Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Cheesegear]

Okay, so, since these are audio dramas, nobody is going to get them. And, since it's a Black Library exclusive (i.e; Not in stores), it's probably even less likely that anyone is going to get them.

Grey Angel

Spoiler

Qruze and Cerebrus infiltrate the Dark Angels' base. Specifically, Luthor's bunch who went home while the Lion didn't. Funnily enough, at this point, it's Dorn who is calling the shots, rather than Malcador. But more on that later.

Cerebrus intentionally gets captured and gets interrogated by Luthor. Cerebrus busts out the old 'reverse interrogation' technique, but doesn't really work as well as expected. Luthor then uses psychic mumbo-jumbo and figures out that Cerebrus is Loken.

Loken realises that Luthor is Warp-touched, and is bad news, and notes the similarities between Luthor and Horus, and if Loken hadn't already been through everything with Horus, he could certainly see how somebody could be swayed to follow Luthor. Luthor then leaves, doing the whole "And now you die, but I wont sit around to watch it. Don't escape or anything." ...He does. A Watcher in the Dark helps Loken escape.

Loken gets in a fight with a Dark Angel, and Qruze shows up and shoots the DAngel with a Stalker round. Loken remarks that that was the kind of thing that he really wanted to avoid.

Then Cypher rocks up. Makes a comment about 'those who came before me, and many more after'. Again, indicating that Cypher is probably a title, rather than a person. Although, it may just be that Cypher is the 'last' Cypher. But we'll see how that plays out in the next Codex.

Cypher helps Qruze and Loken escape. With a stupid line at the end saying that Cypher has lost the chance for forgiveness.

Burden of Duty

Spoiler

Garro infiltrates the Phalanx. The Imperial Fists are busy trying to fortify the Solar System, and they don't appear to notice a one-man spacecraft.

Garro makes his way to the Imperial Fists' vault, and opens it. To find every single IF Librarian locked inside. Not only are they not allowed to use their Powers, but they're not even allowed outside. It seems that Dorn has taken the Edict of Nikea pretty seriously.
Mazzak, the Chief Librarian - or at least a very powerful one - says that Garro can't be here, and he needs to leave. Mazzak duels Garro, whilst Garro is holding back, Mazzak also isn't using his powers.

Dorn busts in since the Vault was opened and that clearly raised alarms, to find Garro. He's pissed. Garro remembers the first time that Dorn was mad at him and recalls that that was barely even a tap. And that a 'Dorn Unleashed' would be terrifying.
...This is another reference to The Lightning Tower, where Dorn is afraid of what he could become and he is unsure of who could stop him. And later we find out in Crimson Fist that Dorn and the Imperial Fists' whole personality trait is about shutting down their emotions.

IMO: Whilst it would be great to see Dorn 'Hulk Out', I think it's better that that never gets written since that would ruin it.
Anyway, this is weird; Because in Grey Angel, it was Dorn calling the shots. Now it's back to Malcador. However, it could also mean that two factions of the Inquisition are already forming; Qruze and Cerebrus heading up the Ordo Hereticus and Garro bringing Psykers together to start up the Grey Knights?

Garro says that he's here for Mazzak, and that he's rounding up a bunch of Psykers. Dorn says that exactly what the Edict of Nikea says he's not allowed to do, and Garro argues his case.

[paraphrased]
Dorn: You can't take him. I need him.
Garro: What? Why? You said yourself that you're not using Psykers.
Dorn: I don't know. I just do.
Garro: That's dumb.
Dorn: Fine. Take him.

Mazzak: Do I get a say? I'm not going.
Garro: What? You understand if you come with me, you can leave the Vault, you can use your Powers again and fight the enemy, fight the good fight!?
Mazzak: I know. I'm still not going.
Garro: ...A...W...Is this a joke? Are you serious right now!?
Mazzak: I'm loyal to Dorn. Not to Malcador. Not only are Psykers not allowed to Psyk. But Dorn says he needs me. I don't know when. I don't know why. And when he calls, I'll be there.
Dorn: Booyah!

Mazzak then goes back to the Vault, not allowed to go outside and not allowed to use his powers even though he totally has the option of doing neither of those things.

