2/28/2013 - Update on Thumb
12/31/2012 - There's a New Comic
12/12/2012 - The "Lost" Holiday Ornament (and Child's Play)
11/26/2012 - Leftover OOTS Swag on Sale (+Thumb Report)
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Order of the Stick 888 Dream Wedding
Erfworld 163 The End of Book One
Erfworld Now at Erfworld.com!
RSS Feeds: OOTS

The Duke's Wolf, Part Four by Amber E. Scott
The Duke's Wolf, Part Three by Amber E. Scott
The Duke's Wolf, Part Two by Amber E. Scott

The New World, Part 9: Barbarians by Rich Burlew
The New World, Part 8: Gnomes by Rich Burlew
The New World, Part 7: Names and Cultures by Rich Burlew
Looking for the Gaming Articles?

 



Welcome back! Be sure you have read and understand the Forum Rules.


Go Back   Giant in the Playground Forums > Gaming > Homebrew Design
Register FAQ Members List Mark Forums Read End

Homebrew Design Roll up your sleeves and get working: there's lots of homebrewin' to be done! Post your custom creation for critiques or review those of your peers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-16-2012, 06:11 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

THIS CLASS OUTGREW ITS THREAD, NEW THREAD HERE.


Wikipedia-like Cross-indexing:
The Protector-A class very much like this class in high-level concept, but with a very different execution.
The Fanatic - Seems to be just about the diametrical opposite of this class.
The Grace-Gift
Introductory Fluff
Spoiler


Important notes to players: This class is probably stronger than it looks at first glance, but it may require a close reading to see that power. At the same time, it is probably more possible than with most classes to get yourself into a "dead end". Not all the bonus feats are created equal (but then again, things that are poor options for any other class may prove useful for this one), and there is even one class feature(Mobile Defender, currently found at level 13) that requires a specific feat to give any benefit. Read ahead a few levels from where you are actually working when building or leveling up a Grace-Gift. It is my intent to add a "Suggestions for Playing a Grace-Gift" section at the end, covering both character design and equipping suggestions, as well as my best guesses on how to actually play one effectively when in "exploring" or "combat" modes.

Brief warning to GMs: Think VERY carefully before allowing this class as a Cohort or anything like that. It is pretty exploitable in that role. It also may Gestalt a bit TOO well with sorcerer or other "squishy" classes.

Game Rule information
Abilities: Charisma is important for many grace-gift abilities. Strength helps out with the attacks of opportunity that are the only thing approaching offense that grace-gifts are skilled with (and they are QUITE good at them at later levels). Strength is also vital to good use of the Carry the Burden ability, which allows you to lift your allies into the air by accepting the burden of gravity in their stead. Constitution helps with your Gift of Tolerance and Gift of Breath abilities, although, depending on circumstances, you might not need a LOT of it. Dexterity and Constitution are important because you have few protections against weapons (especially initially), and what defenses you DO have, you often will want to give away from time to time. You will also be loaning others the benefits of your base saving throws, so, together with Wisdom, these will ensure that you can survive doing so (but their benefits in this second regard are strictly secondary to charisma once you move beyond your initial array of abilities and gain the Divine Grace class feature).

Alignment: Any Good and/or Any Lawful

Starting Gold: 6d4 x 5 gp (75 gp on average)
Starting Age: As per fighter.

Hit-die
d12

Class Skills:
The class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Heal(Wis), Jump(Str), Knowledge[Local] (Int), Knowledge[Nobility and Royalty] (Int), Knowledge[Religion] (Int), Profession(Wis), Ride(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Speak Language(N/A), Spellcraft(Int), Survival(Wis), Swim(Str), Tumble(Dex), Use Rope(Dex)

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.

LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecial
1st
+0
+2
+2
+2
A General Rule, Aura, Divine Protection(Deflection), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to all Saves), Gift of Shielding, Gift of Tolerance, Swift to Protect, Defensive Strike (Damage Bonus), Bonus Feat(I), Life Saver(Stabilize, Long-term Care, Treat Bleeding Wound, Treat caltrop-etc wound)
2nd
+1
+3
+3
+3
Divine Grace, Bonus Feat(I), Helpful, Master of the Healing-ward
3rd
+1
+3
+3
+3
Defensive Strike(To-hit), Bonus Feat(I or II), Status 1/day, Courage, Carry the Burden(1 ally, levitate), Enhanced Defensive Strike(Magic), Hands of the Healer(Treat Blindness/Deafness, Ability Score Penalties)
4th
+2
+4
+4
+4
Bonus Feat(I or II), Life Saver(Treat Poison and Disease), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to 2 Save Types), Gift of Time(+20' movement)
5th
+2
+4
+4
+4
Carry the Burden(1 ally, fly), Gift of Breath, Gift of Soul, Helping Hand 1/day
6th
+3
+5
+5
+5
Defensive Strike(Class level x 1.5 damage), Gift of Time(Move Action), Hands of the Healer(Treat Ability Drain, Negative Levels, Level Drain)
7th
+3
+5
+5
+5
Carry the Burden(2 allies), Enhanced Defensive Strike(1 alignment or Ghost-Touch), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to 1 Save Type)
8th
+4
+6
+6
+6
Divine Protection(15' Radius), Gift of Time (20' range), Status 2/day
9th
+4
+6
+6
+6
Bonus Feat(I to IV), Gift of Life(Raise Dead), Gift of Resistance(Boost Multiple Saves)
10th
+5
+7
+7
+3
Carry the Burden(3 allies), Defensive Strike(Class level x 2 damage), Gift of Shielding (Swift or Standard Action), Gift of Time(Only Requires a Full-Round action)
11th
+5
+7
+7
+7
Bonus Feat(I to VI)((REd because moved from 12th level)), Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine), Hands of the Healer(remove drained levels up to 1 week/grace-gift level), Shield of the Soul
12th
+6/+1
+8
+8
+8
Divine Protection(Sacred/Profane), Gift of Time (30' range), Helping Hand 2/day
13th
+6/+1
+8
+8
+8
Gift of Life(Resurrection), Hands of the Healer(Take 10), Matchless Loyalty, Mobile Defender
14th
+7/+2
+9
+9
+9
Carry the Burden(4 allies), Bonus Feat(I to VII), Status At-Will
15th
+7/+2
+9
+9
+9
Enhanced Defensive Strike(2 alignments and/or Ghost-Touch), Gift of Shielding (Immediate, Swift or Standard Action), Gift of Time(Grant Swift, Standard, OR Move Action)
16th
+8/+3
+10
+10
+10
Defensive Strike(Class level x 3 damage), Shield of the Soul(Area)
17th
+8/+3
+10
+10
+10
Bonus Feat(I to IX), Carry the Burden(5 allies), Gift of Foresight, Gift of Life(True Resurrection)
18th
+9/+4
+11
+11
+11
Divine Protection(Insight), Gift of Time (40' range)
19th
+9/+4
+11
+11
+11
Bonus Feat(I to IX), Shield of the Soul (class level+10)
20th
+10/+5
+12
+12
+12
Gift of Time(Give Move+Standard action), Gift of Resistance(Half Penalties)

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the grace-gift.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The Grace-gift is proficient with one type of simple melee weapon OR with one type of melee weapon that naturally deals subdual damage(such as a whip or sap, or one-handed/two-handed versions of a sap) OR with nets. They are also proficient with Bolas, but ONLY when making trip attacks with them rather than attempting to deal damage.

If they pick nets, then, for purpose of threatened areas for attacks of opportunity they treat nets as a melee weapon with reach. Thus they can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe. They do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making an attack of opportunity of their own with a net.

They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.
Because the somatic components for a grace-gift's spell-like abilities are simpler than those used by wizards and sorcerers, a grace-gift can use those abilities while either unarmored or wearing light armor without needing to roll for arcane spell failure. However, like almost all arcane spell casters (and despite the fact that they themselves are divine spellcasters), a grace-gift wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of spell failure (all their spell-like abilities, have somatic components unless otherwise noted). A multi-class grace-gift still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from levels in other classes.

A General Rule(Ex?):
Spoiler


Aura(Ex):
Spoiler


Bonus Feats:
Spoiler


Divine Protection(Su):
Spoiler


Gift of Resistance(Sp):
Spoiler


Gift of Shielding (Sp):
Spoiler


Gift of Tolerance(Sp):
Spoiler


Swift to Protect(Ex):
Spoiler


Defensive Strike(Ex):
Spoiler


Life Saver(Ex):
Spoiler


Divine Grace (Su):
Spoiler


Helpful(Ex):
Spoiler


Master of the Healing-ward(Ex):
Spoiler


Courage(Ex):
Spoiler


Carry the Burden(Sp):
Spoiler


Enhanced Defensive Strike (Su):
Spoiler


Hands of the Healer(Su):
Spoiler


Gift of Time(Sp):
Spoiler


Gift of Breath (Sp):
Spoiler


Gift of Soul(Su):
Spoiler


Gift of Life (Sp):
Spoiler


Shield of the Soul(Su/Sp):
Spoiler


Mobile Defender(Ex): NOTE THAT THIS REQUIRES THE BLOCKER FEAT, WHICH HAS PREREQUISITES, TO BE OF ANY USE.
Spoiler


Matchless Loyalty(Ex):
Spoiler


Gift of Foresight(Sp): At 17th level a grace-gift ((cast foresight on others only, might just allow them to do this straight up and at-will but with a limit of one such spell active at a time.))


Code of Conduct:
Committing individual Chaotic or Evil acts has no effect on a grace-gift in and of itself, but if they ever become both non-good and non-lawful they lose all grace-gift abilities with the exception of the weapon proficiency and the ability points gained from "able to bear it". She may not progress any farther in levels as a grace-gift. She regains her abilities, saves, and advancement potential if she returns to an acceptable alignment and then atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.


Bonus Feat Lists and New Feats Moved to Next Post
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 06-28-2012 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Added lots of [General] feats from psionics section. Fixed Hands of the Healer. Clarified light armored casting. Allowed weapon drawing with Swift to Protect
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2012, 07:42 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H))

Continued from previous post.

At various levels the grace-gift gains a bonus feat from the following lists. When taken in this way they do not need to meet the character level, ability score, base attack, maneuver/stance knowledge, or saving throw prerequisites of that feat. Prerequisites that take the form of other feats are required only for feats that are also on one of these lists. For example: the Improved Blocker feat requires the Combat Reflexes and Blocker feats, but, if taken in this manner does not require a +10 BAB, nor the Combat Expertise feat. They DO have to meet any class level requirements. At first and second class levels only feats from List I may be selected. At later levels access to more lists is granted.
List I:
Spoiler

List II (Grace-gift level 3):
Blocker(Requires Combat Reflexes.)
Burden Bearer*
Combat Reflexes(Special: A grace-gift who takes this feat as a grace-gift bonus feat may substitute Charisma for Dexterity for the purposes of determining how many attacks of opportunity he may make per round)
???Defensive Trip???(This feat is a rough draft at this time, and I do not consider it ready to play without further consideration.).
Enhanced Material Defense*
GET OFF OF THEM!!!*
Plague-Bane*
Improved Plague-Bane* (Requires Plague-Bane.)
Mage Slayer, Lesser*

List III (Grace gift level 5):
Combat Expertise(SPECIAL: When taken in this way this feat requires 5 ranks in Tumble)
Heavy Breather*
Improved Disarm(Requires Combat Expertise.)
Improved Gift of Protection*
??Protector's Reward*??(This feat is a rough draft at this time, and I do not consider it ready to play without further consideration.)

