Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Maquis

Quick question: how would Black Templars and Grey Knights interact?

Daedalus pretty much hit it on the head - the only Space Marines who are allowed to know anything about the Grey Knights are the Exorcist Chapter, who freely give up their most talented recruits to the GK's as potential neophytes.
Everyone else, including the mighty Ultramarines and other large Founding Legions, are kept entirely in the dark by order of the Emperor himself.

The implication being that there is no interaction between the Black Templars and the Grey Knights - the former does not know that the latter exists, let alone what they are capable of.
Conversely, if the BT's ever did find out about it, the GK's and the Inquisition have the authority to kill every BT involved and then disappear before anyone could ask any questions regardless of the BT's reactions.

Although, we can make an educated guess, given their actions towards other unusually organised Chapters, that the Black Templars would probably declare a massive Crusade against the Grey Knights for what they perceive as massively heretical activities, and as the Grey Knights aren't predisposed towards explaining themselves to anyone outside their own Ordo....

.....By and large, this sort of thing gets filed under "It's not going to happen, because that sort of thing would destroy the Imperium" and isn't talked about.

Originally Posted by Maquise

So, on a related note, how different are the current Grey Knights from their portrayal in the Grey Knights Omnibus? I personally quite liked those stories (Grey Knights, Dark Adeptus and Hammer of Daemons).

Grey Knights were originally secretive, but most Imperial Forces seemed to know of their existence as an incredibly powerful, super-elite Space Marine Chapter, if nothing else about them.

Now they are an utter X-File, with the authority (and, apparently, physical strength) to mindwipe companies of other Space Marines and to commit genocide on 'Guard regiments who have seen them in action.

Grey Knights were originally powerful psykers, who had abilities focused towards making themselves faster, stronger and spiritually reinforced against Daemonic taint, and to banishing Daemons back to the Warp.

Now they are multipurpose psykers and are also Sorcerers who use everything from the same Vortex Of Doom-style powers available to all other Space Marines, to sacrificing 'pure' Imperial citizens in order to begin Blood Rituals in order to fight against Khornate Daemons.

So.... Yes. Very different.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Daedalus pretty much hit it on the head - the only Space Marines who are allowed to know anything about the Grey Knights are the Exorcist Chapter, who freely give up their most talented recruits to the GK's as potential neophytes.
Everyone else, including the mighty Ultramarines and other large Founding Legions, are kept entirely in the dark by order of the Emperor himself.

The implication being that there is no interaction between the Black Templars and the Grey Knights - the former does not know that the latter exists, let alone what they are capable of.

Some chapters (the Space Wolves, the Blood Angels) have fought beside the Grey Knights- but with their warriors being mindwiped afterward by special agreement (at least, in the case of the Blood Angels).

So- while much of the higher echelons of the Imperial Military don't know about them, a small proportion do.

[Razgriez]

Well.... not exactly.

The way I've seen it, if you go by this idea that "The Grey Knights are so super secret, that if you see them, they can kill you" is a bit silly, when you consider that in fluff, they are not exactly kept incredibly secret from other races.

Chaos obviously knows them, Because that's who GK fight the most. Also, having your Current Chapter Master wandering the Warp, only to pop in, say "Hi, how's the chapter doing? Good? Oh there's a war here? Ok let's banish some demons" every few centuries, means that I'm sure most Chaos Demons know about them by now.

It's probably fair to say, that several Alien races know them. Eldar definitely know some info about them. Tau, not so much (Having Zero psykers, who, for the most part, aren't dealing with a significant chance of Demonic Incursion, probably helps). Orks probably look at them, as like any other Space Marine force, just rather shiny looking, and a puzzled confusion when weird things start happening all over the battle field. At which point, it goes from "It's a Space Marine!" to: "It's one of dem' posh zoggin' Space marine Weird Boyz!" It's hinted at that the GK and Inquisition has worked with/Stolen from other, less known/unknown alien races for some tech. Though, this being 40k, and depending on who was handling the trade, this could range anywhere between a simple Business like transaction/trade, all the way to "Thanks for the tech, xenos. Here, have an Exterminatus".

