Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

[DerTollUdo]

Wow, so got some playtesting in yesterday and can definitely say playing at the high end of power brings out the oddest rules questions. Ill post later when i get some time to write it up, but basically the class needs a tell and force nlast needs looking at.

[bobthe6th]

well... perhaps a minor run from martial fighting? just start grabbing opponents and fighting with them? like a dominate variant with an imposed dex penalty and a strength bonus? with strength check to break free. needs to have a huge hand cost though, as its sorta a save or die at will... perhaps only working at half hand range?

perhaps thats the higher level skill, with perhaps some quick minion creation at lower levels.

or say a thurge with a martial adept for a doll judgment mastery prestige class? maybe even a martial variant getting doll judgment and a maneuver progression, losing martial skills, and some range?

edit:now waiting with bated breath on the need for an overhaul...

[Veklim]

In a dim and distant future, clouded by uncertainty and doubt, we may FINALLY finish this class!

[DerTollUdo]

Alright, here goes:

1: As is, these guys are the perfect assassins. They have invisible powers that are really hard to pinpoint who they are coming from and can do them at impressive ranges.

I propose they have some visual "tell" about their powers. Add it to Hands that all powers have a visual aspect. Like waves of power rolling from them to the target or the air compressing around them as their power concentrates. This wouldn't be anything that is stoppable, so it isn't like a somatic/verbal component. It is just a thing so that if someone were to observe you use your powers, they could tell you were the one doing it. Maybe not know what it is you are doing, but that you did something.

2a: Force Blast, is it balanced?
I opted to go for the pure ACF, and with my stats I have 27 Hands at level 13 (13+ 12 from Con +2 from LMMH) and a Cha mod of +18. In our game we have chosen to avoid rolling dmg dice as the numbers get absurd and instead do 1/2 +.5 per die (so 2.5 on a d4, 3.5 on a d6, etc) to make the math easier.
I also have the TK Focus tree for Force Blast.

In the encounter, I put up a wall (about 8 Hands)protecting the entire room and preventing a spell from dropping on us and crushing us with snow, since the wall stops things from passing through it (see 2b below for on walls).

While holding the wall, I had to attack someone outside of it. The best option I had was to force blast her. So I threw 10 Hands into it for 325 dmg and a +17 to hit (magically buffed) and still had 9 Hands just in case.

Apparently my group was a little shocked, because they thought I had to drop the wall to do that much damage, and when I replied "no, it could have been higher too if I felt I needed it...but would have almost no chance to hit," their jaws couldn't hang much lower. One said, well it's homebrew so they are never balanced anyway. I said, "it is balanced. I had to drop a 20 to hit with that (I did get the 20, but still)." The fact that my damage potential scales inversely with my attack bonus I feel is balanced because while if I went all out on a force blast I could deal 877, but my to hit would be -21.

They countered with this: if you built an army of these guys, and lined them all up against you, 5% of them would deal that much damage each. Or they could deal 422 with to hits of +7 for even better odds of hitting you as they all attack twice now. With a ridiculous number of saves vs suck. Is that really considered balanced?

I said, yeah. Replace them with random dudes and give them all missile weapons, super ammo, and truestrike and they will deal more (he does this to us, and they do end up dealing stupid amounts of dmg that is just as hard if not harder to live through). He was then willing to accept my claim of balance, but really it was more of a "well, it's homebrew, so they break the game" acceptance.

What do you guys think? Is it balanced? Or am I just deluding myself?

2bA question came up that I had no answer for: does the wall have a mass limit it can support? If a building were falling on you, could you box yourself and be unscathed? I weighed both options and couldn't decide which was more balanced. Does the wall just stop things and any amount is fine since it is a wall similar to Wall of Force in most ways? Or does the wall use some variation of Mental Strength to determine its capacity?

[bobthe6th]

1:how about a green lantern style color effect? so powers have a personal color?

2a:how many hands were you devoting to it and what level? thats fine high level damage... but I think PTK may be a bit much with level/hands +con... but if that was highish level(15+) for a crit that was fair...
ah, 13th level... a lot of damage, but a crit(remind the barbarian of his charge crit with a great axe for 3x damage, see if he shuts up about it) it seems within reason.

