Lorechaser fixing

[Mikeavelli]

Hello!

I didn't create this class, but a player in a game I'm running wants to play it.

The Lorechaser

It's easily more powerful than any conventional base class (high HP, luck rerolls, defensive abilities that pretty much ensure it will never die) - basically a diviner/rogue/fortunes friend with more hp than any of it's constituent classes, and only slightly lacking in the offense department.

It's a pretty high-op game though, so I'm considering letting it in with a few nerfs, and wanted feedback from ya'll:

HP: lower to d4
Skills: 6 per level
Remove: ALL the luck stuff

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All of you probably have more experience with this stuff than I do, so what do you think?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Especially in a high-op game, I would actually recommend raising the power of the class. The defensive abilities are nice, but not that ridiculous, and the offense is crap. Reroll all you want-- you don't have access to good weapons without spending feats/dips, and even with something like a scythe, your offense will lag behind a mage, Tome of Battle class, or, probably, even a well-built barbarian.

It's probably playable as a skillmonkey type, but that's hardly a claim to power. But your proposed nerfs will render it virtually useless. You're cutting the health in half and removing all of the unique abilities. It already relies on manipulating rolls and hoping for critical hits; taking out the luck will leave it with nothing but skills, a few drops of divination magic, and a little bit of Charisma-to-X.

[Mikeavelli]

If he feels like dishing out a lot of damage he can grab Power Attack and a wand of Wraithstrike, especially if I were keeping the HD at d8. This is just the quickest example that comes to mind, and is by no means the only (or even most effective) way to tweak out this particular class. My players tend to be very creative.

If he feels like staying back (more probable) - he can plink away with a ranged weapon or use UMD wands to plink or buff with the money he saves by not buying expensive weapons or armor, and never be seriously threatened.

My goal is to bring this more in line, powerwise, with the nearest official equivalent, which I see as the Beguiller.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Originally Posted by Mikeavelli

and never be seriously threatened.

I wonder where you're getting this from... apart from Lucky Star, none of the defensive abilities are particularly overpowering, unless I'm missing something. Evasion, a minor boost to saving throws, Charisma to AC in light armor, Uncanny Dodge, and Charisma to (already weak) Will saves. And even Lucky Star isn't that terrible-- uses are limited to (Class Level) per day, and a reroll doesn't mean an automatic success.

Also, if class effectiveness relies on UMD, there's probably something missing.

[Mikeavelli]

The Luck +x bonuses raise the "low" saves to one below what a "high" save would be.

The existing luck feats mostly provide one luck point per feat, and are tremendously limited until you go further up the chain. Having only 5 luck points that you can spend, and being far more limited in the kind of rolls you can reroll, is still worth the significant feat investment.

If he's come wanting to play this class, hes found a way to make it powerful. My main concern now is him having an innate advantage over other existing classes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Originally Posted by Mikeavelli

The Luck +x bonuses raise the "low" saves to one below what a "high" save would be.

OH NOES! The ability is so much more hideously powerful than, say, Divine Grace! And no class can have all good saves and be balanced! The horror!

If he's come wanting to play this class, hes found a way to make it powerful. My main concern now is him having an innate advantage over other existing classes.

Relax. As someone who has done a fair amount of both homebrewing and DMing, I'm going to say "relax." Players often pick classes because they look cool, not because they think they can make them overpowered. My recommendation is to trust your player, especially since you identify it as a high-op game. If you're really worried, tell him that you reserve the right to make changes if it does turn out to be overshadowing the rest of the party. (I very much doubt that it will, given the aforementioned lack of offense outside the UMD skill)

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[peacenlove]

I would make some of its abilities supernatural rather than extraordinary.
However a battle sorcerer is always superior to this class, and a battle sorcerer is considered a downgrade from the original.
The only think I would ban is the "choose result" ability in conjunction with vorpal weapons. It was banned in the Test of Spite for a good reason.

[Mikeavelli]

Perhaps I have indeed been too harsh on this class.