Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Platinius

I just couldn't help it

Spoiler

"I am Spartacus Alpharius!"
"No, I am Alpharius"

That's the idea.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

So did most of the Primarchs.
Anyway, I did some research on the Timeline of the Primarchs quite some time back but I can't find the post. My Search-Fu is pretty bad. Usually other forumites have done it for me.

The Great Crusade only lasted 200 years.

And, according to ye olde Codex Imperialis (page 20)

Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal and the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years.

Raising some interesting timeline questions.

Maybe Dorn was the last primarch recorded as "dying" but Vulkan was sighted some 3000 years after the heresy- possibly giving the Salamanders their "quest" for his artifacts?

[lord_khaine]

Whats even more funny is that the last Primach only lived for 1400 years, while Dante is as i recall over 2000?

[hamishspence]

His age is never explicitly given, but in some sources he's been Chapter Master for over 1100 years (Bloodquest, 5E Blood Angels codex).

[Wraith]

Just for fun, here's a little perspective in the issue of Dante's age.....

Pedro Kantor of the Crimson Fists was a Space Marine for about 200 years before coming Chapter Master; he's now approximately 350 years old.

Helbrecht of the Black Templars was a Neophyte in 833.M41 and ascended to become High Marshal in 989.M41, apparently making him incredibly young even as a Space Marine in general, let alone as Master (less than 170 in total!)

Marneus Calgar was Chapter Master in 762.M41. The Ultramarines' Brother-Sergeant Tellion has seen 3 Chapter Masters pass under his watch in 300 years of service and Chaplain Cassius (who has been a Marine for 400 years) testifies that Calgar is "young" in comparison to him.
This suggests that Calgar has probably been Chapter Master for 250-ish years and was a Marine for less than 100 years before that. His predecessors, on the other hand, couldn't have been Chapter Master for more than 50 years, otherwise Tellion wouldn't have known HIS predecessor, so he was a particularly unlucky example.

Kaldor Draigo was described as "freshly-ennobled" when he is first mentioned in 799.M41, and became Supreme Grand Master in 901.M41. Warp-related gimmicks aside, that means that he was a fully-fledged Marine for at least 102 years before his ascention, up until 999.M41 when he disappeared. He'd be about 210-215 years old, less than 100 of which as "Chapter Master".

Azrael of the Dark Angels doesn't have a precise date of ascention to his post, but in 897.M41 the Chapter was led by Master Bekenel. So, Azrael has been at the post for around about 105 years, if not less.

Tu'Shan of the Salamanders hasn't had his birth/recruitment dates mentioned as far as I know, but since he was promoted just prior to the Second War for Armageddon he has been Chapter Master for about 70 years.

Carab Culln of the Red Scorpions became Chapter Master "during the Badab War" (901.M41-912.M41, so about 95 years to date), after a "quick" ascention from Scout to 1st Company Captain. Make of that what you will.

Gabriel Seth of the Flesh Tearers has been Chapter Master for "over 100 years", and his methods of recruitment and conduct are somewhat revolutionary. It would be reasonable to presume that, between the Black Rage and the Flesh Tearers direct and aggressive tactics, the turn-over rate among Chapter Masters before Seth was comparably high, so he might not physically be particularly old.... But that is definitely a presumption.

Lord Magyar of the Mortifactors is estimated to be over 700 years old, though there's no record of how long he has been Chapter Master. Presumably over 400 years, otherwise old guys like Cassius and Tellion (and, unlike Dante, not in a position of particular stoicism and thus inclined to talk about such things) would remember it within their lifetime.
Incidentally, at such a grand age he is described as virtually decrepid in his actions. Though amazingly competant and effective, he barely moves at anything faster than walking pace - which puts Dante's high-speed Jump Pack antics at twice Magyar's age in a whole new light.

Kathal of the Sons of Malice is over 1,000 years old, though has only been Chapter Master since the beginning of the Thirteenth Black Crusade at the earliest (999.M41).

Meanwhile, Captain Lysander of the Imperial Fists - lost in the Warp for 1,000 years, was Captain of the 1st Company for 200 years, and noted as having a "long career" even before that - "cannot remember a time when Dante was not master of the Blood Angels."

So forget 1,100 years. Dante might actually have been around for more than 1,400. The guy is badass.