I could see droping PTK to half level hands, or 2/3 level hands. would make it a little more sane with hands

gather army of mid level PCs... yeah I don't feel that is reasonable. really, PCs should be rare not automatic(they are the heros of fate, not shmuk# 33 that hangs out with his 3000 clones).


2b: I would assume collosal creature with str of mental streangth+16 str lift over head limit.

[DerTollUdo]

1: Yeah, I was going to say have it be personal. Just that they need to have one lol.

2a: It wasn't pure that needed to be toned down lol. I actually could have done that without pure. It was whether or not Force Blast was ok. I mean, I am by no means the strongest char in the group (we have a battle jumper). They were just shocked that I had utility and non insignificant damage I can scale at will.

2b: See that just seems complicated. The spot ruling we made was that it blocks things as a Wall of Force. So everything lol.

[bobthe6th]

1: I was just saying people tend to want it personalized... it's just that a major thematic thing with telikenisis is that it is invisible... perhapce have the telikenetic himself have a visual tell? like visible strain or heat waves? dunno...

2a: Pure had another 8 hands for the effect... it lets the scaling go crazy. but as is... I don't see a massive issue. its reasonable damage with a penalized touch attack. so power attak for the mind. It does seem like a lot... but really? the 1000 damage/attack battle jumper was dumbfounded?

2b: it bull rushes as that, so I figured it should lift as that, but force wall works.

[Veklim]

1. Psionics generally have a display of some kind (auditory, material, mental, olfactory or visual), these aren't part of the manifestation, they're merely symptomatic, so an auditory display power used within a silence effect would be silent, but still work fine. You can suppress these displays with a concentration check equal to 15+power level so we'd probably make it 12+Hands invested if we were to do the same methinks.

For the TK, I thought an audible hum from the TK (for the actual use of abilities) and perhaps translucent ripples rushing through the air (the Hands themselves) would be appropriate. Another could be a shining multi-spectral light emanating from the TK's eyes (out to 5ft then dissipating, as standard for such displays) as an ability is activated. Perhaps the smell of burnt toast when you force blast...?

2a. I keep looking at Force Blast and wondering the same myself, is it OP or not? Honestly, what we're looking at is an @will caster-type effect, with weapon-like damage/to hit ratios in place. Makes it weird, but IMO this makes for a good middle ground in the eternal mundane/magical debate. You become much less likely to hit if you scale your damage up to silly levels, and this is a good thing. I'm not entirely sure if we placed the fulcrum right, but there's certainly not too much of an issue in my mind.

2b. Considering it a Wall of Force is far simpler than trying to figure out Colossal + effective Str for carry capacity every time you make a wall. At least it's just arithmetic for the bullrushing, carry caps are a little more involved, especially at bigger size categories.


On a different note, my last day of work tomorrow, and then a week off to play VTM 20th ed for a week. This means I will have my old GM about for a while, and I'll try to get his noggin working on this too. Either way, rough outlines for the PrCs aforementioned will accompany my posts in the next few days.

[DerTollUdo]

1 So it is agreed. We shall put in the Hands listing that they have a tell. Shall we make it always the same tell, (visible waves of force from the TK to the target) or just say they must all choose one. And it is clear that it comes from the user.

2a So not OP is the concensus? Any other voices wish to be heard on it?

2b Alright, it blocks things as a WoF but doesn't get destroyed unless someone pushes through it (pre 20 at least lol). Correct?

[Veklim]

Originally Posted by DerTollUdo

1 So it is agreed. We shall put in the Hands listing that they have a tell. Shall we make it always the same tell, (visible waves of force from the TK to the target) or just say they must all choose one. And it is clear that it comes from the user.

Aye, they're known as 'displays' for psionics and I'd suggest we retain the terminology here for the sake of clarity. Surprised we didn't mention any sort of visual/audio effect in the text, I've been assuming it happens throughout playtesting anyhow!

Originally Posted by DerTollUdo

2a So not OP is the concensus? Any other voices wish to be heard on it?

..........

Originally Posted by DerTollUdo

2b Alright, it blocks things as a WoF but doesn't get destroyed unless someone pushes through it (pre 20 at least lol). Correct?

Yup, sounds good to me!

