarchs, so maybe people wont rage anymore.

Other favourites are Dorn and Night Haunter.

Fear to Tread comes out later this year.

Spoiler

Which appears to be the battle of Signus Prime where Sanguinius fights Ka'Bandha the first time - who he'll fight again later above Eternity Gate. Yeah, that Bloodthirster.

5 year-old spoiler that isn't actually a spoiler

Spoiler

Closet_Skeleton · 06-05-2012, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

IMO; Horus and the Lion are the worst. Horus' Fall makes no sense. I mean, one moment he's a good guy, next he's bad, with no processes in between. I mean, Erebus contributes, but it's never really clear how Erebus was able to do that in the first place. Lion is just boring.

That's mainly the fault of his fall being the oldest and belonging to what's really a differant concept of the forces involved that really doesn't work anymore.

When the basics of Horus' fall were layed down, you didn't fall to chaos, you just got possessed and that was it. Lorgar isn't even in the older versions so he was created with a much more current expectation of the fluff in mind.

Cheesegear · 06-05-2012, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

When the basics of Horus' fall were layed down, you didn't fall to chaos, you just got possessed and that was it. Lorgar isn't even in the older versions so he was created with a much more current expectation of the fluff in mind.

What? Lorgar has been around for fifteen years.
Unless you mean Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy In Flames aren't current? Horus' Fall, in these books, does not make sense. This is what I'm talking about. Not 'original' fluff from 2nd Ed.

None of the Primarchs were possessed when they Fell (Fulgrim debatable). And of them all, only Magnus knew what Chaos even was when he did Fall.

hamishspence · 06-05-2012, 09:07 AM

There were a few hints- Horus resenting the Council of Terra and lamenting that it's them giving him the orders- and in the "dream sequence" which ends with him falling, we have:

Spoiler

In Index Astartes: Black Legion, the "Horus was possessed" theory is raised- and in the William King story of the battle between Horus and the Emperor, Horus is "freed" during the Emperor's attack on him- before the Emperor continues it (knowing he can be taken over again) and destroys him.

Cheesegear · 06-05-2012, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamishspence

and in the "dream sequence" which ends with him falling, we have:

That's what annoys me.

Horus is vaguely annoyed at the High Council. Nothing he hasn't particularly seen before. He knows he's Daddy's favourite and isn't going anywhere, anytime soon.
Horus has a bad dream. Led by Erebus. But it's still just a bad dream with no real proof of anything except that he saw it in a dream one time - that right there is definitive proof of EVERYTHING!
Horus turns evil.

Zorg · 06-05-2012, 11:53 AM

The very early (pre-primarch early) versions explicitly had Horus posessed by a daemon on Davin.

I like the Lion... but then again I'm bi-polar so I can relate

Closet_Skeleton · 06-05-2012, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

What? Lorgar has been around for fifteen years.
Unless you mean Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy In Flames aren't current? Horus' Fall, in these books, does not make sense. This is what I'm talking about. Not 'original' fluff from 2nd Ed.

I'm blaming the reason why the current material (like those books you mention which yes, are current despite probably being half a decade old by now, I suck at time and still feel like ogre kingdoms are brand new despite being two editions old) doesn't make sense on the fact that the current material is trying to elabourate on old fluff while cutting out the reasoning behind that old fluff.

This naturally creates nonsense that just doesn't work. Lorgar (I've never read the 2nd ed chaos codex so I may be wrong here) was pretty much just a name until index astartes and later the Horus Heresy stuff came out. He might have been around for ages but the details haven't. So he has the advantage in that his story was created with a much more fleshed out universe to stand on. Horus was just a throw away line to explain why the Emperor couldn't leave his chair with the added benefit of providing an excuse to use daemons and space marines in the same army.

Its partially the fault of the concept of the Horus Heresy series. Taking backstory that's just supposed to be there to explain why plastic models fight each other and then requiring it to be an epic tragic story. "He was possessed so he went evil over night" works fine when how the primarchs went evil wasn't an important part of the story. But for a tragic epic trying to elabourate on its characters its a complete cop out. So they removed it and banished it to canon limbo and rushed ahead without thinking through what would replace it well enough.

The problem isn't really that 'it made sense and then they changed it so it sucks' its that 'they didn't change it enough'. If they threw out the baby with the bathwater and started from scratch like they could with the non-fleshed out primarchs it might have worked. Instead they threw out the baby and kept the bath water and forgot why the water in this bath smelled a bit odd.

Zorg · 06-06-2012, 04:08 AM

The writers also had the issue that they had no idea how well the series was going to do so had to rush (at least compared to later books/arcs) to get Horus' fall out. When that was a huge success they could take the time to develop the characters to make their falls more believable.

Cheesegear · 06-06-2012, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorg

The writers also had the issue that they had no idea how well the series was going to do so had to rush (at least compared to later books/arcs) to get Horus' fall out. When that was a huge success they could take the time to develop the characters to make their falls more believable.

Of course, I'm not totally averse to the possibility that Horus may get possessed later for his duel against Dad, or that a later book might retcon the fact that maybe Horus was possessed the whole time and didn't know it, and the Daemon inside him was slowly manipulating his descisions (even though Erebus was doing it anyway), but, so far, that isn't the case. So until I get new information, the current information is what I have to go on.