[hamishspence]

That said, in the 2nd ed Angels of Death book, there's a sergeant called Cleutin who:

"is so old that it is said that he was the Sergeant in charge of Commander Dante's Scout squad when Dante joined the chapter. Whatever the truth of this, there is no doubting that Cleutin is a doughty and experienced warrior, and a worthy guardian of the shroud." C:AoD

I'm told he's mentioned in the PDF 4E Blood Angel codex.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

I'm told he's mentioned in the PDF 4E Blood Angel codex.

He's in the 2nd Edition book for sure, but I couldn't find him in my copy of the 4th Ed. Admittedly I only speed-read through it, but I'm fairly sure he's out of the canon as anything other than a historical figure.

[hamishspence]

I'm pretty sure he wasn't in it as a character- only as a passing veiled reference if at all- it was mentioned in a B&C thread discussing oldest marines.

[Wraith]

I know, it was the fluff pieces that I read, and couldn't find him.

Like I said, I wasn't looking too hard, but at best it's an incredibly fleeting reference.

[Squark]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

Whats even more funny is that the last Primach only lived for 1400 years, while Dante is as i recall over 2000?

Well... Blood Angels are supposed to be long lived for marines as I recall, so it's possible Sanguinus, if he hadn't been killed by Horus, might have lived for several thousand years.

[Maquise]

Quick question: how would Black Templars and Grey Knights interact?

[iyaerP]

I honestly don't know enough to say in this case. I know that the BTs are supposed to hate witches, witchery, and anything witch related, but they are also THE MOST ZEALOUS chapter of marines in the entire imperium, and would probably not make an issue of the GKs being all psychers because they are also basically The Inquisition: SPACE MARINE edition. =][=

As for the GKs taking issue with the Templars? I see no reason they would.

However, I am going to put out as a disclaimer that I have 0 first hand GK fluff knowledge and only Damnation crusade for first hand Templars knowledge. Everything else is hearsay from here and other internets. I am going to deferr this one to the wisdom of Cheesegear.

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by Maquise

Quick question: how would Black Templars and Grey Knights interact?

According to the old fluff, the Grey Knights are the only Psykers that the Black Templars consider 'pure' enough to not be an abomination against the Emperor, because none of them have ever fallen to Chaos. As such Templars are perfectly happy to work alongside Grey Knights, and consider it something of an honour to meet one of the Emperor's holiest warriors, though they generally tend to avoid any sort of contact with the Inquisition because of their blatant disregard for anything approximating Codex organization. In the reverse case, the Grey Knights tend to see Templars the same way they see every other Space Marine; valiant and honourable defenders of the Imperium, but not a Grey Knight and therefore a potential weak link that isn't to be trusted more than necessary.

By the new fluff, where the Knights are super-secret-agents and everybody who sees one gets executed, I have no idea.

[Maquise]

So, on a related note, how different are the current Grey Knights from their portrayal in the Grey Knights Omnibus? I personally quite liked those stories (Grey Knights, Dark Adeptus and Hammer of Daemons).

[Sheep Overlord]

This is a bit away from the current focus, but where would I find information on current Cadian regiments and numbers, and on their typical unit compositions? I need to name my new army but I don't want to take the name or number of an existing group. Besides that, I just find the Guard to be particularly interesting.

In fact, general information on Cadians would probably be good to have as well - do they tend to favor armored companies or blocks of infantry? And, more to the point for my army, how likely are they to have a regiment devoted specifically to urban warfare or night-fighting?

[Newman]

Being Spess Mehreen for over a millenium? In a galaxy that's perpetually at war?

Don't they grow weary and tired and depressed with all the stagnation?

[GolemsVoice]

I've heard some do, and that's what they have chaplains for, but well, fighting is all they're ever designed for, I guess most SM simply can't imagine doing anything else.

In fact, general information on Cadians would probably be good to have as well - do they tend to favor armored companies or blocks of infantry? And, more to the point for my army, how likely are they to have a regiment devoted specifically to urban warfare or night-fighting?

The Munitorum Manual is an ingame description of general Munitorum practice, exemplified by a Cadian regiment, you could read up there, it has some sections on organization and such.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Maquise

So, on a related note, how different are the current Grey Knights from their portrayal in the Grey Knights Omnibus? I personally quite liked those stories (Grey Knights, Dark Adeptus and Hammer of Daemons).