This is a huge reference and hint to Dorn's role in the Battle for Terra. That when all is lost, Dorn gathers all his Psykers and goes on the offensive and starts smashing Chaos face. And it's another reference to Dorn knowing how to use people, even if he doesn't know why or when.

Mazzak reminds me of Sigismund. In that no matter what, they'll stand by Dorn, even when he doesn't want them to.

Nothing much happens in Grey Angel. A lot of it is Qruze walking around and doing a whole lot of nothing. And a lot more is Cerebrus fighting one Dark Angel. Pretty boring. And we already know who Cerebrus is anyway, kind of lame.

Burden of Duty is a lot of dialogue. But it's good dialogue.

Spoiler

And someone turning down the 'Mission From God' is amazing.

Originally Posted by Wraith

We all know that the wings are not necessarily Emperor-given, but is Sanguinious' gift of prophesy not confirmed? Or is that something separate, and his true gift is that of endless compassion?

Sangunius had the gift of prophecy. Yes. But, given that Daddy wanted nothing to do with the Warp, it's unlikely that Sanguinius' powers are intentional. Like the wings, they're probably another effect of Chaos.

As for the second question...Well, he is Space Jesus. So...Maybe.

[Platinius]

I like to add to the eugenics applied by the Tau on there own people actually works and I also like to add within a caste, there are many varied jobs.
A worker caste can be anything from simple dockworker (though I imagine that heavy lifting is mostly done with/by drones and work armature like Ripley's in Aliens) over trained craftsman to astrophysicist and there is room for advancement for each one up and including to administrator.
And many a job overlaps with the other castes, the aforementioned astrophysicist could just as easily be an air caste, some fire caste need to be pilots to drive/fly their tanks unless they are all exclusively piloted by air caste (which sounds needlessly complicated given the Tau's reputation for efficiency). Are their combat engineers earth or fire caste, I can't say.
Water caste are glib merchants, secretaries, translators and spies but they need technological and/or combat expertise (and you can't just have a highly trained specialist on standby and thus away from the the thing he does best, just because some water caste is to dump to actually read the manual) again the efficiency argument) to make deals and so on.
Even (and especially) Ethereal caste need a comparatively advanced skill level in all the other castes specialties to reign over them.

To summarize, unlike the IoM, being born into a caste is not a one-way ticket or straightjacket. The Tau always try to get a maximum out of their members talents and try to get them into something that fits. It certainly isn't always perfect, but in comparison to most races, this is almost completely out of character of the GrimDarkness of the 41st Millenium where there is only war.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Platinius

To summarize, unlike the IoM, being born into a caste is not a one-way ticket or straightjacket. The Tau always try to get a maximum out of their members talents and try to get them into something that fits. It certainly isn't always perfect, but in comparison to most races, this is almost completely out of character of the GrimDarkness of the 41st Millenium where there is only war.

Eugenics, mind control and miliary expansionism, all as part of a secret plot by another faction?
Looked at right, there's plenty of grimdarkness to be had here.

[GolemsVoice]

Eugenics, mind control and miliary expansionism, all as part of a secret plot by another faction?
Looked at right, there's plenty of grimdarkness to be had here.

The beauty of 40K is that such a society, while probably horrible in real life, is pretty decent in comparison to the other races in 40K.

[kire]

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

The beauty of 40K is that such a society, while probably horrible in real life, is pretty decent in comparison to the other races in 40K.

The Imperium of Man in this setting are bigoted imperialist xenophobic genocidal fanatics! How can they be the good guys?
By comparison.

It's amusing that the "brightest" example in 40k, the Tau, would be mustache twirling bad-guys in almost any other setting.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Wraith

And distribute it, how? Even other Hive Worlds are unable to support their populations even with Agriworld support as well as their own production methods, and Terra is the most overpopulated and securely patrolled of them all.

By transporting it there, duh. Terra is the most important world, other planets might starve but the food for the capital must be found. Always.

Also, note we don't know that much about Solar system. Mercury and Venus could well have been terraformed during Dark Age of Technology, they might have food sources right in the system.

And store it, where? The entire continent of Asia is given over just to house the Imperial Palace; that's 3,000 miles to travel before you're not on ground so sacred that even the Inquisition has to ask permission just to visit.

