Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Cheesegear]

So, The Crimson Fist, available soon in the Shadows of Treachery antholgy out in October. Or, you can be like me, and buy stand-alone eBooks 2 months earlier. Crimson Fist tells the simultaneous 'Fall' of Sigismund (Fall isn't the right word, but nothing better comes to mind), and Rise of Alexis Polux - who becomes the Chapter Master of the Crimson Fists. No, that's not a spoiler. That's something you should probably already know. Like Sigismund being the CM of the Templars. However, Alexis is a lot less talked about. But...The title of the story. Derp.

Big continuity nod to The Lightning Tower/Dark King and slight reference to Butcher's Nails. And mentions Garro a couple of times.

Spoiler'lert.

Spoiler

The book opens very strongly. With Alex adrift in space. His Power Armour is running low and freezing over. He is essentially in a coffin, in space. It reminds me of the Dreadnought in Know No Fear.

Alexis is recovered, and, coincidentally, he was also his Captain's successor-in-training. It's implied that this is a recent development and Alex was never supposed to be put in charge so soon. However, many of the older, more Veteran Marines just tell him 'tough, get used to it'. We're then given the information that Sigismund was supposed to be in charge of this mission, but he declined and put the now-deceased Captain in charge.

Dorn - as I predicted a long time ago - is having trouble being in Command. But, Sigismund has stayed at Terra to keep an eye on him. They have a conversation in which Dorn and Sigusmund reaffirm that they're bros 4 lyf.

We cut back to Alex who wonders if Dorn has problems like this. And we see Alex earning the respect of the Veteran Marines that he's been put in charge of by accident.

We cut back to Sigismund, who is having trouble dealing with his emotions (rage and hate) after the news that Garro delivered. And Sigismund goes to Dorn in the place where the Primarch statues are. And Dorn is raging at the covered statue of Curze (much like he does in Dark King). Sigismund tells Dorn that he went to see Euphrati Keeler (remember her? From Flight of the Eisenstein?), and Sigismund relates to Dorn that Keeler predicted two possible futures for Sigismund and he tells Dorn the real reason he stayed behind at Terra instead of taking over the Fleet at Istvaan.

Dorn...Uncharacteristically rages out. And refuses to forgive Sigismund ending their Bros 4 Lyf. I actually really don't like this part. As Sigismund going to see Keeler reeks of contrivance, and Dorn is uncharacteristically not-Dorn. But Sigismund's inner monologue says Dorn may be yelling at Horus through Sigismund-by-proxy, and that Dorn probably doesn't mean what he's saying.

Anyway, Sigismund maintains that he's still a Fist and vows that he will stand by Dorn whether Dorn wants him or not.

Cut back to Alex. His Fleet is being attacked by Iron Warriors. Perterabo wants Sigismund's head. However, Sigismund isn't commanding the fleet, and instead we've got the 'unknown' Fleet Master (Admiral?) Alexis Polux who is not Sigismund and doesn't just order attack after attack which Perterabo was prepared for.

A series of events later, we see Alexis with a Power Fist punching holes in Iron Warriors and bringing out his Fists covered in red and gore...I wonder what that's supposed to mean!? GAIS! GAIS! HEY U GAIS! WHAT DO YOU THINK!?

All in all, I really like the emphasis that a lot of the more recent books are putting on non-combat. And, Imperial Fists and Dorn - IMO - have the best non-combat personalities in the 'verse. Nearly all of them appear to be depressed (IRL; Many mental illnesses are hereditary) and one of the first things IFs apparently learn is to shut down their emotions, and thus they have an outward reputation for being emotionless robots. When, in fact, pretty much all of them have anger-control issues and the feeling that nothing they ever do will ever be good enough, ever. Which explains the masochism.
"Pain is how you know you're still alive."

I understand Dorn's treatment of Astropaths, as he just wants his Sons home and he will force anything to make that happen. However, I don't understand Alexis' treatment of Astropaths.