We know some, if not all Space Marine Chapters, at least those in high rank (I.E. Chapter Masters) known about them. Obviously, there may be a few exceptions (Black Templars, are indeed, a good question). Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves knows about them because looking at the lore, he was the one who called for aid from the Grey Knights to help out during the first war for Armageddon. So it's probably safe to presume, that overall, most Chapter masters know about them, in case they have to step back and go "Whoa.. ok, we may need some extra help on this one"

And we know that in some cases, Imperial Guard Regiments might be mind blanked if they served well and held loyal through out the battle. (Though it's also indicated, that not every single one survives the process, though the reasons can vary to suspected taint/resistant to the process, to unfortunate accident, caused by the stress/pain/etc of the process.)

The "Forced labor concentration camps/Execution/Mind blank" part, looks more like it's done out of "You have seen too many warp-spawned horrors, it's for your own good" due to concern for corruption or taint. Not "You have seen us, and we can not let you live in danger of us being known."

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

So- while much of the higher echelons of the Imperial Military don't know about them, a small proportion do.

A very good point. I would, however, wonder if it was more a case of them knowing of the Grey Knights, rather than knowing anything about them. It wouldn't be beyond the plausibility of the 40k setting if it were just a case of each Chapter Master being told "By the way, you know if you ever come across a lot of Daemons all in one place? Give these guys a call. Don't ask any questions, but trust us - they're on your side, and they know what they're doing."

Originally Posted by Razgriez

The way I've seen it, if you go by this idea that "The Grey Knights are so super secret, that if you see them, they can kill you" is a bit silly, when you consider that in fluff, they are not exactly kept incredibly secret from other races.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's silly. But apparently that really is what they do, canonically, to most people who see them in action and aren't other Space Marines. (Page 13 of Codex: Grey Knights states it in detail) *shrugs*

Chaos obviously knows them, Because that's who GK fight the most.

It might be more accurate to say that Chaos knows of them. They'll probably recognise the Loyalist Marines with silver armour and some seriously neat toys as something best avoided, but as to actually who they are and what their precise methods or mission statement might be? Probably not, especially given that a lot of Chaos intelligence is gathered through corruption and assimilation; no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos, and no one else knows enough about the Grey Knights to be of much use.

It's probably fair to say, that several Alien races know them. Eldar definitely know some info about them.

I thought it was the Ordos Xenos that had all the dealings with the other races, procuring technology and information on the Grey Knights' behalf?
By all means, please prove me wrong, but I cannot think of anything in the Codex or other lore that says that the Grey Knights have direct diplomatic dealings with anyone other than the Inquisition. Otherwise, what the Eldar know about Grey Knights probably wouldn't be much more than a vague outline?

Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves knows about them because looking at the lore, he was the one who called for aid from the Grey Knights to help out during the first war for Armageddon.

This bit in particular is contradictory that made me think that NO-ONE actually knows much about them, other than they exist and can offer aid in dire circumstances. Codex:GK's has a passage about the treatment of Imperial Forces who witness them in action, which says:

[While the Imperial Guardsmen are executed,] Space Marines are too valuable a commodity to wilfully be cast aside, and so are instead subjected to a more time-consuming, but markedly safer, mind-wipe process. Most go willingly, readily making a sacrifice of self so that they might continue to serve the Emperor. Those few who resist share the fate of the Imperial Guardsmen. Once again, there are exceptions, but only those very few Chapters in which the Inquisition has complete trust (or at least as close to complete trust as an organisation such as the Inquisition can permit....)

Page 13 again. See where I'm coming from? While Logan Grimnir might have the authority (or even just raw charisma) to ask the Inquisition to send someone to help him, the bolded bit - despite the lore about the War for Armageddon - absolutely does not describe the Space Wolves!

The "Forced labor concentration camps/Execution/Mind blank" part, looks more like it's done out of "You have seen too many warp-spawned horrors, it's for your own good" due to concern for corruption or taint.

