Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Brother Oni]

All this genestealer talk has reminded me of something: can orks currently be implanted and affected by genestealers? I remember some old rules for ork/stealer hybrids, but I believe that was before orks got retconned into ambulatory fungus.

[Bouregard]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

All this genestealer talk has reminded me of something: can orks currently be implanted and affected by genestealers? I remember some old rules for ork/stealer hybrids, but I believe that was before orks got retconned into ambulatory fungus.

According to Ciaphas Cain Novels is it possible.

[The Glyphstone]

And what exactly changed in them he needs to change anything?

In fact, "new" Necrons are more similar to Cain's ones than the old, IMHO.

Cain's scared to death of the Necrons. How well do you think he'll react if/when they start talking to him? And they will, because his luck will have him end up face-to-face with a Lord or Overlord.

It'd be a big shift in the Cainverse 'view' of Necrons to acknowledge them as anything other than faceless boogeymen of doom. A big paradigm shift for the chief protagonist, at least.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Trixie

And if you believe Eisenhorn, Czevak, Ravenor, Gaunt or Ventris will die I have a few Cadian pylons for sale for really small amount of teef :P

It's always possible that something terrible will happen to them. Like Eisenhorn getting his knees shot out. Or the fact that Czevak did die (he got better), Ravenor is in a box, and a lot of terrible things happen to Ventris. Alaric goes through some horrors and barely makes it out.

When Fischig rocks up, I actually did expect Eisenhorn to die. It was near the end, and that would set the final tone of the series.
Jaq Draco dies. Shot in the head by his story's version of Fischig.

It's not about dying per se. It's about suspense. Nothing bad will ever happen to Cain, because that's not the tone of the story. Because of how the Cain archetype works, I know that he will never be in any danger and he will escape/Jurgen his way out of every situation.

One time Cain lost two fingers...OH CAIN MY BABY, ARE YOU OKAY!?
...That was Necrons.

Oh, and if you really want unkillable characters, Roboute, Russ, Dorn & co *gasp!* will (with 100% certainty) survive their own series, too. Still, that's not the point of reading about them, IMHO.

Well, there I agree. But you're also asked to care about the Primarchs. Each of them is portrayed with human flaws and are often pushed to extreme actions because of those flaws. And we - as the reader - can relate to that. The only exception being Horus, whose Fall made absolutely no sense.

Cain is some kind of demigod. His 'flaws' aren't flaws at all, at least, not in a meaningful way that matters. "Wah wah wah, I don't want to be here. jk lols. Watch me win at everything." And every single story goes that way.

[The Glyphstone]

I still think that if you're looking for permanent horrible things to happen to Cain, it's like complaining because the Three Stooges never accidentally ruptured each other's corneas with eye pokes or inflicted medical comas with frying pans. Cain is comedy, or at least as close to it as 40K gets.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Cain is comedy, or at least as close to it as 40K gets.

That doesn't mean it doesn't have to have any depth. That doesn't mean that every plot in every book needs to be the same formula with Deus Ex Jurgens abound.

Maybe if they explored the fact that they can't actually find where Cain comes from, nor can they find which Progenium/Commissariat he went to. Maybe if they actually explored that Cain might not be what he seems then I'd be interested.

Rincewind the 'Wizzard' has a much better story, even though he's the same character.

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

That doesn't mean it doesn't have to have any depth. That doesn't mean that every plot in every book needs to be the same formula with Deus Ex Jurgens abound.

Maybe if they explored the fact that they can't actually find where Cain comes from, nor can they find which Progenium/Commissariat he went to. Maybe if they actually explored that Cain might not be what he seems then I'd be interested.

Rincewind the 'Wizzard' has a much better story, even though he's the same character.

Eh, I don't think exploring Cain's origins will do anything besides giving a name to his homeworld. I mean, they could make a story about how his parents were mistakenly executed by a commissar who thought they were guard deserters or something, but I don't think that would really do much.