List IV (Grace gift level 7):
Anchoring Defense*
Cloak Dance
Energy Defense*

List V (Grace-gift level 9):
Improved Blocker(Requires the Blocker.)

List VI (Grace gift level 11):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least* (Requires Improved Toughness.)((Considering moving this whole feat chain back two class levels and adding a final one that gives +8/level.))
Improved Divine Grace* (Note this requires Great Fortitude, Improved Divine Protection, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes.)
Improved Shield of the Soul*

List VII (Grace gift level 13):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least, and Improved Toughness.)
Greater Shield of the Soul*
Improved Touch of the Grace-Gift*

List VIII (Grace gift level 15):
Grace-Gift's Toughness* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser, which, in turn, requires two other specific feats.)
Improved Mobile Defender*
Strike Anything Defensively*

List IX (Grace gift level 17):
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, which, in turn, requires three other specific feats.)
Martyr's Power* (Note that this requires 4 feats with the [Grace-Gift] descriptor and that this does NOT include any feat merely because it is on this list, it must specifically have the [Grace-Gift] tag.)

*These feats are new and specific to the class.

New Feats
Anchoring Defense [Grace-Gift]
The energy of your protection manifests a bit more obviously than most grace-gifts.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Defensive Strike with Ghost Touch.
Benefits: When you hit an incorporeal creature with a defensive strike, it must make a will save with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier. If it fails it loses the incorporeal quality for 1 round(1d4 rounds?). If it is currently at least partially within a solid object it is shunted out to the nearest open space that can fully contain it, taking 1d6 damage per 5 feet so traveled.
Special: A character with at least 7 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the save increases by 3(4?).

Burden Bearer [Grace-Gift]
"He's not heavy, he's my comrade."
Prerequisites: Carry the Burden class feature.
Benefits: Halve the amount of all load increases caused by your use of your Carry the Burden class ability.
Normal: Your load increase by the weight of the character(s) benefiting from your Carry the Burden ability plus the sum of their loads.
Special: This feat may be taken up to three times, its effects stack. The progression is 1/2, 1/4, 1/8. A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

???Defensive Trip??? [Grace-Gift]((This feat is tentative, I am just typing it up so I don't forget. Not to be used in any games without specific GM approval until I complete it.))
"Hold It!"
Prerequisites: Defensive Strike class feature granting a to-hit bonus, Grace-Gift level 3
Benefits: If you are unarmed, or if you can make trip attacks with your weapon, you may substitute trip attempts for attacks of opportunity provoked by movement. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent in this way while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. These benefits do not stack with the benefits of the Improved Trip feat and you do not get a free attack on an opponent you successfully trip in this way, even if you also have the Improved Trip feat.
Normal: You can't make trip attempts as attacks of opportunity and trip attempts provoke attacks of opportunity.
Special: A character with at least 3(2?) levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Energy Defense [Grace-Gift]
The energy of your protection manifests a bit more obviously than most grace-gifts.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Defensive Strike with an alignment type.
Benefits: Each time you make a defensive strike, you may change the bonus damage granted by your defensive strike class feature to one of the following that your defensive strikes are aligned to by your enhanced defensive strike class feature. Pick one at the time you take this feat. This can't be changed but you can take this feat again to add another option.
  • Acid, halve amount of bonus damage when using this option(Evil aligned strike)
  • Cold(Lawful aligned strike)
  • Fire(Evil aligned strike)
  • Lightning(Good aligned strike)
  • Non-lethal, this applies to all damage dealt by the strike, not just the bonus damage(Good aligned strike)
  • Sonic, halve amount of bonus damage when using this option(Chaotic aligned strike)
More importantly, you gain also gain resistance to the damage type equal to twice your grace-gift level(or four times your grace-gift level in DR/lethal damage if you gain the ability to deal subdual damage via this feat). You may use a swift, move, or standard action to transfer this resistance or damage reduction to one ally within a number of feet equal to 10+Your Grace-Gift level, rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5. This transfer lasts for one round.
Normal: Your bonus damage from defensive strike is the same type as when you are not making a defensive strike.
Special: A character with at least 7 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time select a different damage type that you qualify for your bonus damage.

Enhanced Material Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Enhanced Defensive Strike class feature.
Benefit: Select one(two?) material which a two-handed weapon for a medium sized may be made of for an additional cost of no more than 2,000 gp. When making defensive strikes your weapon counts as being made of that SPECIFIC material. for by-passing damage reduction, regeneration, and other such defenses, or for special purposes involving a specific material (for instance if you have some sort of Vampire Hunter PrC that lets you stake vampires during AoOs on a sufficiently good roll, you might wish to select "wood" so that you can stake with metal swords and other piercing weapons of appropriate length). This is IN ADDITION to any other material(s) it is made of our counts as being made of. In no case does this allow your weapon to acquire a trait that could be acquired via enhanced defensive strike, such as flame-touched iron weapons counting as [Good]. In any case other common (and valid) choices include cold iron, alchemical silver(although there is no penalty to damage with this option), Byeshk, or Targath.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you select a new (pair of) material(s).
Strike Anything Defensively [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamintine and two special features) class feature, Enhanced Material Defense emulating at least two different materials ((Give rebates on any excess instances?))
Benefit: Your defensive strikes ignore all damage reduction.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and a shield that can not take a few nicks is utterly worthless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 11, Improved Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +2/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and shields need to be strong.
Prerequisites:
Grace-gift level 13
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +3/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness[Grace-Gift]
Some shields are better-made than others.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +4/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved [Grace-Gift]
Pain is only the sign that someone is making a feeble attempt to remove you from between them and those you protect.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 17
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Grace-Gift's Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +6/level(sic). This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
GET OFF OF THEM! [Grace-Gift]
Attempting to overwhelm your teammates with numbers is... unwise.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Defensive Strike class feature granting a bonus on to-hit.
Benefit: At its most basic level you may use a full-round action to make a single melee attack on each enemy that is within your threatened area that has at least one ally (NOT COUNTING YOURSELF) within its threatened area and has made a melee attack against at least one of your allies (AGAIN, NOT COUNTING YOURSELF) since your last turn (or the start of combat if it is your first turn). These attacks are made at your full BAB and gain the to-hit bonus from Defensive Strike and half of the damage bonus of Defensive Strike. If you have the Enhanced Defensive Strike ability these attacks also have all the benefits of that ability to which your class levels and feats entitle you.

When you use the GET OFF OF THEM! feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

If your grace-gift level is at least 6 when using this ability you may instead make these attacks as a standard action.

If your grace-gift level is at least 11 and you are actually using a full round action to use this ability, then you make two such attacks on each such enemy.

If your grace-gift level is at least 16 then you may make two such attacks on each such enemy as a standard action.

Remember, you can not use this feat on your turn in any combat in which you use Swift to Protect.
((Remove limit about having attacked an ally in melee within the last round? It adds complication, and isn't very proactive... maybe have this cause a -2 or -4 to the Grace-Gift's AC for one round to make up for it.))

Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Heavy Breather [Grace-gift]
With practice, breathing for two becomes much easier.
Prerequisites: Gift of Breath class feature.
Benefits: Halve Constitution penalties for each character you are breathing for via "Gift of Breath", minimum 1 in the case of each such character.
Normal: You take penalties to constitution when breathing for other characters as per the appropriate chart.
Special: A character with at least 5 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. This feat may be taken up to three times, its effects stack. The progression is 1/2, 1/4, 1/8. The minimum constitution penalty for each creature you are breathing for remains unchanged.

Improved Divine Protection [Grace-gift]
Your protection from threats as simple as a blade is strong.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1
Benefits: When you use your Divine Protection class feature to grant at least 1 point of armor class bonus to a SINGLE ally the granted bonus is then increased by 2. When using the multitargetting version of Divine Protection, the targets gain (bonus sacrificed -1) instead of (bonus sacrificed -2) armor class.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Improved Gift of Protection [Grace-gift]
Every scrap of protection from threats more complex than a blade is yours to give as a gift... provided it was truly given to you by the gods to begin with.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Divine Grace class feature
Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus to all saving throws. This is three SEPARATE bonuses. Both these bonuses and the bonuses to saves from divine grace may now be transferred as if they were base saves.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Improved Divine Grace [Grace-gift]
When giving away every scrap of protection from threats more complex than a blade you learn to survive anyway.
Prerequisites:
Class level: Grace-gift level 11
Class feature: Divine Grace class feature
Feats: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Improved Gift of Protection, and Lightning Reflexes
Benefits: You gain a +4 bonus to all saving throws. This bonus may NOT be given away via Gift of Protection, despite the fact that you have Improved Gift of Protection. It stacks with all other bonuses.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Improved Shield of the Soul [Grace-gift]
Your soul's shield is stronger than usual.
Prerequisites: Shield of the Soul class feature
Benefits: The spell resistance granted by your Shield of the Soul increases by 2.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Greater Shield of the Soul [Grace-gift]
Your soul's shield is both adaptable and very strong.
Prerequisites: Shield of the Soul class feature, Improved Shield of the Soul, Grace Gift level 13
Benefits: The spell resistance granted by your Shield of the Soul increases by a further 2 points. This stacks with the bonus given by Shield of the Soul.
Additionally, when transferring your spell-resistance you may choose to reduce the strength of the spell-resistance(s) you grant to each ally benefiting from the transfer, thus allowing it to synergize better with their spell-resistance from other sources.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Improved Mobile Defender [Grace-gift]
Even at your most overwhelmed your protection does not flag.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Blocker, Improved Blocker, Grace-Gift level 15, Mobile Defender Class feature.
Benefits: For purposes of the Blocker and Improved Blocker feats you may take Total Defense as a free action at the end of your turn. The effects for those feats is as if you had spend a full-round action taking Total Defense. However if you use this option, any movement you make via those feats before the start of your next turn counts against your movement for said next turn, thus requiring you to expend at least a five-foot step, and quite possibly a move action, or even (in very rare cases) a double-move action.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Mage-Slayer, Lesser [Grace-gift]
It is difficult to hurt your friends with magic when you are on the job.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefits: Spellcasters you threaten may not cast spells that target one or more of your allies defensively, (they automatically fail their concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast such spells defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat. This includes harmful spells that target an area (such as Wail of the Banshee, Fireball, or Web) occupied by one or more of your allies. Remember you do not count as your own ally.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. Note that unlike the Mage-Slayer feat this does not reduce your own caster level.