Officially yes, but it's implied that the Inquisition has it's own, ulterior reasons as well (if one can believe such shocking accusaions! )

[Bouregard]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Officially yes, but it's implied that the Inquisition has it's own, ulterior reasons as well (if one can believe such shocking accusaions! )

You know all those new servitors need bodies too...

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Page 13 again. See where I'm coming from? While Logan Grimnir might have the authority (or even just raw charisma) to ask the Inquisition to send someone to help him, the bolded bit - despite the lore about the War for Armageddon - absolutely does not describe the Space Wolves!

The Inquisition, in fact, asked Logan for help during the 13th Crusade, where he once again commanded - or directed - Grey Knights for the second time. Where he was named Lord Solar - again!

"Despite the lore for Armageddon." Well, no. You can't just remove it. Because it happened. True story.

And it's not so much the Inquisition that hates the Space Wolves, that's not even it at all. It's Logan that hates the High Lords, or the Adeptus Terra. The Inquisition doesn't have a whole lot to do with it except as agents of Terra.
The Space Wolves and Terra were best friends until Logan.

[Razgriez]

On the Eldar issue, don't forget, there's a score of Purifiers, who were placed on the remains of Craftworld Malan'tai after clensing it of a Slaneesh Greater Demon on a "All the Spirit stones you eat Buffet" after Malan'tai got wrecked by some Tyranids. And their job is to remain on board, guarding it, until another Eldar Craftworld is in range to recover the remaining spirit stones. (Story given on Page 14)

Plus, surely the Eldar would sense some sort of psyker ability from the Grey Knights? And in the other cases, of gaining Xenos tech from other races. Yes, I'm sure Ordo Xenos Inqusitors probably do the majority of the work. That's not to say there's a chance a few Grey Knights might possibly be with them, wanting to know about technology they might be using soon.

With Chaos, we know that several Greater Demons, have fought and been banished multiple times by the Grey Knights, and there are rivalries between some of them, Brother Captain Stern vs. M'Kachen for example. And the ones who have fought Lord Kaldor Draigo.

Also on Page 14 of the GK codex, is the Raxos Civil War, where Civilians were being evacuated off planet, and covered by the Grey Knights, to assist in escaping.... well they almost, up until Stern realizes that their target, had managed to sneak on board one of the evacuation shuttles, and were forced to destroy all of them to prevent the Changeling from escaping.

That's not to say that there are secrets about the Grey Knights that they would kill someone to protect. Indeed, I'm sure to the casual observer, they are just, a rather unique looking Space Marine force. And yes, the GK, and the Inquisition, would completely wipe out the planet's populace and defenders, if they deem it better than to risk Chaos corrupting them anytime soon. It's been seen on Armageddon, as well as Tarsis (which happened at least once, possibly twice after the end of the game/book) in the Dawn of War Series.

[Maquise]

Originally Posted by Wraith

It might be more accurate to say that Chaos knows of them. They'll probably recognise the Loyalist Marines with silver armour and some seriously neat toys as something best avoided, but as to actually who they are and what their precise methods or mission statement might be? Probably not, especially given that a lot of Chaos intelligence is gathered through corruption and assimilation; no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos, and no one else knows enough about the Grey Knights to be of much use.

Originally Posted by Hammer of Daemons

[Chaos Lord] Venalitor snapped his fingers and a scaephylyd slave master scurried up, cradling the shoulder pad from a suit of Space Marine power armor in its front legs. Venalitor took the shoulder pad and held it up for Lord Ebondrake to see the device emblazoned across it. The ceramite was deeply carved with devotional prayers in High Gothic, and it bore the symbol of a sword thrust through an open book.
'A Grey Knight,' said Ebondrake.
'Two Grey Knights,' replied Venalitor. He looked purposefully at Arguthrax. 'Daemon hunters.'

At least some members of Chaos know who the Grey Knights are and what their purpose is.

