Bleach V: Well that was a waste of time (Fullbring? What's that?)

[HandofShadows]

I would like to point out a little something. We always knew that Yamamoto had the strongest spiritual preasure. And according to her bio (The Bleach data book?), Retsu Unohana Captain of the 4th had the third stongest Captain (Note she had been Captain of the 4th since it's creation). Jūshirō Ukitake and Shunsui Kyōraku always seemed be be about on pare with each other and that would have put them at 4/5. So that kind of left the #2 spot open.

As for why Chojiro was taken out so quickly by Ichigo way back when, it may have simple been overconfidence. He didn't expect Ichigo to be so fast or so strong (and use quite such a "direct" style) and left himself open to get decked.

[lord_khaine]

I would like to point out a little something. We always knew that Yamamoto had the strongest spiritual preasure. And according to her bio (The Bleach data book?), Retsu Unohana Captain of the 4th had the third stongest Captain (Note she had been Captain of the 4th since it's creation). Jūshirō Ukitake and Shunsui Kyōraku always seemed be be about on pare with each other and that would have put them at 4/5. So that kind of left the #2 spot open.

I dont know about this, it were allways my impression that Shunsui were nr 2 there, and if Ukitake isnt officialy nr 3, then its only because his bad health push him down to nr 4.

[Mercenary Pen]

Well, I'd treated the Shihakusho as being proof of Sasakibe having a bankai (since the only wearer who hasn't had a bankai was Kenpachi Zaraki) since the Turn Back the Pendulum arc- but it's nice to see that confirmed...

I think we got the chance to briefly see Sasakibe in battle during one of the anime exclusive arcs though- up against the manifestation of his own Zanpakutou...

With regards to the discussion of fashion in soul society, if the anime was ongoing, I'd say that would end up in a filler episode (either through Urahara trying to market it, or as part of the efforts of the shinigami women's association).

[Psyren]

Originally Posted by HandofShadows

I would like to point out a little something. We always knew that Yamamoto had the strongest spiritual preasure. And according to her bio (The Bleach data book?), Retsu Unohana Captain of the 4th had the third stongest Captain (Note she had been Captain of the 4th since it's creation). Jūshirō Ukitake and Shunsui Kyōraku always seemed be be about on pare with each other and that would have put them at 4/5. So that kind of left the #2 spot open.

The book also has both Gin and Kenpachi being weaker than Soi Fon and Hitsugaya, so take it with a grain of salt. It also has Kenpachi being considerably weaker than Tosen despite beating him.

And the #2 spot went to Aizen, since only Yama was stronger.

[lord_khaine]

The book also has both Gin and Kenpachi being weaker than Soi Fon and Hitsugaya, so take it with a grain of salt. It also has Kenpachi being considerably weaker than Tosen despite beating him.

I dont see the problem with this, Hitsugaya managet to win first round against Espada nr 3 while being alone, and Soi Fon did manage to take down nr 2 with a bit of help.

Nor is it unlikely that Tosen manage to lose against a opponent who is weaker than himself, if he gets to overconfident and forget just what kind of psyko he is fighting.

[darksolitaire]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

I dont see the problem with this, Hitsugaya managet to win first round against Espada nr 3 while being alone, and Soi Fon did manage to take down nr 2 with a bit of help.

Kenpachi took on Zero Espada, and Gin kills you with one hit from his Bankai, unless you are Aizen with infused Hoygouky.

[Drolyt]

Those stats just showed how good they were in certain areas, they aren't supposed to be added up to create a captain ranking.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

I dont see the problem with this, Hitsugaya managet to win first round against Espada nr 3 while being alone, and Soi Fon did manage to take down nr 2 with a bit of help.

Nor is it unlikely that Tosen manage to lose against a opponent who is weaker than himself, if he gets to overconfident and forget just what kind of psyko he is fighting.

Just a bit of a stickler, but Hitsugaya didn't win crap. He said Harribel would die once all those little flowers fell, but lo and behold she was just fine once she was broken out, which I'm not convinced she couldn't have done on her own.

[lord_khaine]

Kenpachi took on Zero Espada, and Gin kills you with one hit from his Bankai, unless you are Aizen with infused Hoygouky.