Plague-Bane [Grace-Gift]
There are diseases that can bring a nation to its knees, infecting more people per day than clerics may cure. Every wise king who values the lives of his people(if only for what they provide him) has a healthy amount of fear of these things... those diseases fear YOU.
Prerequisites: Master of the Healing Ward class ability, Heal 6 ranks
Benefits: The increase to the number of people you can provide long-term care for and treat for diseases (and things that count as diseases due to Hands of the Healer if you have that ability) changes from one half your grace-gift level to twice your grace-gift level
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Improved Plague-Bane [Grace-Gift]
You fear no disease.
Prerequisites: Master of the Healing Ward class ability, Plague Bane, Heal 6 ranks
Benefits: You become immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
??Protecting Paladin?? [Grace-gift]((VERY rough draft, just jotting a rough sketch down.))
To both strike down evil and lend defense to others are two sides of the same coin.
Prerequisites: Divine Grace ability from BOTH Grace-Gift AND Paladin (Except this means that you either need to be triple-classed, human, or eating XP penalties... well I guess I could put it on the I list and you could spend a bonus feat on it).
Benefits: Removes multi-classing induced caps from all Grace-Gift abilities.
+1 to all saves? (to compensate for redundancy of Divine Grace)
If the character has the ability to turn undead as a result of his paladin levels then his grace-gift levels stack with his paladin level to determine the effectiveness of that ability. (Simply because paladin turning is weak enough already, so why not throw them a bone?)
If the character has the spell-like ability to Remove Disease as a result of his paladin levels then grace-gift levels stack with paladin levels for determining how many times per week they can do so.
Can take more levels of Paladin even if you take grace-gift levels afterward.
Stack for Mount (once you get mount? Or stack towards mount anyway?)
Stack for Defensive Strike and, if the grace-gift has the ability, Improved Defensive Strike.
Stack for Lay On Hands and Touch of the Grace-Gift points add to Lay On Hands pool (which limits what they can be used for, but allows offensive uses).
Stack for number of Smite Evils per day and maybe even for damage. (Yes, I realize this means you can end up adding charisma to your to-hit multiple times a day... assuming you can smite on an AoO, which if you can't I should consider having this feat allow, but smites aren't often enough a day anyway, so I don't think I care.)
Stack for Hands of the Healer (it is so slow anyway, and you ARE losing a bit of spell-casting).

...... so basically it stacks for everything on the paladin side except BAB and spell-casting? Seems a bit much, but then again most of the abilities are either central to the paladin's contribution to the mix (Smite Evil) or so weak that it doesn't matter much (Turn undead). Could probably drop the save bonus, and the turn undead stuff.
Special: A character grace-gift who meets the requirements listed above may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

??Protector's Reward [Grace-Gift]??(This feat is a rough draft at this time, and I do not consider it ready to play without further consideration. If I had to guess I would say that it is UNDER powered.)
After much self-sacrifice for your allies to protect them from their enemies you have been granted a token amount of balancing to the karmic scales.
Prerequisites: Defensive Strike class feature granting at least a +4? bonus to damage.
Benefits: Each time you deal damage with a defensive strike or GET OFF HIM! to a true foe who presents a true threat (both as determined by the GM) to you or your allies add whichever of the following is the SMALLEST to a running tally:
  • The amount of damage you dealt
  • Your damage bonus from Defensive Strike for that specific attack (so this will be smaller if you are using GET OFF HIM!).
  • The subject’s hit points prior to being struck, +10 if the target had a constitution score. In other words the minimum amount of damage that would be required to kill/destroy the target.
At the start of each of your turns, and at the end of combat, you are healed for one quarter(one half?) of the amount of the tally and the running tally is then reduced to zero. Hitpoints in excess of your maximum gained at the start of your turn are instead gained as temporary hitpoints which last until the end of combat. Excess hitpoints gained at the end of combat are lost.
This is a supernatural ability.
Special: A character with at least 5? levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
((Change this from 1/4 to 1/2... or maybe 1/3? Anyway, looking at "Aura of Triumph" this doesn't look so powerful after all.))


Touch of the Grace-Gift [Grace-gift]
You are able to slowly repair harm to your allies... or even yourself.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1
Benefits: A grace-gift may heal wounds with a touch (his own or those of others) by touch. Each day he can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her grace-gift level × her Charisma bonus × 4, provided her charisma modifier is 1 or greater.((Tweak this to (Charisma-10, min 1)*Level*2 so that odd points matter?)) Otherwise the amount per day is equal to twice his grace-gift level. A grace-gift may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once, however this ability may not be used on any creature that lacks both an intelligence and a constitution score, and only a number of points of healing equal to half the grace-gifts level (minimum 1) may be healed per use of this ability. Using touch of the grace-gift is a full-round spell-like with somatic components that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Note that this ability CANNOT be used to harm undead (or anything else), and heals undead (and characters with the tomb tainted soul feat, etc) perfectly well. It also is fully effective for healing any construct that has either an intelligence or constitution score (or both).
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Improved Touch of the Grace-Gift [Grace-gift]
The well of healing within you is bottomless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 13
Benefits: There is now no per-day cap on the amount of healing Touch of the Grace-Gift may provide.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Martyr's Power [Grace-Gift]((This feat is a bit over-complicated, but it is only a first draft.))
While you live, you protect those you hold dear... your death releases your soul from the need to maintain its connection to your body, allowing it to become a conduit of great power for the energy of the divine. One shining perfect moment of giving.
Prerequisites: Grace Gift level 17, Four [Grace-Gift] feats (note that this is a smaller subset of the feats that a grace-gift may take as bonus feats).
Benefits: If you are slain by an ally you may choose to activate this ability at the moment of your death. If you do so, several effects occur:
  1. You take an amount of burn to both your constitution and your strength equal to your grace-gift level. This burn is recovered at the normal rate for a living creature engaged in moderate daily activity while you are dead. If your constitution score would be lower than 1 then all attempts to revivify you fail, but only half the xp's and/or material components of such efforts fail(in the case of charged magic items the lost charge(s) may be restored by anyone with the correct item creation feat and spells at half GP and xp costs), and the person attempting the revivification gets the impression that you can be revived in approximately a certain number of days. The GM determines the amount to report by secretly rolling a number of d3s equal to half the number of days remaining rounded down. If the number of days remaining is odd he should add 1d2 to this result.
  2. The duration on any of any of your grace-gift powers currently in operation whose total duration is two rounds or less are extended by a number of rounds equal to half your grace-gift level.
  3. Similarly, the durations of any of your grace-gift effects that are continuous continue for half your grace-gift level in hours.
  4. You may use any of your Grace-gift spell-like abilities that were NOT currently in operation at the moment of your death (including the transferal sub-ability of Shield of the Soul and similar) once each at the moment of your death. In the case of Gift of Shielding the damage is transferred to your corpse. The duration of all such abilities is 1 round and may not be extended by any means. When calculating how many creatures you may apply Gift of Breath, Gift of Tolerance, or similar abilities to you may not reduce your constitution below 1 but each such ability is considered separately and, do not count anything other than the specific ability in question in each case that would decrease your constitution (such as damage, drain, penalties, or burn from other sources), note specifically that this includes the constitution burn from using this ability.
  5. Related to the above: If you have the Touch of the Grace-Gift feat you may distribute your remaining healing ability among any allies you wish who are within 5' per grace-gift level without regard for the normal per-round limit. If you have Improved Touch of the Grace-Gift then this healing is instead a total amount equal to 4 times your grace-gift level times your charisma SCORE (or your grace-gift level times 10, whichever is greater) and you may apply up to number of temporary hitpoints equal to twice your Grace-Gift level to anyone you heal to full hitpoints (or was already at full hitpoints). These excess hitpoints count against your pool of healing, and last the usual duration for temporary hit-points.
  6. All allies within 5' per your grace-gift level gain a +2 bonus to hit OR to AC for one round, as if you had successfully used the Aid Another action on each of their foes. You may select which type of bonus is received individually for each such ally.
  7. Your body can not become an undead, deathless, or be otherwise transformed as a direct result of your death (such as if you are killed by a ghoul or vampire), and gains spell-resistance equal to twice your grace-gift level against all attempts by people other than your allies (as known to you at the moment of your death) to raise it as an undead, cast speak with dead, or similar spells or abilities on it.
  8. Any creature that consumes your corpse (including by your dying after having been swallowed whole or similar) must make a will-save with a DC equal to 10+your total bonus on will saves, not counting spells or magic items. If they fail this check their attitude becomes indifferent to all your allies for a number of rounds equal to your grace-gift level. So all encompassing is this effect that immunity to Mind-Affecting effects only grants a +10 bonus on the will save. This affect is broken if the creature is harmed by any of your allies, even indirectly.
  9. You receive your normal class-based spell-resistance against Soul Bind or any equivalent effect despite having transfered your spell-resistance as part of this feat. Even if you are successfully subjected to such an effect, all counter-divination spells and effects used to conceal the location of the gem automatically fail (Including placing the gem in an Anti-magic Field if that would normally cause a problem for such divination).
  10. The caster level of any spell used in an attempt to revive you is doubled, and the cost of any material or XP components is for such a spell is halved (only half XP is consumed, and if more than the necessary amount of material component is provided, only the halved amount is actually consumed).
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.



Back-up of older stuff which is probably completely outdated:
Spoiler
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 08-01-2012 at 10:10 AM. Reason: FEATS FOR THE FEAT GOD! OPTIONS FOR THE OPTIONS THRONE!
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 11:37 AM   Top  -  End  -  #3
motionmatrix
Dwarf in the Playground
 
OldWizardGuy
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift: taking "Defender" to a whole new level (P.E.A.C.H)

I skimped over your class, I have to go deal with RL, but I will give it a through read asap.

With the quick look at the table, I would say (recall I have not really read it yet) that you should expand the bonus feats to a list (which can be as short as just the ones that are already there) that the player can pick at their pace.

Artificial choice is fantastic for players, (from a player perspective) we gobble it up.
__________________
My Homebrew stuff

[3.5/Pathfinder] Wizard Feats

[3.P] Base Class: Protector
motionmatrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 12:46 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift: taking "Defender" to a whole new level (P.E.A.C.H)

Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
With the quick look at the table, I would say (recall I have not really read it yet) that you should expand the bonus feats to a list (which can be as short as just the ones that are already there) that the player can pick at their pace.

Artificial choice is fantastic for players, (from a player perspective) we gobble it up.
Yeah, thought of doing that, problem being that I am granting some of them before they could originally be obtained, and I don't want to give access to some of the higher level stuff at first level. I can work around this, but it is going to be a wordy mess.

The lack of feats to pick from is a problem (although some that enhance SLAs could be good), but I may be making some progress on that.

Going to keep editing my newer ability/feat ideas into the same post I was before. THOSE will continue to be just as ugly of a rough draft as ever, since I am mostly just trying to not forget anything.

Will only be making cosmetic edits to the original post for now.

Thank you VERY much for your help, I am continuing to work on reviewing your "The Protector" class.
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 04-20-2012 at 08:44 PM.
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2012, 09:38 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift: taking "Defender" to a whole new level (P.E.A.C.H))

The following are my very round drafts for are the abilities I HAVEN'T added. I might or might not add any particular ones.

14th level is where this class starts really tailing off, although it may have some problems before that. EDIT: I MAY have fixed this.

Give some source of miss chances that can be given away?
Ditto for Sanctuary type effect "Shield of the Innocent"?

Taking on other's maladies is fine, but what about an ability to give away any buffs you have on you? One standard action per buff? Throws in a bit of versatility as you can shift things around a bit.