[Ailurus]

Originally Posted by Wraith

This bit in particular is contradictory that made me think that NO-ONE actually knows much about them, other than they exist and can offer aid in dire circumstances. Codex:GK's has a passage about the treatment of Imperial Forces who witness them in action, which says:

Page 13 again. See where I'm coming from? While Logan Grimnir might have the authority (or even just raw charisma) to ask the Inquisition to send someone to help him, the bolded bit - despite the lore about the War for Armageddon - absolutely does not describe the Space Wolves!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the First War of Armageddon one of the main reasons why Logan started not liking the Inquisition, when the orders came down to execute every single Guardsman on the planet after the war was over?

As Cheesegear said, no reason to think the Space Wolves didn't get along with Terra beforehand, so I can't see any reason why Logan wouldn't call for the Grey Knights to get rid of a Daemon Prince (if he knew of their existence) After the 'cleanup' I can see him not wanting to, but not before.

[hamishspence]

Anyone want to discuss the new Ciaphas Cain novel The Last Ditch?

Among other things, it tends to support the notion that Tyranids have been afflicting the galaxy for a very long time- with a ship that crash landed on a planet long before the earliest previously mentioned Hive Fleets.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Anyone want to discuss the new Ciaphas Cain novel The Last Ditch?

Among other things, it tends to support the notion that Tyranids have been afflicting the galaxy for a very long time- with a ship that crash landed on a planet long before the earliest previously mentioned Hive Fleets.

I thought the genestealers were the earliest recorded Hive Fleet splinter (post retcon anyway)? Earliest encounter of them was M35 according to the Lexicanum, unless the new novel predates that appearance.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Among other things, it tends to support the notion that Tyranids have been afflicting the galaxy for a very long time- with a ship that crash landed on a planet long before the earliest previously mentioned Hive Fleets.

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

Earliest encounter of them was M35 according to the Lexicanum, unless the new novel predates that appearance.

QFT. Tyranids being around for a long time isn't new. Inquisition War - set in M36 - deals with Genestealers quite a bit. I'm also uh...Not reading Cain books for the time being anyway. Unless something has drastically changed about the character?

I'm told that Last Ditch is basically Caves of Ice 2.0. Has Mitchell delved into the NewCrons (the bad kind of Necrons)? Or are they still lol!Crons that just show up and kill everything and leave (the good kind of Necrons, the ones Mitchell wrote pre-new-Codex).

[Winterwind]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

I thought the genestealers were the earliest recorded Hive Fleet splinter (post retcon anyway)? Earliest encounter of them was M35 according to the Lexicanum, unless the new novel predates that appearance.

Aren't creatures like Catachan Devils and Fenris Kraken supposedly descended from Tyranids, showing that single displaced Hive Fleet splinters may have reached our galaxy even earlier than that?


Haven't read Last Ditch yet; I'm not even through Emperor's Finest. Been too busy painting minis to read lately, which I guess isn't the worst thing for a Warhammer enthusiast.

[Wraith]

The whole story that I can piece together from Lexicanum (quite a lot of which is substantiated by the last 2 editions of Codices Tyranids and Space Marines) goes as such:

Genestealers were first believed to have arrived in the Milky Way in M35 as part of what is now known as Hive Fleet Tiamat, though in reality might just be a tiny group of Tyranids that were blown off course by Solar winds and settled on the moons of Ymgarl, in the Tiamat System.
Left to their own devices, the proto-Nids of Ymgarl eventually evolved enough to spread out as far as Segmentum Obscuris, which explains the number of monstrous creatures such as Catachan Devils apparently sharing many Genestealer characteristics.

However, they were likely brought in greater numbers aboard drifting Space Hulks at pretty much any given date. Nobody knows for sure how many drifting Space Hulks have been recorded, let alone how many actually exist unchecked, and any or even all of them could bring any number of horrors back from outside the Galaxy. Some of them may even have bumped into Admiral Usurs coming the other way and hitched a ride.

The additional implications are that Tyranid DNA arrived in our system entirely by accident. The Genestealers found the Imperium purely by a freak coincidence, and called the rest of the Swarm just because the place looked nice and tasty.....