What I want to see in the future;
Dorn laying a smackdown on Curze. Payback's a b*. Of course, Dorn isn't the one to kill Curze because we all know M'Shen does that.
Some sort of Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns-esque duology for Eternity Gate with Dorn/Sigismund in one book, and Angron/Kharn in the other.

Minor spoiler which probably isn't a spoiler

Spoiler

Kharn is killed at Eternity Gate by a 'Champion of the Emperor'. Most people believe it's either Sigismund or Amit 'The Flesh Tearer' (a Blood Angel)...Or it might be a 1v2 affair.

Next on the reading list is Grey Angel (the third Garro audiobook) and Iron Guard.

[Maquise]

There's something that has always confused me.

Could someone please explain to me how the orks' latent psychic energy works? The one thing that confuses me is the implication that it doesn't come from the Warp, which is where I thought all psychic energy came from.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Maquise

Could someone please explain to me how the orks' latent psychic energy works? The one thing that confuses me is the implication that it doesn't come from the Warp, which is where I thought all psychic energy came from.

Orks are like Tyranids. Their psychic Groupthink is a closed circuit.

Maybe it does come from the Warp? It's implied that it doesn't. But it maybe does? It's supposed to be unclear.

[Squark]

If I had to guess, I'd say that it's more that the Waagh field provides a buffer of sorts; All psychic powers are drawn from people's souls interacting with the warp, but with the orks, Power is drawn from the Waagh field which exists within the warp.

[Kesnit]

I feel really stupid having to ask this, but I'd rather understand than keep wondering.

I finally got around to listening to Gray Angel.

Spoiler

I got that Loken and Qruze were sent to Caliban to find out if the Dark Angels were still loyal to the Emperor. Loken let himself be captured so he could meet Luther. When Loken didn't return, Qruze went to rescue him.

Now for my stupid questions...

Spoiler

Who or what was in Loken's cell, and who or what led them out of the tower?

I keep wondering if there is a deeper meaning, some clue, in the end of the audio drama, or if it is just a story.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Kesnit

Spoiler

Who or what was in Loken's cell, and who or what led them out of the tower?

Spoiler

A Watcher in the Dark. One of the little guys that holds Azrael's helmet.

[gooddragon1]

Just had an idea as I was re-downloading skyrim...
If games workshop were so inclined they too could make an expansive RPG game. Now, to keep in the Imperium they'd have to pick a single operative who could fit any number of methods, use any type of equipment, be augmented enough for combat, and go wherever they wanted. Sounds like an inquisitor. Specifically an inquisitor who has decided not to join one of the Ordos (which is actually possible according to the lexicanum).

I'd say that it should be possible for the inquisitor to hitch rides to different worlds but it would be best to keep all action limited to a few worlds. He could probably also requisition assistance from space marines of different chapters, gain access to xeno weaponry through a marketplace, use psyker powers, even join the forces of chaos if he really wanted to.

Steam already has some games from games workshop on their client so getting more on there wouldn't be impossible. Best part is that you get guns AND melee weapons as well as the brutal nature of the 40k universe so potentially unlimited combat which makes sense for the 40k universe. Additional DLC could be additional worlds or enemies.

What do you guys think?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by gooddragon1

If games workshop were so inclined they too could make an expansive RPG game.

They could. And have.
Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch. Transpose those into computer games and you're done.

[Parra]

Im pretty sure he meant an on/offline version as opposed to pnp in a similar vein to Skyrim

[blueblade]

It might be interesting to see a take on a universe as large as WH40k. But I see it working much more as a series of instanced events (sort of like a Diablo-style), rather than a true persistent world.