Some sort of ability to replicate the following(Go back over cleric list looking for "service to the community" type spells):
  1. Repulsion
  2. Dream Allies only.
  3. Dismissal Allies only... really I should just raid the Anchored Guardian for almost everything it can do for Prime Materal allies and which I can justify.
  4. Resilient Sphere? Allies only, not sure on cost... 5 points of con damage and 1 of burn to emulate the toughness of the sphere?
  5. Locate Creature Allies only, note that there is a better version of this at a later level on this list I think, but it might come to the same thing due to the limitations. Also Find the Path.
  6. Globe of Invulnerability. Lesser/Greater? No idea on a penalty for this. -10 to saves and SR for spells high enough level to get through the sphere?
  7. Dimensional Anchor ...no idea what the penalty for this should be, although maybe just the action, single targeting, and 1 round duration are enough... unless I give them permanent immunity to hostile teleportation effects, then let them give it away... that could actually be good, if only because I don't think I know of anything other than my Anchored Guardian that has such an immunity. This would, obviously, be a fairly high-level ability, but then again those are what I need anyway.
  8. Blur or Mirror Image... except the only ideas for a negative effect for you I can think of would be Faerie Fire the grace-gift, and that is just a bit ridiculous.
  9. Spectral Hand for someone else to use but you take x4 damage (the hand still has the unmultiplied amount of hit-points) and the hit-points DON'T return at the end of the spell's duration.
  10. 1 or 2 point penalty to strength to cast Floating Disk on someone, penalty lasting as long as you keep the disk around? Seems a bit silly actually, but why not?
  11. Actually, better than the above would probably be an ability from first level to reduce someone's load by X by adding X to your load could be more appropriate and a good predicesor level for Carry the Burden... which would also mean that the Burden Bearer feat would move to the I list from the II list, which would be... interesting since it is one of the more "must have to get maximum mileage out of class features" feats.
  12. Antipathy (on allies only? Penalty is removing any miss chances you might have, -4 or more to all saves, AC, and SR.)
  13. Invisibility? (see above for Penalty types.)
  14. Foresight? (On others only.)
  15. Regenerate
  16. Control Weather? (Can only make NICE weather, including nil to moderate rain or snow, nil to moderate winds, no lightning, hail, sleet, or fog. Problematic thaws allowed? Can cause flooding with continuous rain?)
  17. Move Earth? (3 points of damage and 3 points of burn to BOTH Strength and Constitution. May substitute 6 points of drain to both if you wish.)
  18. Awaken? (No XP cost. 1 point penalty to INT that is cancelled only by the creature's death. Creature is rendered infertile by the spell?)
  19. Commune with Nature
  20. Quench?? (deals fire damage to you)
  21. Atonement
  22. Word of Recall? Perhaps one that CAN'T effect you...
  23. Find the Path/Discern Location (To locate allies only)
  24. Spell Immunity/Spell Immunity, Greater (you suffer the effect of each of the spells you grant immunity to in turn when you create the effect, can only have X in effect at one time. Standard 10 min/level duration.))
  25. Refuge
  26. Consecrate/Desecrate/Hallow/Unhallow? Probably not...
  27. Death Ward? Maybe 10 points of Con damage when it is activated.
  28. Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic/Break Enchantment, perhaps using the lower of Diplomacy and Heal for anything with the [Mind Affecting] tag... or maybe just straight Diplomacy. Perhaps Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law's ability to auto-succeeded against spells with alignments opposed to yours (pick one such alignment when you get the ability?)
  29. Remove Curse replicating ability, similar to the above.
  30. Remove Disease's ability to cure Mummy Rot and other "magical cure only" diseases with a +5 or +10 to the DC, perhaps still requiring 2 successful heal checks in a row. Or perhaps only ONE of the successes needs to be a heal check, rather than a fortitude save (note that if BOTH succeed on a given day, then it qualifies as a success as a heal check). Or maybe they BOTH have to succeed on the final day of the sequence, every day (no DC increase in this final case).
  31. Stone to Flesh?
  32. Limited Wish
  33. Heal
  34. Miracle (not Wish, because that is Arcane).

Gift of Mobility(Su): A Grace-gift of at least 3rd level may accept 2 points of ability score damage, distributed as they choose between strength and dexterity to cast Remove Paralysis.

For longer-term paralysis, alternate uses of the heal skill would seem more appropriate. One or two round limit on the ability score damage method?


Gift of Bravery: (1st level ability) Cast Remove Fear, but perhaps without the save bonus (that is what Gift of Protection is supposed to be for). 1 point of charisma damage? Permanent duration that inflicts 1 or 2 point charisma penalty as long as it is in effect?

(Do something with Remove Curse?)


Toughened by Hardship(Ex): ((This ability will be added if this class is deemed to be too M.A.D.)).
Spoiler


Never a Burden(Sp):
Spoiler

Related feats:
Adaptable Traveler [Grace-Gift]((Formerly known as "Good Traveling Companion".))
"Oh, I won't be any trouble to you, I promise!"
Prerequisites: Never a Burden class feature.
Benefits: You gain an additional way you can use your Never a Burden class feature. You must meet the level requirements of the ability selected.
Special: A character with at least ? levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Walker of Strange Roads [Grace-Gift]
You adapt well to even the most odd and unplanned of circumstances.
Prerequisites: Never a Burden class feature.
Benefits: You may prepare an additional set of Never a Burden abilities. You may not prepare the same option more than once.
Special: A character with at least ? levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Traveling Companion [Grace-Gift]
"He's with me."
Prerequisites: Never a Burden class feature that grants at least one spell that can ordinarily target more than one target.
Benefits: (Allows multi-targetting of Never a Burden spells. Creatures targeted with any such spell may not be used as a focus for 48 hours after the end of the duration of such a spell. Maybe share spells that can't normally multi-target with one creature, can change which creature with a 24 hour ritual? Gain 2 additional creatures each extra time you take this feat?)
Special: A character with at least ? levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Gift of Body(Sp):((I should probably add this instead of the mid-to-high range bonus feats))
Spoiler


Gift of Mind(Sp): ((If I add this it should be in place of one of the high-level bonus feats)).
Spoiler


Gift of Sleep (Sp): ((Fairly flavorful, but not really very useful, give this at first or second level.))
Spoiler


Assume Concentration (Sp):((cf Aiming at the Target and Finding the Center from Complete Arcane))
Spoiler


Come and Eat! (Sp):
Spoiler


Helping Hand
1+/day
Astral Hospice 1+/day
Something approximating a single-target Status, Greater 1+/day. Subtract 10 or so from grace-gift level to determine what spell-like grace-gift abilities can be used and what their strengths are for level-based effects. These always target a single character only.


Allow "Martial Stance(Intercepting Arrow Kata)" as a bonus feat at level 13? Probably not... requires the use of a weapon they don't start out as proficient with to use well, requires attack rolls, doesn't have any element of self-sacrifice and... just doesn't fit as well as it did at first glance. Still I could be talked into it (including by myself).

Auxiliary table to maybe add (Don't think I am doing anything with the iteratives, so I can probably remove those, but it is easier to remove them than to add them back in, so I am going to wait on that.):
Spoiler


A different one focused on Defensive Strike/Enhanced Defensive Strike
LevelAlternate Attack BonusDamage Bonus Damage Types
1st
+1
+1
-
2nd
+2
+2
-
3rd
+3
+3
Magic
4th
+4
+4
Magic
5th
+5
+5
Magic
6th
+6/+1
+9
Magic
7th
+7/+2
+10
Magic + 1 Option
8th
+8/+3
+12
Magic + 1 Option
9th
+9/+4
+13
Magic + 1 Option
10th
+10/+5
+20
Magic + 1 Option
11th
+11/+6/+1
+22
Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option
12th
+12/+7/+2
+24
Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option
13th
+13/+8/+3
+26
Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option
14th
+14/+9/+4
+28
Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option
15th
+15/+10/+5
+30
Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+48
Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+51
Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+54
Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+57
Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+60
Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
Consider add an extra thing to let you pick cold iron, silver, or byhesk(sp?) level materials as a separate option in addition to everything you get above?

Was considering adding Handle Animal to the class skill list, but now I can't think why.


Gift of Vision(Sp):
Spoiler


Preservation(Su):
Spoiler


Gift of Voice(Sp):
Spoiler


Gift of Immunity(Sp):
Spoiler


High-level Gift of Time option that freezes you in place (even in mid-air?) but you can still be injured, auto-fail all reflex saves, can even be coup-de-graced. Can't be moved from spot without tearing you to pieces/crushing you to death against the force holding you in place. This lasts 4 rounds. At the end of the 2nd round you pick one ally (not requiring LoS since you can't turn your head) to receive a 3 round Time Stop. This is the ONLY action you may undertake for those 4 rounds. This is at-will. ((Going to be FUN seeing what actual uses the non-munchkin power-gamers can come up with for this one!))


"Hello, my name is Mother Nightingale, this is my hospital. If you come to visit, or to receive treatment or instruction, then welcome indeed. If you come here to offer violence to any, then I will refer you to the list I have posted by the door of those I have added to the patient list in the past."
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 04-11-2013 at 01:46 PM.
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 05:38 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
motionmatrix
Dwarf in the Playground
 
OldWizardGuy
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

All right, assuming I do not get interrupted, this is my attempt at giving you a proper critique. ^.^

*The Fluff is good, I get what the class is all about.

*Monk starting gold is 5d4 (12 gp, 5 sp average)

Spoiler


*

Saving Throws

*OMG! those saves are great, I better see something to make sense of them later on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The Grace-gift is proficient with one type of simple melee weapon. They are proficient with neither armor nor shields.
*If you are going to give them the choice of only one weapon, I would probably give them the choice of a simple or martial one. The idea being that no matter how bad the situation is, they can only reliably use one weapon. Any situation were they need a weapon and its not the one they took, they are screwed. And yes, I am taking into consideration the fact that they are really not meant to be offensive.

Bonus Feats

*To many I do not know off the top of my head to give you a full comment, but I did recognize many and got an idea of what you were going with. I would not penalize a character that grabs combat reflexes with their regular feats before it is available as a class feat, since it hurts multiclassing into the Grace-Gift.

I do not know if you have the ability to give feats to others (it seems to be in theme here), if you do, consider expanding the feat selection and limiting what the Grace-gift can do with them.

Divine Protection

* its a supernatural ability that can technically be used endlessly, let it be dispel-able. Since this is the only true AC the class has, I would increase the bonus gained every 5 levels to 2 or even 3. If done, I would also add a limitation on how much AC can be given to any particular target. You also do not state if I could conceivably have it running on more than one target at a time, as long as i take the time to activate it and keep within range.



BAH, my SO is driving me crazy, I will continue tomorrow morning.
__________________
My Homebrew stuff

[3.5/Pathfinder] Wizard Feats

[3.P] Base Class: Protector
motionmatrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 08:23 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

Overall thoughts: Shame you didn't get through 1st level (to 3rd level would have been even better), or you would (hopefully) see how I tried to tie the class together thematically. Note that the upgrades to the abilities gained at 1st through 3rd level show this, not merely the specific versions of those abilities that a 3rd level character gets... basically this class is about two or three things right now:
First, getting a marvelous suite of defenses and then giving them away. Related to this are some abilities that let you give a team-mate an ability they don't normally have (flight, ability to survive without air, etc) at a cost to yourself.
AoOs that protect your comrades.

I may also add an ability to take de-buffs off of your allies and put them on yourself (haven't even written a rough draft of this).

Then there is "Never a Burden", which I am thinking of adding, but let's not get into THAT for the moment, since it is a very complicated ability to consider the ramifications of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
All right, assuming I do not get interrupted, this is my attempt at giving you a proper critique. ^.^

*The Fluff is good, I get what the class is all about.

*Monk starting gold is 5d4 (12 gp, 5 sp average)

Spoiler
*

Saving Throws

*OMG! those saves are great, I better see something to make sense of them later on.
Oh, you will... 1st level ability: Gift of Resistance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post



*If you are going to give them the choice of only one weapon, I would probably give them the choice of a simple or martial one. The idea being that no matter how bad the situation is, they can only reliably use one weapon. Any situation were they need a weapon and its not the one they took, they are screwed. And yes, I am taking into consideration the fact that they are really not meant to be offensive.
They are meant to be highly effective melee-ists actually... but ONLY while making certain types of AoOs. The abilities that make this possible are "Defensive Strike" and "Enhanced Defensive Strike"... which would be a single ability except that some of the abilities are Extraordinary, and some are Supernatural. The idea here was to make them as horrible as possible at attacking outside of that bailiwick, to keep them from even THINKING about becoming a CoDzilla by focusing on offensive stuff. Probably not necessary, but I also like the idea from a "the crunch supporting the fluff" perspective of them being as weak as a commoner offensively...until someone tries to aim a spell at their friend, or rush past them to get at the squishy mage or rogue.