Um, that's precisely it - The Palace, as well as pretty much every power office on the planet must contain kitchens and freezers. It's only in bad Sci Fi series that we don't see restrooms on screen, they are perfectly natural in Grimdark one

Anyway, the point is, no food = Terra turning into most holy dead world. Since it isn't, and there is no cannibalism in the Imperial Palace or the Administratum, they solved the problem. You think machine maintaining all records in the Imperium wouldn't have noticed their new spiffy office lot can't maintain prescribed ration of personutrients per kilosecond?

And how are these pilgrims unemployed, uprooted, desperate pilgrims going to afford to pay for what is probably the most expensive food in the galaxy?

Simply. They're pilgrims. Add two to Ecclesiarchy who have huge presence on the planet, including dozens of Orders dedicated to improving the lot of citizens, and you'll have answer. Caring about devoted on the most holy of His worlds would be pretty big on their priority list, and seeing how many argi/temple worlds they own...

You're right, there are sources like Agriworlds and such that can get shipped to Earth; for those who can afford it, and those important enough to deserve it.

Which pilgrims are. As are clerks of the Administratum, priests of Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, psykers of Forbidden Fortress, etc. etc. Terra's population supplies hundreds of regiments to both internal defence and IG/IN each decade, process that is clearly sustainable, so...

Then remember that you're in competition with the High Lords of Terra, the Great Fortress of the Inquisition, the Schola Psykana, the Adeptus Custodes and the God-Emperor Himself for the label of 'important'

These get stale frozen pizza. No, seriously, someone found record from 30K the Emperor liked it from his youth, so they try to emulate him

Originally Posted by Platinius

I like to add to the eugenics applied by the Tau on there own people actually works and I also like to add within a caste, there are many varied jobs.
A worker caste can be anything from simple dockworker (though I imagine that heavy lifting is mostly done with/by drones and work armature like Ripley's in Aliens) over trained craftsman to astrophysicist and there is room for advancement for each one up and including to administrator.
And many a job overlaps with the other castes, the aforementioned astrophysicist could just as easily be an air caste, some fire caste need to be pilots to drive/fly their tanks unless they are all exclusively piloted by air caste (which sounds needlessly complicated given the Tau's reputation for efficiency). Are their combat engineers earth or fire caste, I can't say.
Water caste are glib merchants, secretaries, translators and spies but they need technological and/or combat expertise (and you can't just have a highly trained specialist on standby and thus away from the the thing he does best, just because some water caste is to dump to actually read the manual) again the efficiency argument) to make deals and so on.

Um, no?

There is one and only one thing Tau follow. The Greater Good. It dictates what you must do in life to help society - obediently follow your role. Were you born as Fire Caste? Sorry, you won't pilot any flyers, it's all Air Caste. Astrophysicist? Nope, all you will get in life is Pulse Carbine, even if you would be otherwise, say, best baker on the planet. It's not your role. Not following your role is harming Greater Good. Just like in human concept of caste Dharma, upon which GG was based.

Just look at conquered aliens - Vespids? Mind control helmets for Greater Good. These dirty humans? Sterilize for Greater Good, recruit excess to Gue'Vesa regiments, allow select few to reproduce, especially loyal units. Again, Greater Good always comes first, usually by saving precious Tau lives by driving protective screen of auxiliaries around Tau units to minimize losses in only race fully adhering to the concept.

[shadow_archmagi]

Originally Posted by Trixie

There is one and only one thing Tau follow. The Greater Good. It dictates what you must do in life to help society - obediently follow your role. Were you born as Fire Caste? Sorry, you won't pilot any flyers, it's all Air Caste. Astrophysicist? Nope, all you will get in life is Pulse Carbine, even if you would be otherwise, say, best baker on the planet. It's not your role. Not following your role is harming Greater Good. Just like in human concept of caste Dharma, upon which GG was based.

Can you site sources indicating this?

I feel like it's definitely more logical to assume there would be some overlap and a lot of variation. Yes, many Fire Caste people will get pulse carbines, but they'll have to have field medics, field chefs, and field technicians. Someone needs to fix the hammerheads.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

I feel like it's definitely more logical to assume there would be some overlap and a lot of variation. Yes, many Fire Caste people will get pulse carbines, but they'll have to have field medics, field chefs, and field technicians. Someone needs to fix the hammerheads.