It would need to have a number of factors which might make it at best wildly different from a regular MMORGP, and at worst, completely unplayable:

• Wildly different playstyles for each character class/race. Even limited to some of the more 'normal' factions (IG, SM, Tau), they all play so very differently and are structured so differently that they would effectively be different games.
• No balance. Each class is truly playing their own game. I do not want a game where a fire warrior, a guardsman & a space marine are all equally good, just different. Balance has to go out the window! Give me PvP where 100 orks face 20 Space Marines and I think everyone will have a good time.
• Persistent character yes, continuous timeline, no. The pace of life in WH40K cannot be ignored. A planet based guardsmen, or an in system trader live such a wildly different pace of life from a space marine, never mind a CSM/'Nids/'Crons. Much better to play instances (possibly 100s of them) representing particular conflicts (from small skirmishes, to hulks, to the full Armageddon wars), and avoid persistence entirely.
• No resource economy. with the possible exception of rogue traders (if included), you play a grunt. maybe you rise through the ranks, but ultimately, everything you own comes from your chapter/regiment/tribe/caste/whatever. You can gain rep or similar for better gear & abilities, but you do not simply gain some kind of universal currency.

/my 2 cents. I'd play that game. one of the nice things about it, is that it's wonderfully setup for growth over time, and that it creates a PvP experience that doesn't really exist elsewhere right now. Closest example might be Left 4 dead, where certain zombies outclass survivors, but even that is largely an exercise in balance.

[HalfTangible]

Originally Posted by blueblade

It might be interesting to see a take on a universe as large as WH40k. But I see it working much more as a series of instanced events (sort of like a Diablo-style), rather than a true persistent world.

It would need to have a number of factors which might make it at best wildly different from a regular MMORGP, and at worst, completely unplayable:

• Wildly different playstyles for each character class/race. Even limited to some of the more 'normal' factions (IG, SM, Tau), they all play so very differently and are structured so differently that they would effectively be different games.
• No balance. Each class is truly playing their own game. I do not want a game where a fire warrior, a guardsman & a space marine are all equally good, just different. Balance has to go out the window! Give me PvP where 100 orks face 20 Space Marines and I think everyone will have a good time.
• Persistent character yes, continuous timeline, no. The pace of life in WH40K cannot be ignored. A planet based guardsmen, or an in system trader live such a wildly different pace of life from a space marine, never mind a CSM/'Nids/'Crons. Much better to play instances (possibly 100s of them) representing particular conflicts (from small skirmishes, to hulks, to the full Armageddon wars), and avoid persistence entirely.
• No resource economy. with the possible exception of rogue traders (if included), you play a grunt. maybe you rise through the ranks, but ultimately, everything you own comes from your chapter/regiment/tribe/caste/whatever. You can gain rep or similar for better gear & abilities, but you do not simply gain some kind of universal currency.

/my 2 cents. I'd play that game. one of the nice things about it, is that it's wonderfully setup for growth over time, and that it creates a PvP experience that doesn't really exist elsewhere right now. Closest example might be Left 4 dead, where certain zombies outclass survivors, but even that is largely an exercise in balance.

Thoughts/Ideas.

-Maybe a life system would work (for instanced pvp, anyway) to provide some measure of balance? Like a space marine in regular power armor gets 10 lives, a guardsman gets 50? It would help reflect the differences between races, but wouldn't help simulate the massive battles of 40K...

-Horde Armies like Orks, Guardsmen and 'Nids could spawn AI allies when selected in PVP (a la section 8) This would be particularly 'fluffy' with nids if one added a synapse mechanic (possibly an aura?) but I'm not really sure how well that would work out...

[Squark]

For a pvp shooter (or shooter with pvp mode), I think an npc ally system might be a good way to balance things out. A Space marine might only get a combat squad, while a Guardsman is the sergeant for an entire squad of 10 veterans, a Necron player is a lord or cryptek in charge of some warriors or immortals, etc. Is there a shooter on the market right now where everyone is in charge of a squad of their own, sort of like Republic Commando turned multiplayer?

The real problem I see is balancing things within a faction; Let's face it, the guy playing a firewarrior is kind of getting the short stick next to the guy in the crisis suit, and playing as a Terminator or a dreadnaught is a lot cooler than being a scout sergeant.