Basically, unless they drop a feat for spiked chain proficiency at 2nd level or later, or dip barbarian, how their attacks resolve is supposed to be very much a "sit back and let the class take care of it, you just worry about setting it up so you GET those attacks, or intimidate the enemy into not doing things because they are afraid of your AoOs". Making sure those attacks happen is why feats like Lesser Mage-Bane (see the end, it is specific to the class), Combat Reflexes, Blocker, and Improved Blocker are on their feats list... I guess I DO give the "Energized Defensive Strike" feat, but that is mostly about stopping trolls, or stuff with large amounts of sufficiently obscure DR... actually, now that I think about it, that feat doesn't seem much worth taking... maybe for subdual damage if you are really trying to play up the "I don't want to see ANYONE hurt" angle (Heh... that reminds me... Vow of Peace might be broken with this class... don't own the Book of Exalted Deeds, so I don't actually know).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post

Bonus Feats

*To many I do not know off the top of my head to give you a full comment, but I did recognize many and got an idea of what you were going with. I would not penalize a character that grabs combat reflexes with their regular feats before it is available as a class feat, since it hurts multiclassing into the Grace-Gift.
I actually want to discourage dipping grace-gift for 1 or 2 levels if at all possible. It is WAY too good on saves and feats given otherwise... OTOH a 1 level dip into Barbarian (including starting with a barbarian level and then going grace-gift) is fine by me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
I do not know if you have the ability to give feats to others (it seems to be in theme here), if you do, consider expanding the feat selection and limiting what the Grace-gift can do with them.
Nope, feats are one of the few things they CAN'T share with others (even in my expanded concept of the class).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post

Divine Protection

* its a supernatural ability that can technically be used endlessly, let it be dispel-able. Since this is the only true AC the class has, I would increase the bonus gained every 5 levels to 2 or even 3. If done, I would also add a limitation on how much AC can be given to any particular target.
Nah, if I want to give them an AC boost I'll give them a warlock's ability to not take ASF from light armor (accidentally said medium in my comment in the middle of the class).

At low levels they are in the top rank for AC against touch attacks. Then you have the option to take Improved Toughness, Stone Power (take penalties to attack rolls to get DR I think), Dodge, or MAYBE Diehard... all of which do something to shore up their hp-based defenses. I would also mention the Touch of the Grace-Gift feat, but I realized that I successfully nerfed it into uselessness in that particular aspect.

At high levels low AC isn't one of the big problems with the monk (which is where I stole the progression from) and they have both a larger HD, better saves (all good in both cases, but Grace-gifts throw Divine Grace on top of it), and the ability to use a reach weapon to try to stay a BIT back from the danger zone, if they even feel the need to be close enough to a melee-threat enemy to attack it the first place (enemy spell-casters they like to remain in range of at low levels, or if they take the "Lesser Mage-Bane" feat I made for them).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
You also do not state if I could conceivably have it running on more than one target at a time, as long as i take the time to activate it and keep within range.
As it currently stands the only way that would be possible would be if it was dispelled and you used a standard or move action to restore it, with a swift action either before or after to transfer to a second target. Even that would take a fairly cheesy reading of the rules to keep going for more than the one round afterward (or a lot of dispelling). I can maybe try to tighten up the wording on that, but...

I should maybe make it explicitly possible (at least at higher levels) to share partially with two or more allies, but I don't think that is usually going to be the preferred option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
BAH, my SO is driving me crazy, I will continue tomorrow morning.
Ok! I look forward to it.
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 03-27-2012 at 02:59 PM.
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 10:53 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
motionmatrix
Dwarf in the Playground
 
OldWizardGuy
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

Gift of Resistance:

*My main issue with this ability is the same I see so far: you penalize yourself to grant allies benefits. The problem is that the class gives the equivalent buffs that any other class capable of granting benefits (assuming the proper abilities/spells) but hurts itself in the process. Where is the benefit, as a player, for me to pick this over a party buff oriented cleric? (other than rp opportunities)

This class is meant to be somewhat close to the action. As such, you will probably need what you are giving away, such as save bonuses. (this could possibly be a moot point by some other ability you have written already)

Gift of Shielding:

*I would grant at another level (15th, I assume) the ability to use Gift of Shielding as an immediate action.

Swift to protect:

*The thought was not finished, not sure if you forgot to go back or just didn't get to it.

Defensive Strike:

*Cool, I like it. meshes well with the Blocker feat line.

Life Saver:

*I always hate how heal is used in this game, being practically useless. So I find it interesting that you find some kind of actual use. Take this a step further, and allow him to use the skill to actually heal hit points and other conditions it normally cannot. And speed up the process. I only say this since I have not seen an actual way to restore hp and that would seem to fit.

Divine Grace:

*two levels is enough that people will not dip for this, there is no need to cap it, specially since its going to be given away anyways.

Helpful:

*again, I really like it, increase the bonus to aid another eventually. It is one more rule that most players overlook.

Courage:

*interesting, although it seems a bit odd to weaken an ability (immunity to fear) that is not really uncommon, nor very powerful.


Okie, it is bed time. I will try to swing by tomorrow morning.
__________________
My Homebrew stuff

[3.5/Pathfinder] Wizard Feats

[3.P] Base Class: Protector
motionmatrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2012, 01:58 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Gift of Resistance:

*My main issue with this ability is the same I see so far: you penalize yourself to grant allies benefits. The problem is that the class gives the equivalent buffs that any other class capable of granting benefits (assuming the proper abilities/spells) but hurts itself in the process. Where is the benefit, as a player, for me to pick this over a party buff oriented cleric? (other than rp opportunities)
If the buffs they are giving aren't better than what the cleric can give then I am not giving them enough variety/strength. Of course, we have to correct for the fact that the cleric has to predict what he is going to do, both in what he prepares and what he casts before battle starts. The Grace-gift on the other hand is much much more adaptable, within the range of abilities he has (which I can expand, as long as the themes of the class are adhered to).

The whole "nerf yourself to buff your allies" was the core idea of the class from the beginning... the whole AoO thing was just a side-line I tacked on.

Might go ahead and give them the light armor ability of the Warlock, and/or allow Gift of Protection to multi-target at later levels.

How much do you think the multi-target function of some of the abilities helps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
This class is meant to be somewhat close to the action. As such, you will probably need what you are giving away, such as save bonuses. (this could possibly be a moot point by some other ability you have written already)
No, no, that is the major theme of the class. Striking that delicate balance. The penalties for some things get smaller with later levels, and you get more options, but that is the concept I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post

Gift of Shielding:

*I would grant at another level (15th, I assume) the ability to use Gift of Shielding as an immediate action.
EDIT: Done
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post

Swift to protect:

*The thought was not finished, not sure if you forgot to go back or just didn't get to it.
Oh... good catch! There IS an ability I didn't want them using in combination with this ability, but it isn't one I have added yet. It is called "GET OFF OF HIM!". I am still trying to figure out if it is too much of a divergence from the theme. It basically gives Whirlwind Attack(and improved versions of it at later levels) but with more strict limitations on the targetting (each target must have at least one ally within their reach).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post

Defensive Strike:

*Cool, I like it. meshes well with the Blocker feat line.
Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post


Life Saver:

*I always hate how heal is used in this game, being practically useless. So I find it interesting that you find some kind of actual use. Take this a step further, and allow him to use the skill to actually heal hit points and other conditions it normally cannot. And speed up the process. I only say this since I have not seen an actual way to restore hp and that would seem to fit.
The heal skill CAN technically be used to give hitpoints back... just not the way you are thinking... look up "Provide Long-term care"... speaking of which, I need to modify this skill to allow taking 10 on such checks... and on caltrop, spike stones, etc. Those are all DC 15, so it is useful at low levels (which is where I will be giving it).

Might let them double the rate of healing if they score a 25 on a long-term care check. Sounds weak, but for characters recovering from having a non-constitution score dropped to 0, it saves several days.

Also might give some flavor bonuses to the number of people they can provide long-term care for.

As for what you suggest... thanks, but no thanks. I like to keep mundane healing slow thank-you-very-much. If they want to heal hit-point damage they can use one of their class feats for Touch of the Grace-Gift.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Divine Grace:

*two levels is enough that people will not dip for this, there is no need to cap it, specially since its going to be given away anyways.
This particular amount can't be given away... only BASE saves can be given away. That might not have been exactly what you meant, so I can deal with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Helpful:

*again, I really like it, increase the bonus to aid another eventually. It is one more rule that most players overlook.
eh.... maybe a LITTLE increase at higher levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Courage:

*interesting, although it seems a bit odd to weaken an ability (immunity to fear) that is not really uncommon, nor very powerful.
Stacking fear effects can get NASTY I hear... but that is beside the point. I didn't nerf it (and it is a pretty mild nerf actually) for balance sake, I nerfed it for the flavor of the thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Okie, it is bed time. I will try to swing by tomorrow morning.
Ok!
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 01-29-2012 at 04:07 PM.
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 02:11 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
motionmatrix
Dwarf in the Playground
 
OldWizardGuy
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

In reference of the Heal skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
As for what you suggest... thanks, but no thanks. I like to keep mundane healing slow thank-you-very-much. If they want to heal hit-point damage they can use one of their class feats for Touch of the Grace-Gift.
This particular amount can't be given away... only BASE saves can be given away. That might not have been exactly what you meant, so I can deal with that.
You are right, it does heal hit points, just not in any way most players (based on my experiences) ever even think of.

I was not suggesting it should actually grant the equivalent of a cure spell, but it could conceivably give fast healing for a limited duration, and could not be affected by it again for 24 hours.

I would be likely (in fact, I have before) to include a few alchemical items that work wonder with the Heal skill, making it useful but requiring a monetary expense for nonmagical healing that actually does a visible change in combat.


I am picking up my review with "Carry the Burden"

Carry the Burden:

*The theme of "hurt me so I can help you" continues, but it now is giving me a better picture of what you want to do. I feel like you are trading the character's well being for more "flexible" powers, and it is coming together well.

The formula for range/distance is a bit convoluted, but not impossible to get over.

My main concern, is that a Grace-Gift could levitate/fly everyone up above many situations assuming they are in no immediate danger (over lava pits, as an example). Have him stand on a floating disc and hold the staff of the levitating character, now they both move up and down, forward and back. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

Toughened by Hardship:

*Why this is not a basic ability for every non casting class is beyond me, thematically it is perfect. For the Grace-Gift, considering how close they are to combat and how often they are actually in the negative of a situation, it makes a bit more sense.

*Maybe every 3 levels after whatever level they get it the first time?

Shield of the soul:

*seems kinda of harsh that you take a big penalty to your saves to give someone else the spell resistance that you are already giving up.

Enhanced Defensive Strike:

*Basic DPT enhancement for the only offense in the class. Fitting.

Gift of Breath:

* Situation, at best. You will love your Grace Gift for having it when they do, but generally, most campaigns will see little use. Maybe you would like to add an Endure Elements effect to round it out a bit? That Con damage would hurt a hell of a lot more in a frozen thundra.