"Field medics" are DX-4 drones operated by civilians. Same with technicians, all are Earth Caste, IIRC. At best, Fire Warrior will get cursory training helping him to stabilize the wounded or jury-rig machine, but he is first a warrior. Him being anything else would be anathema except for most special circumstances.

[Carry2]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Eugenics, mind control and miliary expansionism, all as part of a secret plot by another faction?
Looked at right, there's plenty of grimdarkness to be had here.

It depends. The pheremone/mind-control thing has officially been sort-of downplayed by GW, even at the same time as they give their blessing to 'dirtying up' the faction in other ways. I suspect this is the sort of background fluff likely to be retconned in future editions, much like the Illuminati/Sensei/Star-Child fluff for the Emperor. (The Tau frequently get accused of being jarringly at odds with the Grimdark Seriousness of the rest of the setting, but technically so are the Orks. One is serious but not grimdark, while the other is grimdark but not serious. And it will be a cold day in hell before the Orks make an iota of logical sense. *sigh*)

Again, whatever human caste systems may have historically been, among the Tau, they really do correspond to drastic differences in physical tolerances and cognitive aptitudes, to the extent that overlap in qualifications are likely slim-to-nil for many jobs. Besides, air caste members seem to play a vital role in ship-to-ship combat, xeno auxiliaries are valued for their tactical adaptability, and scientists are apparently drawn from both the Earth and Water castes. The Tau, by all appearances, abhor waste of resources, and misapplied talent is a serious waste.

(This is purely speculation, but organised eugenics might be no more inherently repressive for the Tau than settlement and agriculture was for our nomadic ancestors, depending on what their instinctive mating habits are.)

Military expansionism is certainly a key aspect of Tau policy, but by all appearances they're happy enough to leave non-aggressive populations largely to their own devices, and will bend over backwards to afford rivals a chance to negotiate or surrender. Even when it comes to gray areas, such as whether all human worlds count as 'potential aggressors' or not, they tend to take the line that Tau hegemony is the galaxy's single best hope for a sane system of government, and that territorial gains are critical to their long-term survival. And it's hard to prove them wrong.


As for pronouncements that the Tau are secretly some kind of orwellian dystopia: I just don't think we have adequate information on the details of civilian life or their internal political administration to render judgment on the subject. For every report of nasty incidents like sterilising PoWs, Kurtzian commanders or disappearing dissidents, there are laissez-faire policies of multicultural tolerance, rising living standards and popular mandates. For my own part, I'm rather curious about how the Ethereals manage to maintain a functional central government in the absence of serious accountability to the governed (likely explanations ranging from a one-party-plutocracy to more gene tailoring.)

So, yeah. Not neccesarily a good government. Just the least evil by the abysmally low standards of the setting. And that's what makes them interesting.

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by Trixie

There is one and only one thing Tau follow. The Greater Good. It dictates what you must do in life to help society - obediently follow your role. Were you born as Fire Caste? Sorry, you won't pilot any flyers, it's all Air Caste. Astrophysicist? Nope, all you will get in life is Pulse Carbine, even if you would be otherwise, say, best baker on the planet. It's not your role. Not following your role is harming Greater Good. Just like in human concept of caste Dharma, upon which GG was based.

Just look at conquered aliens - Vespids? Mind control helmets for Greater Good. These dirty humans? Sterilize for Greater Good, recruit excess to Gue'Vesa regiments, allow select few to reproduce, especially loyal units. Again, Greater Good always comes first, usually by saving precious Tau lives by driving protective screen of auxiliaries around Tau units to minimize losses in only race fully adhering to the concept.

1: This is... Not entirely correct. First, the Fire Caste does provide pilots for all atmosphere-based flyers and combat vehicles. Because if the Air Caste spend more than a few hours planetside, they get severely ill and die. The Air Caste are the spacefarers of the Tau Empire, perfectly adapted to weak artificial gravity and sterilized atmospheres. They don't do well at anything else. Also, there is way, way more variation in role than that. Experienced Fire Caste members will be assigned to Earth Caste research teams as advisors, because they have hands-on experience with how it will need to be used in the end. Fire Caste pilots and vehicle crews are given a full technical understanding of their equipment, and could perform field repairs if necessary. Yes, you can't leave your Caste, so you'll never see a Fire Caste artist outside of a retirement community, but there is always some overlap.