Exploring that Cain "Might not be what he seems" is kind of tricky, because the books are written from Cain's perspective. Cain SEEMS like some sort of Superhero commissar, he believes himself to be a pragmatic coward with bad luck, but his actions don't quite hold that out. The result is that he's effectively the guy everybody thinks he is, just snarkier. His character is already pretty well explored, his Big Secret is that he's scared, but ends up doing heroic stuff anyway.

Yes, we know nothing horrible will happen to Cain because these are written from the perspective of an Old, respected, and fairly intact Cain, but "The Heroes Succeed" is the rule for a hefty majority of fiction, especially Adventure and genre fiction like the Cain series. That's why authors like GRRM are famous for their willingness to kill off characters, because it's so unusual.

Now, that said, the Cain books do have a certain lack of depth or drama beyond "Oh No, look what that Wacky Cain guy has gotten himself into this time", but it's a little too late to fix that. We know Cain turns out okay, and he never really grows attached to other characters enough to raise the stakes on their behalf.

Basically, every charge you have leveled against the Cain books is 100% true. Cain is going to walk out of every problem unscathed and drowning in glory. We know the Formula.

And here's the thing, I still like the Cain books. I like that I can read a W40k story that dosn't feel obliged to make everything Dark and Gritty. Even Dan Abnett, whose work I very much enjoy, occasionally seems to mistake Tragedy for Depth and cynicism for intelligence. Cain stories are fun, in the same way that watching formulaic crime shows is fun.

[Brother Oni]

If it helps, think of the Cain books like the Blackadder Goes Forth TV series: hilarious hijinks set against a backdrop of unrelenting warfare and suffering.

All the comedy only serves to contrast with the bleak ending (although I'm not sure what ending the Cain series will have, since you know he makes it to retirement and survives another invasion).

[Tectonic Robot]

Oy, what's it about Warhammer 40k that makes people argue so much? It's insane, it is.

We still discussing Tau as opposed to Imperium, or is that arguement buried?

Also, anyone mind telling me what the new codex does, exactly, for the necrons?

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Tectonic Robot

Oy, what's it about Warhammer 40k that makes people argue so much? It's insane, it is.

We still discussing Tau as opposed to Imperium, or is that arguement buried?

Also, anyone mind telling me what the new codex does, exactly, for the necrons?

Mechanically? Tons, but that belongs in Tabletop Discussion.

Fluffwise, it gives them personality, basically. Oldcrons were Terminators IN SPAAACE - soulless, emotionless machines who existed for no reason except to purge all sentient life from the galaxy and serve their star-devouring gods. Newcrons are the survivors of an ancient, galaxy-spanning empire who ruled pretty much everything before the Eldar but lost their strength in a giant galactic war and went to sleep to recover, only to wake up and shake their walking sticks at the whippersnapper humans who built hive cities all over their lawns and set to work trying to reclaim their lost territory.

[Winterwind]

Though the codex also goes a long way towards explaining that the Necrons did lose their souls when they gave up their mortal existence, and Necron Warriors are pretty much still the soulless automatons they used to be (and the fate they suffered is, in a certain way, presented even more terrifyingly in the new codex, as it focuses a lot more on how much the Necrons lost by their transformation, and how for the vast majority of the population, this change was anything but voluntary). It also explains how this change is, without exception, slowly causing them to go insane, in varying ways: Destroyers adopt a nihilistic philosophy that calls for the utter extinction of all life, Lords become increasingly disconnected with reality in various manners, Flayed Ones... Flayed Ones are just utterly messed up beyond repair.

[Tectonic Robot]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

-Useful Information-

Originally Posted by Winterwind

-More Useful Information-

Thanks, mates. Necrons were my favorite army for awhile- I suppose I should go check out the tabletop games section, then.

[TechnoScrabble]

Hey, I noticed my black reach set had spehss mehreens, and decided to make up a chapter that's an offshoot of the salamanders. I'm gonna paint them green and grey, with the terminators being all green (with gold or yellow helmets) and having the norse rune for volcano on their shoulders, but I can't think of a name or company emblem. I was thinking stonefists, but there are already so many fist themed chapters. Any ideas?