They've generally gotten more ruthless (if that's possible) being willing to sacrifice the innocent if it will create a ward against the daemonic.

Ben Counter's latest Grey Knights short story (Sacrifice, in Victories of the Space Marines) hints at this.

They also seem to have alliances with various alien races to get anti-Chaos materials. Interestingly, it would appear that at one point, these included the Necrons, with them having "tesseract labyrinths" to imprison daemons, in the fluff, that appeared in the Necron Codex as Necron wargear items.

[iyaerP]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

They've generally gotten more ruthless (if that's possible) being willing to sacrifice the innocent if it will create a ward against the daemonic.

Ben Counter's latest Grey Knights short story (Sacrifice, in Victories of the Space Marines) hints at this.

They also seem to have alliances with various alien races to get anti-Chaos materials. Interestingly, it would appear that at one point, these included the Necrons, with them having "tesseract labyrinths" to imprison daemons, in the fluff, that appeared in the Necron Codex as Necron wargear items.

Isn't that just on the ordo xenos inquisitor? For whom it would make perfect sense to have said item. What doesn't make sense is why ordo xenos and hereticus inquisitors are in the Grey Knight army.

[Borgh]

Mostly because the ordos have been a formality for a while now. As the Eisenhorn and Czevak books have shown it always turns out to be chaos in the end and then the GK show up.
Xenos: So the xeno artifact started glowing and a thousand screaming deamons poured into reality?
Hereticus: So that witch you tried to burn recruited the voices in his head?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Borgh

Mostly because the ordos have been a formality for a while now. As the Eisenhorn and Czevak books have shown it always turns out to be chaos in the end

And the Cain books say it's always Necrons in the end. Or Tyranids. But mostly Necrons.

[iyaerP]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

And the Cain books say it's always Necrons in the end. Or Tyranids. But mostly Necrons.

To be fair, having a book series that actually makes the 'crons out to be a terrifying unstoppable force is a GOOD thing. Too often they are just elite cannon fodder for the protagonists.

[The Glyphstone]

Makes you wonder how Mitchell will handle NewCrons, if he decides to acknowledge them at all.

[iyaerP]

What's his next book going to be anyway, do we even know? Because for the most part, they have been in chronological order, but the latest one went way back to Cain's service with the Space Marines.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by iyaerP

What's his next book going to be anyway, do we even know? Because for the most part, they have been in chronological order

That's just it, and why I now hate Cain. We've seen Cain in 999.M41, there will be no stories set after that, because 40K stories don't work that way. Every book Cain is in, from now on, he'll live through and be totally fine because he survives the 13th Black Crusade.

[Gauntlet]

I thought we already knew he wasn't going to get taken down in any of them since they are his memoirs, so he couldn't write them if he got killed in action? ¬.- They would have to be written from a different perspective.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Gauntlet

I thought we already knew he wasn't going to get taken down in any of them since they are his memoirs, so he couldn't write them if he got killed in action? ¬.- They would have to be written from a different perspective.

That too.

[iyaerP]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

That's just it, and why I now hate Cain. We've seen Cain in 999.M41, there will be no stories set after that, because 40K stories don't work that way. Every book Cain is in, from now on, he'll live through and be totally fine because he survives the 13th Black Crusade.

Except that we knew from the very first page of the very first book that survives to retirement and a ripe old age.

The only spoilery thing for me is that he implied early on that Jurgen had died at some point, and I had eagerly looked forward (in a morbid kind of way) to the inevitable heroic sacrafice of Jurgen and seeing how that played out, except we saw in Cain's Last Stand that that got retconned out apparently, and Jurgen was just as alive, well, and plot armour-providing as ever.

[Tome]

Originally Posted by iyaerP

Isn't that just on the ordo xenos inquisitor? For whom it would make perfect sense to have said item.

Nah, they're explicitly mentioned as having a bunch of Tesseract Labyrinths back on Titan that they use to imprison things they can't destroy.

[lord_khaine]

Makes you wonder how Mitchell will handle NewCrons, if he decides to acknowledge them at all.

Well, luckily it wont be a issue for him, since there are several different tomb worlds, who each behave differently.

One of them are even behaving like the old Necrons due to a serious accident.