Kenpachi didnt do that alone, and he were up against an opponent who were actualy more stupid than himself for a change.

As for Gin, he still needs to hit, and so far his rate of succes isnt to good, we cant know if there are other ways to avoid it as well.

Just a bit of a stickler, but Hitsugaya didn't win crap. He said Harribel would die once all those little flowers fell, but lo and behold she was just fine once she was broken out, which I'm not convinced she couldn't have done on her own.

It wasnt crap he won, it was a fight.

He managet to capture his opponent in ice according to his fighting style, and she stayed there until someone else came and broke her out.

And im firmly convinced that its something she could not have done on her own, or else she would have done so.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by Psyren

The book also has both Gin and Kenpachi being weaker than Soi Fon and Hitsugaya, so take it with a grain of salt. It also has Kenpachi being considerably weaker than Tosen despite beating him.

And the #2 spot went to Aizen, since only Yama was stronger.

Well pulling those up briefly yields:

Kenpachi: Offense (100), Defense (80), Mobility (60), Kidō/Reiatsu (0), Intelligence (50), Physical Strength (100). Total: 390/600

Hitsugaya: Offense (80), Defense (80), Mobility (90), Kidō/Reiatsu (90), Intelligence (80), Physical Strength (80). Total: 500/600.

Soi Fon: Offense (80), Defense (60), Mobility (100), Kidō/Reiatsu (60), Intelligence (60), Physical Strength (100). Total: 460/600

Given that there's a big fat zero in there, doesn't use shunpo just moves really fast, and of course that Kenpachi if not precisely dumb isn't exactly brainy its no wonder he's got comparatively low stats overall... but that's like complaining about a Fighter not have strong Int or Cha, what does it cost him?

[thubby]

also worth mentioning is that the scale doesn't represent his rietsu (which is enormous) properly because they inexplicably linked it to kido (which he cant use).

[lord_khaine]

Thanks for providing that information, it does help to clear the disussion.

Given that there's a big fat zero in there, doesn't use shunpo just moves really fast, and of course that Kenpachi if not precisely dumb isn't exactly brainy its no wonder he's got comparatively low stats overall... but that's like complaining about a Fighter not have strong Int or Cha, what does it cost him?

Well, to start with it would lock him out of the combat expertise feats, and that include some of the best tactical combat feats there is, like improved trip.

It would also be an annoyance if he were forced to act out his low Int

also worth mentioning is that the scale doesn't represent his rietsu (which is enormous) properly because they inexplicably linked it to kido (which he cant use).

I dont agree on this, while his Riatsu is enormous, then he cant actively use it for anything, making that 0 a fair score for him.
And at the same time the passive defense it provides him are represented by his defense score, who are quite high for a guy whose idea of fighting defensively is start trying to block some of the attacks

[thubby]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

I dont agree on this, while his Riatsu is enormous, then he cant actively use it for anything, making that 0 a fair score for him.
And at the same time the passive defense it provides him are represented by his defense score, who are quite high for a guy whose idea of fighting defensively is start trying to block some of the attacks

he's been known to use its concussive force.

though if you're going to give him a 0 for that, you have to give a 0 to everyone that isn't byakuya or yamamoto, as they're the only ones that use kido on anyone that's a legitimate threat. even in the face of death.

[lord_khaine]

he's been known to use its concussive force.

I dont recall a singel time where it has been used as anything but a passive buff to his offensive and defensive power, can you give an actual reference to this?

though if you're going to give him a 0 for that, you have to give a 0 to everyone that isn't byakuya or yamamoto, as they're the only ones that use kido on anyone that's a legitimate threat. even in the face of death.

No, its Kidō/Reiatsu, and since Hitsugaya gets a 90 here, while Kenpachi scores 0, then i think we can logicaly conclude that the Reiatsu part covers the use of whatever active abilities you have gained though your Zanpaktou, something thats both Hitsugaya's specialty, and something Kenpachi dont have.

[thubby]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

I dont recall a singel time where it has been used as anything but a passive buff to his offensive and defensive power, can you give an actual reference to this?