[The Glyphstone]

Sons of Surtur?

Sure, there are almost as many Sons chapters as their are Fists chapters, but it's got a fire-esque connotation and it fits with the Norse rune thing.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by BRC

Exploring that Cain "Might not be what he seems" is kind of tricky, because the books are written from Cain's perspective. Cain SEEMS like some sort of Superhero commissar, he believes himself to be a pragmatic coward with bad luck, but his actions don't quite hold that out. The result is that he's effectively the guy everybody thinks he is, just snarkier. His character is already pretty well explored, his Big Secret is that he's scared, but ends up doing heroic stuff anyway.

It's exactly because the books are written from Cain's own point of view, that leaves me with the faint hope that it could all change.

Cain is, afterall, a self-confessed liar. What if, for example, it turned out that Cain was actually pulling a double-bluff?
He knows how he appears in public - as the conquering hero, adored by his men and feared by his enemies.
He writes in his books that this is just a fascade, and that it was all bluster to hide his cowardly, selfish personality that got taken too far and somehow made him look even more heroic.
Then the twist comes that the cowardly side is the cover-up for something even more sinister. Maybe he spent his entire career trying to capitulate with the enemy, and was accidentally thwarted at every turn by various forces - Jurgen, Space Marines, Amberley, invasions by rival chaos warlords - which is the only reason he never managed to escape his Loyal Commisar role.

And his memoirs, looking back over his escapades, are yet more lies as he tries to hide any evidence that he was anything other than lucky.
When he protested that he didn't want to go down into the Necron Tomb? Reverse psychology, knowing full well that Kasteen trusted him so thoroughly that she would interpret it as false modesty!
How he always manages to find the necessary inspiration to find out where the next daemonic ritual is going to occur? The whole 'epiphany' thing was complete fantasy, to hide the fact that he knew where it would happen because he had planned it all along!
Accidentally uncovering a Slaaneshi cult full of gorgeous girls, lead by an irresistable sorceress, costing him the lives of two Troopers along the way? His long term allies, awaiting a deliberate rendesvous and with a pair of dupes ready to be used as sacrifice fodder!

....Okay, that's looking less like a coherent plot and more like Wild Mass Guessing, but you get the point. And it all ends with Amberley in her study putting the finishing touches to the last of Cain's memoirs, satisfied that she has done her old friend and lover justice in death.... Only for him to appear at her door, murder her brutally and then disappear after finally removing the last potential witness to his crimes, like Kaiser Soze.....

[TechnoScrabble]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Sons of Surtur?

Sure, there are almost as many Sons chapters as their are Fists chapters, but it's got a fire-esque connotation and it fits with the Norse rune thing.

Hmm...

I googled that...I like the reference...Fafnir works too, being a norse dragon and all...

For a home planet, I was thinking they'd have formed their chapter base on a planet that very rapidly orbits 2 suns and is somewhat protected by the heat and radiation, and that there are these sort of dragon like plasma based beings that live near the suns and go to the planet to breed. Maybe that killing one would be part of becoming a full Battle Brother.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Wraith

Epileptic Forest

Personally, I much prefer the variant that Cain really is a galactic hero, known everywhere as a famous champion of the Imperium and every bit the legends say he is. His 'memoirs', though, are in-universe fanfiction written by Amberley Vail, a farmgirl on an agri-world somewhere.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by BRC

Exploring that Cain "Might not be what he seems" is kind of tricky, because the books are written from Cain's perspective. [...] his Big Secret is that he's scared, but ends up doing heroic stuff anyway.

It's easy.