Gift of Soul:

*Consider allowing it to affect spells with XP components as well; many parties do not have item making characters (personally, all my casters have several feats for it, since the dm I play with is #$%% when it comes to giving magic items).

Matchless Loyalty:

*Love the fact that it just turns it off automatically, very fitting in flavor and usefulness. Different from any other mind removal abilities, so it feels very original. And the best part is that it does not make me, as a dm, go crazy because everyone is immune to mind-effects.

Mobile Defender:

*Do not make an ability that is only really meant to work with feats. If a character does not have the feats, then it is absolutely worthless. If you still wish them to have this particular ability, then make sure they receive whatever feat before they get this. I am aware of the bonus feats, but someone might not grab it unaware of it, or simply read over. I would simply give the Blocker feat automatically to the class before level 13.

Gift of Time:

*You must be within 10 ft to use, so unless your ally moves close to you (probably not what his action would have normally been) or you happen to be next to each other, chances are the Grace-Gift's action is not going to be the only action "payed" to activate this ability.

*I have to give up my full turn to give you a move action? seems expensive, especially since I have to be 10 feet from you and now you are so far most of my abilities are useless on you.

*I have to give up my full turn to give you a swift action? What can you do with a swift action that makes this worth the expense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post

If he takes no other actions on his turn a grace-gift may grant an additional moment to act to any ally...

At Yth level this ability requires only a full-round action to use.
*What is the difference?


Feats

Energized Defensive Strike:

*Why are the elements attached to alignments? what does it actually mean in gameplay? is my weapon both Evil and Fire? Thematically, this makes the least sense. You have been really good about flavor and actual rules; seems a bit weird you would leave such a big "gray" area open for exploitation.

Touch of the Grace-Gift

*Crappy healing (compared to other support characters) that can only be obtained via feats and limits the amount that can be healed at any given time, which is a full round action to use. That is really hurtful for a class that is all about the other teammates.

*how can it heal undead or constructs? neither have constitution scores. If you wish to affect them, give the Grace-Gift a feat that "repairs" objects in a similar fashion.


Final thoughts:

I like it, although you hurt yourself so much, with such a limited range for your abilities, that it is a hard sell from a player perspective. I see the value, but a player may not see it at first glance, instead thinking they are just gluttons for punishment.

It is not helped by the fact that some abilities usefulness is dependent on feats. How are you supposed to grab any feats not meant directly for this class?

I know there is bonus feats, but it feels like you really mean to have them used on the Grace-Gift specific feats. If that is the case, and I did not misunderstand, then you are better off lowering the rate of bonus feats and make some of the feats you wrote into abilities instead. That will ensure that the class will function as intended regardless of what the player does with his feat selection.

I think the best thing you can do to make this class truly shine is enhancing the range of their abilities. You can start off with a real tight leash, requiring them to be adjacent for the first few levels (1-3), then enhancing the range of the powers.

At higher levels it is almost impossible to consistently stand near other allies for a full battle. Account for that, and give them maybe a 25 ft. or 30 ft. cap somewhere in the teen levels. It will make someone playing it still have to be very tactical of where they stand/hover/float, but not keep them attached to the hip of the fighter/barbarian/paladin (who is not the only one who can benefit from the Grace-Gift's abilities).

People are significantly more likely to stick to the class if they can use its abilities reliably. You already hurt yourself to make things happen, I think the super short range is too detrimental over the course of 20 levels.
__________________
My Homebrew stuff

[3.5/Pathfinder] Wizard Feats

[3.P] Base Class: Protector

Last edited by motionmatrix : 02-01-2012 at 10:44 AM.
motionmatrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 11:38 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

DISCLAIMER mostly, but not entirely to motionmatrix: By the time you get through reading this, I suspect you may be sick and tired of the phrase "false choice". I am not trying to taunt you with it, I am just mentioning it when it becomes relevant... which is frequently. Seems like you changed your mind on that point (which you are totally allowed to do), but since we are doing this by posts, rather than talking face to face, or even chatting on IRC, we end up repeating ourselves a lot within a given post.

Please excuse any garbles, I am pushing myself to keep moving, rather than getting bogged down waiting for the perfect words to come to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
In reference of the Heal skill.



You are right, it does heal hit points, just not in any way most players (based on my experiences) ever even think of.

I was not suggesting it should actually grant the equivalent of a cure spell, but it could conceivably give fast healing for a limited duration, and could not be affected by it again for 24 hours.
I could see myself reducing the period of rest required for long-term care. Certainly not 1 minute or less stuff, but I could see being able to do every 2 hours of rest what a "normal" healer can do every 24 hours.

Anything beyond that gets into Su/Sp instead of Ex... not that I couldn't see giving them a Su/Sp ability that is based on Heal... maybe a high level (mid level?) sequel to "Touch of the Grace-Gift" that replaces character level with heal ranks. Dumping two feats into being able to heal hitpoint damage between combats could be good. For in combat they have "Gift of Shielding"(which I think I allowed as an Immediate action at a certain level at your excellent suggestion).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
I would be likely (in fact, I have before) to include a few alchemical items that work wonder with the Heal skill, making it useful but requiring a monetary expense for nonmagical healing that actually does a visible change in combat.
Yeah, not seeing this as much of an in-battle hitpoint restorer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
I am picking up my review with "Carry the Burden"

Carry the Burden:

*The theme of "hurt me so I can help you" continues, but it now is giving me a better picture of what you want to do. I feel like you are trading the character's well being for more "flexible" powers, and it is coming together well.
Good to know!
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post

The formula for range/distance is a bit convoluted, but not impossible to get over.
Well, at least it only changes when you level up usually (or maybe when someone throws an Eagle's Splendor on you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post

My main concern, is that a Grace-Gift could levitate/fly everyone
"Everyone" would be impossible to do at one time until high levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
up above many situations assuming they are in no immediate danger (over lava pits, as an example). Have him stand on a floating disc and hold the staff of the levitating character, now they both move up and down, forward and back. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
I may need to clarify that the disk would be bearing the weight of BOTH characters. In such a case, if it can actually be done... why not? There is a pretty big disadvantage to fighting like that I should think, so it has its drawbacks.
Err... I may be misunderstanding you... by "staff" do you mean a literal quarterstaff or the like?
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post

Toughened by Hardship:

*Why this is not a basic ability for every non casting class is beyond me, thematically it is perfect. For the Grace-Gift, considering how close they are to combat and how often they are actually in the negative of a situation, it makes a bit more sense.

*Maybe every 3 levels after whatever level they get it the first time?
Yeah... but it isn't very fun to play... I would rather put in fun abilities than this. It certainly is FLAVORFUL, but I don't know that I can get in everything I want/is needed to make them less boring than a min-maxed fighter to play AND still have room for this ability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Shield of the soul:

*seems kinda of harsh that you take a big penalty to your saves to give someone else the spell resistance that you are already giving up.
That part was based around the idea that saves become less important at high levels. This assumption may be highly mistaken, to say the least. Will strike-through that part, rather than delete it, just in case someone else wants to try to talk me into putting it back in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Enhanced Defensive Strike:

*Basic DPT enhancement for the only offense in the class. Fitting.
Fair enough.... just out of curiousity, what does DPT stand for? "Damage Penetration <T-something>"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Gift of Breath:

* Situation, at best. You will love your Grace Gift for having it when they do, but generally, most campaigns will see little use.
Yeah, is the Grace-gift's equivalent to "Water-breathing". And yeah, Grace-gifts are going to end up with a lot of situational stuff. Comes with the territory of being the love-child of the Warlock's casting method and the Cleric's "I know all the spells on my list".
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Maybe you would like to add an Endure Elements effect to round it out a bit? That Con damage would hurt a hell of a lot more in a frozen thundra.
Hmm.... Endure Elements sounds good. Probably would be a separate ability, if only because the name doesn't fit. Might make it an earlier-level ability, and then put a little addendum on Gift of Breath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Gift of Soul:

*Consider allowing it to affect spells with XP components as well; many parties do not have item making characters (personally, all my casters have several feats for it, since the dm I play with is #$%% when it comes to giving magic items).
Interesting idea. I can throw that in, although it is making me more and more sure that I should include that warning that has been rattling around the back of my head trying to get my attention. Namely that GMs should think twice before allowing Grace-Gifts as Cohorts or anything of the sort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Matchless Loyalty:

*Love the fact that it just turns it off automatically, very fitting in flavor and usefulness. Different from any other mind removal abilities, so it feels very original. And the best part is that it does not make me, as a dm, go crazy because everyone is immune to mind-effects.
Yeah. It really does work out pretty well like that, doesn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Mobile Defender:

*Do not make an ability that is only really meant to work with feats. If a character does not have the feats, then it is absolutely worthless. If you still wish them to have this particular ability, then make sure they receive whatever feat before they get this.
It was your specific suggestion that lead to me replacing the static bonus feats with choices. At the time you specificly mentioned "false" choices... I took this to mean that the options had no need of being equal to eachother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
I am aware of the bonus feats, but someone might not grab it unaware of it, or simply read over. I would simply give the Blocker feat automatically to the class before level 13.
I would have to take out at least one bonus feat, and maybe two (for combat reflexes) to do this. I think I will just put in a warning at the top of the class. The idea was to keep the options open. AoOs are a sideline to the main concept of the class, and since the class gives so few character-design choices, I wanted to allow people to make a character who DOESN'T take that route. I suppose I could steal a concept from the ranger and give them "Paths" but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Gift of Time:

*You must be within 10 ft to use, so unless your ally moves close to you (probably not what his action would have normally been) or you happen to be next to each other, chances are the Grace-Gift's action is not going to be the only action "payed" to activate this ability.
The front-liner is very often going to be within 10 feet of the grace-gift. This lets said front-liner move 30ish feet and then perform a full-attack. In other words it gives the fighter Pounce (but without the charging part).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
*I have to give up my full turn to give you a move action? seems expensive, especially since I have to be 10 feet from you and now you are so far most of my abilities are useless on you.
Situational, but we are starting small.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
*I have to give up my full turn to give you a swift action? What can you do with a swift action that makes this worth the expense?
Two words: Quicken Spell.
Secondarily, ToB classes have uses for swift actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
*What is the difference?
The difference is that you get to keep your swift action, which means you can use several of your class abilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post


Feats

Energized Defensive Strike:

*Why are the elements attached to alignments? what does it actually mean in gameplay? is my weapon both Evil and Fire?
No more so than a Flaming Unholy <weapon> +1 is. Only the d6 for the flaming or the +Class Level x ? is fire. The rest is slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Thematically, this makes the least sense. You have been really good about flavor and actual rules; seems a bit weird you would leave such a big "gray" area open for exploitation.
I can try to remember to add some more fluff (although since the feat is already pretty worthless in retrospect I it isn't going to be very high on my to-do list and may slip through the cracks).
The d?+Str Modx(0.5 to 1.5)+enhancement bonus+<other things melee-ists use to boost damage> part is never affected by this.
The bonus damage from the class IS. This is an important distinction. It means that instead of just hitting supernaturally hard, your weapon is instead throwing off energy when you make most AoOs. Like a flaming weapon on steroids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Touch of the Grace-Gift

*Crappy healing (compared to other support characters) that can only be obtained via feats and limits the amount that can be healed at any given time, which is a full round action to use. That is really hurtful for a class that is all about the other teammates.
They are about PREVENTION. Giving them any HEALING (other than the mundane sort), is purely a sideline. I can take the multiplier from x2 to x4, despite the per day amount already being better than the paladin (let alone the monk). Those with CHA <12 will get (class level x2). They don't have to be able to keep up with a cleric in that department for just one feat.
Might make an improved version that removes the daily cap entirely. Out of battle healing never a problem again, for two feats? Sure, why not?... probably need a level minimum on the second one though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
*how can it heal undead or constructs? neither have constitution scores. If you wish to affect them, give the Grace-Gift a feat that "repairs" objects in a similar fashion.
Nah, I like the idea that all allies are equal for the Grace-Gift. I like the idea of a LE Grace-Gift being able to care for his Lich ally without problems (but not the skeleton minions). Ditto for a Grace-gift of any alignment being able to patch up a construct (not just living construct) ally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Final thoughts:

I like it, although you hurt yourself so much, with such a limited range for your abilities,
Yeah, but if I increased the ranges so much of the risk would go away that the class would become very boring to play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
that it is a hard sell from a player perspective.
I know this isn't quite what you meant, but this isn't supposed to be something that "sells" itself on anything other than the fact that it truly is a class without real offensive abilities. Even the AoO stuff (if one goes that route) can be avoided by just not trying to move past the Grace-gift (or by the enemy spellcasters keeping their distance, which they like to do anyway).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
It is not helped by the fact that some abilities usefulness is dependent on feats you take. With few feats to actually grab, how are you supposed to grab anything not meant directly for this class?
Are you kidding? They get one feat every level for the first four levels. The fighter is crying himself to sleep at night (which is as it should be).