No, its Kidō/Reiatsu, and since Hitsugaya gets a 90 here, while Kenpachi scores 0, then i think we can logicaly conclude that the Reiatsu part covers the use of whatever active abilities you have gained though your Zanpaktou, something thats both Hitsugaya's specialty, and something Kenpachi dont have.

the most obvious is when he fights espada #5.

that would mean mayuri (100), whos only kido/magic is a manufactured chemical is more powerful than byakuya's (90) lightning, shields, bindings, and weird magic sword things from his bankai.
i dont buy that.

edit: offense and defense are derivative values. that has implications.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think Zaraki's use of reiatsu is covered mostly under Offense since his use of it is basically let it leak out and is less refined then even simple kido. Everything a Soul Reaper does is basically use spiritual power at a basic level afterall. While we can argue they made a mistake It would seem evident they meant kido (and kido-like abilities) such as Hitsugaya being able to freeze things that are more polished conceptually then just slinging a lot of power around which is what Kenpachi does.

[thubby]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

I think Zaraki's use of reiatsu is covered mostly under Offense since his use of it is basically let it leak out and is less refined then even simple kido. Everything a Soul Reaper does is basically use spiritual power at a basic level afterall. While we can argue they made a mistake It would seem evident they meant kido (and kido-like abilities) such as Hitsugaya being able to freeze things that are more polished conceptually then just slinging a lot of power around which is what Kenpachi does.

every ability is covered under offense or defense because those stats are influenced by the others.

and i just made the point that if you include sword abilities you have to explain a lot of weirdness in the stats

[lord_khaine]

the most obvious is when he fights espada #5.

As i remember that fight, then what he does is to get cut up a lot until it gets boring, where he then starts to cut his opponents arms off.

that would mean mayuri (100), whos only kido/magic is a manufactured chemical is more powerful than byakuya's (90) lightning, shields, bindings, and weird magic sword things from his bankai.
i dont buy that.

To start with we actualy hear from Shunsui that Mayuri is apperently really skilled at kido, so just because we hasnt seen him do anything but play around with chemicals, it doesnt mean he cant do other things as well.

Because really, what he has done with those chemicals have been impressive enough anyway, like their instant paralysation of espada level opponents, or regeneration from having lost about ½ your torse.

edit: offense and defense are derivative values. that has implications.

Is this something official or just an oppinion?

[thubby]

To start with we actualy hear from Shunsui that Mayuri is apperently really skilled at kido

i dont trust kubo enough to buy into informed abilities.

and again, if he had it, he didnt use it despite feeling his enemy warranted using bankai on.
and the case of uryu obliterating him, in the face of near death.

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

Is this something official or just an oppinion?

in what way could it not be true?

being able to spew lighning (kido) from your hands would definitely make you have more offense.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

To start with we actualy hear from Shunsui that Mayuri is apperently really skilled at kido, so just because we hasnt seen him do anything but play around with chemicals, it doesnt mean he cant do other things as well.

Because really, what he has done with those chemicals have been impressive enough anyway, like their instant paralysation of espada level opponents, or regeneration from having lost about ½ your torse.

Given the practically zero separation AFAIK between magic and technology with Soul Reapers I think Mayuri's mad science directly reflects his kido mastery. He's just not specialized in (or at least using) the two well defined paths we see most.

Originally Posted by thubby

i dont trust kubo enough to buy into informed abilities.

and again, if he had it, he didnt use it despite feeling his enemy warranted using bankai on.
and the case of uryu obliterating him, in the face of near death.

Your level of trust has no precisely zero bearing on canon and is irrelevant.

Now if this were say a versus thread and you want to take a position that "never uses them so won't" it would be a fair point, because obviously for whatever reason good or bad they broadly speaking don't use the various spells. This is entirely different then whether or not they actually have the ability, where Informed means they do.

in what way could it not be true?

being able to spew lighning (kido) from your hands would definitely make you have more offense.

When its not what was meant by the ranking by those that wrote it of course. If they're not derived values then there not derived values. You want to argue that the word is being misused okay, but then its being misused for whatever is being ranked.