The Tyranids as a faction, in all their various forms and flavours, arrived in the Milky Way first at the assault on Tyran in 745.M41. Hilarity ensued shortly thereafter.

It wasn't until the aftermath of the Battle for Macragge a year later when Technomagi, investigating and classifying the remains of the creatures that had invaded Ultramar, discovered that Genestealers were genetically codified as Tyranids also.

[hamishspence]

It does mention the M35 date.

Initially the Tyranids in The Last Ditch are thought to have arrived there some 7000 years ago- noted to be somewhat earlier than M35.

Later, they realize that those Nids are much, much older. With the "comet" that turned the planet into an iceball all those years ago, actually being the hiveship.

Necrons don't make an appearence. Nids first seen in the new codex (mawloc, tervigon) do, however.

This novel is chronologically shortly after The Traitor's Hand (specifically, 942.M41).

[Brother Oni]

Out of curiosity, was Space Hulk the earliest instance of the Genestealers as antagonists, or does their Rogue Trader mention also lists stats as well?

I remember there was an After Action Report in the front of the 1st Ed rule book detailing how much of a complete [redacted] the Blood Angel's first encounter with 'stealers aboard a Space Hulk was, but I'm fairly sure the actual missions of the game was set ~600 years later.

There was a background book as well, which also listed the first time an Imperial world was lost to a genestealer cult infiltration and planetary revolt.

Edit: According to a copy of the manual I found on the internet, the AAR is apparently dated 989.M41. I need to find my copy of the game to verify this, because it sounds far too recent to match up with the M35 initial date of contact.

[Wraith]

Though they looked very different - and at the time, definitely were an individual species, as Tyranids in general didn't exist - Genestealers did exist in Rogue Trader. I don't remember anything about their stats, though RT's system was very different to what it is now so it probably wouldn't mean much if I could.

The one on the top left is right out of the Rogue trader rulebook, just in case you were wondering.

[Zorg]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Big, probably important plot stuff about a book with a listed release date of next month.

Thanks for the spoilers guys!

[hamishspence]

Next month? It came out on the 21st. Though I suppose the bookshops might get it later.

And those aren't that important to the plot. The blurb on the back of the book tells us about a terrible enemy that's lain dormant since before the Imperium came to the sector- so you don't need to have read the book to know that bit.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Next month? It came out on the 21st. Though I suppose the bookshops might get it later.

While things are usually different for Australia, I for one, can attest that I could've bought the book last Saturday (the 21st), and I opted not to. Instead I bought the second Blood Angels Omnibus, Luthor Huss, and Labyrinth of Sorrows.

Also, Emperor's Finest was released in non-stupid paperback form. Which I considered getting because hard-back books annoy me. I should probably start using my Kindle more.

But, looking at the Black Library website, yes, in fact, you can't actually buy any of them?

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Also, Emperor's Finest was released in non-stupid paperback form. Which I considered getting because hard-back books annoy me. I should probably start using my Kindle more.

While the larger size and cost of hardbacks can be irritating, there's downsides to paperbacks too. Some have a spine that creases very easily, no matter how careful you are when opening them.

[Zorg]

Black Library's website lists the release date as February. Also there's a difference between "ancient evil lying dormant since before the Imperium arrived" and "X wasn't Y, it was Z all along!"




In other news, Deliverance Lost is awesome. The Alpha Legion's involvement is minimal, but well played and there is some continuation from the events of Legion.
Corax's childhood is examined in depth, and the Emperor gets some good pagetime to follow on from his great appearance in Outcast Dead. I'd easily rate the book equal with Thousand Sons, Outcast Dead and Mechanicum, my favourites in the series.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

While the larger size and cost of hardbacks can be irritating, there's downsides to paperbacks too. Some have a spine that creases very easily, no matter how careful you are when opening them.

Like I said, I need to use my Kindle more. While Black Library is refusing to license to Amazon, pretty much all their books are downloadable now in Kindle format, so that's an even better plus.

Originally Posted by Zorg

Black Library's website lists the release date as February.

Is my GW weird then? Are they supposed to be selling books this early?