The first list alone is long enough to take all your bonus feats from with 5 feats you DIDN'T take left over(and I welcome appropriate suggestions for additions to ANY of the feat lists). Granted, not all of the feats are that great, but you only asked for FALSE choice, and I gave a bit more than that. Several of those feats have maneuver requirements that are completely bypassed.

The II list isn't that short either.

The rest are single-choice, but I am very open to suggestions for additions, and, once again, picking from a lower list is NOT supposed to be a stupid idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
I know there is bonus feats, but it feels like you really mean to have some of the feats a must in order for this to work.
Mostly at the lower levels... the higher level bonus feat slots I threw in to fill dead or nearly dead levels, rather than because I had some idea of what I wanted to put there... come to that, the 1st and 2nd level pre-selected feats were Dodge and Diehard respectively. Neither of which are required to make the class work.

Again, "False Choice"... then again, a Grace-Gift with the following as his bonus feats might actually work out pretty well:
(NOT in the order you would probably take them)
Touch of the Grace-Gift
Stone Power
Improved Toughness
Evasive Reflexes
Dodge
Mobility
Burden Bearer (and depending on party composition, taking this more than once may be worth it)
Iron Will (Yes, I know it isn't NORMALLY considered a good feat, but since it allows you to be more free with sharing your saves...)
Great Fortitude(Ditto)

Of course, that leaves you with 7 NON-bonus feats, but I rather suspect the char-op threads would have some suggestions there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
If that is the case, and I did not misunderstand, then you are better off changing the rate of bonus feats and make some of them given abilities instead. That will ensure that the class will function as intended regardless of what the player does with his feat selection.
As intended? It is currently INTENDED to be fairly flexible... or at least to give the player enough rope to hang themselves with. This is NOT a class for a beginner (although it DOES fit a "casual but experienced gamer" very well.

Once again, it was at your specific suggestion I moved away from that model... perhaps it was only because you hadn't read that ability(or maybe I hadn't even written it) when you suggested "false choice, players eat that stuff up"? Also, they only get ONE ability that requires feats they might or might not have in order to use it, and that is several levels after the earliest they could get the feat. They at least get to pick whether to take it early or late.
Granted, Defensive Strike just begs for Combat Reflexes, Blocker, Lesser Mage-Slayer and maybe Improved Blocker, but only to approximately the same degree as Sneak Attack begs for the Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain.

Going to spoil the following, since it might be moving things along too fast, rather than stopping to think things through. I will try to get some other people's opinions, for balance before I start adding yet more abilities to this class.
Spoiler
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 02-01-2012 at 11:39 AM.
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:50 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
motionmatrix
Dwarf in the Playground
 
OldWizardGuy
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

Hey, I edited my previous post, it seems it happened as you were replying.
I am quoting it below.

Quote:
Final thoughts:

I like it, although you hurt yourself so much, with such a limited range for your abilities, that it is a hard sell from a player perspective. I see the value, but a player may not see it at first glance, instead thinking they are just gluttons for punishment.

It is not helped by the fact that some abilities usefulness is dependent on feats. How are you supposed to grab any feats not meant directly for this class?

I know there is bonus feats, but it feels like you really mean to have them used on the Grace-Gift specific feats. If that is the case, and I did not misunderstand, then you are better off lowering the rate of bonus feats and make some of the feats you wrote into abilities instead. That will ensure that the class will function as intended regardless of what the player does with his feat selection.

I think the best thing you can do to make this class truly shine is enhancing the range of their abilities. You can start off with a real tight leash, requiring them to be adjacent for the first few levels (1-3), then enhancing the range of the powers.

At higher levels it is almost impossible to consistently stand near other allies for a full battle. Account for that, and give them maybe a 25 ft. or 30 ft. cap somewhere in the teen levels. It will make someone playing it still have to be very tactical of where they stand/hover/float, but not keep them attached to the hip of the fighter/barbarian/paladin (who is not the only one who can benefit from the Grace-Gift's abilities).

People are significantly more likely to stick to the class if they can use its abilities reliably. You already hurt yourself to make things happen, I think the super short range is too detrimental over the course of 20 levels.
Now, just to clear up a couple of points:

*As to the feats, I am sorry I am giving you misleading advice, not only are my two points written days apart, but also my perspective on the class changes as I continue to read.

Yes, I believe that the bonus feats "false choices" are great. However, if some of the feats are truly necessary to make the class function, I would recommend that those particular ones be enforced at a certain level, or be made into a class ability.

That is not to say you must remove all the bonus feats, just give less of them and trim the list of available ones.

Of course, remember that this could all be completely invalid; I am writing this on the assumption that those feats are truly necessary.

Burden Bearer is one that comes to mind. It is going to be very situational for most of a Grace-Gift's career to use Carry the Burden if he does not take the feat at least once.

That said, I will concede that you are correct on the amount of feats, there are many. Players will find more than one way to make the class work.

I guess I counter-argued myself because I got caught up on the fact that a player may not be able to make the class function as a result of wrong feat selection (which I have seen happen).

*As to the levitate ability, I meant moving one pc at a time. That is why I specified "no immediate danger".

Yes, I meant a regular quarterstaff. The person on the floating disk pushes forward/backward while the person levitating pulls the staff, and therefore the disk, up and down.

It is a perfectly valid combo, I just wanted to make sure you were aware that players can skip many non-combat situations and even non flying combat situations if using this combo correctly.

No need to clarify weight and disc: the character has the weight of his levitating friends on himself as defined by the ability, the disc has a limited amount of weight it can carry. This ability makes the disc even more useful, since all the weight is on one character, taking up only a 5ft. square.

*DPT= Damage Per Turn

*Yeah, I would not allow cohorts to be Grace-Gifts, that is super cheese, especially if they donate xp to spells.

*keeping your swift action is a big difference.

*Why don't you remove the evil and good descriptors from the elements, and make them elements on their own right? So you could conceivably have a holy weapon when you use your AoO, or fire, if you so desire.

*yeah, Quicken could really be a problem.
__________________
My Homebrew stuff

[3.5/Pathfinder] Wizard Feats

[3.P] Base Class: Protector
motionmatrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 11:37 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

Hope I am thinking straight here... apologies in advance if I am not.

Regarding your edits in the section you quoted:'
Yeah, the sort of player I am aiming at will at least give it a second look because it is such a novel concept and he WANTS it to be playable, even if he doesn't think it is at first. On that deeper look it will show that it IS playable.

Yeah, I guess I can "lengthen the leash" but I was under the general impression that 30ish feet back was where the squishy wizards liked to hang out at, even at higher levels... I guess that makes no sense, since they would want to be "charging range of the fastest enemy, plus its reach, plus 5 feet... at least" if possible (such as with outdoor encounters. Of course "close enough to the DPT guy that he can charge anything that is in melee with me that snuck up behind us invisible or just has crazy ranks in Hide" is also good.
Ok, I think I talked myself into it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Hey, I edited my previous post, it seems it happened as you were replying.
I am quoting it below.



Now, just to clear up a couple of points:

*As to the feats, I am sorry I am giving you misleading advice, not only are my two points written days apart, but also my perspective on the class changes as I continue to read.
Not a problem, and it isn't like I couldn't archive the list of bonus feats in whole or in part and try to put everything back the way it was before.

However, the idea I was working from after your comment was always that there wouldn't BE any "mandatory" feats. Even the enhancement to the Blocker feat was in my mind made into "here is something for you if you decide to develop the AoO side, if not, then ignore it".
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Yes, I believe that the bonus feats "false choices" are great. However, if some of the feats are truly necessary to make the class function, I would recommend that those particular ones be enforced at a certain level, or be made into a class ability.
EDIT:Yeah, I don't know if I managed to make my disclaimer clear enough. Basically, you didn't do anything in the least problematic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
That is not to say you must remove all the bonus feats, just give less of them and trim the list of available ones.
EDIT: Eh, I think a "How to play a Grace-gift" Guide section would be more to my taste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Of course, remember that this could all be completely invalid; I am writing this on the assumption that those feats are truly necessary.
EDIT: I'm still not sure if they are or they aren't necessary to avoid severely weakening the class. I hope they aren't. I have a third set of eyes coming in to look at things. More specifically, I asked Bhu, and he said he would comment as soon as he managed to get through reading the class(since it is pretty long).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Burden Bearer is one that comes to mind. It is going to be very situational for most of a Grace-Gift's career to use Carry the Burden if he does not take the feat at least once.
EDIT: Not sure either way about this one. I have my reasons for thinking that this is not the case, but I could be very wrong.

Not really seeing that...
The class is limited to light armor and no shield in general (although I think a mithril shield should make sense for them, as it should for wizards, since you can get the ACP and ASF both down to zero... you don't even need proficiency with it at that point), and I don't THINK any of the weapons they work well with (Spear of some sort, or spiked chain if they drop a feat for it so they can go AoO crazy) weigh THAT much.
If you don't dumpstat strength(IE put at least a 12 in it), are medium sized and with no racial strength penalty, then the Small party members (especially gnomes, or, getting outside the PHB, kobolds) from the d4 and d6 hit-die classes are someone you can keep the ability on and maybe not even go over your light load. Maybe around 8th level you can spring for a Belt of Strength +2 (already having the Cloak of Charisma +4 and maybe Constitution and Dexterity boosters on the +2 level).
Come to that, enlarge person becomes a very tasty buff for you since it increases your reach for AoOs, and I THINK it actually DOES affect your carrying capacity based on your new size. It is a 1st level spell with a 1 minute/CL duration... your Small arcanist friend will gladly swap you it in return for the Fly effect you give him for the duration. You turn from a speed bump into a roadblock (although mostly from the reach, since you arguably don't need the damage bonuses as much, and it doesn't give a net to-hit bonus). Oh, look, I just noticed that you can Permanency that spell... isn't that nice! Why, you can even pay the 500 XPs yourself(once I edit that addition in)! Sure it can get dispelled, but it isn't going to happen THAT often, and if you are worried about it you can get a magic item for that. Shoot, have the squishy permanency a Reduce Person on himself while you are at it... he can use the AC, and it isn't like he is going to be winning any grapple checks anyway.