[DerTollUdo]

As for the display, I don't want to make it suppressible. It needs to always be there, because really the check is miniscule.

[Veklim]

Agreed. Had plans for stuff like that anyhow, TK/Rogue PrC stuff

[DerTollUdo]

So, my brain is failing, and my time is short. Anyone got ideas on the wording of the proposed changes?

[Veklim]

Originally Posted by DerTollUdo

So, my brain is failing, and my time is short. Anyone got ideas on the wording of the proposed changes?

hrmmmm, will get to that in a bit, have been busy with this in the meantime...

Changelog

Spoiler

• Reworded the Ambusher ability to try and clarify a little. You can only qualify with Hands now, not Hands and Sneak attack combined, since the latter was broken rather badly as it turns out (especially using PTK)
• Reworded Ambusher Advanced so it made sense!
• Removed the +1/Hand bonus from Ambusher Perfect ability since it was a bit silly, added the immunity addendum for creatures exempt from the flat-footed condition.
• Removed erroneous AoO statement from Move Through Darkness.
• Reworded the Bonus Ambush Feat entry to come in line with changes to Ambusher.
• Added the 'single target proviso' to Predator's Gaze.
• Expanded Commit to Shadows slightly to explain where the target ends up, how you can determine valid targets, and made it 3/day to avoid over-population of the Shadow plane!

The Shadow Hand Hit Dice: D6
REQUIREMENTS
Skills:Concentration 9 ranks, Hide 9 ranks, Disable device 6 ranks, Open Lock 6 ranks, Sleight of Hand 6 ranks
Feats:Minesweeper
Special:Mind's Eye class ability, Sneak Attack +1D6 (or similar precision based bonus damage, at DM discretion)

LEVEL	BAB	FORT	REF	WILL	SPECIAL
1st	+0	+0	+2	+2	TK Affinity, Mind Drain, Ambusher (Adept)
2nd	+1	+0	+3	+3	+1D6 Sneak Attack, Move Through Darkness
3rd	+2	+1	+3	+3	Bonus Ambush Feat, Far Trick
4th	+3	+1	+4	+4	Ambusher (Advanced), Larceny Focus
5th	+3	+1	+4	+4	+2D6 Sneak Attack, Helping Hand
6th	+4	+2	+5	+5	Bonus Ambush Feat, Far Trick
7th	+5	+2	+5	+5	Ambusher (Superior), Dark Highway
8th	+6	+2	+6	+6	+3D6 Sneak Attack, Predator's Gaze
9th	+6	+3	+6	+6	Bonus Ambush Feat, Far Trick
10th	+7	+3	+7	+7	Ambusher (Perfect), Commit to Shadows

Class Skills 6(+Int):
The Shadow Hand's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are; Auto Hypnosis (Con), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Dungeoneering)(Int), Knowledge (Psionics)(Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Psicraft (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of hand (Dex), Spot(Wis), Tumble(Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Psionic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex).

TK Affinity [Su]
Shadow Hand class levels stack with Telekineticist levels for the purposes of calculating your total number of Hands, and for save DCs, Telekinetic range and other effects relying on your Telekineticist levels. This does not give you access to new Hand abilities however, it only applies to abilities you have already aquired.

Mind Drain [Ex]
At 1st level you gain the Mind Drain ambush feat (complete scoundrel pg 79) for free. You need not meet the requirements.