• Cain is up for an award, or a promotion, or he's trying to get something done that requires clearance of some kind.
• A routine personnel check shows that a lot of Cain's records are either incomplete or redacted from a higher source? What source? Why are Cain's files incomplete? How did he apply to be a Commissar in the first place.
• Cain is hesitant, but eventually puts a name to his birth-world. Again, as a routine check, some Admins look up the planet. Turns out like...Two months ago - or whatever a short time is - the planet was hit by an undocumented Tyranid/Necron attack (because it's Cain, it's always Tyranids or Necrons), convenient, no?
• Cain panics when he realises that Zyvan wants to take his units and go investigate. Cain deserts his post not being able to face his nightmare and his destroyed planet.
• Cain is caught and put into a Penal Legion for desertion and sent to the planet anyway. Uh oh. What wacky hijinks will Cain get up to this time?

Being in a Penal Legion is bad. Really, really bad. These guys don't give a flying s* about Cain's reputation (unless they could make fun of him for it), and weakness is most definitely not allowed. Hell, the Penal Legion Commissar/Handler can get killed, and through some fast talk, huge coincidence and amazing skill (which Cain still says he doesn't have), Cain puts on the Handler's sash and cap and marches his Penal Unit (there's a joke there...) to victory.

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

[Cain]'s 'memoirs', though, are in-universe fanfiction written by Amberley Vail, a farmgirl on an agri-world somewhere.

You win.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

It's easy.

• Cain is up for an award, or a promotion, or he's trying to get something done that requires clearance of some kind.
• A routine personnel check shows that a lot of Cain's records are either incomplete or redacted from a higher source? What source? Why are Cain's files incomplete? How did he apply to be a Commissar in the first place.
• Cain is hesitant, but eventually puts a name to his birth-world. Again, as a routine check, some Admins look up the planet. Turns out like...Two months ago - or whatever a short time is - the planet was hit by an undocumented Tyranid/Necron attack (because it's Cain, it's always Tyranids or Necrons), convenient, no?
• Cain panics when he realises that Zyvan wants to take his units and go investigate. Cain deserts his post not being able to face his nightmare and his destroyed planet.
• Cain is caught and put into a Penal Legion for desertion and sent to the planet anyway. Uh oh. What wacky hijinks will Cain get up to this time?

Being in a Penal Legion is bad. Really, really bad. These guys don't give a flying s* about Cain's reputation (unless they could make fun of him for it), and weakness is most definitely not allowed. Hell, the Penal Legion Commissar/Handler can get killed, and through some fast talk, huge coincidence and amazing skill (which Cain still says he doesn't have), Cain puts on the Handler's sash and cap and marches his Penal Unit (there's a joke there...) to victory.

Yeah, but since you know Cain won't get left there permanently (because he is eventually buried with full military honors), wouldn't something that tumultuous just end up highlighting your complain that Cain always wins out and survives in the end?

You win.

I can't claim credit for it myself, but since I don't remember where I saw it, I will take the win in proxy of its rightful claimant.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

wouldn't something that tumultuous just end up highlighting your complain that Cain always wins out and survives in the end?

Kind of. Like I said, Cain is entirely formulaic at this point. And if you can't tell different stories anymore, you should be exploring the character. Well, if you're a good writer, that is. I mean, you can keep pumping out the same story over and over and over again...

What does Cain do without his reputation, surrounded by people who hate him, stuck in one of his worst nightmare situations without Jurgen by his side?

Sandy Mitchell wrote Dark Heresy books, and they were...well, not bad. He can at least try something different with Cain at this point.

[stabbybelkar]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Personally, I much prefer the variant that Cain really is a galactic hero, known everywhere as a famous champion of the Imperium and every bit the legends say he is. His 'memoirs', though, are in-universe fanfiction written by Amberley Vail, a farmgirl on an agri-world somewhere.

THIS. THIS. THIS. THIS.

There are no words that are capable of expressing how much win this idea is.

[Platinius]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Personally, I much prefer the variant that Cain really is a galactic hero, known everywhere as a famous champion of the Imperium and every bit the legends say he is. His 'memoirs', though, are in-universe fanfiction written by Amberley Vail, a farmgirl on an agri-world somewhere.

When I read this, I thought "aww, so cute" and actually blushed.