2: Okay, no. The Vespid mind control hats thing? At best an in-universe rumour, never stated to be true. It's one of a couple things that the Tau might, possibly, maybe be doing that's potentially really bad. On the other hand, the Vespid really do seem like the kind of species that would be all over the Tau Empire, being structured in basically the same way to begin with. The rest of it? Dawn of War, a non-canon source, and only after the planet rebelled, and no, the Tau do not work that way. The Tau do not use expendable meat-shields. If you think you do you're wrong. If Gue'vesa are deployed to a war-zone, the Commander in charge will do everything possible to preserve their lives, because the Tau canonically do not have a societal concept of cannon fodder.

Yeah, you've taken the three or four canonical "Bad things the Tau might maybe have done" and decided that their entire society is that while completely and utterly ignoring the entire rest of the canon.

[Squark]

Do the Tau have retirement communities? I'd think that aging Tau wouldn't want to retire, and would keep on going until they were unfit to do much of anything/a danger to their fellow workers. Obviously, you'd delegate more strenuous jobs to younger, more spry Tau, but in a culture that abhors waste at such a fundamental level, retirement seems like it'd be too stressful for the Tau.

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Squark

Do the Tau have retirement communities? I'd think that aging Tau wouldn't want to retire, and would keep on going until they were unfit to do much of anything/a danger to their fellow workers. Obviously, you'd delegate more strenuous jobs to younger, more spry Tau, but in a culture that abhors waste at such a fundamental level, retirement seems like it'd be too stressful for the Tau.

You fight, and if you get too old to keep fighting, you train the next generation.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Carry2

It depends. The pheremone/mind-control thing has officially been sort-of downplayed by GW, even at the same time as they give their blessing to 'dirtying up' the faction in other ways. I suspect this is the sort of background fluff likely to be retconned in future editions, much like the Illuminati/Sensei/Star-Child fluff for the Emperor.

Well, sure, it might be. But until it actually is retconned, then simply not going further to confirm it doesn't really make a difference to my mind.

(I still kind of like the Star Child concept, too, even though that's more seriously backpedelled from, if not exactly ruled out as far as I'm aware.)

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by Squark

Do the Tau have retirement communities? I'd think that aging Tau wouldn't want to retire, and would keep on going until they were unfit to do much of anything/a danger to their fellow workers. Obviously, you'd delegate more strenuous jobs to younger, more spry Tau, but in a culture that abhors waste at such a fundamental level, retirement seems like it'd be too stressful for the Tau.

Explicitly. In fact, it's one of the few aspects of Tau civilian life that we know for certain, because it's mentioned a couple of times in the first Codex. Aun'shi had actually retired for a little while, for example, and mention of retirement is made as the very end of a Fire Warrior's career path. Tau tend to live to about 50-60 years old, and spend the last five or so retired as a sort of reward for a good, long, productive life.

Currently, the only Tau which we know have outright refused retirement are Aun'va (who is almost 100, making him way, way too old for a Tau) and O'Shovah (Who is closer to 300, which is a source of major consternation to everyone). Now, retirement in the Tau Empire doesn't mean "completely out of the loop". When no other Etherials with the right experience were available Aun'shi came out of retirement to save a world from Orks, and I'd expect that retired 'O level Tau would get regular visits asking for advice from his former underlings and peers, but it's still a position outside of active duty.

[Carry2]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Well, sure, it might be. But until it actually is retconned, then simply not going further to confirm it doesn't really make a difference to my mind.

(I still kind of like the Star Child concept, too, even though that's more seriously backpedelled from, if not exactly ruled out as far as I'm aware.)

Well, I'm fond of any concept that allows unplugging the throne with a clear conscience. I'm not saying this stuff was retconned for being bad/illogical in narrative terms, but because it kind of undermined the main justification for the imperium even existing. (And to be fair, pheremone exposure is probably the single simplest explanation for the Tau's unfaltering social cohesion.)

[Razgriez]

Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV

Explicitly. In fact, it's one of the few aspects of Tau civilian life that we know for certain, because it's mentioned a couple of times in the first Codex. Aun'shi had actually retired for a little while, for example, and mention of retirement is made as the very end of a Fire Warrior's career path. Tau tend to live to about 50-60 years old, and spend the last five or so retired as a sort of reward for a good, long, productive life.