Ambusher [Ex]
Beginning at 1st level, the Shadow Hand may use Hands in substitution of sneak attack dice to qualify for and use Ambush feats. You must have at least 2 Hands available for every 1D6 sneak attack required to meet the requirements of an ambush feat (so an ambush feat requiring 4D6 sneak attack would require you to have 8 available hands). To use any ambush feat, you must invest this same number of Hands into the attack you make, and these Hands give no other benefit to the attack (so an ambush feat requiring you sacrifice 3D6 sneak attack to use would require the use of 6 Hands). This replaces the sneak attack dice requirements for qualifying and using ambush feats, but you may still sacrifice Sneak attack dice to use an ambush feat if you so wish (however, you may not combine sneak attack dice and Hands to use an ambush feat, it must be one or the other). Furthermore, the Shadow Hand gains a unique ability at 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th levels as listed below:
Adept:
You may supress the display/s of your Hand abilities with a successful Concentration check, DC 15+(1 per Hand used in the ability). You must make a separate check for every ability you use.
Advanced:
Any weapon used with TK Fighting may deal Sneak Attack damage as if you were wielding it normally, so long as the target is vulnerable to them. You may now apply your Sneak Attack to your Force Blasts, as long as the target is denied their Dexterity to AC and within 30ft of you.
Superior:
You may perform a full round's worth of actions in a surprise round. Furthermore, whenever you successfully attack a foe whilst using an ambush feat, you may make an immediate hide check at a -10 penalty to conceal your location from them. You gain a +1 bonus to this check for every 5 points of damage you inflict with the attack.
Perfect:
Whenever you successfully attack an opponent from hiding, you may attempt to disorient your foe and make them believe the attack came from an impossible angle. Roll a Bluff check opposed by the foe's Sense Motive, if you win, the opponent is flat footed until the end of your next turn. Creatures exempt from the flat-footed condition are not affected by this.

Sneak Attack [Ex]
At 2nd level, you deal an extra 1D6 points of damage when you are flanking an opponent or at any time when the target would be denied it's Dexterity bonus. The extra damage dealt by your sneak attack increases to 2D6 at 5th level and to 3D6 at 8th level. If you get a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses on damage stack.

Move Through Darkness [Su]
From 2nd level onwards, whenever you are in shadowy (or darker) illumination you may shift up to 10ft/class level in any direction as a move action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but you must end this movement in a place of shadowy (or darker) illumination. This requires the use of 1 Hand/10ft moved.

Bonus Ambush Feat [Ex]
At 3rd level, then again at 6th & 9th levels, you gain a bonus ambush feat. You must still meet the requirements for this feat, but such must be done with your number of available Hands, not sneak attack dice (as described above in Ambusher).

Far Trick [Su]
At 3rd level, then again at 6th & 9th levels, you gain the next ability along for Far Trick as if you had gained sufficient levels in Telekineticist. If you don't have Far Trick already, you gain it's first ability in the Telekineticist class list. If you already have all 4 levels of Far Trick and you gain this feature (from this, or any other class), you gain a bonus skill trick instead.

Larceny Focus [Su]
At 4th level you begin to better understand how to use certains skills at range with your Hands. Whenever you use Mental Strength to make a Disable Device, Open Lock or Sleight of Hand check, you may invest additional Hands for a +2/Hand bonus to the check (maximum number of Hands equal to Shadow Hand class level).

Helping Hand [Su]
At 5th level the Shadow Hand has developed his capability with Mental Strength and ambush tactics to an advanced degree. You may now use a Hand to perform the 'Aid Another' action anywhere within your TK range. Additionally, once per turn as an immediate action, you may invest any number of Hands up to your Shadow Hand class level in another creature or player's attack to give that attack the effects of one of your ambush feats (as per the Ambush ability above) as long as the struck creature is flat footed, flanked or otherwise denied their Dexterity bonus to AC. Any Hands used in either way are considered used until the end of the assisted creature or player's turn.

Dark Highway [Sp]
At 7th level you gain a deeper understanding of your movement through shadows. 1/day as a full round action, you may initiate travel through the plane of shadow as if using the Shadow Walk spell (with one distinct difference, see below) with a caster level equal to your character level. To bring other creatures along, you must succeed with a ranged touch attack and invest 1 Hand/traveller, these Hands are considered used until the end of the effect.
Additionally, the distance travelled with Move Through Darkness increases to 20ft/class level at a cost of 1 Hand/20ft travelled.

Predator's Gaze [Su]
At 8th level, whenever you use your Mind's Eye ability you may designate a single creature you detect as your target. For the duration of the encounter, you and all willing allies are instantly aware of the space that creature occupies (whether they can actually see it or not) and gain an insight bonus to hit and damage that creature equal to your Charisma modifier. Only one such creature may be targeted by this effect at any time. If you target a creature whilst another target is still affected by your Pedator's Gaze, then the effect moves to the new target instead. Henceforth, your Mind's Eye ability only requires a standard action to activate.