In other news, Deliverance Lost is awesome. The Alpha Legion's involvement is minimal, but well played and there is some continuation from the events of Legion.

I took an uncharacteristically long time to read it. But, I quite liked it. Imperial Fists are in it...And awesome.

[Zorg]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Is my GW weird then? Are they supposed to be selling books this early?

Regardless, it's still only been out for what, five days? Still a bit early for non-spoilers on anything concrete methinks.

But anyways...

I took an uncharacteristically long time to read it. But, I quite liked it. Imperial Fists are in it...And awesome.

I thought everyone's characterisation was really good, though at the end:

Spoiler

when the various Alpharii are revealed they hadn't used their real names for so long I'd sort of forgotten who was who (ie which Alpharius was Ort etc).
I would have liked to see the 'main' Alpharius have a bit more of a moral dillemma over killing the Raven Guard, or even to have truely become a Raven Guard, but oh well.

The Emperor's museum was a great scene too.

Been trying to listen to Dead in the Water, and I'm finding that the dialogue is noticably quieter than the prose. So listening to it either means that I'm struggling to hear the speach or the rest is a little too loud.
Anyone else found this? Admittedly I wasn't listening to it in the most quiet of places, but still.
The story itself isn't too bad so far, though thanks to Cheese I kept noticing him saying "if I'd known now what I'd known then..." Or maybe it's that he says it three or four times in the space of ten minutes.
The production is great with subtle sound effects used sparingly. Cain is a hell of a lot more gravelly than I'd imagined. The commanding man-voice would make a great Gaunt or Yarrick, but for Cain I'd always imagined him as a more Colin Firth or serious, non-fake American Hugh Laurie sounding type.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Zorg

The story itself isn't too bad so far, though thanks to Cheese I kept noticing him saying "if I'd known now what I'd known then..." Or maybe it's that he says it three or four times in the space of ten minutes.

[...] but for Cain I'd always imagined him as a more Colin Firth or serious, non-fake American Hugh Laurie sounding type.

So, thanks to me you noticed it was repetitive, but not that Toby Longworth is exactly the wrong voice for Cain?

That being said, Longworth is absolutely brilliant at doing voices for pretty much everything else he's ever done - except female voices.

[Arcanoi]

Originally Posted by Wraith

The additional implications are that Tyranid DNA arrived in our system entirely by accident. The Genestealers found the Imperium purely by a freak coincidence, and called the rest of the Swarm just because the place looked nice and tasty.....

Well, that would be one of the viable ways of finding galaxies, wouldn't it? Send out a massive net of genestealer colonies in all directions, which call the Swarm if they manage to find a large enough saturation of organics to reach critical mass. The other option would be to somehow find a galaxy, calculate its trajectory compared to yours, and then figure out where it would be when you got there and go there, something the Nids could probably do, but it seems out of character.

[Wraith]

I meant, as opposed to the idea that the Tyranids are being 'chased' into the Milky Way by something even bigger and scarier than they are, which is one of the popular theories as to why they're suddenly appearing en masse.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

And the Cain books say it's always Necrons in the end. Or Tyranids. But mostly Necrons.

You say?

*cough* The Traitor's Hand... Death or Glory... The Emperor's Finest... The Beguiling... Traitor's Gambit... - not a single Necron or Tyranid in there...

And arguably Duty Calls, For the Emperor and Cain's Last Stand, where Tyranids/Necrons appear for a few pages with real big bads being Chaos/Traitors. Always?

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Makes you wonder how Mitchell will handle NewCrons, if he decides to acknowledge them at all.

And what exactly changed in them he needs to change anything?

In fact, "new" Necrons are more similar to Cain's ones than the old, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

That's just it, and why I now hate Cain. We've seen Cain in 999.M41, there will be no stories set after that, because 40K stories don't work that way. Every book Cain is in, from now on, he'll live through and be totally fine because he survives the 13th Black Crusade.

Um... Except, that's not exactly true, since I recall at least 3-4 short stories/blurbs in Cainverse set in 06-08.M42, willingness of the author to go past that barrier being one of the things making him unique...