This is D&D, smaller allies aren't just light enough to carry, they are light enough to use as improvised throwing weapons (It is a minor tradition actually)... or so ran my thinking.

Anyone of your own size class... yeah, you are probably wanting that feat (or some size increasing and strength-boosting magics).

((EDIT: Based on actual character-build, it seems like size increases and/or one or two instances of the feat are needed if you want to stay within light load even for small party members in light or no armor.))
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
That said, I will concede that you are correct on the amount of feats, there are many. Players will find more than one way to make the class work.
Yeah... before you told me to get rid of fixed feats (and I am mostly noting this down before my memory fades more that it already has) I THINK the list of feats it gave was:
Dodge
Die Hard
Combat Reflexes
Blocker
Improved Blocker
Burden Bearer (This was a class ability at the time).

The first two of those are generally considered to be sub-optimal. Which gives you a grand total of 4 feats that most people would THINK would matter at first glance (then again they help a Grace-gift more than most other classes I think).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
I guess I counter-argued myself because I got caught up on the fact that a player may not be able to make the class function as a result of wrong feat selection (which I have seen happen).
Yeah, I/we can put in a "Very strong suggestions for novice players" section with a big warning "IT IS POSSIBLE TO TOTALLY BORK YOURSELF DURING CHARACTER CREATION WITH THIS CLASS" followed by stuff along the lines of "Less experienced players are recommended to take the Blocker feat by level X, otherwise you will be letting a perfectly good class feature go to waste." and "If you are playing a character of a smaller size-class than your party, you may become dependent on size-increasing magic to be able to use your Carry the Burden class feature with even marginal effectiveness unless you take the Burden Bearer feat at least once." I'm fine with that, and like making stuff that rewards players in proportion to how intelligently they develop the character, and ESPECIALLY how creatively and sharply they PLAY the character in each strategic/tactical situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
*As to the levitate ability, I meant moving one pc at a time. That is why I specified "no immediate danger".
*Nods*
Don't THINK this is a BIG problem for me, since it means that the wizard (or even more-so the sorcerer) has to actually learn floating disk, which is otherwise considered a pretty lame spell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
Yes, I meant a regular quarterstaff. The person on the floating disk pushes forward/backward while the person levitating pulls the staff, and therefore the disk, up and down.
I thought that Floating Disk always remained at waist height or something?
*Looks*
It is limited to 3 feet of altitude above a surface (water and lava probably count).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
It is a perfectly valid combo, I just wanted to make sure you were aware that players can skip many non-combat situations and even non flying combat situations if using this combo correctly.
Meh... MIGHT need to remove the third level version of the ability, but... shoot, the class has a strictly limited number of options, and I don't feel like cutting into their fun at low levels.
Also, I don't think the disk trick works in 3.X for skipping encounters. Using one Fly spell to shuttle the entirety of the party? Yeah, that will let you skip some encounters, and if the Grace-Gift has to take a few d8s of damage to get the hulking barbarian into the air long enough... it is probably less than the encounter would have dealt to the party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
No need to clarify weight and disc: the character has the weight of his levitating friends on himself as defined by the ability, the disc has a limited amount of weight it can carry. This ability makes the disc even more useful, since all the weight is on one character, taking up only a 5ft. square.

*DPT= Damage Per Turn
Ah... yeah, read this, and I think I even used it earlier in this post, having read it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
*Yeah, I would not allow cohorts to be Grace-Gifts, that is super cheese, especially if they donate xp to spells.
Note to self: Make a note of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
*keeping your swift action is a big difference.
Right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
*Why don't you remove the evil and good descriptors from the elements, and make them elements on their own right? So you could conceivably have a holy weapon when you use your AoO, or fire, if you so desire.
Because then they might run out of options?
I could see letting Lawful/Chaotic GG's get access to Cold Iron/Silver (may have gotten those mis-matched, like Halley, I always get those confused), although that might be best as its own feat (and perhaps as a choice you can give up adamintine to get).
Quote:
Originally Posted by motionmatrix View Post
*yeah, Quicken could really be a problem.
You would think that, wouldn't you?
Quicken itself can get pretty Hax, but my logic here, in this specific case is that it is actually less of a problem than if you were an arcanist yourself.
Granted, the ability to "transform" from a Defender into a Striker/Controller at will is pretty boss, but... I think it is justified and perhaps less powerful than the "Gift of Mind" feature I was considering.
Eh... will have to think about it.
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 04-19-2013 at 10:59 AM.
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2012, 04:17 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

Have made a few small edits to this, but they pushed it over the character limit. Rather than starting a new thread I am moving some stuff down here for the moment. Note that this includes the rough change-log.



Partial Change log:
Spoiler


Behind the scenes/analysis:
Spoiler
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 06-23-2012 at 12:36 PM.
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2012, 09:03 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

Bump due to having added a bunch of stuff, including Hands of the Healer, and several feats since the last time I bumped.
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2012, 11:26 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

Bump due to adding a bunch of stuff, including even MORE class-specific feats, and a revivification ability. (And Kane0 expressed an interest in seeing the class, so I wanted to be sure he could comment if he had anything to say, without fearing to be performing thread necromancy.)

Gift of Vision will almost certainly be added eventually. Gift of Skill probably will be. Never A Burden would be a... large undertaking.

Due to character-count issues I will probably be making a new thread for this sooner or later.
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 06-22-2012 at 11:28 PM.
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2012, 01:02 AM   Top  -  End  -  #17
Kane0
Barbarian in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: 
Waterdeep
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

Woah, now this is a beefy class.

As an initial suggestion, that table you have rolled a 20 on its intimidate check, you may want to see if there is a way to water it down. Being difficult to digest is the single biggest killer of a brew thread in my experience Splitting the special section into Special (himself) and Special (for others) would be a good move, then trying to condense what is in the brackets to only show what isn't outlined in the class feature description itself.

Apart form that, I really like the feel of the class. It may prove difficult to keep this guy alive if targeted, especially when he takes all those penalties to provide his buffs, but hey thats the price for providing all those juicy benefits to almost anybody in the group (in an ever-expanding range).

Actually, come to think of it you may be flooding the player with options. You have given so many nice things to choose from that many players may well end up taking a long time to make their turns, and everyone knows how frustrating that can be. Also be careful of players attempting to use all these nice benefits on themselves. Some wacky shenanigan utilizing Familiars or somesuch comes to mind.

The individual abilities you have here all seem fine and relatively balanced, only playtesting can work out some kinks.

Hope this helps
__________________
Roll for it.

My Homebrewer's Extended Signature
Commonly Corrected Classes Compendium
If my homebrew threads are closed, please dont hesitate to send me PMs, even if it just to let me know you like it.
Awesome avatar by Ceika.
Kane0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2012, 01:48 AM   Top  -  End  -  #18
DracoDei
Ettin in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 
Near Atlanta,GA USA
Gender: Male
Default Re: (3.5) (Class) The Grace-Gift, now with OPTIONS! (P.E.A.C.H)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
Woah, now this is a beefy class.
Yeah, since it is reactionary it has to have as many different responses as possible to make sure it is rarely standing around in combat being useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
As an initial suggestion, that table you have rolled a 20 on its intimidate check, you may want to see if there is a way to water it down. Being difficult to digest is the single biggest killer of a brew thread in my experience Splitting the special section into Special (himself) and Special (for others) would be a good move,
Interesting idea... the problem is that many abilities straddle the two, being "Here is something nice... and here is how you pay it forward by giving it away."

What I HAD considered doing is splitting it up by "spell levels", but since I am purposely trying to spread things out to the even-numbered levels too, that doesn't really help much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
then trying to condense what is in the brackets to only show what isn't outlined in the class feature description itself.
Maybe good for reducing intimidation. Very bad for leveling up when you have to re-read every ability you have gotten so far to see if it has gotten an upgrade, thus why I put the upgrades in the table as much as possible... maybe two tables, one for reviewing, and one for leveling up in actual play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
Apart form that, I really like the feel of the class. It may prove difficult to keep this guy alive if targeted, especially when he takes all those penalties to provide his buffs,
To be fair I DID give them a lot of redundant stuff... reflex saves are USUALLY about reducing hit-point damage... but they also have all good saves and divine grace.

But yes, a large facet of this class at the start was to make something where you can be an effective party member in combat if you just manage to stay alive. It ended up evolving (for the better) into something more than that in-as-much as you also have to decide what your are going to do that round to help your team, but yes, just staying alive is hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
but hey thats the price for providing all those juicy benefits to almost anybody in the group (in an ever-expanding range).
Sounds like I am doing it right!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
Actually, come to think of it you may be flooding the player with options. You have given so many nice things to choose from that many players may well end up taking a long time to make their turns, and everyone knows how frustrating that can be.
Yeah, this class is very much for someone who knows basic game mechanics like the back of their hand and can find the winning trade-offs fairly easily, thus collapsing a whole bunch of options down to 2 or 3 that are actually in the running for being the best possible idea very quickly.

And they STILL don't have as many options as a freshly prepared wizard...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
Also be careful of players attempting to use all these nice benefits on themselves. Some wacky shenanigan utilizing Familiars or somesuch comes to mind.
Yeah, I know... when I figure out each shenanigan I will counter it... might head over to the char-op threads at some point and see what people can do with it.

EDIT: One fairly obvious one, Grace-Gifts as cohorts, I already negated, albeit in a rather crude manner. I'm not going to tweak the mechanics of the class to fight it, although I MIGHT go so far as to phrase it as a RULE along the lines of "Selecting a Grace-Gift as a follower or cohort requires special permission from the GM."... OH! Actually typing this out made me think, one mechanical way to nix it would be "A follower with one or more levels of grace-gift counts as one level higher for the purposes of the Leadership feat, and a Grace-Gift cohort counts as two levels higher than their actual level. Thus a character normally eligible to have a 6th level cohort could, instead, select a 4th level grace-gift. Followers and cohort grace-gifts do not have the Gift of Soul ability."

EDIT^2: Of course, for MOST of these, unless you somehow grant your familiar to be the SOURCE of the spells... which a cheesy reading of Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability or the Deliver Touch Spells familiar ability combined with something that lets you treat divine SLAs as wizard spells for those purposes (easier with Deliver Touch Spells) might let you do... anyway, without that factor they are net effect zero since the penalty the caster takes is equal to or greater than the bonus granted. The SR and 20th level save bonuses come to mind as exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
The individual abilities you have here all seem fine and relatively balanced, only playtesting can work out some kinks.
Playtest campaign is running, but since we haven't hit combat yet, so far I have just been "That guy with maxed ranks in the heal skill."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
Hope this helps
It does!

EDIT: A better way to split up the table would probably be "Out of Combat Abilities" and "Combat and Mixed Abilities", with the caveat that even the out of combat abilities are technically usable/active in combat.
__________________
Best homebrew:
Grace-Gift - Taking "Defender" to a whole other level.
Falling Anvil Discipline - Loony Slapstick as a Martial Art, Mepholk - Snuggly skunk-people. , Wing Dragon Masters of flight Comment HERE, Organ Undead Mega-Thread, including two new organs!
Filk: 4000 Years(to live) . . . . For everything else see: Full list of Homebrew.
My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

Last edited by DracoDei : 06-25-2012 at 09:37 AM.
DracoDei is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:38 PM.



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Usage of this site, including but not limited to making or editing a post or private message or the creation of an account, constitutes acceptance of the Forum Rules.