Commit to Shadows [Su]
At 10th level you gain the truly incredible ability to send an opponent spiralling into the plane of shadow. 3/day as a full round action you may make a single ranged touch attack against any opponent to send them directly into the plane of shadow as if they have just been affected by a Banishment spell or similar. The creature is deposited in a random location on the plane of shadow (DM's choice basically). There is no save for this effect, but you must use at least 1 Hand/HD the target creature has to affect that creature (you instinctively know whether you have enough Hands to affect a creature with this ability before you activate it).

[DerTollUdo]

That looks good, I'll PEACH that soon. It makes a good utility/sneak. I think I saw some flaws though.

[Veklim]

Flaws will inevitably exist, I typed it fresh into the post so nothing has had more than a cursory glance by myself as I wrote it. Doubt it's all that good just now, but it's a start, and that was my objective!

[DerTollUdo]

Also realized, the class needs this: When a Telekineticist falls unconscious all Hand dependent abilities end.

Or something worded like that.

[DerTollUdo]

Alright, after further analysis Force Blast is broken.

At level 20, no optimization, with Pure TK, LMMH, and TK Focus tree you do this:
Have 48 +con Hands.
3 Force Blasts 16 Hands per blast 400' Range as touch attacks.
Assuming avg dmg, that's 2400 dmg a round. You will shred every enemy you see, one by one.

Proposal: I have a fix, but it is an overhaul of Force Blast I will put up tomorrow. This will split away the ability to fling objects, but that needs to be reworked anyway because in the same vein it can do 6720 dmg as a standard attack roll. Will post later with more.

[Re'ozul]

I haven't been here for a while, but wasn't the original Idea for pure TK that you don't get con as bonus hands?

EDIT: And yeah, Force blast has long since been the one thing I thought should be changed, just halfing the damage would work.

Alternately you could say that your blasts (the pure force version) converge if fired on the same enemy so you only get one blast for each enemy but each hand involved for an enemy increases the blast damage by natural progression, so:

1 hand: 1d4/2lvl (currently based on equal number of blasts: 1d4/lvl)
2 hands: 1d6/2lvl (currently based on equal number of blasts: 2d4/lvl)
3hands: 1d8/2lvl (currently based on equal number of blasts: 3d4/lvl)
4hands: 2d6/2lvl (currently based on equal number of blasts: 4d4/lvl)
5hands: 3d6/2lvl (currently based on equal number of blasts: 5d4/lvl)
6hands: 4d6/2lvl (currently based on equal number of blasts: 6d4/lvl)
7hands: 6d6/2lvl (currently based on equal number of blasts: 7d4/lvl)
etc.

Even with 7 hands invested you only average 3d6/lvl (10.5 damage/lvl) while currently an equal number of blasts means 7d4/lvl (17.5 damage/lvl)

So with an absurd number of hands this one could break damage counters even more but at that point you already are at the "need nat20" border anyway.

For completeness sake:
8hands: 14 damage/lvl new (20 damage/lvl currently)
9hands: 21 damage/lvl new (22.5 damage/lvl currently)

so you'd need 10 hands invested in a blast on a single target to get the equivalent or more damage of 10 current blasts.

[DerTollUdo]

Those numbers I put up before were excluding con bonus. That was just the class. The problem isn't with the number of Hands the class gets, it's about what they can do with them. And Force Blast seems like the purest form of abuse for this class. Who wouldn't put all their Hands in it and begin shredding every enemy you face?

At level 1: You have 2+ con Hands. Let's say you have 14 con. You deal 4d4 as a touch attack. That's avg of 10 dmg with a to hit of cha mod-5. For a touch attack at level one you will hit more than not. And for the numbers I put up earlier: You would probably have a 30 cha, and with it a net +0 to hit before you apply magic boosts to your to hit. As a touch attack at 400' why not use this ability to destroy whatever target you choose? Enemy dragons: BOOM. Castle gates: BOOM. Everything else: BOOM.

Anyway, here is the overhaul to Force Blast, although at present I have no idea what to do about flinging objects:

Force Blast

Spoiler

As a standard action a Telekineticist may unleash a dangerous blast to rip apart their enemies with a blast of Force energy. The Force Blast it is a ranged touch attack. These attacks deal 1d6+1/class level damage. You may invest more Hands to add 1d6/Hand to the damage. You may not invest more Hands in than you have levels in The Telekineticist.