Currently, the only Tau which we know have outright refused retirement are Aun'va (who is almost 100, making him way, way too old for a Tau) and O'Shovah (Who is closer to 300, which is a source of major consternation to everyone). Now, retirement in the Tau Empire doesn't mean "completely out of the loop". When no other Etherials with the right experience were available Aun'shi came out of retirement to save a world from Orks, and I'd expect that retired 'O level Tau would get regular visits asking for advice from his former underlings and peers, but it's still a position outside of active duty.

Two Additional pieces of info/corrections if I may?

-With Aun'Shi: that mission to stand ground against the orks, actually was supposed to be Aun'Shi's final mission if I recall. But then, because of how successful he was, he received more and more request from the other Tau to provide guidance and leadership.

-With Commander Farsight (O'Shovah), they slightly expanded on the age issue. The 4th edition codex notes that the original O'Shovah may have died (from age/battle). And instead, the name, armaments, and suit, are passed on to next most skilled Crisis suit pilot of the Farsight Enclave of each generation.

That said, it's also been left open that the original Farsight is still alive somehow. It is indeed, a plausible one given 40k's lore, and that we know that Inquisitors, Imperial Nobility, and various Imperial Army/Navy heroes have access to Rejuvenation treatments (as well as Cybernetics/Cyborg upgrades). So there is other options and speculation out there.

[Carry2]

And now I've made the mistake of drawing uncomfortable real-world comparisons to an entirely fictional universe.

Again, I'm not saying that the Tau's management style couldn't stand some significant improvement. I'd certainly prefer that they made political decisions through some kind of galactic-senate representative-democracy and had a strictly pacifist philosophy and gave away squig-puppies to space-orphans. And I dunno, maybe in another 5000 years that's exactly what they'll be. Or maybe it'll be more "Aun'va Is Watching You" crossed with Libria. I just kinda get the impression that Tau criticism is often grounded in sentiments that are, to be blunt, rather anthropocentric, and that much of their less pleasant policies are grounded in an understandable aversion to being eaten by Tyranids.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV

1: This is... Not entirely correct. First, the Fire Caste does provide pilots for all atmosphere-based flyers and combat vehicles. Because if the Air Caste spend more than a few hours planetside, they get severely ill and die.

From what I saw sourcebooks, artificial gravity mitigates that to huge extent - just look at Taros campaign, Imperial starfighters fought Tau Air caste pilots daily that pretty much had to be planet based, as Imperium had total control of space.

As for flyers, I never saw Fire Warriors operating true flyer. At best they have Piranha or Hammerhead grav vehicles, do you have any source with them piloting true aircraft?

Experienced Fire Caste members will be assigned to Earth Caste research teams as advisors, because they have hands-on experience with how it will need to be used in the end.

Advisors/End user focus group, but they are still warriors that were asked to lend their opinion, they never design anything.

Fire Caste pilots and vehicle crews are given a full technical understanding of their equipment, and could perform field repairs if necessary.

Um... At best, they crew one of three levels of repair depots (as used by modern armies, unit, tactical, strategical - being attached to larger independent unit, big depot behind front lines, or repair yard back in the original factory. FW will at best crew field unit repair depot, something I termed as jury-rigging, all else is being done by Earth Caste).

2: Okay, no. The Vespid mind control hats thing? At best an in-universe rumour, never stated to be true.

Except for every strain leader possessing Tau-made hat that made them instantly adopt Greater Good wholesale?

The rest of it? Dawn of War, a non-canon source, and only after the planet rebelled, and no, the Tau do not work that way.

Nope. In DoW, planet did not rebel, it all was small resistance from remnants of IG units, planet stayed loyal. Not that it matters, as it was recently confirmed in Deathwatch. Tau sterilization isn't DoW only anymore.

The Tau do not use expendable meat-shields. If you think you do you're wrong. If Gue'vesa are deployed to a war-zone, the Commander in charge will do everything possible to preserve their lives, because the Tau canonically do not have a societal concept of cannon fodder.

No?