It by contrast is my opinion that Offense is fairly consistent in this context for being basic brawling prowess. Zaraki can hit really hard and fast with a sword and otherwise make mincemeat out of you if you are an idiot enough to try and take him on in a stand-up fight.

Where kido separates is in letting you do more then brawl. Yamamoto and Kenpachi have the same offense rating of 100... but when the former of the two swings his sword it also burns down a town from the high level fire effects Yamamot can generate. Which Kenpachi has absolutely nothing similar with. And thats still a fairly straight difference, at some point special abilities don't even enter into the stats.

[thubby]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Your level of trust has no precisely zero bearing on canon and is irrelevant.
.

ok, to rephrase. informed abilities have been wrong so many times because kubo sucks at keeping track of his own canon. which makes something from any 1/2 way decent fanfic as likely to be true as an informed ability. i didn't feel like being that harsh on kubo, but at the end of it all the fact remains that unless we SEE it, theres no reason to think its true.
and thanks to trollzen even THAT's contestable -,-

[lord_khaine]

and again, if he had it, he didnt use it despite feeling his enemy warranted using bankai on.
and the case of uryu obliterating him, in the face of near death.

Yeah, and thats most likely because going bankai would allow him to lean back and observe the fight between his opponent and that aberation he calls his zanpactou.

As for the near dead experience he had, then i cant see how you can say anything from that, it wasnt like he were in any state to do anything else than run away.

in what way could it not be true?

being able to spew lighning (kido) from your hands would definitely make you have more offense.

Actualy no, if you could swing your sword hard enough, and fast enough then the use of lightning would be an inferior option.

[thubby]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

Actualy no, if you could swing your sword hard enough, and fast enough then the use of lightning would be an inferior option.

would you argue someone who could swing their sword hard and fast plus shoot lightning doesn't have a better offense than someone who can only swing the sword
(assuming their sword skills are the same, obv)

[Psyren]

I don't trust rankings that say Soi Fon has more physical strength than Yamamoto. It's ridiculous.

[DiscipleofBob]

Yeah, the supposed "official" numbers are really off the wall when you actually sit down and compare them. I wouldn't put any stock into them whatsoever.

[darksolitaire]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Where kido separates is in letting you do more then brawl. Yamamoto and Kenpachi have the same offense rating of 100... but when the former of the two swings his sword it also burns down a town from the high level fire effects Yamamot can generate. Which Kenpachi has absolutely nothing similar with. And thats still a fairly straight difference, at some point special abilities don't even enter into the stats.

Um... 4:15-4:30. Give more credit to Kenpachi

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by Psyren

I don't trust rankings that say Soi Fon has more physical strength than Yamamoto. It's ridiculous.

Why not? He's an old man, and she's the captain most focused on hand to hand combat. Sure he'd kick her ass in a fight, but if we look only at physical strength I don't see a problem.

[Anteros]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Why not? He's an old man, and she's the captain most focused on hand to hand combat. Sure he'd kick her ass in a fight, but if we look only at physical strength I don't see a problem.

Probably because he's a giant mountain of muscle and she's a 5 foot tall girl. It's pretty much a physical impossibility that she's stronger than him.

[Frozen_Feet]

*ahem*

Supernatural setting. Ichigo is wimpy compared to Kenpachi, but is undoubtedly stronger. Yachiru, despite being, like, seven years old physically, can pick up and carry Ken-chan effortlessly. Menos Grande Gillian, who are sky-scraper-size monstroties, are explicitly weaker than human-sized Vasto Lorde.

Soi-Fon may have the body of 12-year-old girl, but that doesn't preclude her from being insanely powerful in this setting.

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by Anteros

Probably because he's a giant mountain of muscle and she's a 5 foot tall girl. It's pretty much a physical impossibility that she's stronger than him.

Uh... sorry, but since you're here I can presume you read manga or at least watch anime? How often does physical size mean anything in this medium? Seriously? I mean, look at the physically strongest characters in Naruto. Of them, only Raikage has any mass; Tsunade and Gai are both tiny. Or Dragon Ball. Goku as a kid was insanely strong despite not having any mass on him; he became more realistically muscled as an adult, but there were still plenty of muscle-free characters who nevertheless had insane strength.