You may attack more people with the attack by taking a -2 penalty to hit for each target after the first. These targets need not be near each other, but must all be within the range of your Hands, you must have Line of Sight to them, and no target may targeted more than once with the same use of Force Blast.

In addition to dealing damage, any target hit with a Force Blast must make a Fortitude save or suffer a Rider effect for 1 round. You gain one Rider effect at first level, another at level 5, and 1 more for each additional 5 Levels after 5. You may only have 1 Rider effect active per Force Blast, but may choose from any of the ones you know.

Riders:

Level	Rider Effect
1	Target is Confused
5	Target is center of a Shatter Spell *(see below for changes)
10	Target is Nauseated
15	Target is Stunned
20	Target is Paralyzed

*The Shatter functions as a normal Shatter spell except as noted below:
It is always the 5ft burst. It targets all material in the area regardless of composition. All attended items get a Fortitude saving throw of 10+1/2 Class Levels+Charisma modifier. An object only needs to save once per Force Blast, no matter how many Shatters overlap.

How is that?

[bobthe6th]

2d6 + class level is still a good bit...
Also, force damage tends to come in d4s...
How about 1d6+1/2 levels +1d6 hand max half level?

[Re'ozul]

That new version of force blast looks good but has some problems as well:

Damage: Good, nothing needs changing here. Its a max of 20d6+20, so average 90hp with a standard action on one target. Still nicely powerful but not overly so.

Riders:
Confused: Too powerful for lvl 1 (maybe replace with sickened)
Shatter: At lvl 5 this means you very likely break all the enemy's stuff thats not magical. Later when magical things become common its usefulness is reduced unless you count magical items under "all composition".
Nauseated: seems okay, still nicely strong.
Stunned: Makes sense
Paralyzed: makes no sense to me.

[DerTollUdo]

The damage I feel is on that line of "not useless, and not so powerful it is the best choice forever." It is also able to become an AOE with reducing chances to hit. It will also take about 1/3 of your max Hands at level 20 to pull off.

Riders:
Confused: I chose this one because it is strong, but not useless. I hate sickened because to me it feels like it is a waste. I would never chose it in game because I never feel like it would solve anything. It also isn't the most powerful thing that players are doing at level 1: Monks stun, Wizards blind and other things, Bards fascinate, etc.

Shatter: They get a save for the stuff they are holding, and the DC is only 12+ Cha mod at level 5. Should really always be passable. For those rare times they fail, you just weakened your enemy...or blew up their house. Keep in mind, a Warlock can do this all day long at level 1.

Nauseated: Strong but not overly so

Stunned: Basically Nauseated +

Paralyzed: What doesn't make sense? Felt like a simple progression to me. Progressively worse physical ailments that culminate in the worst one at level 20.

Any other issues? Or thoughts on it?

[Re'ozul]

My problem with confuse: Your examples can't do those things all day. While WotC overcompensated when it came to at-will abilities by making them pretty weak, throwing confuse on two enemies at once at-will at lvl 1 is a bit much in my opinion.
I know Sickened is generally pretty weak, but at level 1 you really aren't supposed to be able to take enemies out of combat at-will at all.

Shatter has the problem that an enemy has lots of things on them. If you ignore composition (and from the way its phrased also weight) you have:
Armor, weapon, backpack/pouch, potion flasks and if the DM wants to screw with you even coins of money.
Though even if the DM doesn't want to **** with you and its still non-magic only you have weapon, armor, shield and some of the loot you'd normally get.

Paralyzed: Mechanically I understand it, but I like fluff in my mechanics. I have trouble figuring out a way how a blast of force could paralyze you.
Confuse: Rattled the head, inner ear problem, loss of balance etc.
Nauseated: Stronger waves able to wobble internal organs
Stunned: like a blow to the temple
Paralyzed: I have nothing

[Veklim]

Paralysed: Complete synaptic overload. Motor functions become impaired as the body resonates with sympathetic harmonics. Perhaps they shake violently on the spot, but the overall effect is that of paralysis.