Then why always when you read about Tau first strike, units sent somewhere to feint, scouts, etc. roles where forces are likely to be expendable it pretty much always are Kroot/Vespid/Humans/Etc.? I honestly never saw any source where Tau commander sent Tau units first if he had anything else on hand that could reduce Tau casualties.

True, they would usually send drones before wasting allies, but when drones are gone, it's not Tau that will be sent next.

Yeah, you've taken the three or four canonical "Bad things the Tau might maybe have done" and decided that their entire society is that while completely and utterly ignoring the entire rest of the canon.

*shrug* all these things are canon. I never saw anything stating Tau are good or that their caste practices aren't far worse than human ones that would be canon. Can you maybe provide some sources humans (excluding lowest strata in IoM) consider Tau to be genuinely better than humanity's best efforts?

Human caste system was hell for these unfortunate to be born in the lowest classes - but at least in it, you could have converted to one of three religious-philosophical systems that didn't gave a damn about castes and potentially offered you a chance to be something more. With Tau? Nope, it's Greater Good or disappearance into reeducation center.

[bluntpencil]

Note that the Tau castes, Ethereal caste excepted, are not higher or lower than one another. They have parity, but are expected to do different jobs. The Air Caste is not considered to be better than the Earth Caste, for example.

[Squark]

The first Tau forces the Ultramarines encounter in Courage and Honor are Pathfinders- Then again, the invasion here called for stealth, as the invasion was supposed to be a fallback plan if the planetary governor didn't agree to join them.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV

1: This is... Not entirely correct. First, the Fire Caste does provide pilots for all atmosphere-based flyers and combat vehicles. Because if the Air Caste spend more than a few hours planetside, they get severely ill and die. The Air Caste are the spacefarers of the Tau Empire, perfectly adapted to weak artificial gravity and sterilized atmospheres. They don't do well at anything else.

Nope- Aeronautica Imperialis's Typha IV campaign book shows a detailed picture of an air caste Barracuda (plane) pilot.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Trixie

Then why always when you read about Tau first strike, units sent somewhere to feint, scouts, etc. roles where forces are likely to be expendable it pretty much always are Kroot/Vespid/Humans/Etc.? I honestly never saw any source where Tau commander sent Tau units first if he had anything else on hand that could reduce Tau casualties.

True, they would usually send drones before wasting allies, but when drones are gone, it's not Tau that will be sent next.

All under the greater good are equal, but some are more equal than others.[/animalfarm]

They don't use cannon fodder, and the Tau Commander will try to minimize the casualties of his auxiliaries, because wasting resources is counterproductive to the Greater Good. But there's also the fact that the Tau recruit so many specialist auxiliaries precisely so they'll always have a 'first line' that's perfect for the task at hand and not need to risk Tau lives right off the bat.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Note that the Tau castes, Ethereal caste excepted, are not higher or lower than one another. They have parity, but are expected to do different jobs. The Air Caste is not considered to be better than the Earth Caste, for example.

Theoretically, yes. However, someone will still write holonovels read by millions (if Greater Good actually allows anything but token, productive recreation...) - probably from Water Caste. You were born in Earth Caste? Tough luck, even if you were better at it, you'll oversee street-sweeping drones instead. There is reason any sort or caste/servitude/whatever system usually ended up with revolt, even when enforced by your religion.

The first Tau forces the Ultramarines encounter in Courage and Honor are Pathfinders- Then again, the invasion here called for stealth, as the invasion was supposed to be a fallback plan if the planetary governor didn't agree to join them.

I read that book a long while ago, but didn't it have that red-maned Kroot and his buddies that were somehow always first to see any action and suffer first losses?

The whole modus operandi of Pathfinders is to stay hidden and call in artillery strikes, if there is anyone doing reconnaissance in force suffering losses it's the Kroot/Vespids.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Trixie

Theoretically, yes. However, someone will still write holonovels read by millions (if Greater Good actually allows anything but token, productive recreation...) - probably from Water Caste. You were born in Earth Caste? Tough luck, even if you were better at it, you'll oversee street-sweeping drones instead. There is reason any sort or caste/servitude/whatever system usually ended up with revolt, even when enforced by your religion.