As for an RPG, the question is, do we want an open ended RPG (Skyrim), or a more tightly plotted game a la Bioware. The open ended version gives you more of the independance someone like an Inquisitor would have, but I feel a more linear game could capture atmosphere a lot better, and charactes could be better fleshed out.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Squark

As for an RPG, the question is, do we want an open ended RPG (Skyrim), or a more tightly plotted game a la Bioware. The open ended version gives you more of the independance someone like an Inquisitor would have, but I feel a more linear game could capture atmosphere a lot better, and charactes could be better fleshed out.

For an Inquisitor game, the game's story ends with your death. Preferably at the hands of those who you once called your Allies. There are no open-endings for Inquisitors.

[Parra]

I would love a skyrimesque 40k game. Though I have no idea how you would handle the multiple races. Restricting it to Imperium PC's (guardsman, SM, Inquisitor etc) would be a missed opportunity.

[Squark]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

For an Inquisitor game, the game's story ends with your death. Preferably at the hands of those who you once called your Allies. There are no open-endings for Inquisitors.

Let me clarify; I meant a sandbox style game. Although you can always end the game before an Inquisitor's death, with them going off to deal with the next crisis, maybe with subtle hints that what you've had to do is beginning to corrupt you.

Actually, an RPG in which the struggle was as much to avoid becoming corrupted and jaded by what you've had to do while still trying to do your job sounds like it could be very interesting. Hmm... Does anyone have any idea what Dark Millenium is shaping up to be?


The real issue with a Skyrim-esque game in Sci-fi, I think, is that you'd start to run into the problem Bioware had with ME 1 and SWTOR; When you have dozens of planets in a game, you either end up with a relatively boring, bland, computer generated look for most planets (ME 1), or the areas end up small and somewhat constrained (SWTOR). Limiting yourself to only a few planets on the other hand, and people complain you haven't used the full depth of the setting... Although, actually, if you do a system with multiple habitable planets, that's actually pretty suitable for 40k, given how long warp travel takes.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Squark

Does anyone have any idea what Dark Millenium is shaping up to be?

Dead in the water. THQ and Vigil both significantly downsized their companies earlier this year. Dark Millenium was then announced that it would be more focused on single player with a more 'traditional' PvP multiplayer (i.e; like Generic Brown and Grey Shooter 9)...So, basically the single player will be what it is, and the multi-player will be lke Space Marine, or like WAR.

So I hope people bought Darksiders 2, otherwise Vigil goes under and THQ goes and publishes something else.

[blueblade]

So... anybody read Fear to Tread yet? NO SPOILERS PLEASE, but what are folks thoughts on it?

I'm really looking forward to this one. I haven't read much BA stuff before, so getting their PoV should be interesting. Sangy has always seemed kind of Mary-Sue to me, and the way he's been setup in the HH novels (as the 'should have been' Warmaster/Heir and all round great guy) makes me interested to find out a bit more about him and his traits.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by blueblade

So... anybody read Fear to Tread yet? NO SPOILERS PLEASE, but what are folks thoughts on it?

It's good. Without spoilers, that's about all I can say about it. Some parts could have been better, sure. But it was good nonetheless. Nothing that we haven't come to expect from James Swallow. One thing that I didn't expect from this book was 'Middle-Book Syndrome' which I haven't really seen in a Black Library book for a while.

Beginning is good. Introduces characters and relationships, sets up the quest for McGuffin, where Point B is from Point A, and who the enemy is. Ending is strong as it should be...But the middle...Just kind of happens and stalls out until the action starts again.

Swallow writes GrimDark. And I mean the good kind. Abnett writes GrimDark where at the end of a scene or chapter you have to put the book down and think "Huh...Well that sucks..." Wheras Swallow writes GrimDark where at the end you keep reading thinking "I hope he gets out of this."

The show-stealer of the book, is of course Captain Amit. And I can't wait for him and Sigismund to bro-fist at Eternity Gate.

[Wraith]

Speaking of Dan Abnett - and because I've got my thumb on the pulse of all the hip new trends - I'm just about finished reading Malleus as part of my Eisenhorn anthology.