I'd suggest moving confused to 5th and doing sickened at 1st. Remember it's not quite as good as a spell but it keeps coming all day and all night if it needs to. Also, this is a bonus effect, the main event is the damage at early levels, it's only later that you start to get truly effective riders, and that's why the power stays relevant. Nothing wrong with sickened on creatures with few HD, once you get Confused you'll never look back, but then again, once you can paralyse, why bother with any of the others anyhow?

The damage/Hand is a little high, gives you (Level +1)D6 + Level damage, which is still pretty big. Additional Hands up to 1/2 Level makes a good deal more sense tbh.

With regards to the shatter thing, why not just say anything which would be affected by a shatter spell takes 2D4/Hand (max 1/2 Level) damage instead?

All we need do to the hurling object half of Force Blast is make it 25lb/2 levels and it comes back in line with the changes stated above instantly.

[DerTollUdo]

What if we put shatter at first? As otherwise, it has no place. And make it so that if something could be targeted it takes 1d4/2 Hands in damage. I really wanna keep the shatter and make it work because i really like the mental image of a TK shattering a crapload of stuff. It looks so cool. But it is almost useless if it only breaks fragile things, and too powerful if it breaks everything. Too many saves slow down combat, but there needs to be some. Perhaps make it the burst but you can only target 1 object/ target in the burst?

[DerTollUdo]

Side question. Minesweeper: is there any reason it cannot apply to all search checks? You are spending a feat to get it. And the wording should be an emanation centefed on you and out to the range of your mind's eye ability.

[Veklim]

No reason it can't apply to all search checks, aye. I made it a cone because it still requires a lot of concentration to search large areas so fast, and I didn't want to nullify the entire point of the search/traps mechanic!

With regards to shatter, I'm suggesting we remove the ability from the rider list and make it integral to the power itself, so anything vulnerable to the shatter spell takes extra damage from this power, along with any applicable rider. Seems like the best of both worlds to me this way, and we can always consider feat/upgrade options for improving/increasing the effects and possible targets for such after the fact...

Let me know what you think of the PrC btw, it's first draft so it will be rough and ready but I wanna know if I'm on the right track with it!

Regardless of the above, I just got married and I'm off on honeymoon for a week, so don't expect to hear from me until next Monday or so!!!

\\//_ Peace out peeps!

[Re'ozul]

Thoughts on Prc:

Chassis looks okay.

Mind Drain is nice and thematically appropriate.

Ambusher is strangely worded:
I guess you mean that if you have 3d6 natural sneak attack and wanted to use a feat that needs 4d6 you'd need to invest at least 2 hands to make it work?
The advanced ability mentions threatening sneak attacks, I don't know what that means unless you simply mean that they behave as if they were wielded by a being with the levels of sneak attack necessary. This is fun as you can flank with your own weapons, effectively always doing sneak attack damage.
Depending on how force blast gets reduced in damage, the superior ability's bonus can be quite massive.
A Charisma based class rolling a bluff check ... for most people that will most likely mean an instant success.

Move through darkness:
How does the ability itself provoke AoOs when its Supernatural?
I like this one, though at 10th level it means you will be outpacing most anyone. Furthermore you'll be able to kite enemies very effectively.
Optimization question: would it count if you have Darkness permanencied on you?

Far Trick: Useful, I like that they still get those.

Larceny Focus: So up to a +20 on those checks. Now you can steal everything.

Helping Hand: I don't know how well helping others in this way gels with the rogueish feel of the class, but its a great way to do something in decisive situations. Especially if the person you are helping isn't aware of it. The fighter'll think his weapon is somehow more magical than he thought etc.

Dark Highway: Useful offensively if you need to scatter enemies.

Predator's gaze: Yikes, Bosses just got a lot more managable.

Commit to shadows: The limit on affected HD is very necessary here as that is an awesome capstone. However, it'll probably just lead to a lot of DMs just boosting HDs as its an SR-no, ranged touch attack with no save. So usually at that point in leveling its more or less a guaranteed effect.

[bobthe6th]

Intresting... only thing that bothers me is the cap stone, as it ill defines were the creatuer is dumped(what with the shadow plane being coterminus with the matierial...)

perhaps a schuchimaru esque strangaling shadosws that lets you constrict with hands in a grapple? or choke them on shadows, starting sufication?