Though if you're in the Earth Caste and you would have an aptitude for writing holonovels, you'd probably be tasked with, I dunno, writing technical manuals or something else that draws on your innate talents while still keeping you within the role of your caste. Anything else would be inefficient.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Aren't Tau biology and caste connected? Imagine telling a (non-Oddboy) Ork it could only fight, and spend the rest of it's life fighting. It wouldn't feel oppressed at all.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah

Aren't Tau biology and caste connected? Imagine telling a (non-Oddboy) Ork it could only fight, and spend the rest of it's life fighting. It wouldn't feel oppressed at all.

More via selective breeding and eugenics than the sort of innate genetics that Orks have.

[Carry2]

Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah

Aren't Tau biology and caste connected? Imagine telling a (non-Oddboy) Ork it could only fight, and spend the rest of it's life fighting. It wouldn't feel oppressed at all.

Exactly. This is what I've been saying. The Ork wouldn't really understand why this even requires discussion, and in all probability neither do the Tau.

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

More via selective breeding and eugenics than the sort of innate genetics that Orks have.

The point to eugenics is to induce innate genetic differences.

I mean, this whole discussion is a bit like an Air Caste member saying-
"Oh, those poor, poor gue'vesa. They won't even allow most of 'em to take 6 Gs when they do a barrel roll."
"Wouldn't 6Gs make a typical human black out?"
"And imagine how miserable that makes them feel!"

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Carry2

Exactly. This is what I've been saying. In fact, the Ork wouldn't really understand why this even requires discussion.

The point to eugenics is that it (ostensibly) creates innate genetic differences.

I mean, this whole discussion is a bit like an Air Caste member saying-
"Oh, those poor, poor gue'vesa. They won't even allow most of 'em to take 6 Gs when they do a barrel roll."
"Wouldn't 6Gs make a typical human black out?"
"And imagine how miserable that makes them feel!"

I guess I meant more that an Oddboy/Ork always was and would always be an Oddboy/Ork, it couldn't be changed. Air Caste presumably didn't start the way they are now, and you could theoretically breed them back to where they were...but why would you when you've got the Earth and Fire castes already able to do that job?

[Carry2]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

I guess I meant more that an Oddboy/Ork always was and would always be an Oddboy/Ork, it couldn't be changed. Air Caste presumably didn't start the way they are now, and you could theoretically breed them back to where they were...but why would you when you've got the Earth and Fire castes already able to do that job?

Well, in theory you *could* also breed Orks for particular qualities, and given that the species is supposed to be rife with mutation, the strange thing is their genome has remained so stable for millions of years. But in principle, DNA is DNA, and could be altered just as easily (or not) in either case.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Though if you're in the Earth Caste and you would have an aptitude for writing holonovels, you'd probably be tasked with, I dunno, writing technical manuals or something else that draws on your innate talents while still keeping you within the role of your caste. Anything else would be inefficient.

Actually, best manuals are written in terse, dry, to the point prose using as few and as clear words as possible. Any attempt at prettifying it is what's inefficient

Case in point - WH40K rules where prettifying rules and using thesaurus leads to flamewars if 'may' deep strike is the same as 'might' deep strike and if Zandrekh is total cheese in consequence or not

Originally Posted by Carry2

Exactly. This is what I've been saying. The Ork wouldn't really understand why this even requires discussion, and in all probability neither do the Tau.

If the high point of your civilization needs to be defended by equating them to orks it should make you stop and consider if it really is that good

I mean, this whole discussion is a bit like an Air Caste member saying-
"Oh, those poor, poor gue'vesa. They won't even allow most of 'em to take 6 Gs when they do a barrel roll."
"Wouldn't 6Gs make a typical human black out?"
"And imagine how miserable that makes them feel!"

Yeah, I'd expect intelligent being that is good at flying but nevertheless wants to be, say, scuba diving explorer, to be unhappy to learn it can only fly. Or, in even more extreme FC case, that your 'retirement' will likely take form of lifetime of killing until first bolter shell, earthshaker projectile or gauss ray comes your way, unless it literally is engineered bio-robot like ork.

I mean, people in old Russian Empire (where draft to military was 20 year long) often ripped all teeth or asked to have all four limbs broken to become ineligible for draft, and that was in state that fought maybe two wars per half century. Moreover, it was only stable job and free education available back then, yet people tried everything to get out of that "prison".