I have to say, I'm enjoying it a lot. Since I was unable to finish the last two 40k books that I bought (Path of the Warrior and Survival Instinct ), Eisenhorn is comparatively gripping. I like the characters, and the plot holds enough combined mystery and action to give a really good account of 'every day' life in the Imperium.

Having said that, it suffers from the same great flaw that has inevitably ground away my tolerance for the Ciaphas Cain novels....

Spoiler

...which is that it it written from a first person perspective.

Don't get me wrong, it is very well written and Eisenhorn has an excellent 'voice', but as soon as you hear the main character say, "I looked down the barrel of my enemy's gun and knew I was doomed" it instantly kills any and all suspense.
You can't help but know he's going to get out of it alright - at least, well enough to survive this enemy, and the big bad controlling them, and then to retire somewhere quiet long enough to dictate several years' worth of story into their memoires.

Might be a nit-pick but the Imperium is supposed to be the place where 'anyone can die'.... and I knew from page 1 that Eisenhorn is going to survive until at least page 764.

Also, Abnett doesn't seem to remember his own continuity very well. Obviously I have the advantage of reading - back-to-back - what took him 3 years and in dispersed with other projects, but I've spotted at least 3 simple errors that should have been picked up by a proof-reader. That's kind of annoying, too.

All being said, I'm looking forward to Hereticus and the Ravenor Omnibus which is also sat on my To Do list.

[GolemsVoice]

I definitely recommend both books, Wraith, they're really great.

One thing about Abnett's first person voice:
In a way, you're right, of course, a character telling a story has obviously survived whatever he's telling about, so some of these scenes lose some weight in the retelling. However, what keeps me on my toes is that Eisenhorn suffers, a lot, and loses many things that are dear to him (I'd say there are no spoilers involved, this IS Warhammer 40k) So while he won't ever get killed, the danger he tells of always felt real, and you expect and fear that bad things will happen. Even moreso because Abnett has a way of making you like his characters.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Also, Abnett doesn't seem to remember his own continuity very well.

He's also wildly inconsistent with his characters' abilities. At least, with Gaunt and his =][= books. In one book, they're able to do something. But, in a book later on, they can't, or they can do it with difficulty that they didn't have when they did it the first time.

Also, if people haven't seen it yet;

Spoiler

Slated for October/November release.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

However, what keeps me on my toes is that Eisenhorn suffers, a lot, and loses many things that are dear to him (I'd say there are no spoilers involved, this IS Warhammer 40k) So while he won't ever get killed, the danger he tells of always felt real, and you expect and fear that bad things will happen. Even moreso because Abnett has a way of making you like his characters.

I won't argue against that, but so far everything I've seen him lose is fairly trivial or otherwise easily subverted.

Spoiler

Losing the ability to smile, for example.... oh well. Being psychic makes that a none-issue more than once.
He loses his left hand..... And points out that he could have had a fully functional bionic replacement almost immediately, but simply chose not to.
A number of his staff die in active service.... Yet by the next short story, let alone book, his list of contacts has increased 10-fold to the point where he has to actively send some of them away, and the 'important' ones never seem to be in the slightest danger.
He loses his unique/special weapons, like his power sword and Astartes-gifted boltpistol.... And immediately finds a magical rock with which to build a runestaff and an expert metallurgist who can create a Force Blade for him.

Yes, he's challenged quite grievously... But I always get the sense that he can't help but come back stronger than ever.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

He's also wildly inconsistent with his characters' abilities. At least, with Gaunt and his =][= books.

Eisenhorn doesn't seem too bad in that respect, and when it does occur it's usually handwaved away with a plausible excuse. It's usually just sminor points like in the first few chapters of Malleus where he falls off a jetbike and supposedly breaks his left (and thus, bionic) wrist, and such.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Slated for October/November release.

I'll have to push myself to get through Ravenor quickly, then. As it stands, without proper reference, it sounds as though Ravenor would simply turn his chair up to 11 and mind-bolt Eisenhorn into oblivion. The end.