I also think it might have something to do with three different writers over the arc. That doesn't happen anymore. And, unlike Anthony Reynolds and the Word Bearers (First Heretic and Aurelian, are fantastic but I feel like AR has somehow been cheated), James Swallow is actually keeping the Blood Angels (Fear to Tread).

Priest33 · 06-06-2012, 07:02 PM

Disliked the fall of Horus as well, however the character was well written imho. Just feel there could have been more written about how Erebus actually became so close to the warmaster, as that didnt make much sence to me. Or how he held such weight over the rest of the "Luna Wolves/Sons" when he was an outsider...

Issabella · 06-08-2012, 08:20 PM

Fluff wise do the Tyranids have warp tavel or are they drifting from system to system sub light? (or have they discovered a non warp >lightspeed means of travel?)

Secondary 'Nid fluff question, has there been anything written from a Chaos view regarding the Tyranids? Is it an actual threat to the Chaos gods/warp?

Isak · 06-08-2012, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Issabella

Fluff wise do the Tyranids have warp tavel or are they drifting from system to system sub light? (or have they discovered a non warp >lightspeed means of travel?)

To answer the first question, Tyranids use a special Bioship called a Narvhal. Basically, they can feel planets by their gravitational pulls, create small tunnels through space using the aforementioned gravity, and pull the Tyranid fleets through these tunnels.

Now, this brings up the question... Tyranids are from another galaxy altogether... Do they use this same method to go from one galaxy to the next? Or are they using a different means to do this?

The Lexicanum article states that the Narvhal's have to cease their function a good distance away from the target planet, otherwise the gravity effects them too much. Does a galaxy have the same problem, but from a much farther distance?

Kris Strife · 06-09-2012, 12:48 AM

I think the 'nids are a threat to chaos as they lack individual souls, and the shadow of the warp probably has a less than pleasant effect on daemons. Plus the fact that if they win, the entire galaxy is stripped of life, which means the Immaterium becomes calm and orderly again.

I think anyways, I could be wrong but I believe that's the issue there.

bluntpencil · 06-09-2012, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isak

To answer the first question, Tyranids use a special Bioship called a Narvhal. Basically, they can feel planets by their gravitational pulls, create small tunnels through space using the aforementioned gravity, and pull the Tyranid fleets through these tunnels.

Now, this brings up the question... Tyranids are from another galaxy altogether... Do they use this same method to go from one galaxy to the next? Or are they using a different means to do this?

The Lexicanum article states that the Narvhal's have to cease their function a good distance away from the target planet, otherwise the gravity effects them too much. Does a galaxy have the same problem, but from a much farther distance?

Narwhals?

Borgh · 06-11-2012, 05:54 AM

Just finished Path of the Renegade. Was disappointed. The story is bland, the characters human (or space marine), and the writer too-clearly read GRR Martin (who is a craven and breaks their fast? just SoIaF people thats who)

Spoiler

and there was more stuff but I already forgot.

Next year there will be the sequel, Path of the Incubus, which sounds somewhat better as the only badass character in the book is an Incubus with a lot of unexplained backstory, however it is by the same writer so I'm setting up for disappointment

Cheesegear · 06-11-2012, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borgh

Next year there will be the sequel, Path of the Incubus, which sounds somewhat better as the only badass character in the book is an Incubus with a lot of unexplained backstory, however it is by the same writer so I'm setting up for disappointment

While I try my best not to rip on Gav Thorpe; his Eldar books are pretty bad. He has a bad tendency to write 'emo' characters. Sure, in his Raven Guard stories it works. But, in every single book? Not really.

Zorg · 06-11-2012, 07:49 AM

Lucky for him that Renegade was written by Andy Chambers then

Borgh · 06-15-2012, 05:03 AM

Since everyone seems to have run out of things to argue about (wait what?) I'll just do one more mini-bookreview this time its The Primarchs. Holy throne that book was good.
The first story (a reflection cracke'd) is realy tense, well written (you really get the sense that Lucius is not entirely sane in the Emperors Children way anymore) and despite all the anal rape (yes, anal rape) it neatly retcons away some of the more annoying primarch canon.(see spoiler)

Spoiler

so all in all, great story.
Feat of iron is IMO the weakest of the book which in no way means its bad. I did like the Eldar in this story, they truly seem alien. Ferrus Manus just felt...I don't know, like a side character in this story while all the spotlight is stolen by a newly-promoted sergeant who has to go against his somewhat dogmatic superiors. Very classic storyline but no worse for it.
The Lion was good story too, it reflects the proud-but-torn nature of the first legion. The death guard make a relatively small but plot-heavy appearance and this story mainly feels like foreshadowing to other stuff I havn't read yet (do the dark angels books include the Tuchulcha? if so then this is a prequel)
The Serpent Beneath is weird, confusing and full of unfathomable implications for the rest of the universe. Just like a good Alpha Legion book should be. If you liked Atlas Infernal you will like this story, its the same (excellent) writer and it shows in the feverish action, shadowy intrigue and all the weird plot twists. I did not get the ending (as in, the last three sentences) but feel like this will show its serpentine head in later stories.

So yeah excellent book, I heartily recommend it.