[Weezer]

Originally Posted by stabbybelkar

THIS. THIS. THIS. THIS.

There are no words that are capable of expressing how much win this idea is.

There is only one major problem with that theory: not enough sex. For gods sake you have two men (Cain and Jurgen) in close physical and narrative proximity and they don't do it? That's breaking all the laws of fan fiction right there

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Weezer

There is only one major problem with that theory: not enough sex. For gods sake you have two men (Cain and Jurgen) in close physical and narrative proximity and they don't do it? That's breaking all the laws of fan fiction right there

Maybe the author isn't into that sort of thing? Not all erotic fanfiction is about yaoi/slash.

The books go into a massive amount of detail of how repugnant Jurgen is (although whether it's because of his anti-psyker field or his personal hygiene is more of a chicken/egg question), so that probably puts paid to any suggestion of Jurgen and anybody, with the exception of his extensive holopic collection of *cough* specialist images.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah - the author is clearly smitten with Cain, and fan-shipping herself into the story as his One Tru Luv.

EDIT: Plus, there's plenty of sex, it just isn't M/M and always gets hinted at or faded-to-black rather than anything explicit. Because, you know, she's a relatively young and sheltered farmgirl, and while she would totally do it with Cain if she could, she's not entirely concrete on the details of 'it'.

[Acanous]

You know, there IS some hinting towards Slaanesh looking out for Cain.
If you read the Grey Knights omnibus, there's at least one in-verse reason that Chaos daemons might want to instal a false imperial saint. Cain finding Jurgen (and before the Inquisition!) might have been the work of Chaos.

The victory against the Slaaneshi cultists (Both times) could very well have been set up.

Of course, if Cain IS being played by Slaanesh, he himself is unaware of it (and opposed to it. He preffers Brunettes.)

It's probably just going to be left hanging, though.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Acanous

Of course, if Cain IS being played by Slaanesh, he himself is unaware of it (and opposed to it. He preffers Brunettes.)

I thought Amberly was blonde?

I'm not so sure about being played by Slaanesh - intricate plans within plans tends to be more Tzeentch's forte.
After all, if Slaanesh intended for Jurgen to end up with Cain, then interrupting Emeli's attempt to turn a planet into a Chaos world (which also cost itself a Keeper of Secrets) would be a really expensive plan in order to elevate Cain even higher, something he didn't really need at that point in his career.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

I thought Amberly was blonde?

I'm not so sure about being played by Slaanesh - intricate plans within plans tends to be more Tzeentch's forte.
After all, if Slaanesh intended for Jurgen to end up with Cain, then interrupting Emeli's attempt to turn a planet into a Chaos world (which also cost itself a Keeper of Secrets) would be a really expensive plan in order to elevate Cain even higher, something he didn't really need at that point in his career.

That's a quote from before he met Amberley.

[GolemsVoice]

A thought struck me: most vehicles of the Imperium still run on some sort of simple, yet efficient internal combustion engine, yet they apparently have the technology provide millions of creepy cherub children and servoskulls with antigrav devices. Talk abour priorities.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

A thought struck me: most vehicles of the Imperium still run on some sort of simple, yet efficient internal combustion engine, yet they apparently have the technology provide millions of creepy cherub children and servoskulls with antigrav devices. Talk abour priorities.

This canonically depends where you are in the Imperium - It's a pretty big place, after all - and unsurprisingly holds up a mirror to real life politics and military maneuvers.

Generally speaking, the closer you are to Terra or maybe Ultramar (which can apply according to your status, as much as it does your physical location), the closer you get to Star Trek levels of technology because that's where all the important people tend to be.
Further away, closer to the frontier where only fools, heretics and the Imperial Guard get sent, it's not only harder logistically to keep a open supply chain but there's no incentive to take away Power Armour from a Planetary Governer's Personal Bodyguard and give it to someone in Penal Legion #375496.

That's why Inquisitors get Combi-plasmaguns and Refractor Fields, while bits of the 'Guard still have steam-powered tanks.