[Platinius]

I'd rather expect a dialogue like this

"Obi-wan Ravenor, I was a blind, obedient zealot for the corrupt Imperium, now I am the master"
"Only a master of evil, Darth Eisenhorn"

[shadow_archmagi]

I've always personally believed that STALKER was some kind of spiritual cousin to 40k, at least as far as grimdark goes. I'd like to see some of the now-defunct STALKER devs brought into a 40k FPS, to give it that sense of "You will be alone in the rain in a world that will murder you and you will have a gun that isn't really capable of killing mutants"

[Squark]

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

I've always personally believed that STALKER was some kind of spiritual cousin to 40k, at least as far as grimdark goes. I'd like to see some of the now-defunct STALKER devs brought into a 40k FPS, to give it that sense of "You will be alone in the rain in a world that will murder you and you will have a gun that isn't really capable of killing mutants"

Except, you know, from most of the player's perspective, it will kill that mutant. And splatter his guts on the two guys next to him (and probably kill them with the shrapnel).

[God Imperror]

Some of my friends are considering to start playing the game and I find it pretty cool since it's been ages since I played. Though I have doubts on picking an army. I would like to play an extremist space marine chapter akin to the Relictors though more in tune with the Ordo Xenos, thus using weapon and technology confiscated from other races. I have a few ideas on building some fluff for it but I wondered if something similar already existed, any ideas?

[Wraith]

Kind of puts me in mind of the Mentors Chapter, though twisted around a little.

There would be a difference, in that the Mentors loan their squads out to other Chapters so as to be able to learn different tactics and battle plans and collect them together for their own reference. They basically go out, watch how the Space Wolves work in a battle, then pick out the bits that seemed to work best and use it in the future.

This new Chapter would kind of be the reverse - they get loaned stuff by the Ordos Xenos, test it out on the battlefield, and then report back on what happened for the greater good of researching new weapons rather than tactics.

That might work - an entire Chapter specially trained for using radical new weapons in major conflicts, using conventional support teams to get the job done when it all goes wrong. Mechanically you'd probably just use Codex: Space Marines and take other Marine Codices as Allies in order to represent the R&D squads that carried your 'experimental weapons'.

Either that, or play a Deathwatch army.
That's probably the most direct way - they are Space Marines who answer to the Ordos Xenos directly, so it wouldn't be a massive leap to suggest that a Radical Inquisitor had approached a small Deathwatch brotherhood and asked them to test out some newly discovered archeotech/artifacts on his behalf.

[GolemsVoice]

But don't DW usually only work in small killteams? I'm not even sure if the DW does have the strength to gather an army without seriously crippling all other efforts.

[Wraith]

Deathwatch do work in teams, usually led by an Inquisitor but occasionally by a Librarian or Captain, and as representatives of both the Inquisition and one of the most sacred of Astartes responsibilities they are allowed to requisition anything they need to get the job done.

I haven't yet seen anywhere that says how big a 'Team' is allowed to be, and some books I've seen have sometimes referred to them as being reasonably large forces. Similarly, there's nothing I've seen that says an acting Deathwatch Commander can't request MORE Deathwatch members being recruited or recalled to service in extremely dire circumstances (or just requisition the nearest Space Marine company for reinforcements).

It's thin, but it's plausible. It'd certainly explain the use of uncommon and xenos weapons in the force and of course - depending on which codex you want to use - it'd be quite possible to create a very small, elite army; Draigowing or something. 30 models in a 2000pt army could easily be interpreted as a couple of Kill Teams working together, for example.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Similarly, there's nothing I've seen that says an acting Deathwatch Commander can't request MORE Deathwatch members being recruited or recalled to service in extremely dire circumstances (or just requisition the nearest Space Marine company for reinforcements).

Deathwatch rarely operate with more than 10 Marines in any given operation. Including Captain, Librarian and an Apothecary.

For reference, in the largest xeno incursion to date, the 3rd War for Armageddon, only 20 Deathwatch Marines were stationed in the entire system.