And if you believe Eisenhorn, Czevak, Ravenor, Gaunt or Ventris will die I have a few Cadian pylons for sale for really small amount of teef :P

Oh, and if you really want unkillable characters, Roboute, Russ, Dorn & co *gasp!* will (with 100% certainty) survive their own series, too. Still, that's not the point of reading about them, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Tome

Nah, they're explicitly mentioned as having a bunch of Tesseract Labyrinths back on Titan that they use to imprison things they can't destroy.

IIRC, they have really small supply of TL plundered from somewhere that is about to run out, sadly.

Originally Posted by Wraith

Although, we can make an educated guess, given their actions towards other unusually organised Chapters, that the Black Templars would probably declare a massive Crusade against the Grey Knights for what they perceive as massively heretical activities, and as the Grey Knights aren't predisposed towards explaining themselves to anyone outside their own Ordo....

BT organizing Crusade against unusually organized Chapters? When?

Plus, that would require them to start with a certain 'faux-legion' bunch of outcasts, which would be a rather curious thing to witness

Grey Knights were originally secretive, but most Imperial Forces seemed to know of their existence as an incredibly powerful, super-elite Space Marine Chapter, if nothing else about them.

Now they are an utter X-File, with the authority (and, apparently, physical strength) to mindwipe companies of other Space Marines and to commit genocide on 'Guard regiments who have seen them in action.

Now? Ward didn't invented 1st Armageddon, you know, or any of their earliest activities.

Grey Knights were originally powerful psykers, who had abilities focused towards making themselves faster, stronger and spiritually reinforced against Daemonic taint, and to banishing Daemons back to the Warp.

Now they are multipurpose psykers and are also Sorcerers who use everything from the same Vortex Of Doom-style powers available to all other Space Marines, to sacrificing 'pure' Imperial citizens in order to begin Blood Rituals in order to fight against Khornate Daemons.

So, they went from psykers we knew little about... to pretty much the same psykers, only in spotlight, and with methods explained, not implied?

Sorry, I don't see much difference there, save for finally seeing their Librarians and Grand Masters we long knew they possessed.

Originally Posted by Arcanoi

Well, that would be one of the viable ways of finding galaxies, wouldn't it? Send out a massive net of genestealer colonies in all directions, which call the Swarm if they manage to find a large enough saturation of organics to reach critical mass. The other option would be to somehow find a galaxy, calculate its trajectory compared to yours, and then figure out where it would be when you got there and go there, something the Nids could probably do, but it seems out of character.

How about, I don't know, using a telescope? Galaxy isn't exactly a small object, and it can be detected without throwing biomatter away into extragalactic space...

[Zorg]

Originally Posted by Trixie

Now? Ward didn't invented 1st Armageddon, you know, or any of their earliest activities.

The screwing of the defenders of Armageddon was done by the Adeptus Terra, not the Grey Knights.
Similarly, early accounts of mindwiping and murdering due to deamonic interaction are perpetrated by others - never the GKs themselves.

How about, I don't know, using a telescope? Galaxy isn't exactly a small object, and it can be detected without throwing biomatter away into extragalactic space...

But there's no guarantee the galaxy you're looking at will have compatible life, or any life at all.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Zorg

The screwing of the defenders of Armageddon was done by the Adeptus Terra, not the Grey Knights.
Similarly, early accounts of mindwiping and murdering due to deamonic interaction are perpetrated by others - never the GKs themselves.

My impression was, it was only done by others because it was considered too wasteful to have GK sit around and lost time purging anyone, since they're urgently needed in two dozen places at once, hence, both then and now others do it instead?

But there's no guarantee the galaxy you're looking at will have compatible life, or any life at all.

Sure. But, my impression of the above post was that genestealers were supposed to be randomly thrown into extragalactic space with a hope oh hitting a galaxy at all, not looking for a specific places in these galaxies...

Which, once you realize that that extragalactic space is so large and empty a big galaxy compared to it is smaller than planet compared to galaxy, makes little sense.